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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Spanish repertoire (Read 216630 times)
Ametanoitos
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #495 - 01/14/16 at 13:16:13
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 01/14/16 at 06:16:44:
Simply put. Vague oneliners and talk about intuition is often not enough to convince people.


A classic mistake on the internet. "People" in this community haven't selected you as their representative. It is much fine to say "I am not convinced if i don't see some sample analysis", (i have said this type of thing several times in this foroum) but talking on behalf of others is usually not.
  
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #494 - 01/14/16 at 06:16:44
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Hello.

I checked the 17.Bd2 move from my last pgn (post #483). The idea of the move is to put the bishop on it's probable best square and when black drives it away with e3, to try and win the e3 pawn at some point. It seems though that against the likely best way forward for black (Stefan Bücker's line from reply #487), white does not seem to have much.

If white takes the pawn quite early he can enter some rook versus bishop endgames but they all look very holdable.



Ametanoitos wrote on 01/13/16 at 07:08:33:
You have the right of course not to take seriously my opinion, but you have to know that there is something called "intuition" and this has some value. Optically this position simply doesn't look nice for White as a main choice for a repertoire. It might be viable for a single game if you analyse it rather deeply. I analysed it a bit and found Black to be fine, but didn't want to start a big discussion about moves and variations because simply it doesn't look right (the line i mean)

Simply put. Vague oneliners and talk about intuition is often not enough to convince people.

As you allude to you have analysed a bit. This is good. If you don't want to publish analysis it is very much ok.



Have a nice day.
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #493 - 01/13/16 at 15:56:28
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Ametanoitos wrote on 01/13/16 at 14:58:17:
Regarding the exact source, i am afraid not! Can you offer some help? Smiley

No, sorry. I had mentioned the puzzle in another thread. That's why I was asking you. Two dates are given in the literature, 1910 and 1911, no source.
  
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Ametanoitos
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #492 - 01/13/16 at 14:58:17
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Yes, that was the game.

Regarding the exact source, i am afraid not! Can you offer some help? Smiley
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #491 - 01/13/16 at 11:16:10
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Ametanoitos wrote on 01/13/16 at 07:08:33:
As far as 4.d3 is concerned we had some analysis in a line which later was seen in a Caruana- Nakamura game [...]

This one?


Ametanoitos wrote on 01/13/16 at 07:08:33:
Breyer: In the book i wrote and it at the printer as i post this (out in a few weeks and before the end of the month at Forward Chess), [...]

Have you been able to find the exact source where Breyer recommended Nc6-b8?  Smiley
  
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Ametanoitos
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #490 - 01/13/16 at 07:08:33
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 01/12/16 at 22:16:03:
This premise is at the moment unsupported (something which makes it hard to take seriously) and vaguely defined (something that it shouldn't be).


You have the right of course not to take seriously my opinion, but you have to know that there is something called "intuition" and this has some value. Optically this position simply doesn't look nice for White as a main choice for a repertoire. It might be viable for a single game if you analyse it rather deeply. I analysed it a bit and found Black to be fine, but didn't want to start a big discussion about moves and variations because simply it doesn't look right (the line i mean)

As far as 4.d3 is concerned we had some analysis in a line which later was seen in a Caruana- Nakamura game and since then in a lot of other ones as well. No, it was not a full repertoire coverage though.

Breyer: In the book i wrote and it at the printer as i post this (out in a few weeks and before the end of the month at Forward Chess), the line that caused me the most problems was

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Be7 6. Re1 b5 7. Bb3 d6 8. c3 O-O 9. h3 Nb8 10. d4 Nbd7 11. Nbd2 Bb7 12. Bc2 Re8 13. a4 Bf8 14. b3 without playing the bishop to d3 quickly.

Also Karpov's 13. Nf1 Bf8 14. Ng3 g6 15. Bg5 h6 16. Bd2 strikes me as a very easy and practical choice for White, maybe not to get an objective advantage, but the kind of line which you can fall back when a trendy theoretical line that is your first choice gets neutralised in a super-tournament.
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #489 - 01/13/16 at 06:54:00
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kylemeister wrote on 01/13/16 at 06:30:23:
It appears unsurprising (thinking of some other very old stuff) that Black's Angriffswille kann glänzend durchdringen when White plays Bc4 followed by Ng5   Smiley

OK, but Tartakower was one of the pioneers of the Jaenisch, so his gut feeling regarding 4.d3 may be worth something. Others prefer the crystal ball of the databases, and then it's 51.7% for White in 4,000 games with 4.d3 vs 56.7% for White in 8,000 games with 4.Nc3. It tells you that 4.Nc3 works pretty well in practice. Just the same as Dr. T's intuition...

I've supported 4.d3 (see reply #356, for example), but CbT's proposal is simple, straightforward and could well be the way to go. If it works.
  
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kylemeister
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #488 - 01/13/16 at 06:30:23
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It appears unsurprising (thinking of some other very old stuff) that Black's Angriffswille kann glänzend durchdringen when White plays Bc4 followed by Ng5   Smiley
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #487 - 01/13/16 at 04:28:24
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 01/12/16 at 17:52:01:
While positions reached are not entirely clear I think white is reasonably safe and also there is an extra piece to work with in the long run.

In your final position, Black plays 19...Rg3 20.Rf3 Re4 21.Rxg3 Qxg3 22.Rg1 Qxf4 23.Ng4 Ke6 24.Rg2 Qf5! 25.Kg1 (25.Nxe3? Qxh3+; 25.Nh2 Rxd4 =) 25...Bf4 =. Three pawns for the piece, Black has nothing to fear. If someone finds a source where Bd6! had already been mentioned, please share it with me. It's a logical move...

The following is what Tartakower said about 4.d3 in Die Hypermoderne Schachpartie (1925), p.29:

Quote:
Läßt man aber dem Schwarzen (z.B. mit 4.d3) Zeit, so dringt oft sein Angriffswille glänzend durch, wie folgende Lokalturnierpartie zeigt: ... Balla - Réti

Plain, simple German, so probably no translation necessary.   Smiley
  
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #486 - 01/12/16 at 22:16:03
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Hello.

Ametanoitos wrote on 01/12/16 at 18:22:42:
Nah, this cannot be right for White.

This premise is at the moment unsupported (something which makes it hard to take seriously) and vaguely defined (something that it shouldn't be).

Ametanoitos wrote on 01/12/16 at 18:22:42:
In my opinion, the big problem for 3...f5 is 4.d3! We had analysed this here before and concluded that White is better. Why are we getting back to this i cannot really understand!

I'm fairly optimistic about's white chances in the 4.d3 line myself. It is what I play personally with good results. I am thus of course not in principle against a switch to a 4.d3 based repertoire

Considering that one ideally would like to put together this repertoire in full some day; one can ask what has been analysed after 4.d3? (referencing or reitteration is needed here) and if it is possible to make some kind of repertoire out of it? If the answers are little and not without much work then obviously there is some work cut out and an eventual finished repertoire would be a long way off.

In contrast after 4.Nc3 I would say a finished repertoire is not a long way of. This is provided we can settle for a line after 5...Nf6 (three have been suggested and at least four mentioned). The prospect of finishing some kind of repertoire in near time (and then ideally moving on) is basically why I at least am drawn to analysing 4.Nc3.

Ametanoitos wrote on 01/12/16 at 18:22:42:
Lets refute the Breyer instead! I have a coupld of ideas...

I suggest starting parallell discussions to those already in progress if you have a new line you want to analyse. Such have been known to go on before in this thread and I don't see it negatively infuencing the project; unless the suggesting of new lines goes completely out of control, which I doubt.

Obviously I would suggest the same for those that would like a 4.d3 repertoire in the Jaenisch.

Have a nice day.

  
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NegiRefutes
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #485 - 01/12/16 at 20:08:28
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Ametanoitos, what is the best line against the Breyer in your opinion? 17... Nc5 in them main line seems to be good for Black
  
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Ametanoitos
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #484 - 01/12/16 at 18:22:42
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Nah, this cannot be right for White.

In my opinion, the big problem for 3...f5 is 4.d3! We had analysed this here before and concluded that White is better. Why are we getting back to this i cannot really understand! Lets refute the Breyer instead! I have a coupld of ideas... Tongue
  
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #483 - 01/12/16 at 17:52:01
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Hello.

Maybe white can go for something like this. Didn't see any clear alternatives actually.



While positions reached are not entirely clear I think white is reasonably safe and also there is an extra piece to work with in the long run.

Have a nice day.
  
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #482 - 01/12/16 at 15:11:44
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Hello.

Stefan Buecker wrote on 01/12/16 at 12:07:28:
8...Bg7 was the reply given by Varnusz in his Klassische Systeme oder Spanisch ohne 3...a6 (1995). His main line ran: 8.0-0!? Bg7 9.Nd4! Bd7 (9...Qd6) 10.Qh5+ Kf8 "unclear".

Something like this seems fairly nice for white.

Stefan Buecker wrote on 01/12/16 at 12:07:28:
However I believe we can agree that other lines are more critical than 8...Bg7.

Agreed. Nontheless I can put in a few lines of analysis on the move into an eventual Jaenisch 5...Nf6 summary file.


Stefan Buecker wrote on 01/12/16 at 12:07:28:
For example this one: 8...Bg4! 9.h3 Bh5! 10.g4 Bd6! (not 10...Rg8? 11.Nxe5) which offers Black more than enough compensation for the piece. White can decline the sacrifice, but after 11.d4 e4 12.Nh4 Bg6 13.f3 Qd7 Black is hardly worse. - The position had occurred before, but in Kirk Sadler - Steve Law (2009), Black played the weak 10...Bf7? 11.Sxe5 and was crushed (1-0, 17). Could 10...Bd6! be new?

Interesting. There is some amount of compensation for the piece should white take it and Bg4 is a natural move should it work. Will check this.

Have a nice day.
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #481 - 01/12/16 at 12:07:28
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PatzerNoster wrote on 01/12/16 at 06:44:38:
If it is a repertoire for OTB players, we should look at the most frequently played moves.

In my DB, after 6.Qe2 d5 7.Nf6: gf6: 8.0-0 Bg7 is the main move by far, although 9.Nd4 looks strong.

8...Bg7 was the reply given by Varnusz in his Klassische Systeme oder Spanisch ohne 3...a6 (1995). His main line ran: 8.0-0!? Bg7 9.Nd4! Bd7 (9...Qd6) 10.Qh5+ Kf8 "unclear". However I believe we can agree that other lines are more critical than 8...Bg7.

For example this one: 8...Bg4! 9.h3 Bh5! 10.g4 Bd6! (not 10...Rg8? 11.Nxe5) which offers Black more than enough compensation for the piece. White can decline the sacrifice, but after 11.d4 e4 12.Nh4 Bg6 13.f3 Qd7 Black is hardly worse. - The position had occurred before, but in Kirk Sadler - Steve Law (2009), Black played the weak 10...Bf7? 11.Sxe5 and was crushed (1-0, 17). Could 10...Bd6! be new?
  
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