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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Spanish repertoire (Read 213037 times)
proustiskeen
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #540 - 09/02/17 at 18:53:13
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TN wrote on 08/22/17 at 19:45:03:
I only flicked through McDonald's book in a bookstall, but I can share the same experience of having a much better understanding from his explanations.

Btw, is there an index of the variations analysed in this repertoire thread? I'm thinking of creating one in about a month if the members agree it will be useful. For instance - I am tempted to share some analysis on MVL's Marshall Gambit approach and also the Bxc5 idea in the Breyer but don't exactly want to spend half an hour to check whether someone already covered the same ground.


I think it would be very useful.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #539 - 09/02/17 at 17:19:06
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barnaby wrote on 09/02/17 at 16:23:19:
He merged with the infinite.


Yes, I see. I am sorry to see of his passing. Almost 2 years ago to the day.  Cry
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #538 - 09/02/17 at 16:23:19
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trw wrote on 09/02/17 at 16:02:11:
TN wrote on 08/22/17 at 19:45:03:
I only flicked through McDonald's book in a bookstall, but I can share the same experience of having a much better understanding from his explanations.

Btw, is there an index of the variations analysed in this repertoire thread? I'm thinking of creating one in about a month if the members agree it will be useful. For instance - I am tempted to share some analysis on MVL's Marshall Gambit approach and also the Bxc5 idea in the Breyer but don't exactly want to spend half an hour to check whether someone already covered the same ground.



I would enjoy it.

Stefan Buecker wrote on 08/29/17 at 08:02:53:
This repertoire thread has covered "lesser replies", with a number of good suggestions. The basic idea of Markovich (Mark Morss) was a += repertoire for White, and many have contributed to it. However, imo the thread has run its course. Tastes differ too much on how to treat 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6. One person's Marshall Attack is the other person's Exchange Variation, or Steenwijk or Central or ... whatever.


Whatever happened to Markovich?


He merged with the infinite.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #537 - 09/02/17 at 16:22:32
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trw wrote on 09/02/17 at 16:02:11:
Whatever happened to Markovich?

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1441470190/50
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #536 - 09/02/17 at 16:02:11
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TN wrote on 08/22/17 at 19:45:03:
I only flicked through McDonald's book in a bookstall, but I can share the same experience of having a much better understanding from his explanations.

Btw, is there an index of the variations analysed in this repertoire thread? I'm thinking of creating one in about a month if the members agree it will be useful. For instance - I am tempted to share some analysis on MVL's Marshall Gambit approach and also the Bxc5 idea in the Breyer but don't exactly want to spend half an hour to check whether someone already covered the same ground.



I would enjoy it.

Stefan Buecker wrote on 08/29/17 at 08:02:53:
This repertoire thread has covered "lesser replies", with a number of good suggestions. The basic idea of Markovich (Mark Morss) was a += repertoire for White, and many have contributed to it. However, imo the thread has run its course. Tastes differ too much on how to treat 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6. One person's Marshall Attack is the other person's Exchange Variation, or Steenwijk or Central or ... whatever.


Whatever happened to Markovich?
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #535 - 08/29/17 at 22:44:11
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Hi.

TN wrote on 08/22/17 at 19:45:03:
Btw, is there an index of the variations analysed in this repertoire thread?

Reply #265 is the latest PGN summary of all analysis. An up to date summary is always welcome of course but it is a lot of work.
I swiftly counted PGNs once (#463) but it gave mainly that there were quite few PGNs for a lot of lines.

TN wrote on 08/22/17 at 19:45:03:
I am tempted to share some analysis on MVL's Marshall Gambit approach and also the Bxc5 idea in the Breyer but don't exactly want to spend half an hour to check whether someone already covered the same ground.

Marshall summary in reply #525. Breyer not so much analysis yet.

Stefan Buecker wrote on 08/29/17 at 08:02:53:
This repertoire thread has covered "lesser replies", with a number of good suggestions. The basic idea of Markovich (Mark Morss) was a += repertoire for White, and many have contributed to it. However, imo the thread has run its course. Tastes differ too much on how to treat 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6. One person's Marshall Attack is the other person's Exchange Variation, or Steenwijk or Central or ... whatever.

Maybe going for analysis of a mainline is good at this point in the project. Might revitalise some interest.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #534 - 08/29/17 at 08:02:53
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TN wrote on 08/22/17 at 19:45:03:
Btw, is there an index of the variations analysed in this repertoire thread? I'm thinking of creating one in about a month if the members agree it will be useful. For instance - I am tempted to share some analysis on MVL's Marshall Gambit approach and also the Bxc5 idea in the Breyer but don't exactly want to spend half an hour to check whether someone already covered the same ground.

I'd much appreciate such an index. Personally I feel the theory of the Marshall Attack has become too vast, but occasionally I've looked at some lines.

This repertoire thread has covered "lesser replies", with a number of good suggestions. The basic idea of Markovich (Mark Morss) was a += repertoire for White, and many have contributed to it. However, imo the thread has run its course. Tastes differ too much on how to treat 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6. One person's Marshall Attack is the other person's Exchange Variation, or Steenwijk or Central or ... whatever.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #533 - 08/22/17 at 19:45:03
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I only flicked through McDonald's book in a bookstall, but I can share the same experience of having a much better understanding from his explanations.

Btw, is there an index of the variations analysed in this repertoire thread? I'm thinking of creating one in about a month if the members agree it will be useful. For instance - I am tempted to share some analysis on MVL's Marshall Gambit approach and also the Bxc5 idea in the Breyer but don't exactly want to spend half an hour to check whether someone already covered the same ground.
  

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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #532 - 08/22/17 at 12:10:48
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McDonald's The Ruy Lopez: Move by Move give gives two repertoures. One quick with d3 systems and one none d3 based.
I actually one read and used the d3 based. My undertstanding of Ruy Lopez positions incresed much by simply reading McDonald's intro chapter.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #531 - 08/22/17 at 05:54:22
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The repertoire itself is certainly still valid, you'd just have to do some updating using a database and an engine in some of the sharper lines.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #530 - 08/22/17 at 00:34:32
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I have the book Easy Guide to the Ruy Lopez by Emms. I think it's a nice little book and was wondering if it's still valid. And how does it compare to McDonald's The Ruy Lopez: Move by Move?
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #529 - 02/18/17 at 12:34:25
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Hello.

TN wrote on 02/18/17 at 09:15:16:
Naturally the Berlin is the main challenge for the repertoire, but Vachier-Lagrave's recent Gibraltar games give food for thought in the Berlin endgame. There's also 5.Re1 as covered in Shirov's recent ChessBase DVD, and even the Spanish Four Knights has been scoring very well for White lately. I'm happy to discuss any of these directions if you have some new ideas for either colour.

Personally I am holding of analysing Spanish (pretty much all lines) until Negi publishes his 1.e4 e5 volume. Also I am not a Berliner Wink (so to speak)

Still. Vachier Lagrave Games Smiley:




Good results. Looked good as well. No idea if the games were theoretical (a4-a5-a6 in the Gupta game for example. I mean. is that a thing?).

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #528 - 02/18/17 at 09:15:16
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Naturally the Berlin is the main challenge for the repertoire, but Vachier-Lagrave's recent Gibraltar games give food for thought in the Berlin endgame. There's also 5.Re1 as covered in Shirov's recent ChessBase DVD, and even the Spanish Four Knights has been scoring very well for White lately. I'm happy to discuss any of these directions if you have some new ideas for either colour.
  

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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #527 - 02/18/17 at 06:21:01
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Hey.

mn wrote on 12/17/16 at 15:50:59:
Has this project been abandoned? Has anyone collected current progress in a PGN?

Probably the lack of replies is indicative of things.

Anyway. In practice I would say the following can be be seen:
- The nature of this kind of project is that progress is made in spurts.
- Reaching += with all or almost all black attempts covered is truly difficult and analysis intensive even against relatively non mainline black setups.
- Interest for lines comes and goes.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #526 - 12/17/16 at 15:50:59
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Has this project been abandoned? Has anyone collected current progress in a PGN?
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #525 - 05/30/16 at 10:58:44
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Hello.

Here is a summary of Marshall analysis done so far in the thread (se attached PGN). Character limitations prevent posting the PGN in a PGN window.

Have a nice day.
  

Marshall_analysis_summary.pgn ( 12 KB | 261 Downloads )
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #524 - 05/29/16 at 09:38:37
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Hello.

I am growing more and more pessimistic about white's chances for an advantage after (8...Bd7). Black seems solid pretty much all the time in this continuation. Here is some more lines compared to what I have already posted.



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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #523 - 05/23/16 at 10:36:58
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Hi.

Earlier today I put together analysis of (6...Bc5) and (6...d6) Jaenisch into the same PGN and added some analysis of reasonable replies against black sidelines between move 4 and 7. The result is a PGN to large to post in a PGN window due to character limitations. It is possible to attach the PGN-file though and this has been done below.

Anyone checking this PGN can see it as a Jaenisch repertoire suggestion. This repertoire suggestion is not carved in stone and can very much be modified and amended. If however, at some point a consensus is reached that the repertoire suggestion has reached a sufficient degree of maturity I move that it should be adopted as part of the so called Chesspub Spanish repertoire.

To start some discussion I can say that I'm not sure about what is best after:
(1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.d3 fxe4 5.dxe4 Nf6 6.0-0 d6 7.Nc3 Be7 8.Qd3 Bd7)
As it is I'm not even convinced the main line given in the PGN is actually advantageous for white. Anyone have any nice ideas here?

Have a nice day.
  

Jaenisch_repertoire_suggestion.pgn ( 13 KB | 193 Downloads )
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #522 - 05/18/16 at 18:54:30
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Hello.

The Marshall was discussed as recently as three years ago (see roughly post 391 to 445). Some nice analysis for sure. As for me I cannot say anything about how promising/unpromising the lines seem without checking deeper I'm afraid.

Nice game of Saric. About that line though, I'm fairly sure there is apart from (13...Bf5) also (13...Qh4).

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #521 - 05/18/16 at 16:12:54
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The Jaenisch ideas look very nice, I'm keen to try them out in my next game! I'm not sure we covered an answer to the Marshall yet, but I think the following game would be a fairly practical recommendation where we can still challenge the opponent:

  

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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #520 - 05/18/16 at 10:11:11
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Hello.

Here is some analysis on 4.d3 fxe4 with 6...d6. Black looks reasonably solid in most lines, perhaps especially after 8...Bd7 still there should be ways to some advantage.



File attached below.

Have a nice day.
  

Jaenisch_4_d3_fxe4_with_6___d6.pgn ( 4 KB | 165 Downloads )
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #519 - 05/04/16 at 22:05:28
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10. Na4 looks good, White has some edge there.

Here is some analysis on 6... d6 (8. Qd3) I refined it a bit since the last time I posted it.

  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #518 - 05/01/16 at 14:42:52
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Hello.

Today I started looking at 4.d3 in the Jaenisch. As NegiR and perhaps others earlier in the thread have mentioned there seems to be two main lines:

(1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.d3 fxe4 5.dxe4 Nf6 6.0-0 Bc5)
(1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.d3 fxe4 5.dxe4 Nf6 6.0-0 d6)

I started by looking at the natural move 6...Bc5 and will present some analysis of this below. Hopefully there will be opportunities for me to create and post some analysis on 6...d6 soon.

As can be seen I reckon white has at least some advantage in all lines checked.

In terms of approaches 10.Na4!? in the posted analysis ml looks more appealing to me than 10.Nd3; because after 10.Nd3 black seems to be able to escape to not obviously bad positions if he shows some precision.

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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #517 - 04/12/16 at 09:48:45
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Hi.

Confused_by_Theory wrote on 04/01/16 at 11:28:20:
About the alternative line:
(1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.Nc3 fxe4 5.Nxe4 Nf6 6.Qe2 d5 7.Nxf6+ gxf6 8.d4 Bg7 9.c4)
Maybe white can find his way to some kind of pleasant late middlegame. I reckon this continuation, starting with (9...Bg4) is critical:
(Line from post #514)
Confused_by_Theory wrote on 04/01/16 at 11:28:20:
Will likely post some analysis on this soon.

Here is some analysis on this:
To sum up. It seems like white gets little in the line. At best some very mild pressure.


About NR's 4.d3 Jaenisch lines. I have not taken a deeper look yet. An immediate observation though was that in the line with (6...d6) and (8...Bd7) maybe (14...Rd8) is more natural than (14...Qg6).

Have a nice day.
  

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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #516 - 04/01/16 at 19:54:16
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Hi.

Quote:
Anyway, 4. d3 is in my opinion the best move and lately, it has been played the most and it seems like there is a slight advantage there for White. 6... Bc5 is the main move but it looks like White is easily better there. After 6... d6, I have 8. Qd3 here and if anyone can refute that, then I will post analysis on 8. Be3. Of course, there are sidelines also like 4... Nf6, but those aren't really serious and if no one has a problem with the analysis on the main lines, then I can post the sidelines also.

Good initiative. Will take a look.

Have a nice evening.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #515 - 04/01/16 at 17:54:01
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Hi,

I wasn't able to find much of an edge for White after 4. Nc3 and 8... Bg7. But maybe there is something that I just can't see.

Anyway, 4. d3 is in my opinion the best move and lately, it has been played the most and it seems like there is a slight advantage there for White. 6... Bc5 is the main move but it looks like White is easily better there. After 6... d6, I have 8. Qd3 here and if anyone can refute that, then I will post analysis on 8. Be3. Of course, there are sidelines also like 4... Nf6, but those aren't really serious and if no one has a problem with the analysis on the main lines, then I can post the sidelines also.

  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #514 - 04/01/16 at 11:28:20
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Hi.

So I have pretty much given up on finding advantage for white after:
(1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.Nc3 fxe4 5.Nxe4 Nf6 6.Qe2 d5 7.Nxf6+ gxf6 8.d4 Bg7 9.dxe5 0-0 10.e6 Ne5)
Without going 11.Bf4 I don't think he has anything and this move has concrete drawbacks (after 11...c6), as pointed out earlier.

About the alternative line:
(1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.Nc3 fxe4 5.Nxe4 Nf6 6.Qe2 d5 7.Nxf6+ gxf6 8.d4 Bg7 9.c4)
Maybe white can find his way to some kind of pleasant late middlegame. I reckon this continuation, starting with (9...Bg4) is critical:


Will likely post some analysis on this soon.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #513 - 03/20/16 at 15:19:39
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Hello.

Well. 12.Nxe5 looks like it should not lead to advantage. Good find (of 11...c6) Mr. Bücker.


This is sort of problematic because it leaves the continuation mentioned in the post before last one

(11.Bf4 c6 12.Bd3 Nxd3+ 13.Qxd3)
or
not (11.Bf4)

As the ways forward in search of the advantage after 8.d4. I will probably check these a bit more, though I doubt there will be much of any advantage to be seen.

Edit: Actually have looked a bit at 8.d4 Bg7 9.c4!? as well which may be the next line to try and find advantage in.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #512 - 03/19/16 at 17:36:22
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Hi.

Stefan Buecker wrote on 03/19/16 at 12:34:49:
Black can play 10...Ne5 11.Bf4 c6 (instead of your 11...Qd6), e.g. 12.Bd3 Nxd3+ 13.Qxd3 c5 14.b4 b6. After regaining the pawn e6, Black continues Rfe8, Qd7, maybe Bf8 (if necessary). Looks = to me.

Yes. If black gets in c6 and Nxd3 virtually immediately then white should have no chance for advantage. Also there is a queen check preventing Ba4, which is nice.

12.Nxe5!? is the move I intended for white. The line may be playable for black though. Will check a bit deeper.

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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #511 - 03/19/16 at 12:34:49
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 03/08/16 at 10:30:45:
Today I will finally get around to posting some analysis on the alternative to 8.0-0 in the 6.Qe2 Jaenisch, which is 8.d4. Notably a lot of the following analysis is focused on (8...Bg7 9.dxe5 0-0 10.e6 Qd6), this is because the alternatves at move 10 look to give white a fairly easy time imo.

Black can play 10...Ne5 11.Bf4 c6 (instead of your 11...Qd6), e.g. 12.Bd3 Nxd3+ 13.Qxd3 c5 14.b4 b6. After regaining the pawn e6, Black continues Rfe8, Qd7, maybe Bf8 (if necessary). Looks = to me.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #510 - 03/08/16 at 13:22:49
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Hi.

Paddy wrote on 03/08/16 at 12:25:08:
The pgn link doesn't work for me; it throws up the message: "The requested URL's length exceeds the capacity limit for this server."

However, there is a work-around: compose a reply to the posting by selecting quote; then copy the notation that appears in the window, from "[Event..." to "...for white.} *" and paste it into e.g. a new game window in Chessbase, et voilà!

Clever work-around. I will remember this.

Here is the file attached (will start attaching in the future).
  

Jaenisch_6_Qe2_with_8_d4.pgn ( 6 KB | 184 Downloads )
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #509 - 03/08/16 at 12:25:08
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 03/08/16 at 10:30:45:
Hi.

Today I will finally get around to posting some analysis on the alternative to 8.0-0 in the 6.Qe2 Jaenisch, which is 8.d4. Notably a lot of the following analysis is focused on (8...Bg7 9.dxe5 0-0 10.e6 Qd6), this is because the alternatves at move 10 look to give white a fairly easy time imo.

After 10...Qd6 I had trouble settling on a line. Eventually coming around to the thinking that simple is probaby good I opted for a straightforward line as ml in the analysis. It is not inconceivable that one of the alternative lines is as good or better though.



Have a nice day.


The pgn link doesn't work for me; it throws up the message: "The requested URL's length exceeds the capacity limit for this server."

However, there is a work-around: compose a reply to the posting by selecting quote; then copy the notation that appears in the window, from "[Event..." to "...for white.} *" and paste it into e.g. a new game window in Chessbase, et voilà!
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #508 - 03/08/16 at 10:30:45
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Hi.

Today I will finally get around to posting some analysis on the alternative to 8.0-0 in the 6.Qe2 Jaenisch, which is 8.d4. Notably a lot of the following analysis is focused on (8...Bg7 9.dxe5 0-0 10.e6 Qd6), this is because the alternatves at move 10 look to give white a fairly easy time imo.

After 10...Qd6 I had trouble settling on a line. Eventually coming around to the thinking that simple is probaby good I opted for a straightforward line as ml in the analysis. It is not inconceivable that one of the alternative lines is as good or better though.



Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #507 - 01/27/16 at 17:41:14
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 01/26/16 at 17:19:17:
What is it that gives white a little something after 21.Qe3? Both players look to have fairly solid positions.

Good knight vs bad bishop. I am the first to admit that objectively it isn't much, but humans don't defend flawlessly, and I guess in practice White would score nicely.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #506 - 01/26/16 at 17:19:17
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Hello.

Ametanoitos wrote on 01/25/16 at 15:35:25:
Btw, do we have something against 3...g6? It seems that Carlsen works very hard to give this little Spanish line a main line status since smyslov's times.

Nothing about 3...g6 in the summary-file. Some faint memory tells me I've read about the move somewhere in the thread though.


Continuing with the Jaenisch discussion:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 01/20/16 at 00:30:10:
Now I believe that 13.c4 f5 14.Ng2 is more precise, e.g. 14...0-0 15.Bxc6 bxc6 16.c5 Be7 17.Bh6 Re8 18.f3 Bg5 19.Bxg5 Qxg5 20.f4 Qh6 21.Qe3. White has a little something.

What is it that gives white a little something after 21.Qe3? Both players look to have fairly solid positions.



I'm going to look a bit at 8.d4 (instead of 8.0-0). This is what I was intending to check before I found 8.0-0 (which I now think seems just about OK for black - if he knows his lines very well).

After 8.d4 black can play either 8...e4, which looks a bit weakening to me (after white's 9.Nh4).
or...
8...Bg7, when I will likely try and find some advantage after 9.dxe5 0-0 10.e6

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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #505 - 01/25/16 at 15:35:25
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The key phrase is "in the practical sense". I don't want to propose a line which is objectively equal but Black has to defend with care and accidents can happen at f7 (as has happened twice in games of my students). Also, unfortunately I don't even think that after ...Be6 white can hope to find a reasonable idea which will increase considerably his chances in the opening.

The exchange variation or the various d3 systems are more of a serious field of study (where ideas to put black under pressure could potentially be found).

Btw, do we have something against 3...g6? It seems that Carlsen works very hard to give this little Spanish line a main line status since smyslov's times.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #504 - 01/25/16 at 08:02:04
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There is an excerpt of Nikolaos Ntirlis' (aka Ametanoitos) new work available online.
This is what he says about 9...Be6 (p. 243):

Quote:
If it wasn’t for this move I would have found it hard to recommend something against the Worrall that I find completely fine for Black, at least in the practical sense.

So if someone could refute 9...Be6, it would do much of the job.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #503 - 01/20/16 at 00:30:10
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MartinC wrote on 01/19/16 at 13:35:35:
Yes, that looks much more human Smiley

Btw, it is the same line which I originally suggested for White against my Bd6:

Stefan Buecker wrote on 01/12/16 at 12:07:28:
White can decline the sacrifice, but after 11.d4 e4 12.Nh4 Bg6 13.f3 Qd7 Black is hardly worse.

Now I believe that 13.c4 f5 14.Ng2 is more precise, e.g. 14...0-0 15.Bxc6 bxc6 16.c5 Be7 17.Bh6 Re8 18.f3 Bg5 19.Bxg5 Qxg5 20.f4 Qh6 21.Qe3. White has a little something.

  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #502 - 01/19/16 at 13:35:35
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Yes, that looks much more human Smiley Much more the sort of thing that might deter black too.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #501 - 01/19/16 at 12:16:08
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Hi.

MartinC wrote on 01/19/16 at 10:01:14:
Those lines do also strike me as pretty horribly risky/unpleasant to try and play over the board as white! Much easier for black.


My general practical considerations on the positions after 12.d4 would be the following:

After 12.d4 White has passive pieces for quite long. Black on the other has very active pieces and will probably have for a forseeable future.
On the other hand black has some problems creating truly dangerous pressure and in the long term white's extra piece means he should (minimum) never risk losing most of the more simplified positions that can arise.
There is a lot of perpetuals and repetitions (definitely more then in the pgn above) in these positions.

A simpler choice (mainly for the otb player) compared to 12.d4 would perhaps be 11.d4, briefly mentioned in the pgn. If I am correct then there are not that many good alternatives to the continuation given and the end position there looks fairly riskless.

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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #500 - 01/19/16 at 10:01:14
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Those lines do also strike me as pretty horribly risky/unpleasant to try and play over the board as white! Much easier for black.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #499 - 01/19/16 at 08:58:19
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Hello.

Confused_by_Theory wrote on 01/14/16 at 19:27:21:
Indeed. I am checking 17.Be3 c5 atm.

Must have completely blacked out here. Was in fact checking:
17.Be3 Rg3 18.Rae1 Rag8 19.Rg1 f5 20.Rxg3 Rxg3 21.Bd2 c5 (only now c5 as 17...c5 is ??). Sorry for any confusion.

Here is some analysis of the reasonable lines I could find after 8...Bg4. Sadly I haven't found much of an advantage for white anywhere.



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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #498 - 01/17/16 at 08:41:53
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I have my doubts whether a more patient defender - say, Kramnik - would have lost this game. Advancing with the h-pawn doesn't look good (moves 29 and 32). For most of its course, "drawish" seems a fair assessment. From old days in Biel, memories of Hübner - Ftacnik are dear, but is it more than just a daydream? I am not sure, was Fünfundfünfzig feiste Fehler actually a bestseller? Could the chess store clerks among the members tell us, please? Anyway, for an ambitious repertoire, 4.Nc3 appears to be a better choice.



  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #497 - 01/14/16 at 19:27:21
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Hi.

Stefan Buecker wrote on 01/14/16 at 15:22:49:
While I like 10...Bd6, the resulting position remains interesting. In your analysis, 17. Be3 (instead of the subtler 17.Bd2) could be tried in a game.

Indeed. I am checking 17.Be3 c5 atm.

Stefan Buecker wrote on 01/14/16 at 15:22:49:
Another option is 11. d4 e4 12. c4 Bf7 13. Nh4 h5 14. cxd5 Bxd5 15. f3 hxg4 16. fxe4 Be6 17. Qf2 or 17.Nf5. I haven't found a win, but Black has to defend carefully for a draw.

Ok. The more options the better. Will check this also.

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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #496 - 01/14/16 at 15:22:49
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 01/14/16 at 06:16:44:
I checked the 17.Bd2 move from my last pgn (post #483). The idea of the move is to put the bishop on it's probable best square and when black drives it away with e3, to try and win the e3 pawn at some point. It seems though that against the likely best way forward for black (Stefan Bücker's line from reply #487), white does not seem to have much.

While I like 10...Bd6, the resulting position remains interesting. In your analysis, 17. Be3 (instead of the subtler 17.Bd2) could be tried in a game. Another option is 11. d4 e4 12. c4 Bf7 13. Nh4 h5 14. cxd5 Bxd5 15. f3 hxg4 16. fxe4 Be6 17. Qf2 or 17.Nf5. I haven't found a win, but Black has to defend carefully for a draw.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #495 - 01/14/16 at 13:16:13
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 01/14/16 at 06:16:44:
Simply put. Vague oneliners and talk about intuition is often not enough to convince people.


A classic mistake on the internet. "People" in this community haven't selected you as their representative. It is much fine to say "I am not convinced if i don't see some sample analysis", (i have said this type of thing several times in this foroum) but talking on behalf of others is usually not.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #494 - 01/14/16 at 06:16:44
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Hello.

I checked the 17.Bd2 move from my last pgn (post #483). The idea of the move is to put the bishop on it's probable best square and when black drives it away with e3, to try and win the e3 pawn at some point. It seems though that against the likely best way forward for black (Stefan Bücker's line from reply #487), white does not seem to have much.

If white takes the pawn quite early he can enter some rook versus bishop endgames but they all look very holdable.



Ametanoitos wrote on 01/13/16 at 07:08:33:
You have the right of course not to take seriously my opinion, but you have to know that there is something called "intuition" and this has some value. Optically this position simply doesn't look nice for White as a main choice for a repertoire. It might be viable for a single game if you analyse it rather deeply. I analysed it a bit and found Black to be fine, but didn't want to start a big discussion about moves and variations because simply it doesn't look right (the line i mean)

Simply put. Vague oneliners and talk about intuition is often not enough to convince people.

As you allude to you have analysed a bit. This is good. If you don't want to publish analysis it is very much ok.



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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #493 - 01/13/16 at 15:56:28
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Ametanoitos wrote on 01/13/16 at 14:58:17:
Regarding the exact source, i am afraid not! Can you offer some help? Smiley

No, sorry. I had mentioned the puzzle in another thread. That's why I was asking you. Two dates are given in the literature, 1910 and 1911, no source.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #492 - 01/13/16 at 14:58:17
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Yes, that was the game.

Regarding the exact source, i am afraid not! Can you offer some help? Smiley
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #491 - 01/13/16 at 11:16:10
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Ametanoitos wrote on 01/13/16 at 07:08:33:
As far as 4.d3 is concerned we had some analysis in a line which later was seen in a Caruana- Nakamura game [...]

This one?


Ametanoitos wrote on 01/13/16 at 07:08:33:
Breyer: In the book i wrote and it at the printer as i post this (out in a few weeks and before the end of the month at Forward Chess), [...]

Have you been able to find the exact source where Breyer recommended Nc6-b8?  Smiley
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #490 - 01/13/16 at 07:08:33
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 01/12/16 at 22:16:03:
This premise is at the moment unsupported (something which makes it hard to take seriously) and vaguely defined (something that it shouldn't be).


You have the right of course not to take seriously my opinion, but you have to know that there is something called "intuition" and this has some value. Optically this position simply doesn't look nice for White as a main choice for a repertoire. It might be viable for a single game if you analyse it rather deeply. I analysed it a bit and found Black to be fine, but didn't want to start a big discussion about moves and variations because simply it doesn't look right (the line i mean)

As far as 4.d3 is concerned we had some analysis in a line which later was seen in a Caruana- Nakamura game and since then in a lot of other ones as well. No, it was not a full repertoire coverage though.

Breyer: In the book i wrote and it at the printer as i post this (out in a few weeks and before the end of the month at Forward Chess), the line that caused me the most problems was

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Be7 6. Re1 b5 7. Bb3 d6 8. c3 O-O 9. h3 Nb8 10. d4 Nbd7 11. Nbd2 Bb7 12. Bc2 Re8 13. a4 Bf8 14. b3 without playing the bishop to d3 quickly.

Also Karpov's 13. Nf1 Bf8 14. Ng3 g6 15. Bg5 h6 16. Bd2 strikes me as a very easy and practical choice for White, maybe not to get an objective advantage, but the kind of line which you can fall back when a trendy theoretical line that is your first choice gets neutralised in a super-tournament.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #489 - 01/13/16 at 06:54:00
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kylemeister wrote on 01/13/16 at 06:30:23:
It appears unsurprising (thinking of some other very old stuff) that Black's Angriffswille kann glänzend durchdringen when White plays Bc4 followed by Ng5   Smiley

OK, but Tartakower was one of the pioneers of the Jaenisch, so his gut feeling regarding 4.d3 may be worth something. Others prefer the crystal ball of the databases, and then it's 51.7% for White in 4,000 games with 4.d3 vs 56.7% for White in 8,000 games with 4.Nc3. It tells you that 4.Nc3 works pretty well in practice. Just the same as Dr. T's intuition...

I've supported 4.d3 (see reply #356, for example), but CbT's proposal is simple, straightforward and could well be the way to go. If it works.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #488 - 01/13/16 at 06:30:23
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It appears unsurprising (thinking of some other very old stuff) that Black's Angriffswille kann glänzend durchdringen when White plays Bc4 followed by Ng5   Smiley
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #487 - 01/13/16 at 04:28:24
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 01/12/16 at 17:52:01:
While positions reached are not entirely clear I think white is reasonably safe and also there is an extra piece to work with in the long run.

In your final position, Black plays 19...Rg3 20.Rf3 Re4 21.Rxg3 Qxg3 22.Rg1 Qxf4 23.Ng4 Ke6 24.Rg2 Qf5! 25.Kg1 (25.Nxe3? Qxh3+; 25.Nh2 Rxd4 =) 25...Bf4 =. Three pawns for the piece, Black has nothing to fear. If someone finds a source where Bd6! had already been mentioned, please share it with me. It's a logical move...

The following is what Tartakower said about 4.d3 in Die Hypermoderne Schachpartie (1925), p.29:

Quote:
Läßt man aber dem Schwarzen (z.B. mit 4.d3) Zeit, so dringt oft sein Angriffswille glänzend durch, wie folgende Lokalturnierpartie zeigt: ... Balla - Réti

Plain, simple German, so probably no translation necessary.   Smiley
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #486 - 01/12/16 at 22:16:03
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Hello.

Ametanoitos wrote on 01/12/16 at 18:22:42:
Nah, this cannot be right for White.

This premise is at the moment unsupported (something which makes it hard to take seriously) and vaguely defined (something that it shouldn't be).

Ametanoitos wrote on 01/12/16 at 18:22:42:
In my opinion, the big problem for 3...f5 is 4.d3! We had analysed this here before and concluded that White is better. Why are we getting back to this i cannot really understand!

I'm fairly optimistic about's white chances in the 4.d3 line myself. It is what I play personally with good results. I am thus of course not in principle against a switch to a 4.d3 based repertoire

Considering that one ideally would like to put together this repertoire in full some day; one can ask what has been analysed after 4.d3? (referencing or reitteration is needed here) and if it is possible to make some kind of repertoire out of it? If the answers are little and not without much work then obviously there is some work cut out and an eventual finished repertoire would be a long way off.

In contrast after 4.Nc3 I would say a finished repertoire is not a long way of. This is provided we can settle for a line after 5...Nf6 (three have been suggested and at least four mentioned). The prospect of finishing some kind of repertoire in near time (and then ideally moving on) is basically why I at least am drawn to analysing 4.Nc3.

Ametanoitos wrote on 01/12/16 at 18:22:42:
Lets refute the Breyer instead! I have a coupld of ideas...

I suggest starting parallell discussions to those already in progress if you have a new line you want to analyse. Such have been known to go on before in this thread and I don't see it negatively infuencing the project; unless the suggesting of new lines goes completely out of control, which I doubt.

Obviously I would suggest the same for those that would like a 4.d3 repertoire in the Jaenisch.

Have a nice day.

  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #485 - 01/12/16 at 20:08:28
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Ametanoitos, what is the best line against the Breyer in your opinion? 17... Nc5 in them main line seems to be good for Black
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #484 - 01/12/16 at 18:22:42
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Nah, this cannot be right for White.

In my opinion, the big problem for 3...f5 is 4.d3! We had analysed this here before and concluded that White is better. Why are we getting back to this i cannot really understand! Lets refute the Breyer instead! I have a coupld of ideas... Tongue
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #483 - 01/12/16 at 17:52:01
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Hello.

Maybe white can go for something like this. Didn't see any clear alternatives actually.



While positions reached are not entirely clear I think white is reasonably safe and also there is an extra piece to work with in the long run.

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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #482 - 01/12/16 at 15:11:44
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Hello.

Stefan Buecker wrote on 01/12/16 at 12:07:28:
8...Bg7 was the reply given by Varnusz in his Klassische Systeme oder Spanisch ohne 3...a6 (1995). His main line ran: 8.0-0!? Bg7 9.Nd4! Bd7 (9...Qd6) 10.Qh5+ Kf8 "unclear".

Something like this seems fairly nice for white.

Stefan Buecker wrote on 01/12/16 at 12:07:28:
However I believe we can agree that other lines are more critical than 8...Bg7.

Agreed. Nontheless I can put in a few lines of analysis on the move into an eventual Jaenisch 5...Nf6 summary file.


Stefan Buecker wrote on 01/12/16 at 12:07:28:
For example this one: 8...Bg4! 9.h3 Bh5! 10.g4 Bd6! (not 10...Rg8? 11.Nxe5) which offers Black more than enough compensation for the piece. White can decline the sacrifice, but after 11.d4 e4 12.Nh4 Bg6 13.f3 Qd7 Black is hardly worse. - The position had occurred before, but in Kirk Sadler - Steve Law (2009), Black played the weak 10...Bf7? 11.Sxe5 and was crushed (1-0, 17). Could 10...Bd6! be new?

Interesting. There is some amount of compensation for the piece should white take it and Bg4 is a natural move should it work. Will check this.

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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #481 - 01/12/16 at 12:07:28
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PatzerNoster wrote on 01/12/16 at 06:44:38:
If it is a repertoire for OTB players, we should look at the most frequently played moves.

In my DB, after 6.Qe2 d5 7.Nf6: gf6: 8.0-0 Bg7 is the main move by far, although 9.Nd4 looks strong.

8...Bg7 was the reply given by Varnusz in his Klassische Systeme oder Spanisch ohne 3...a6 (1995). His main line ran: 8.0-0!? Bg7 9.Nd4! Bd7 (9...Qd6) 10.Qh5+ Kf8 "unclear". However I believe we can agree that other lines are more critical than 8...Bg7.

For example this one: 8...Bg4! 9.h3 Bh5! 10.g4 Bd6! (not 10...Rg8? 11.Nxe5) which offers Black more than enough compensation for the piece. White can decline the sacrifice, but after 11.d4 e4 12.Nh4 Bg6 13.f3 Qd7 Black is hardly worse. - The position had occurred before, but in Kirk Sadler - Steve Law (2009), Black played the weak 10...Bf7? 11.Sxe5 and was crushed (1-0, 17). Could 10...Bd6! be new?
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #480 - 01/12/16 at 06:44:38
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If it is a repertoire for OTB players, we should look at the most frequently played moves.

In my DB, after 6.Qe2 d5 7.Nf6: gf6: 8.0-0 Bg7 is the main move by far, although 9.Nd4 looks strong.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #479 - 01/12/16 at 00:03:06
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Is the repertoire for Corr. players or 2200+ OTB players?
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #478 - 01/11/16 at 20:52:15
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Quote:
I like Stefan's 16. Rf2! Should we move on to the next line now?

It's a small plus. Whether it would satisfy a Corr player is another question...
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #477 - 01/11/16 at 16:22:13
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I like Stefan's 16. Rf2! Should we move on to the next line now?
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #476 - 01/11/16 at 15:08:39
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Hello.

Stefan Buecker wrote on 01/11/16 at 11:19:57:
In CbT's new sideline (just posted!) 15. Rb1 Bc5+ 16. Kh1 e3 17. Bb5 Rhe8 18. Be2 Rad8 19.g3 Nd4 (19...d4 20.Rd1) 20.Bd3 e2 21.Re1 Bb4 22.Bf4 c5 23.Kg2, Black has lots of possibilities, and I guess one of these must be good enough for a draw. More importantly, it is a complicated mess, and the risks for White in an OTB game would be about as big as for Black.

My recommendation would be 16.Rf2!, e.g. Rad8 17.Bg4 Nb4 18.Kf1 Bxf2 19.Kxf2 Nd3+ 20.Ke3. Black has a small numerical advantage, but over the board I'd prefer White - it is simply easier to play, often White regains a pawn and can then try to win with 2 pieces vs R + P.

Yes. This seems nice and fairly practical. The h1 square is not fantastic for the king.


I thought I would post something on 6...Qe7. One realisation on this is that 7.0-0 d5 (positionally forced) 8.Nxf6+ gxf6 (positionally forced) 9.d4 just transposes to our 6...d5 line so basically the gods of practicality seem to be smiling at white. Alternatives also seem decent of course:


Have a nice day.

Edit fixed a disappeared + in the pgn
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #475 - 01/11/16 at 11:19:57
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The treatment suggested by Confused_by_theory looks promising.

Quote:
Hi,

the 6. Qe2 and 8. 0-0 line seems to be pretty decent and will surprise a lot of opponents, however, there is one line not mentioned that probably leads to a draw:


In CbT's new sideline (just posted!) 15. Rb1 Bc5+ 16. Kh1 e3 17. Bb5 Rhe8 18. Be2 Rad8 19.g3 Nd4 (19...d4 20.Rd1) 20.Bd3 e2 21.Re1 Bb4 22.Bf4 c5 23.Kg2, Black has lots of possibilities, and I guess one of these must be good enough for a draw. More importantly, it is a complicated mess, and the risks for White in an OTB game would be about as big as for Black.

My recommendation would be 16.Rf2!, e.g. Rad8 17.Bg4 Nb4 18.Kf1 Bxf2 19.Kxf2 Nd3+ 20.Ke3. Black has a small numerical advantage, but over the board I'd prefer White - it is simply easier to play, often White regains a pawn and can then try to win with 2 pieces vs R + P. 
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #474 - 01/11/16 at 10:46:06
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Hello.

Have now looked some at 13...Nxd4 and can say that white ends up in various slightly better endgames. Play after 13...Nxd4 is basically not forcing, even if some moves in each given continuation of course are. Some lines:


Winning chances etc. can of course be discussed (ad infinitum - if I know anything about the chesspub forum) but the relevance for this seems vague considering we are basically trying to create an opening repertoire and not for example do deep endgame analysis.
That being said it useful for the repertoire to avoid lines with obviously zero winning chances.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #473 - 01/10/16 at 23:04:53
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Hello.

Interesting try. Of course I had missed looking at 13...Nxd4.

Will take a look after I've finished watching the american football game Im enjoying atm.

Somehow I doubt though that black has some forced line to a safe position.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #472 - 01/10/16 at 22:58:01
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White goes 28. Rf1 and f6 or h5 fall off. The engine says 0.37 for White or something like that but I don't think White has real winning chances...

Therefore, I recommend 4. d3, if people don't have anything against 13... Nxd4 or an improvement for White before that, I'll post some analysis on 4. d3.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #471 - 01/10/16 at 22:29:51
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@NegiRefutes: in the final position of your analysis, I am curious how white will hold the draw.
Can he avoid a rook exchange? If not it seems dead lost as the pieces are inferior to a rook and the (soon to be) two connected passed pawns on the queenside.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #470 - 01/10/16 at 22:02:28
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Hi,

the 6. Qe2 and 8. 0-0 line seems to be pretty decent and will surprise a lot of opponents, however, there is one line not mentioned that probably leads to a draw:

  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #469 - 01/10/16 at 20:34:48
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Hello.

I have now looked a bit at something after (5...Nf6) in the Jaenisch.

Given the for me uninspiring nature of the pawn up white positions in either:

(1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.Nc3 fxe4 5.Nxe4 Nf6 6.Nxf6+ Qxf6 7.Qe2 Be7 8.Bxc6 bxc6 9.Qxe5 d6 10.Qxf6 Bxf6) or
(1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.Nc3 fxe4 5.Nxe4 Nf6 6.Nxf6+ Qxf6 7.Qe2 Be7 8.Bxc6 bxc6 9.Nxe5 Qe6)

I did not look at these lines. Instead I took a step back and investigated:

(1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.Nc3 fxe4 5.Nxe4 Nf6 6.Qe2)

With the major benefit of this line being that stuff is not exchanged. Initially, after the principled reply to 6.Qe2 of 6...d5, I was planning on going for the line:

(1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.Nc3 fxe4 5.Nxe4 Nf6 6.Qe2 d5 7.Nxf6+ gxf6 8.d4)

Mentioned in the thread previously, though not as far as I can see analysed. Realising that an alternative to 8.d4 exists in 8.0-0 I started looking at this and I must say I was quite pleased with the positions reached. I bring you a short pgn of roughly how a repertoire in this line could look like:



Basically I thought I'd ask if anyone sees any drawbacks to this 6.Qe2, 8.0-0 line or if it is something that can be recommended in the Spanish repertoire?

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #468 - 01/06/16 at 16:00:16
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Hi,

8... bxc6 in the main  line seems to be completely fine for Black, here is some analysis:



Unless someone has a big improvement on this, I think 4. d3 is a better option.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #467 - 01/06/16 at 06:12:47
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Hi.

Besides reading through the thread I have looked a fair bit at all the non (5...Nf6) lines. Using the Jaenisch analysis found in the analysis summary from post #265 as base I've been trying to find small refinements and the simple ways to the += when I think I've seen them.

I present to you a non (5...Nf6) Jaenisch repertoire outline suggestion.



Needless to say a plan would be to make something similar about the (5...Nf6) lines and then maybe fuse that with the file above. That should produce a reasonable Jaenisch repertoire.

Have a nice day.

Edit: attached the file in the pgn window
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #466 - 01/06/16 at 03:32:40
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Hello.

Confused_by_Theory wrote on 01/02/16 at 20:34:57:
I think I will look into if the Jaenisch coverage is sufficient and post a Jaenisch specific PGN.

Alright. After a fair bit of reading I have come to think that at least the Jaenisch coverage in this thread is very near enough to build a repertoire from. This is true at least for a 4.Nc3 repertoire. The other move 4.d3 has been mentioned as an alternative, though I have not seen much groundwork analysis for a 4.d3 repertoire in the thread; which would be needed.

I would say that for a 4.Nc3 repertoire with the lines discussed in this thread there are two definite mainlines to crack:

(1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.Nc3 fxe4 5.Nf6 Nxf6+ 6.Qxf6 Qe2 7.Be7 Bxc6 8.dxc6)
(1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.Nc3 fxe4 5.Nf6 Nxf6+ 6.Qxf6 Qe2 7.Be7 Bxc6 8.bxc6)

In the 8.dxc6 line as far as I can tell nothing has progressed since TN's magnificent summary of analysis done in post #265 (another summary seems not to have been done since this one btw). If this is enough analytically then the analysis should just be polished (I can do this if no one else will) before being bunched together with the other lines in the Jaenisch repertoire.

In the 8.bxc6 line the much discussed line from post #199 seems to have been hard to find a meaningful advantage in. Perhaps because of this another line was proposed in #362. It seems clear to me that these are two lines that both require a substantial body of proof before they can be considered +=. I wonder if we have this and which of the lines (if any) is to be chosen in the repertoire?

I await some kind of comment on these lines. If we decide to go for something in either line I will gladly help analyze.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #465 - 01/02/16 at 22:33:43
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Here is some very brief analysis that needs much more work:



  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #464 - 01/02/16 at 22:30:22
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I suggest that we move on to analyzing the Breyer.

I think two lines might be necessary because the Breyer is extremely solid and having two lines so that we can mix up our choices might be good.

I like the 14. Bg5 line and I think it deserves more attention.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #463 - 01/02/16 at 20:34:57
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Hello.

To get an overview of what has been analyzed i took to counting the pgn:s that have been produced so far in this thread, while also noting which line they were about.

#number indicates posts in this thread. For example #60 means there is a PGN in post number 60.

(1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5)
#60, #144, #191, #308, #348, #351, #362, #447

(1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a5)
#99

(1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Bc5)
#189

(1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nge7)
#209

Summaries
#217, #222, #265

(1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Bxc6 dxc6 5.0-0)
#229

(1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Be7 6.Re1 b5 7.Bb3 0-0 8.c3 d5)
#396, #400, #404, #413, #417, #427

(1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Be7 6.Re1 b5 7.Bb3 0-0 8.h3)
#439

(1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f6)
#452

It seems the Jaenisch is what has been getting the most attention, while actually the mainline-esque Marshall has been getting som decent coverage also.
Which lines have reached a point where they can be deemed to have been analyzed sufficiently I don't know.
I think I will look into if the Jaenisch coverage is sufficient and post a Jaenisch specific PGN.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #462 - 01/02/16 at 20:04:50
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Sounds like a fair way to approach the problem to me.  Grin
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #461 - 01/02/16 at 20:01:51
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TonyRo wrote on 01/02/16 at 18:46:46:
Also, what is the actual goal? I mean, at least for me, if you analyze anything deeply in enough, you'll likely find equality for Black in every line of the Ruy Lopez - I doubt 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5! is a forced win for White!

Your belief (a very reasonable belief, imo) isn't necessarily a contradiction to Markovich's approach. In reply #19 he said the following:

Markovich wrote on 07/24/11 at 20:32:44:
I don't say we should try to prove +=.  I say that our starting assumption should be that with best play, that's what White gets. If we find ourselves with less at some point, this will indicate we should either look deeper or change approaches.

So I believe that with this, which is Principle #4, and Principle #1, we already have a complete set of criteria for selecting White's moves. As for Black's, we are compelled to consider any that do not obviously result in += or better for White.

If += isn't realistic, call it as you prefer. Initiative? A little something?
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #460 - 01/02/16 at 19:04:26
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Quote:
Why are people asking questions about moves like 3... a5 and 3... f6? Do you think top GM's even have a DB on moves like this?

This is completely ridiculous and people should be focusing on the main lines!



Well, I understand what Stefan wrote in the previous post. But what you write is... ah, forget it.

Have you ever taken a closer look at the development of opening theory? You think your own behavior would have changed  anything in that development course? Would you have been a part of the indian evolution on 1.d4? Would you have found 3...a6 in the Slav worth playing? Would you have actively taken part in the development of say 3...c6 or 3...e5 in the Pirc? No, would you have accepted the Pirc at all?

When looking back in theoretical development: when would it have been time for you to quit the flow of sideline novelties to save the "mainlines"? Perhaps before Breyer's irritating jump back with Nc6-b8 in the Lopez? 

To change a question of your own:  Do you think you would have the slightest chance playing a top GM if he would play the ridiculous moves 3...a5 or 3...f6 against you?!

Nevertheless I wish you the best in discussing main lines. There too are loads of novelties but that allways need an open mind...
  

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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #459 - 01/02/16 at 18:46:46
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I would be happy to trot on (I did little to nothing in the first wave, but I was working on my book), but perhaps someone needs to organize an update on the status of the lines examined?

Also, what is the actual goal? I mean, at least for me, if you analyze anything deeply in enough, you'll likely find equality for Black in every line of the Ruy Lopez - I doubt 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5! is a forced win for White!
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #458 - 01/02/16 at 12:19:10
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This thread should continue in the spirit of the late Markovich, imo. May he rest in peace. We had our disagreements, but he wasn't shy of discussing offbeat lines. What we agreed on was that there must be someone who gives the talk a direction. Someone saying at a certain point: "we should stop here, this is '+=' enough for me. Let's move on to another line." That moment would have come relatively early with 3...f6, I guess.

motörhead wrote on 01/01/16 at 20:48:04:
I'm a bit confused why to first save e5 with f7-f6 and than to surrender that strengthened point with e5xd4 (your suggestion 14...exd4). Well yes, Nimzovich's "Sägestellung" against pawn e4...

It's hard for White to attack Black's structure c6, d6, f6, and there is enough room for black counterplay. Similar to the misjudged Englund Declined. As in "anything goes, I can even decline the Englund and keep a solid plus".
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #457 - 01/02/16 at 10:31:05
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Hi.

Quote:
Why are people asking questions about moves like 3... a5 and 3... f6?

Basically, for better or worse, because no one has pushed through rules preventing discussion and analysis of highly offbeat tries.

Quote:
Do you think top GM's even have a DB on moves like this?

No.

Quote:
This is completely ridiculous and people should be focusing on the main lines!

This...
or
Continuing with analysing black's various 3rd moves...
or
Checking lines already looked at.

Either way I think consolidation of results before moving on is very important (I don't think baking a mega PGN is enough on its own here).

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #456 - 01/02/16 at 05:36:05
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Why are people asking questions about moves like 3... a5 and 3... f6? Do you think top GM's even have a DB on moves like this?

This is completely ridiculous and people should be focusing on the main lines!
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #455 - 01/01/16 at 20:48:04
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 12/24/15 at 12:31:11:
I wonder whether I ever looked at 3...f6 again. Thought the analysis was in the same file as 3...Bb4, but there was only 3...Rb8!. [...] Basically my idea was: "static defences" like Qxf4 followed by d6 and f6 in the King's Gambit work, as what can White do? A few years later I understood that the answer to this rhetorical question was: White can do a lot. Even if the first move were OK, after 14...Nef4 followed by h5-h4, White has a ton of possibilities. I still can't find a clear refutation, but the whole concept is clearly very optimistic.

A few years later, after working on the Englund Gambit, I might have recommended 14...exd4! instead. The arrangement of pieces and pawns in the center is really similar to the Englund.


Yes that is the point of Steinitz' artistic, irritating, sometimes ridiculous approaches on his strongpoint e5 concept. He had quite some tries on that very subject, the one or the other even ending in complete reocupation of his back rank with his pieces...

But in fact f7-f6 takes at the earliest possibility the sting out of the spanish concept - the weakness e5 is covered.

This idea reurns in the Modern Steinitz Defence, Alapin Variation: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6 5.Bxc6 bxc6 6.d4 f6 (C73). Is it to bad?!

I'm a bit confused why to first save e5 with f7-f6 and than to surrender that strengthened point with e5xd4 (your suggestion 14...exd4). Well yes, Nimzovich's "Sägestellung" against pawn e4...

Stefan Buecker wrote on 12/24/15 at 12:31:11:
Whether all this is relevant at all for the assessment of 3...f6, I have my doubts... Several moves of Tarrasch were "pragmatic" (a3, Bc4, h3, Kh2), not necessarily the most challenging in a theoretical sense. So if the opponent is not a very strong player, maybe it can work.


Pragmatic, yes. After f7-f6, the Bb5 has played his mayor role, or am i wrong? Yes, due to the pin of the Nc6 he further put's a question to the ideal d7-d6 (but more than once that never the less may work as there are a7-a6 and b7-b5 to break the pin). Returning to c4 is natural, but a tempo down to the Italian (but a weakness up on a2-g8 - but is this too relevant?!). a2-a3 saves the italian like bishop (against Nc6-a5) and h2-h3 is... normal Lopez, isn't it.
The pragmatism bases on the work of the strongpoint e5. I don't see how this can be overruned. What are those challenging moves?! 
Browsing through Steintz' games with the strongpoint e5 concept he more than once ended in a sort of king's indian structure.
He had not too much luck with it, which may have its reasons in the exhaustive backward tended play - as for example Tarrasch - Steinitz shows.
At the end he surrendered the exaggerated attempts on it. May be a sign...
But as you Stefan showed with your 14...Nef4 idea there are more active concepts - which in return give white some prospects for play. "White has a ton of possibilities", well that is a bit much of it...

Stefan Buecker wrote on 12/24/15 at 12:31:11:
For a "theoretical" discussion, the Marshall Gambit should be a priority, but final conclusions are not easy to see. Presently I think Black is fine.


No, no that is not you Stefan.That is perhaps Max Euwe of the 1950s. Not only some selected main variations count... Not today.
Shall we really confine ourselfs to search for novelties in move 38 or later??

Remeber after all: Even Magnus Carlsen once played the North Sea Defence (1.e4 g6 2.d4 Nf6 - okay that's another topic but quite offside as well) against Aronian if I am right. He got his share of played, but lost, but not due to the opening.

  

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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #454 - 12/26/15 at 23:20:56
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CarriedbyGg wrote on 12/24/15 at 12:43:51:
Actually, I do not see the point behind f6 in the relatively simple line 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 f6 4. d4 and no matter wether Black takes to times or only one time (as let White get d5 in would trouble Black a bit) White should have a comfortable edge due to the weakening of the Black kingside and the lead in development.

The game Tarrasch - Steinitz shows that Steinitz was willing to play the position after d4-d5. So if 4.d4 Nge7 5.d5 a6 6.Bd3 Nb8, what do you get what you wouldn't in Tarrasch's move order? On the other side, 4.d4 gives Black a serious additional option in 4...exd4 5.Nxd4 Nxd4 6.Qxd4 Bd6, e.g. 7.Bc4 Ne7 8. Nc3 Be5 9.Qd1 c6 10.0-0 b5 11.Bb3 a5 12.a3 Ba6. Maybe 13.Qh5+ is good for White, but this kind of tactics can't be the "clear refutation" that you'd want.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #453 - 12/24/15 at 12:43:51
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Actually, I do not see the point behind f6 in the relatively simple line 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 f6 4. d4 and no matter wether Black takes to times or only one time (as let White get d5 in would trouble Black a bit) White should have a comfortable edge due to the weakening of the Black kingside and the lead in development.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #452 - 12/24/15 at 12:31:11
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motörhead wrote on 12/24/15 at 08:16:01:
As Stefan ist back on the scene, I take the opportunity to just repeat my last post, which was directed to him and stands unanswered.

What about 3...f6!??! in the Lopez?!
See previous post for details.
Thx and merry christmas.

I wonder whether I ever looked at 3...f6 again. Thought the analysis was in the same file as 3...Bb4, but there was only 3...Rb8!. Now I have to leave for Christmas festivities, so right now this has to suffice. Basically my idea was: "static defences" like Qxf4 followed by d6 and f6 in the King's Gambit work, as what can White do? A few years later I understood that the answer to this rhetorical question was: White can do a lot. Even if the first move were OK, after 14...Nef4 followed by h5-h4, White has a ton of possibilities. I still can't find a clear refutation, but the whole concept is clearly very optimistic.

A few years later, after working on the Englund Gambit, I might have recommended 14...exd4! instead. The arrangement of pieces and pawns in the center is really similar to the Englund.

Whether all this is relevant at all for the assessment of 3...f6, I have my doubts... Several moves of Tarrasch were "pragmatic" (a3, Bc4, h3, Kh2), not necessarily the most challenging in a theoretical sense. So if the opponent is not a very strong player, maybe it can work.



For a "theoretical" discussion, the Marshall Gambit should be a priority, but final conclusions are not easy to see. Presently I think Black is fine.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #451 - 12/24/15 at 09:34:04
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Jonathan Tait wrote on 12/24/15 at 09:22:59:
motörhead wrote on 02/01/15 at 20:54:01:
3... f6? (a normal question mark, not one judging the quality of the move -at least at first...)


to avoid confusion, I'd write it like this:

"3...f6 - ?"

Smiley



Write it as you like.

I tried to avoid that the move 3...f6 gets the question mark that is simply given as the normal mark at the end of a question...

As pointed out I'm at least not sure about this move. But Stefan had it in a quite positive conotation in the given source...
  

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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #450 - 12/24/15 at 09:22:59
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motörhead wrote on 02/01/15 at 20:54:01:
3... f6? (a normal question mark, not one judging the quality of the move -at least at first...)


to avoid confusion, I'd write it like this:

"3...f6 - ?"

Smiley
  

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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #449 - 12/24/15 at 08:16:01
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As Stefan ist back on the scene, I take the opportunity to just repeat my last post, which was directed to him and stands unanswered.

What about 3...f6!??! in the Lopez?!
See previous post for details.

Thx and merry christmas.
  

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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #448 - 02/01/15 at 20:54:01
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/24/11 at 17:42:29:
To study mainly the popular moves would, in my opinion, contradict Markovich's idea to "prove +=" for White. But I'll watch what happens. There ARE moves which are fine, only unusual and therefore unpopular. I believe that 3...Bc5 = is objectively best. I am not fond of Na5, g5, Bb4, f6, but 3...a5 deserves a look. - As arbiter we have engines, if we regard lines above, say, +0.35 (in R4) as "solved", fine with me.



Just for interest: What has changed your mind on 3... f6? (a normal question mark, not one judging the quality of the move -at least at first...).

As far as I remember your mind on it wasn't too bad in a special section of "Nordwalder Variante im Königsgambit". The insights you gave where interesting. Okay it was pre-computer era and there may be
improvements. And after all: Wasn't it about 4.a3, making place for Bb5-c4-a2? A bit slow...

I think, 4.d4 is more testing...
  

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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #447 - 06/28/14 at 06:27:03
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 10/30/11 at 14:21:00:
MNb wrote on 10/30/11 at 13:36:00:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 10/30/11 at 12:44:34:
In my opinion 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.Nc3 fxe4 5.Nxe4 Nf6 6.Nxf6+ Qxf6 7.Qe2 does not work, because 7...Be7 8.Bxc6 bxc6 is =.
I hope you will forgive my scepticism, but I need a little more to be convinced. OK, it wouldn't surprise me if accepting the pawn provides compensation (although this needs to be proven yet) but I quite like 9.d4. Three sample lines:
a) 9...exd4 10.Bg5 Qe6 11.Qxe6 dxe6 12.Bxe7 Kxe7 13.Nxd4 and White has a very nice and stable advantage, Janovsky-Tseshkovsky, Voskresensk 1992.
b) 9...O-O 10.Bg5 Qe6 (Qg6 11.Bxe7+ Re8 12.O-O Rxe7 13.Nxe5 is excellent for White as the pin always can be be resolved by Qc4+) 11.Bxe7 Qxe5 12.dxe5 and White is at least a bit better, Adorjan-Cortlever, Amsterdam 1970.
c) 9...Qg6 10.O-O d6 11.Qc4 d5 12.Qc3 exd4 13.Nxd4 Bd7 14.Re1 Qf6? (better Kf7 but 15.Bf4 remains nice for White; the Knight is not weaker than the Bishops, but Black's pawns are weaker than White's) 15.Nxc6 Qxc6 16.Qxg7 and White has the attack, Copar-Auzins, corr ICCF 1997.

13...c5!! =.

While preparing for yesterdays cupmatch, I bumbed on a very interesting new idea: 12.Qb3

Black can surely improve with 12. ... e4 but even then after 13.Ne5 Qe6 14.Qa4 Bb7 15.f4 0-0 16.Be3 Bd6 17.Rac1 and still a small pull. It is just a quick analysis more than sufficient for a rapid OTB game. Still it is worth a closer look especially as the other critical lines were not convincing either.

I also checked who the white player is and found out to my surprise that he is also from Belgium. He has no official rating and I've never heard about him but he does have on ficgs a remarkable record: http://www.ficgs.com/player_3862.html so 136 games without a loss !
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #446 - 02/10/13 at 15:15:01
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Stefan is now in action at the Chess Classic ELO Open, as proved by these moves (versus Parimarjan Negi) a couple of days ago:  1. e4 c5 2. a4.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #445 - 01/28/13 at 14:35:56
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I hope indeed that our chessfriend is well.

@Smyslov_Fan:  Notwithstanding that the Marshall is a tough nut, I don't think that many people will agree that White's d3 in the Spanish could possibly be "the best move from a theoretical perspective."
  

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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #444 - 01/27/13 at 01:00:46
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Markovich wrote on 01/26/13 at 15:42:20:
By the way, has anybody heard from our friend Stefan?  I sent him a message several days ago and have not heard back.


If you look at his website he scheduled a new issue of Kaissiber for April 2012 but nothing has happened. He also writes about an illness. I hope it hasn´t returned. Sad
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #443 - 01/26/13 at 19:33:06
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Markovich, you are right that d4 is more critical than d3. But if Black can reach equality, say in the Marshall, but it's not clear how Black can reach equality against d3, then d3 becomes the best move from a theoretical perspective.

The question is: can white find a usable advantage against the Marshall?
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #442 - 01/26/13 at 15:42:20
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That may be, but this mode of play says, "I'm not going to beat you because I'm White; I'm going to beat you because I'm Bogolyubov."  Carlsen in particular is well known for playing unassuming systems and just beating people with no help from theory.

This being a theoretical forum and the custruction of a Spanish repertoire being a theoretical pursuit, I think we should look for += or whatever approximates it most closely.  This is the >Spanish<, after all!

By the way, has anybody heard from our friend Stefan?  I sent him a message several days ago and have not heard back.
  

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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #441 - 01/25/13 at 18:48:13
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A lot of strong GMs, beginning with Carlsen, seem to be playing the d3 Spanish as White. It's a really slow system with many similarities to the Breyer Defense. And, just like the Breyer, the  player with the better sense of where the pieces belong in this pawn structure will win.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #440 - 01/21/13 at 19:08:31
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Yes, Kamsky's 11. Nxe5 Nxe5 12. Rxe5 Qd6! is fine too.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #439 - 01/21/13 at 11:13:36
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Markovich wrote on 01/20/13 at 21:30:12:
What is the current notion of Black's best play after 8.h3?  Is it so easy for him?


I would guess it's 8...Bb7 9. d3 d5 10.ed5 Nd5 11. Ne5 Nd4 for approximate equality and even 11...Ne5 seems to be fine for Black.

  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #438 - 01/20/13 at 21:30:12
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What is the current notion of Black's best play after 8.h3?  Is it so easy for him?
  

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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #437 - 01/13/13 at 23:16:19
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Ametanoitos wrote on 12/23/12 at 09:44:27:
So, we can go for the Main Line pawn grab but play d3 instead of d4. It looks like a decent practical try.

I don't think white has anything after for example 12.d3 Bd6 13.Re1 Bf5 14.Qf3 Qf6 15.Bxd5 cxd5 16.Bf4 Bxf4 17.Qxf4 d4
or did you have something else in mind?
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #436 - 12/23/12 at 09:44:27
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So, we can go for the Main Line pawn grab but play d3 instead of d4. It looks like a decent practical try.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #435 - 12/21/12 at 00:00:45
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I think 8.d4 gives white an edge if black takes the pawn but after 8..d6 we are forced to play c3-d4 main line instead of c3-h3 main line which might not be to everyone's liking (althought this variation is popular lately and serious try for white, it also cuts amount of work as there are no Breyer's, Zaitsev's, Chigorins etc which are all tough nuts to crack).
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #434 - 12/20/12 at 13:13:08
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Ametanoitos wrote on 12/07/12 at 10:06:50:
By the way, strong seems to be:

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Be7 6. Re1 b5 7. Bb3 O-O 8. c3 d5 9. exd5 Nxd5 10. Nxe5 Nxe5 11. Rxe5 c6 12. d4 Bd6 13. Re1 Qh4 14. g3 Qh3 15.Re4 g5 16. Qf1 Qh5 17. f3 Bf5 18. Nd2 Rae8 19. Rxe8 Rxe8 20. Ne4 Bxe4 21. fxe4 Rxe4 22. Bd1 g4 23. Bd2 c5 24. Qg2 Re6 25. Bb3 c4 26. Bc2 Ne3 27. Bxe3 Rxe3 28. Rf1 b4

(so far PFREN's analysis)

29. cxb4 Bxb4 30. Bd1! and White has some edge.

Any improvements?


I don't know that I see much advantage for White after 30...Rd3 31.Qb7 Rd2.  Do you? White's h-pawn must advance, either one or two squares, and then Black's g-pawn falls.  But Black's bishop goes to d6, and White doesn't seem to have the basis of a win, in my reckoning.

I think whatever we recommend shouldn't involve analysis out beyond move 30.  Either it should yield something resembling a stable advantage before then, or we should recommend an anti-Marshall, probably 8.h3.
« Last Edit: 12/20/12 at 16:07:42 by Markovich »  

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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #433 - 12/14/12 at 15:45:59
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I agree with punter there is no good way of tackling the marshall, you should start with the anti lines right away with either a4 or d3.  The lines in the marshall will not give white a good chess game even if he keeps an advantage.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #432 - 12/13/12 at 14:15:53
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Well, Re1 c3 setup is becoming a sideline these days in top GM practice but if you want to concentrate on that then fine. I just think it's not a practical choice.
If you find that analysis somehow along the way please link me. I spent some time banging my head vs Marshall so I am interested in that.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #431 - 12/13/12 at 12:17:25
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Punter, please take a look at the subject we are discussing. We were supposed to make a Spanish repertoire for White in the Spanish, so Marshall is quite an important subject we should concentrate at some point. Also, above (and in another thread i cannot remember now) me and FM Buecker gave analysis on 18...Nf6 and the conclusion was the White some some edge.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #430 - 12/10/12 at 03:00:44
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18...Nf6.

Imo you shouldn't concentrate on Marshall. It's extremely sound and basically a race who remembers more.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #429 - 12/07/12 at 10:06:50
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By the way, strong seems to be:

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Be7 6. Re1 b5 7. Bb3 O-O 8. c3 d5 9. exd5 Nxd5 10. Nxe5 Nxe5 11. Rxe5 c6 12. d4 Bd6 13. Re1 Qh4 14. g3 Qh3 15.Re4 g5 16. Qf1 Qh5 17. f3 Bf5 18. Nd2 Rae8 19. Rxe8 Rxe8 20. Ne4 Bxe4 21. fxe4 Rxe4 22. Bd1 g4 23. Bd2 c5 24. Qg2 Re6 25. Bb3 c4 26. Bc2 Ne3 27. Bxe3 Rxe3 28. Rf1 b4

(so far PFREN's analysis)

29. cxb4 Bxb4 30. Bd1! and White has some edge.

Any improvements?
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #428 - 12/06/12 at 17:24:05
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I cannot help but admire your work on this. There are many little details which i investigated but i didn't really find anything more than a symbolic edge for White. Maybe we should investigate this one:

Hotting, Arend
Thomson, Thomas
corr, 2004

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Be7 6. Re1 b5 7. Bb3 O-O 8. c3 d5 9. exd5 Nxd5 10. Nxe5 Nxe5 11. Rxe5 c6 12. d4 Bd6 13. Re1 Qh4 14. g3 Qh3 15.Re4 g5 16. Qf1 Qh5 17. f3 Bf5 18. Re1 Rae8 19. Nd2 Bd3 20. Qf2 Nf6 21. Re3 Rxe3 22. Qxe3 Qg6 23. Ne4 Bxe4 24. fxe4 Nxe4 25. a4 Re8 26. axb5 Bf4 27. Qd3 Bxc1 28. Rxc1 axb5 29. Rf1 Re7 30. Qe3 h6 31. g4 Kf8 32. d5 1-0

Please note that the same position can also arise by transposition of moves after 18.Nd2 Rae8 19.Re1.

Now that i think of it, it may be a more practical choice to choose the move order of the above game if someone wants to avoid the theory of the 18.Nd2 Nf6 line. Just an idea.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #427 - 09/12/12 at 11:42:25
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OK, here it is. It was done without much checking, so you'd better check it yourself, but I believe the variations given are quite valid. White has nothing- factly I think the whole variation is more tricky to handle properly as white.
Computers give at first a preponderance to white's pawn, but following natural moves they abruptly change their mind at some point. The Marshal is just too tough to die by such an unassuming line.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #426 - 09/12/12 at 08:16:16
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Vass wrote on 09/12/12 at 06:35:24:
PANFR wrote on 09/11/12 at 23:23:38:
Personally, I find the Marshal line given by Ametanoitos quite clever, but still offering no advantage at all to white.
17.f3 Bf5 18.Nd2 Rae8! and now:
- 19.Qf2?! Bxe4 20.fe4 f5! and Black is at least equal.
- 19.Bd1!? Bh3 20.Qf2 f5 21.Rxe8 Rxe8 22.a4 Re7! 23.Nb3 Qe8 24.Bd2 Bf4! was shortly drawn at a correspondence game. White can try to improve with 22.Nb3, but after 22...f4 23.g4 Qf7 24.Nd2 Qg6! 25.Ne4 Bc7 26.Nc5 h5 Black stands very well.
- 19.Rxe8 Rxe8 20.Ne4 Bxe4 21.fe4 Rxe4 22.Bd1 g4 has been played seven times (by transposition). White was not able to win a single game.

Well, in your line 19.Bd1!? Bh3 20.Qf2 f5 21.Rxe8 Rxe8 22.a4 Re7! 23.Nb3 Qe8 24.Bd2 Bf4! the move 21.Rxe8 is not forced at all. I think 21.Re2 is better instead.  Wink


Black still has strong counterplay by sensibly playing down the e-file, it seems.  I wouldn't worry a bit about such a computerized move, say after 21...Rxe2 22.Bxe2 Re8. I will post some analysis soon.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #425 - 09/12/12 at 06:35:24
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PANFR wrote on 09/11/12 at 23:23:38:
Personally, I find the Marshal line given by Ametanoitos quite clever, but still offering no advantage at all to white.
17.f3 Bf5 18.Nd2 Rae8! and now:
- 19.Qf2?! Bxe4 20.fe4 f5! and Black is at least equal.
- 19.Bd1!? Bh3 20.Qf2 f5 21.Rxe8 Rxe8 22.a4 Re7! 23.Nb3 Qe8 24.Bd2 Bf4! was shortly drawn at a correspondence game. White can try to improve with 22.Nb3, but after 22...f4 23.g4 Qf7 24.Nd2 Qg6! 25.Ne4 Bc7 26.Nc5 h5 Black stands very well.
- 19.Rxe8 Rxe8 20.Ne4 Bxe4 21.fe4 Rxe4 22.Bd1 g4 has been played seven times (by transposition). White was not able to win a single game.

Well, in your line 19.Bd1!? Bh3 20.Qf2 f5 21.Rxe8 Rxe8 22.a4 Re7! 23.Nb3 Qe8 24.Bd2 Bf4! the move 21.Rxe8 is not forced at all. I think 21.Re2 is better instead.  Wink
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #424 - 09/11/12 at 23:23:38
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Personally, I find the Marshal line given by Ametanoitos quite clever, but still offering no advantage at all to white.
17.f3 Bf5 18.Nd2 Rae8! and now:
- 19.Qf2?! Bxe4 20.fe4 f5! and Black is at least equal.
- 19.Bd1!? Bh3 20.Qf2 f5 21.Rxe8 Rxe8 22.a4 Re7! 23.Nb3 Qe8 24.Bd2 Bf4! was shortly drawn at a correspondence game. White can try to improve with 22.Nb3, but after 22...f4 23.g4 Qf7 24.Nd2 Qg6! 25.Ne4 Bc7 26.Nc5 h5 Black stands very well.
- 19.Rxe8 Rxe8 20.Ne4 Bxe4 21.fe4 Rxe4 22.Bd1 g4 has been played seven times (by transposition). White was not able to win a single game.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #423 - 08/04/12 at 21:06:55
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Ametanoitos wrote on 08/04/12 at 12:46:46:
OK, lets move on. Btw, did we "solve" 3...f5?

Yes, I think so, in the sense that White has +=.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #422 - 08/04/12 at 12:46:46
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OK, lets move on. Btw, did we "solve" 3...f5?
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #421 - 08/04/12 at 08:00:08
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Ender wrote on 08/03/12 at 08:37:36:
How about
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Bb4 4.c3 Ba5 5.Qa4 Nge7!?

I think white is better, but black is not lost yet.

The analysis in Bernhard Lach: Die Alapin-Variante in der Spanischen Eröffnung (Schwieberdingen 1995) goes 5...Nge7 6.Nxe5 Nxe5 7.Qxa5 N7c6 8.Qa4 Qg5. "Black has sufficient counterplay for the pawn, e.g. 9.0-0 Nf3+ 10.Kh1 Qf4" - Lach. Checking my analysis file, the critical reply is 9.Kf1!. White has no weakness which Black could easily attack. This is indeed one of the better variations for Black, but I haven't found equality, and +/- seems a fair assessment.

In my Marshall analysis, variation 30.axb5, White can try 38.Kf2 instead of 38.Bf4. Again I believe that Black holds, but that's not the point. Ametanoitos' suggestion must be assessed as +=, no question about it.
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #420 - 08/03/12 at 08:37:36
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 08/03/12 at 08:06:45:
Hadron wrote on 08/03/12 at 00:46:12:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 10/24/11 at 19:18:12:
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Bb4 4.c3 Ba5 5.Qa4 Bb6 6.d4 exd4 7.cxd4 Nge7 8.d5 Nb8 9.Bf4! is +/-. Thus 3...Rb8 must be preferred, again.

I am sure you are right….although two articles I have by Gerard Welling would tend to suggest there is scope for some investigation (and or improvement) on what you have given.

Not easy to cure the Alapin, but of course you can try. 7...Nge7 was my latest attempt, the line 7...d5 has other problems. Gerard's articles are great, because he considers many original analyses by Alapin. Very motivating for anyone with an interest in chess history. I have also studied the "large Alapin" 3...a6 4.Ba4 Bb4" and the "extra large Alapin XL" 3...a6 4.Ba4 b5 5.Bb3 Bb4!?, the topic is really too "large" for a debate on chesspub.  Smiley


How about
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Bb4 4.c3 Ba5 5.Qa4 Nge7!?

I think white is better, but black is not lost yet.
  

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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #419 - 08/03/12 at 08:06:45
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Hadron wrote on 08/03/12 at 00:46:12:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 10/24/11 at 19:18:12:
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Bb4 4.c3 Ba5 5.Qa4 Bb6 6.d4 exd4 7.cxd4 Nge7 8.d5 Nb8 9.Bf4! is +/-. Thus 3...Rb8 must be preferred, again.

I am sure you are right….although two articles I have by Gerard Welling would tend to suggest there is scope for some investigation (and or improvement) on what you have given.

Not easy to cure the Alapin, but of course you can try. 7...Nge7 was my latest attempt, the line 7...d5 has other problems. Gerard's articles are great, because he considers many original analyses by Alapin. Very motivating for anyone with an interest in chess history. I have also studied the "large Alapin" 3...a6 4.Ba4 Bb4" and the "extra large Alapin XL" 3...a6 4.Ba4 b5 5.Bb3 Bb4!?, the topic is really too "large" for a debate on chesspub.  Smiley

Edit: The sentence about 7...d5 was nonsense.
« Last Edit: 08/04/12 at 07:33:34 by Stefan Buecker »  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #418 - 08/03/12 at 00:46:12
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Ametanoitos wrote on 08/02/12 at 00:46:19:
Oh, no! Not again!  Tongue

‘fraid so  Cheesy

Stefan Buecker wrote on 08/02/12 at 08:28:03:
Hadron wrote on 08/01/12 at 22:52:42:
Really? Alapin's Attack is perfectly playable.

See reply #267.

You mean…

Stefan Buecker wrote on 10/24/11 at 19:18:12:
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Bb4 4.c3 Ba5 5.Qa4 Bb6 6.d4 exd4 7.cxd4 Nge7 8.d5 Nb8 9.Bf4! is +/-. Thus 3...Rb8 must be preferred, again.

I am sure you are right….although two articles I have by Gerard Welling would tend to suggest there is scope for some investigation (and or improvement) on what you have given.
  

I'm reminded again of something Short wrote recently, approximately "The biggest fallacy in chess is the quasi-religious belief in the primacy of the opening."
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #417 - 08/02/12 at 18:55:02
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 08/02/12 at 08:28:03:
Ametanoitos, your Marshall recommendation is excellent. Of course a draw should still be possible, but it is a hard nut. 

Silicon believes it can hold the draw. But it is painful to watch, and I think in practice White should just be fine.

  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #416 - 08/02/12 at 08:28:03
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Hadron wrote on 08/01/12 at 22:52:42:
Really? Alapin's Attack is perfectly playable.

See reply #267.

Ametanoitos, your Marshall recommendation is excellent. Of course a draw should still be possible, but it is a hard nut.
  
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Ametanoitos
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #415 - 08/02/12 at 00:46:19
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Oh, no! Not again!  Tongue
  
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Re: Spanish repertoire
Reply #414 - 08/01/12 at 22:52:42
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