Don't worry, Ametanoitos... the army isn't such a big annoyance nowadays. Back in 1986, I had to stay there for 28 months... 

TN wrote on 11/26/11 at 23:54:09:

Yeah I know, there's a similar plan against      8.Qf3. But I'm not sure of it here.

sloughter wrote on 11/26/11 at 16:12:38:


Is 8.Qf3 even on topic?

But 8.Qf3 Be7 9.Be2 O-O 10.Nh3 and now 10...f5 appears to me to be an illegal move.

As Black I would prefer 10...e4 now.  Less good seems 10...Bg4, not because of 11.Qg3 Bxe2 when White loses his castling priviliges, but because of 11.Qd3, which looks a little better for White than after 10...e4.  Are we on the same page?

Sometimes I wonder if we're talking about the same game.

But I imagine that I'm not the only forum visitor who is growing weary of repeated arguments here that 8.Bd3 or 8.Qf3, or similar, refutes the Two Knights, arising from the inability of some club-level player and his engine to see Black's compensation.

But if anyone thinks that White is doing well in these lines I would strongly urge him to play them and discover for himself just how much comp Black has.

@TN: I don't understand 8...g6.  Why spend time on a pawn move that doesn't seem particularly necessary?

Sorry not to respond to 8...g6, which I'll look at later.

Whether compensation is "nebulous" or not is entirely a matter of judgment. They say everything in specificity in chess, but when I play chess, I find I often have to rely on my judgment. 

To me, Black's compensation looks good after 8.Bd3 Nd5.  Remarks above about there being no point in playing this move reveal, in my view, a lack of understanding of this game.  Just possibly it is not the best move on the board at this particular moment; but it is certainly a highly thematic move.

Since no one has proposed dismissing out of hand either 8.Qf3 or 8.Bd3, I fail to understand why remarks above asserting the inadvisability of dismissing these moves were made. The question has been not whether 8.Bd3 can be dismissed, but whether it
is likely to be good chess play.  Obvious as Black in difficult systems like the Two Knights, one has to prepare even for suboptimal play. One has to prepare for 5...Na5 6.d3 for example, a move that superficially has more to recommend it than 8.Bd3, yet which happens not to work.

Both 8.Bd3 and 8.Qf3 are interesting. I believe Black is OK in both, but it would be silly to discard them based on silicon based analysis.
I also had the impression that 8.Bd3 does not look like a sane chess move, but as far as a move does not lose by force, it has to be taken seriously.

Thx for the link, trw.

I shoulda guessed there'd be quite a bit of conversation about 8.Bd3 in part because it's counter-intuitive ("it doesn't look like chess" to Markovich), and yet White gets a material edge for vague compensation according to the other thread.

Even so, I still prefer 8.Bd3 to 8.Qf3. I doubt either of these will become the "Main line" of the Two Knights Defense any time soon.

I wonder, in what world is 8.Qf3 considered the main line of the Two Knights Defense?

ECO considers 8.Be2 to be the main line, and the vast majority of GM games have featured 8.Be2 over 8.Qf3, with much better practical results for white historically.

Quote:


After 8.Qf3 Be7 9.h4  h6 10.Ne4 Nd5, I don't see how White gets a + advantage, even by an eventual 0-0-0 and g4. White's first problem is what to do with the light-squared Bishop, his second is that castling Q-side will take quite a while. Black doesn't have to sit back, castle into an attack, and wait to be mated. For instance, 11.Be2 0-0 12.d3 f5 and White won't be getting g4 in any time soon and his pieces lack coordination.


I'm more curious about 8.Bd3 intending 9.Qf3. Here's how David Navara played 8.Bd3 in a losing effort:

sloughter wrote on 08/01/11 at 00:30:39:

It's just a computer, but Houdini gives this line as its PV (I let it go to 20 ply for every move):

10...Nd5 11.g4 f5 12.gxf5 Bxf5 13.d3 Nb4 14.Na3 Bxd3 15.Qg2 Bxe2 16.Kxe2 Qb6 17.Be3 Qa6+ 18.Ke1 Nd5

and if I had to pick a side in the ensuing position, I'd pick Black. Any improvements for White along the way?