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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C10-C14: 3.Nc3 Nf6 Question....... (Read 24303 times)
XChess1971
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Re: C10-C14: 3.Nc3 Nf6 Question.......
Reply #48 - 08/15/11 at 20:24:04
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TN wrote on 08/15/11 at 18:06:28:
XChess1971 wrote on 08/15/11 at 14:12:59:
Which one is that move that I am asking for help?
Any other great ideas SF?


Move 4 and 7.



Well I was told that 4.e5 was mostly played. I chose 4.Bg5. Suddenly, someone said 7.Qd3, I chose 7.Nf3.
Under ICCF people play different ways. The choice of one variation or another into an opening or a different one should not be a big issue. The issue comes when I ask you to ANALYZE the game for me. People play team tournaments, under which every team has a captain. Does it mean that a member shouldn't consult the choice of opening? If a game is in a middle game position that's completely different.
I don't get surprised by the amount of aficionados in here.
  
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Re: C10-C14: 3.Nc3 Nf6 Question.......
Reply #47 - 08/15/11 at 18:06:28
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XChess1971 wrote on 08/15/11 at 14:12:59:
Which one is that move that I am asking for help?
Any other great ideas SF?


Move 4 and 7.

  

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Re: C10-C14: 3.Nc3 Nf6 Question.......
Reply #46 - 08/15/11 at 14:12:59
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Bibs wrote on 08/15/11 at 01:07:15:
Anyhow, regarding chess not OP's crass rudeness.

Good sources:

Tim Harding's older book on the Classical. Very good for ideas. Gives the background.
Update with Jacobs(Tait's?) later book.
Use ChessPub, then off you go.



Which one is that move that I am asking for help?
Any other great ideas SF?
  
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Re: C10-C14: 3.Nc3 Nf6 Question.......
Reply #45 - 08/15/11 at 01:07:15
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Anyhow, regarding chess not OP's crass rudeness.

Good sources:

Tim Harding's older book on the Classical. Very good for ideas. Gives the background.
Update with Jacobs(Tait's?) later book.
Use ChessPub, then off you go.

  
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XChess1971
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Re: C10-C14: 3.Nc3 Nf6 Question.......
Reply #44 - 08/15/11 at 00:50:17
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 08/15/11 at 00:17:57:
Since you asked, even though you are the one playing on that site and should know the code of conduct for players on that site:

2. Guidelines for Players/Team Captains
...It is expected that players will decide the moves for themselves. It is unacceptable behaviour to
have someone else play your games.
The whole ICCF ratings and titles system relies on the
assumption that games are played by the players named in the starting lists (or approved
substitutes).
(Source: http://www.iccf.com/rules/ICCFCodeofConductGuidelines-01012005.pdf )


Smyslov_Fan I wonder what kind of rating and title you have in chess.
Did I ask anybody to play for me?

I am gonna quote something from Einstein: ""Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe"."
  
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Re: C10-C14: 3.Nc3 Nf6 Question.......
Reply #43 - 08/15/11 at 00:17:57
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Since you asked, even though you are the one playing on that site and should know the code of conduct for players on that site:

2. Guidelines for Players/Team Captains
...It is expected that players will decide the moves for themselves. It is unacceptable behaviour to
have someone else play your games.
The whole ICCF ratings and titles system relies on the
assumption that games are played by the players named in the starting lists (or approved
substitutes).
(Source: http://www.iccf.com/rules/ICCFCodeofConductGuidelines-01012005.pdf )
  
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XChess1971
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Re: C10-C14: 3.Nc3 Nf6 Question.......
Reply #42 - 08/14/11 at 22:22:05
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 08/14/11 at 20:18:39:
XChess1971 wrote on 08/14/11 at 17:12:02:
Oh Lord! Do we have to go back to this again?
...And I won't answer any more because I already got tired of some people nonsense.





Well, I get that you don't want to answer any more. Of course, you could simply have stated which site your game is being played on. But I strongly suspect that it is an online site that has specific, clear rules against outside assistance, such as chess.com or USCF's correspondence website.

Here's what the USCF site has to say:

3. You may consult chess books and periodicals but not
other players. You cannot use a computer or computer program
(chessplaying algorithms) to evaluate a game, but you
may use computers for record keeping and databases.
(Source: http://main.uschess.org/content/view/7521/393/ )


Smyslov Fan my game is not being played in the USCF. It is played on ICCF. Find a rule there. Moreover World Champions have used Nalimov Tables for chess endings. Please, let me go!

  
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Re: C10-C14: 3.Nc3 Nf6 Question.......
Reply #41 - 08/14/11 at 20:18:39
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XChess1971 wrote on 08/14/11 at 17:12:02:
Oh Lord! Do we have to go back to this again?
...And I won't answer any more because I already got tired of some people nonsense.





Well, I get that you don't want to answer any more. Of course, you could simply have stated which site your game is being played on. But I strongly suspect that it is an online site that has specific, clear rules against outside assistance, such as chess.com or USCF's correspondence website.

Here's what the USCF site has to say:

3. You may consult chess books and periodicals but not
other players. You cannot use a computer or computer program
(chessplaying algorithms) to evaluate a game, but you
may use computers for record keeping and databases.
(Source: http://main.uschess.org/content/view/7521/393/ )
  
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Re: C10-C14: 3.Nc3 Nf6 Question.......
Reply #40 - 08/14/11 at 17:12:02
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dom wrote on 08/14/11 at 09:08:25:
Quote:
BPaulsen is right I asked for some advice only. Actually I am playing a correspondence game. So far it will require the most from me. It went 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 dxe4 5.Nxe4 Be7 6.Bxf6 gxf6. I am going to have to work very hard on this position.
I don't know the updated theoretical evaluation. So it will be a tough one. Suggestions will be welcome.


Up is **your** post...and you clearly asked for an advice in one corr. game.

Forbidden by rules as given in my previous. I don't believe other members want flaming...they want only to warn you that no answer will not be given (despite your "honesty" to have written that it's about currently played game)....because of to be ethic/fair with your opponent.

I will stop now, because of offtopic chat.





Oh Lord! Do we have to go back to this again?
Can you tell me dom what kind of institution is that WCCF? Who from the well known strong correspondence players play there? Because I don't. When was it founded? If you are a member from that website, maybe you want to keep "those rules" for yourself. Because as far as I know WCCF is not the most representative form of correspondence chess. And I won't answer any more because I already got tired of some people nonsense.




  
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Re: C10-C14: 3.Nc3 Nf6 Question.......
Reply #39 - 08/14/11 at 09:08:25
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Quote:
BPaulsen is right I asked for some advice only. Actually I am playing a correspondence game. So far it will require the most from me. It went 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 dxe4 5.Nxe4 Be7 6.Bxf6 gxf6. I am going to have to work very hard on this position.
I don't know the updated theoretical evaluation. So it will be a tough one. Suggestions will be welcome.


Up is **your** post...and you clearly asked for an advice in one corr. game.

Forbidden by rules as given in my previous. I don't believe other members want flaming...they want only to warn you that no answer will not be given (despite your "honesty" to have written that it's about currently played game)....because of to be ethic/fair with your opponent.

I will stop now, because of offtopic chat.



  

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Re: C10-C14: 3.Nc3 Nf6 Question.......
Reply #38 - 08/14/11 at 08:56:20
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Bibs wrote on 08/14/11 at 04:02:53:
XChess1971 wrote on 08/14/11 at 02:47:42:
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 08/13/11 at 18:59:04:
XChess1971 wrote on 08/13/11 at 14:54:44:
BPaulsen is right I asked for some advice only. Actually I am playing a correspondence game. So far it will require the most from me. It went 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 dxe4 5.Nxe4 Be7 6.Bxf6 gxf6. I am going to have to work very hard on this position.
I don't know the updated theoretical evaluation. So it will be a tough one. Suggestions will be welcome.


Asking for outside help in an ongoing correspondence game is against the rules in almost every correspondence venue.



Since when it is like that Smyslov_Fan? So are you gonna tell me that every body must turn off their computers? People shouldn't ask FMs, IMs, GMs, etc., etc. etc?
Where did you get that from? Or better said what exactly you meant by your posting?
In here I only asked advice on what variation would be interesting to play against black in a french. Have I asked anybody to analyse for me?
For your information if you never played correspondence. Since forever chess players have used outside help. Of course, we all know that you are supposed to play on your own. Maybe you wanna explain us how could we avoid that a guy that is on the other side of the planet uses a strong computer, a GM, an IM or a FM.


Oh, do behave. I imagine it happens, but it is unethical.
SF's point, delicately expressed was, I think: you may behave in such a way elsewhere if you must, but not here. So, don't do it here. Let's be fair, let's be nice Smiley


Bibs are you reading right? Or do I have to retype it for you? Am I asking you or anybody to analyse for me?
People suggest a line of play, coaches suggest the same, etc. etc. etc.
Before I have seen posting from other people asking what is good against certain opening?
In my case, like in many other postings from other people I asked what could be good against certain variation of he french.
If you don't know anything about correspondence, maybe you should stay away.
  
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Re: C10-C14: 3.Nc3 Nf6 Question.......
Reply #37 - 08/14/11 at 08:52:50
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Quote:
Quote:
Asking for outside help in an ongoing correspondence game is against the rules in almost every correspondence venue.


Since when it is like that Smyslov_Fan? So are you gonna tell me that every body must turn off their computers? People shouldn't ask FMs, IMs, GMs, etc., etc. etc?
Where did you get that from?


@XChess1971:  It will be better to know the exact printed rules you have to apply as correspondance player...but in main cases, yes SF is right.

Read for example here, from http://www.ewccf.com/rules.htm:

Quote:
8. CONSULTATION:
a. Players are free to consult chess publications or literature, in printed or electronic form. Advise from another chess player is strictly forbidden.
b. The use of a chess engine (such as Chessmaster, Fritz, Rebel, etc.) or any other form of electronic consultation is strictly forbidden.


You have answers for your questions:
- "Since then ?" : maybe since very long time, even before computer ages, with postal corr games
'- "People must turn off computer" : yes,..,but only for the "analysis" part of chessplaying, not for the widely public knowledge you can get....an advice from private chessfriends are obviously not included in that case (put in bold above).

Common sense apply for corr.rules: what you cannot get while seating in person in one tournament venue...you should not permitted to get it in corr. game.

You surely understand that if you allow computer helped play...you merely will get in short time only chess engines games ("avatar" or "fake" corr.players.... the real ones being those who use own brain)...and it's not the goal of corr.play


  

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Re: C10-C14: 3.Nc3 Nf6 Question.......
Reply #36 - 08/14/11 at 04:02:53
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XChess1971 wrote on 08/14/11 at 02:47:42:
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 08/13/11 at 18:59:04:
XChess1971 wrote on 08/13/11 at 14:54:44:
BPaulsen is right I asked for some advice only. Actually I am playing a correspondence game. So far it will require the most from me. It went 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 dxe4 5.Nxe4 Be7 6.Bxf6 gxf6. I am going to have to work very hard on this position.
I don't know the updated theoretical evaluation. So it will be a tough one. Suggestions will be welcome.


Asking for outside help in an ongoing correspondence game is against the rules in almost every correspondence venue.



Since when it is like that Smyslov_Fan? So are you gonna tell me that every body must turn off their computers? People shouldn't ask FMs, IMs, GMs, etc., etc. etc?
Where did you get that from? Or better said what exactly you meant by your posting?
In here I only asked advice on what variation would be interesting to play against black in a french. Have I asked anybody to analyse for me?
For your information if you never played correspondence. Since forever chess players have used outside help. Of course, we all know that you are supposed to play on your own. Maybe you wanna explain us how could we avoid that a guy that is on the other side of the planet uses a strong computer, a GM, an IM or a FM.


Oh, do behave. I imagine it happens, but it is unethical.
SF's point, delicately expressed was, I think: you may behave in such a way elsewhere if you must, but not here. So, don't do it here. Let's be fair, let's be nice Smiley
« Last Edit: 08/14/11 at 05:52:57 by Bibs »  
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Re: C10-C14: 3.Nc3 Nf6 Question.......
Reply #35 - 08/14/11 at 02:47:42
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 08/13/11 at 18:59:04:
XChess1971 wrote on 08/13/11 at 14:54:44:
BPaulsen is right I asked for some advice only. Actually I am playing a correspondence game. So far it will require the most from me. It went 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 dxe4 5.Nxe4 Be7 6.Bxf6 gxf6. I am going to have to work very hard on this position.
I don't know the updated theoretical evaluation. So it will be a tough one. Suggestions will be welcome.


Asking for outside help in an ongoing correspondence game is against the rules in almost every correspondence venue.



Since when it is like that Smyslov_Fan? So are you gonna tell me that every body must turn off their computers? People shouldn't ask FMs, IMs, GMs, etc., etc. etc?
Where did you get that from? Or better said what exactly you meant by your posting?
In here I only asked advice on what variation would be interesting to play against black in a french. Have I asked anybody to analyse for me?
For your information if you never played correspondence. Since forever chess players have used outside help. Of course, we all know that you are supposed to play on your own. Maybe you wanna explain us how could we avoid that a guy that is on the other side of the planet uses a strong computer, a GM, an IM or a FM.
  
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Re: C10-C14: 3.Nc3 Nf6 Question.......
Reply #34 - 08/13/11 at 18:59:04
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XChess1971 wrote on 08/13/11 at 14:54:44:
BPaulsen is right I asked for some advice only. Actually I am playing a correspondence game. So far it will require the most from me. It went 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 dxe4 5.Nxe4 Be7 6.Bxf6 gxf6. I am going to have to work very hard on this position.
I don't know the updated theoretical evaluation. So it will be a tough one. Suggestions will be welcome.


Asking for outside help in an ongoing correspondence game is against the rules in almost every correspondence venue.

  
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Re: C10-C14: 3.Nc3 Nf6 Question.......
Reply #33 - 08/13/11 at 18:04:12
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XChess1971 wrote on 08/13/11 at 14:54:44:
BPaulsen is right I asked for some advice only. Actually I am playing a correspondence game. So far it will require the most from me. It went 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 dxe4 5.Nxe4 Be7 6.Bxf6 gxf6. I am going to have to work very hard on this position.
I don't know the updated theoretical evaluation. So it will be a tough one. Suggestions will be welcome.


If you're accurate you can expect a nice edge. I won't comment further since the position has not advanced further in your correspondence game (or at least you haven't said it has).

In before someone says, "Morozevich played it, it must be good! It has equal theoretical standing to Bxf6!" based on a terrible use of statistics.
  

2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE.

FIDE based on just 27 games.
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Re: C10-C14: 3.Nc3 Nf6 Question.......
Reply #32 - 08/13/11 at 16:08:29
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One nice thing about playing 3..Nf6 is that after 4.Bb5 Black can choose between three sound continuations, each with a very different character, depending on the tournament situation, the opponent, or Black’s mood.

Some pretty strong players, in addition to Korchnoi, include the Classical in their repertoire. The women’s world champion Hou Yifan, Tukmakov and Akobian are all pretty strong players.

[Event "FIDE Women's Grand Prix"]
[Site "Rostov-on-Don RUS"]
[Date "2011.08.09"]
[Round "7"]
[White "E Kovalevskaya"]
[Black "Hou Yifan"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2427"]
[BlackElo "2575"]
[ECO "C14"]
[EventDate "2011.08.02"]
[PlyCount "132"]

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Be7 5.e5 Nfd7 6.Bxe7 Qxe7 7.f4 a6 8.Nf3 c5 9.dxc5 Nc6 10.Bd3 Nxc5
11.0-0 Bd7 12.Ne2 f5 13.exf6 gxf6 14.Ned4 Nxd4 15.Nxd4 0-0-0 16.Qe1 Rhe8 17.Qe3 Qd6 18.Rae1 e5
19.fxe5 fxe5 20.Nf5 Qc7 21.b4 Nxd3 22.cxd3 Kb8 23.Rc1 Bc6 24.d4 exd4 25.Qxd4 Re4 26.Qf2 d4 27.Ng3
Re7 28.Rcd1 d3 29.Rd2 Ka8 30.Qc5 Re5 31.Qf2 Bb5 32.Qf4 Qc3 33.h3 Bc6 34.Kh2 Red5 35.Rff2 h5 36.Qh4
Re8 37.Qf4 Bb5 38.Qh4 Qc7 39.Qf4 Qxf4 40.Rxf4 Re2 41.Nf1 Rde5 42.Kg1 Ka7 43.Rf2 R2e4 44.a3 Re1 45.a4
Bxa4 46.Rxd3 R5e4 47.Kh2 Rxb4 48.Ng3 Re5 49.Nf5 a5 50.Nd6 Bc6 51.Nf7 Rd5 52.Re3 a4 53.Ne5 Bb5 54.g4
hxg4 55.hxg4 Rb3 56.Rxb3 axb3 57.Nf3 Bd3 58.Ne1 Bg6 59.Rb2 Rd1 60.Ng2 Rb1 61.Rxb1 Bxb1 62.Ne3 Bc2
63.Nc4 Ka6 64.Kg3 Kb5 65.Nb2 Kb4 66.Kf4 b5
0-1

[Event "Chess Cruise Tournament"]
[Site "Odessa/Istanbul UKR/TUR"]
[Date "2006.08.30"]
[Round "5"]
[White "Vassily Ivanchuk"]
[Black "V Tukmakov"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[WhiteElo "2734"]
[BlackElo "2560"]
[ECO "C14"]
[EventDate "2006.08.30"]
[PlyCount "78"]

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Be7 5.e5 Nfd7 6.Bxe7 Qxe7 7.f4 a6 8.Nf3 c5 9.dxc5 Nc6 10.Bd3 Qxc5
11.Qd2 b5 12.0-0-0 0-0 13.h4 Qe7 14.Ne2 Nc5 15.Ned4 Nb4 16.Bxh7+ Kxh7 17.a3 a5 18.axb4 axb4 19.b3
Ra2 20.Kb1 Qa7 21.Qxb4 Bd7 22.Kc1 Rc8 23.Rhe1 Ra1+ 24.Kd2 Ne4+ 25.Ke3 Rxd1 26.Rxd1 Rxc2 27.Qe7 b4
28.Ng5+ Nxg5 29.hxg5 Rc3+ 30.Kf2 Kg6 31.Qxb4 Qa2+ 32.Kg1 Qb2 33.Kh2 Re3 34.Qd2 Qxd2 35.Rxd2 f6
36.gxf6 gxf6 37.exf6 Kxf6 38.b4 e5 39.fxe5+ Kxe5
1/2-1/2

[Event "World Open"]
[Site "Philadelphia USA"]
[Date "2008.07.05"]
[Round "7"]
[White "Melikset Khachiyan"]
[Black "Varuzhan Akobian"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2504"]
[BlackElo "2610"]
[ECO "C14"]
[EventDate "2008.07.02"]
[PlyCount "46"]

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Be7 5.e5 Nfd7 6.Bxe7 Qxe7 7.f4 a6 8.Nf3 c5 9.Qd2 Nc6 10.0-0-0 b5
11.dxc5 Nxc5 12.Bd3 b4 13.Ne2 0-0 14.Kb1 a5 15.Ned4 Nxd4 16.Nxd4 Ba6 17.Bxa6 Rxa6 18.h4 Ne4 19.Qe3
a4 20.Ne2 b3 21.cxb3 axb3 22.Qxb3 Qa7 23.Nc1 Rb8
0-1

[Event "Tradewise Gibraltar"]
[Site "Caleta ENG"]
[Date "2011.01.25"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Ismael Karim"]
[Black "Varuzhan Akobian"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2375"]
[BlackElo "2618"]
[ECO "C14"]
[EventDate "2011.01.25"]
[PlyCount "54"]

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Be7 5.e5 Nfd7 6.Bxe7 Qxe7 7.Qd2 a6 8.Nd1 c5 9.c3 Nc6 10.f4 f5 11.Nf3
b5 12.Nf2 0-0 13.Be2 Rb8 14.0-0 a5 15.Kh1 Ba6 16.g4 Nb6 17.dxc5 Nc4 18.Bxc4 dxc4 19.gxf5 Bb7 20.Ne4
Nxe5 21.fxe5 Bxe4 22.f6 gxf6 23.Rae1 Bd5 24.Kg1 Rb7 25.Qf2 Kh8 26.Qh4 Qxc5+ 27.Qd4 Qxd4+
0-1


  

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Re: C10-C14: 3.Nc3 Nf6 Question.......
Reply #31 - 08/13/11 at 16:01:52
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The best I can offer about that position is that its hard Smiley A lot of rather typically mad Morosevich games a little bit back with a6/b5 ideas, but some older lines too etc.

Actually tried it with black the once, got horribly mashed and decide that it was best left to Moro Wink
  
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Re: C10-C14: 3.Nc3 Nf6 Question.......
Reply #30 - 08/13/11 at 15:56:33
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XChess1971 wrote on 08/13/11 at 14:54:44:
I asked for some advice only.

6...gxf6 is an obvious sign Black wants to win.
7.Nf3 is most popular, but you might consider Bronstein's 7.Qd3.
  

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Re: C10-C14: 3.Nc3 Nf6 Question.......
Reply #29 - 08/13/11 at 15:50:15
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XChess1971 wrote on 08/13/11 at 14:54:44:
BPaulsen is right I asked for some advice only. Actually I am playing a correspondence game. So far it will require the most from me. It went 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 dxe4 5.Nxe4 Be7 6.Bxf6 gxf6. I am going to have to work very hard on this position.
I don't know the updated theoretical evaluation. So it will be a tough one. Suggestions will be welcome.


I forgot I am playing whie.
  
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Re: 3.Nc3 Nf6 Question.......
Reply #28 - 08/13/11 at 15:36:14
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BPaulsen wrote on 08/12/11 at 21:19:49:
ask yourself why the Classical's popularity remains way the hell behind the Burn and MacCutcheon if it were all that great from a theoretical (in contrast to the Burn) or practical perspective (in contrast to the MacCutcheon).

Now that's the kind of statement I like.

Classical (including the Alekhine-Chatard etc.): 375 games.
Burn (including ...gxf6): 945 games.
MacCutcheon: 477 games.

Both players ELO 2400+, games since 2001. Looks like you are slightly overestimating the popularity of the MacCutcheon.
Also interesting is that the overall scores of the three are almost the same: 55% for 4...dxe4 and 56% for the other two.
Of course none of this can overrule the argument of old fashioned painstaking analysis. Mine (which is not painstaking at all, so most likely contains lots of holes) suggests that Black has enough counterplay in the Classical with 7...a6. So I tried it in corr. chess. I found out the hard way how easy it was to go downhill from the moment I thought I had reached equality.
As the Burn doesn't provide enough winning chances I have turned to 3...Bb4. That one has the additional feature that one more pair of light pieces remains on the board compared to the MacCutcheon.

My advise to XChess: while I have an instinctive preference for 4.Bg5 the objective data (statistics plús general analysis) suggest that 4.e5 is the better choice. With statistics I mean that 4.e5 Nfd7 5.f4 has a considerably lower drawing rate.
  

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Re: C10-C14: 3.Nc3 Nf6 Question.......
Reply #27 - 08/13/11 at 14:54:44
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BPaulsen is right I asked for some advice only. Actually I am playing a correspondence game. So far it will require the most from me. It went 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 dxe4 5.Nxe4 Be7 6.Bxf6 gxf6. I am going to have to work very hard on this position.
I don't know the updated theoretical evaluation. So it will be a tough one. Suggestions will be welcome.
  
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Re: C10-C14: 3.Nc3 Nf6 Question.......
Reply #26 - 08/13/11 at 08:20:24
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Interesting stats on my database of twic's actually. I know they're very dangerous to take too seriously but they might help suggest there something 'real' behind this very mild scepticism.

A few thousand games on each so not horribly out these. White percentages: 4.. Bb4 @53%, 4 .. de @55%, 4.. Be7 @60%.

More relevantly perhaps is the average black elo's playing like that: 4.. de 2402 (Perf 2359), 4.. Bb4 @2317 (Perf 2297), 4.. Be7 2260 (Perf 2212).

Does that mean very much? No not really, but the average elo does suggest a general mild distrust of it by stronger players and the score perhaps suggest some sort of reason.

Neither is bad of course, but we're not saying its bad!
  
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Re: 3.Nc3 Nf6 Question.......
Reply #25 - 08/13/11 at 02:20:08
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Edited:
Moderator's Note:
Please keep it civil!
~SF August 12, 2011
  
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Re: 3.Nc3 Nf6 Question.......
Reply #24 - 08/13/11 at 01:20:29
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bigbelly wrote on 08/13/11 at 01:11:49:
Bpaulsen, earlier you stated “Korchnoi is a hardcore MacCutcheon advocate these days.’
So I thought it might be relevant to point out that Korchnoi played the classical about as often as the Mac - with similar success. Just because the Mac is more popular at the moment doesn’t mean much - it’s more just a matter of fashion.


Oh lord. Where to start...

#1) Going by the chesslive.de database he plays the MacCutcheon more, so nice try on the equivocation. He also plays the Burn more often than the Classical.

The line is so awesome that every time he gets the chance to play it...he usually avoids it for other options! Grin

#2) Fashion is dictated heavily by current theoretical assessment. GMs do not make it a habit to face other GMs of equal strength in lines that are under pressure, because that'd make zero sense.

#3) If a GM does use a line under pressure it's usually against a lower rated opponent. Where oh where can I find an example of this? ... Oh yeah! It's in every single game you cited. Grin

Quote:
You claim that White can force a greater edge against the Classical than against the Burn or Mac, but you refuse to back it up with variations. I believe you like the Burn or Mac better than the classical, but so what.


I don't need to back it up with variations because anyone can do the research themselves, plus that isn't the point of the thread. Did you see the thread-starter asking for long variations? No, you didn't.

And if you knew anything at all you'd know I don't really particularly like anything when it comes to theoretical assessments.

...
Edited:
Comments deleted by SF, 8/12/2011
« Last Edit: 08/13/11 at 02:31:08 by Smyslov_Fan »  

2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE.

FIDE based on just 27 games.
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Re: 3.Nc3 Nf6 Question.......
Reply #23 - 08/13/11 at 01:11:49
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Bpaulsen, earlier you stated “Korchnoi is a hardcore MacCutcheon advocate these days.’
So I thought it might be relevant to point out that Korchnoi played the classical about as often as the Mac - with similar success. Just because the Mac is more popular at the moment doesn’t mean much - it’s more just a matter of fashion.

You claim that White can force a greater edge against the Classical than against the Burn or Mac, but you refuse to back it up with variations. I believe you like the Burn or Mac better than the classical, but so what.

...
Edited:
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« Last Edit: 08/13/11 at 02:29:16 by Smyslov_Fan »  

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Re: 3.Nc3 Nf6 Question.......
Reply #22 - 08/13/11 at 01:07:53
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OrangeCounty wrote on 08/13/11 at 00:19:05:
Not to be wading into a swamp here, but regardless of BPaulsen's rating, he's demonstrated some impressive analytical chops on these forums, and I respect his opinions (even when I don't agree with them completely).  So I tend to treat the citation of a few Korchnoi games with skepticism.

Your problem is that you're citing one of the absolute best players in history, for the proposition that one of their openings is (thirty years after their heyday, although of course Korchnoi is still very strong today) equal.  Kasparov has a lopsided plus score on the Black side of 1 e4 c5 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 cxd4 4 Nxd4 Nf6 5 Nc3 a6.  Does that mean the Najdorf is actively bad for White?  Korchnoi could have a plus score on the Black side of the Latvian Gambit, for chrissake, he's a legend!  (He does have a plus score in the Grunfeld, as black, for instance).

So I think you're improperly using statistics, and even properly used, statistics give way to concrete facts.


A good example is Kramnik in the King's Indian. Much of his favored Bayonet lines have been equalized against, but if one were to rely purely on statistics you'd think it was outstanding. Furthermore, relying on statistics you'd assume it was the most critical try for an advantage at the present time, when in reality black's quite comfortable right now.

I honestly have no idea why people put as much emphasis on statistics as they do.
  

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Re: 3.Nc3 Nf6 Question.......
Reply #21 - 08/13/11 at 00:43:33
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bigbelly wrote on 08/12/11 at 23:29:29:
A quick internet search show 7 wins, 6 draws and 3 losses for Korchnoi on the Black side of maine-line classical French.


Do you know how I know that you have no idea what you're arguing?

Player X adopting Y opening with performance Z has nothing to do with the present day theoretical assessment. Wake me up when one of those games he played forms the key basis for the evaluation of the critical variation(s).
  

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Re: 3.Nc3 Nf6 Question.......
Reply #20 - 08/13/11 at 00:19:05
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Not to be wading into a swamp here, but regardless of BPaulsen's rating, he's demonstrated some impressive analytical chops on these forums, and I respect his opinions (even when I don't agree with them completely).  So I tend to treat the citation of a few Korchnoi games with skepticism.

Your problem is that you're citing one of the absolute best players in history, for the proposition that one of their openings is (thirty years after their heyday, although of course Korchnoi is still very strong today) equal.  Kasparov has a lopsided plus score on the Black side of 1 e4 c5 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 cxd4 4 Nxd4 Nf6 5 Nc3 a6.  Does that mean the Najdorf is actively bad for White?  Korchnoi could have a plus score on the Black side of the Latvian Gambit, for chrissake, he's a legend!  (He does have a plus score in the Grunfeld, as black, for instance).

So I think you're improperly using statistics, and even properly used, statistics give way to concrete facts.
  
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Re: 3.Nc3 Nf6 Question.......
Reply #19 - 08/12/11 at 23:29:29
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A quick internet search show 7 wins, 6 draws and 3 losses for Korchnoi on the Black side of maine-line classical French.

BPaulsen - your arrogance would be easier to overlook if you were rated about  400 - 500 points higher.

[Event "Beer Sheva"]
[Site "Beer Sheva"]
[Date "1984.??.??"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Michael Pasman"]
[Black "Viktor Korchnoi"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2335"]
[BlackElo "2635"]
[ECO "C14"]
[EventDate "?"]
[PlyCount "70"]

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Be7 5.e5 Nfd7 6.Bxe7 Qxe7 7.f4 0-0 8.Qd2 c5 9.dxc5 Qxc5 10.Nf3 Nb6
11.0-0-0 Nc6 12.Kb1 Nc4 13.Bxc4 Qxc4 14.Nd4 Bd7 15.b3 Qc5 16.Nxc6 Bxc6 17.Qd4 b6 18.Rhf1 Rad8 19.Rf3
f5 20.Ne2 Bb5 21.Nc3 Be8 22.Rh3 Rc8 23.Rd2 Rf7 24.Ne2 Rfc7 25.Qe3 a5 26.Nd4 Bd7 27.a4 Qb4 28.g4 Bxa4
29.gxf5 exf5 30.e6 Be8 31.Nxf5 a4 32.e7 axb3 33.c3 Rxc3 34.Qe6+ Kh8 35.Rd1 Qa3
0-1

[Event "Wijk aan Zee"]
[Site "Wijk aan Zee"]
[Date "1984.??.??"]
[Round "13"]
[White "Paul Van der Sterren"]
[Black "Viktor Korchnoi"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2475"]
[BlackElo "2635"]
[ECO "C14"]
[EventDate "?"]
[PlyCount "56"]

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Be7 5.e5 Nfd7 6.Bxe7 Qxe7 7.f4 0-0 8.Nf3 c5 9.dxc5 Qxc5 10.Qd2 Nb6
11.Nb5 Nc6 12.c3 f6 13.exf6 Rxf6 14.Bd3 Nc4 15.Bxc4 Qxc4 16.Nbd4 Bd7 17.b3 Qa6 18.0-0-0 Nxd4 19.Nxd4
Raf8 20.g3 e5 21.Ne2 d4 22.cxd4 Bg4 23.Rde1 Rc6+ 24.Kb2 Rfc8 25.Nc1 Bf5 26.Qb4 Rb6 27.Qe7 Qa5 28.a4
Qxa4
0-1

[Event "Thessaloniki olm"]
[Site "Thessaloniki olm"]
[Date "1988.??.??"]
[Round "05"]
[White "Ramon Mateo"]
[Black "Viktor Korchnoi"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2445"]
[BlackElo "2595"]
[ECO "C14"]
[EventDate "?"]
[PlyCount "72"]

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Be7 5.e5 Nfd7 6.Bxe7 Qxe7 7.Qh5 a6 8.f4 c5 9.Nf3 Nc6 10.0-0-0 cxd4
11.Nxd4 Nb6 12.Nf3 Bd7 13.Qg4 0-0 14.Bd3 f5 15.Qg3 Rac8 16.Qf2 Qb4 17.Qd2 d4 18.Ne2 Qa4 19.Kb1 Nd5
20.b3 Qa3 21.c4 dxc3 22.Nxc3 Ncb4 23.Nxd5 Nxd5 24.Bc4 Bc6 25.Rc1 b5 26.Bxd5 Bxd5 27.Qb2 Qb4 28.Qd4
Qxd4 29.Nxd4 Bxg2 30.Rhd1 Kf7 31.b4 Rfd8 32.Nb3 Rxd1 33.Rxd1 Rc4 34.Rd4 Rxd4 35.Nxd4 Be4+ 36.Kb2 g5
0-1

[Event "Amsterdam VSB"]
[Site "Amsterdam VSB"]
[Date "1991.??.??"]
[Round "4"]
[White "John Van der Wiel"]
[Black "Viktor Korchnoi"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2530"]
[BlackElo "2615"]
[ECO "C14"]
[EventDate "?"]
[PlyCount "68"]

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Be7 5.e5 Nfd7 6.Bxe7 Qxe7 7.f4 0-0 8.Qd2 c5 9.Nf3 Nc6 10.0-0-0 Nb6
11.dxc5 Qxc5 12.Bd3 Bd7 13.Bxh7+ Kxh7 14.Ng5+ Kg8 15.Qd3 Rfe8 16.Qh7+ Kf8 17.Rhe1 Qb4 18.Qh8+ Ke7
19.Qh4 Kd8 20.Nxe6+ Kc8 21.a3 Qe7 22.Ng5 f6 23.e6 fxg5 24.exd7+ Qxd7 25.Qxg5 Rxe1 26.Rxe1 a6 27.f5
Kb8 28.Re6 Ka7 29.Rg6 Re8 30.Rxg7 Re1+ 31.Nd1 Qe8 32.f6 Qe4 33.Qd2 Nc4 34.Qf2+ Ne3
0-1

[Event "Klompendans"]
[Site "Amsterdam NED"]
[Date "2001.10.23"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Zsofia Polgar"]
[Black "Viktor Korchnoi"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2469"]
[BlackElo "2639"]
[ECO "C14"]
[EventDate "2001.10.23"]
[PlyCount "112"]

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Be7 5.e5 Nfd7 6.Bxe7 Qxe7 7.f4 a6 8.Nf3 c5 9.Qd2 Nc6 10.dxc5 Qxc5
11.Bd3 b5 12.a3 Bb7 13.Qf2 b4 14.Na4 Qxf2+ 15.Kxf2 a5 16.Bb5 Ke7 17.Rhd1 Rhc8 18.c4 bxc3 19.bxc3
Rab8 20.Rab1 Ba8 21.Nd4 f6 22.exf6+ Nxf6 23.Bd3 e5 24.fxe5 Nxe5 25.Bf5 Rf8 26.Ke2 g6 27.Bd3 Nxd3
28.Kxd3 Ne4 29.Re1 Rfc8 30.Nf3 Kd6 31.Nd4 Bc6 32.Rxb8 Rxb8 33.Nxc6 Kxc6 34.c4 dxc4+ 35.Kxc4 Nd6+
36.Kc3 Nb5+ 37.Kb3 Kd5 38.Nc3+ Nxc3+ 39.Kxc3 a4 40.Re7 Rb3+ 41.Kc2 Rxa3 42.Rxh7 Ra2+ 43.Kb1 Rxg2
44.h4 Ke6 45.h5 g5 46.Ra7 Rh2 47.Rxa4 Kf5 48.Kc1 g4 49.Ra5+ Kf4 50.Ra4+ Kg5 51.Kd1 g3 52.Ra8 Kxh5
53.Rg8 Kh4 54.Ke1 Rf2 55.Rh8+ Kg4 56.Rh1 Rh2
0-1

[Event "15th European Team Championshi"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2005.08.01"]
[Round "3.8"]
[White "Hannes Stefansson"]
[Black "Viktor Korchnoi"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2579"]
[BlackElo "2615"]
[ECO "C14"]
[EventDate "2005.07.30"]
[PlyCount "108"]

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Be7 5.e5 Nfd7 6.Bxe7 Qxe7 7.f4 Nb6 8.Nf3 Bd7 9.Qd2 a6 10.h4 Nc6
11.h5 h6 12.Nd1 Na7 13.Ne3 Bb5 14.0-0-0 c5 15.f5 Bxf1 16.Rdxf1 Nc6 17.c3 0-0-0 18.Nh4 cxd4 19.cxd4
Nc4 20.Nxc4 dxc4 21.fxe6 Qxe6 22.Nf3 Rd7 23.Rh4 Rhd8 24.Rd1 Kb8 25.Qc3 Ne7 26.Ne1 Nd5 27.Qh3 Qxh3
28.Rxh3 Nf4 29.Re3 Rxd4 30.Rxd4 Rxd4 31.Nf3 Nxg2 32.Re2 Rg4 33.Kd2 Nf4 34.Re4 Rg2+ 35.Kc3 Nxh5
36.Nd4 Ng3 37.Rf4 Ne2+ 38.Nxe2 Rxe2 39.Rxf7 g5 40.Rh7 Rxe5 41.Rxh6 g4 42.Kxc4 Rg5 43.Rh2 g3 44.Rg2
Kc7 45.Kd4 Kb6 46.Ke3 Kc5 47.Kf3 Kb4 48.Ke2 Kc4 49.Ke3 Rg7 50.Rc2+ Kd5 51.Rd2+ Ke5 52.Rg2 Kf5 53.Kf3
a5 54.b3 b5
0-1

[Event "Snezenky a Machri"]
[Site "Marianske Lazne"]
[Date "2009.12.02"]
[Round "5.2"]
[White "Jana Jackova"]
[Black "Viktor Korchnoi"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2388"]
[BlackElo "2567"]
[ECO "C14"]
[EventDate "2009.??.??"]
[PlyCount "82"]

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Be7 5.e5 Nfd7 6.Bxe7 Qxe7 7.f4 Nb6 8.Nf3 Bd7 9.Bd3 a6 10.0-0 c5
11.Qe1 Nc6 12.Qf2 c4 13.Be2 Rc8 14.Nd1 f6 15.exf6 gxf6 16.c3 f5 17.Qg3 Kd8 18.b3 cxb3 19.axb3 Kc7
20.Nb2 Rcg8 21.Qe1 Nc8 22.Rf2 Nd6 23.Bf1 Ne4 24.Rc2 Rg7 25.Nd3 Rhg8 26.c4 Kb8 27.c5 Kc7 28.Nde5 Rc8
29.b4 Kd8 30.b5 axb5 31.Bxb5 Nxe5 32.Nxe5 Bxb5 33.Qa5+ Ke8 34.Qxb5+ Kf8 35.Qb6 h6 36.Rac1 Kg8 37.c6
bxc6 38.Nxc6 Qa3 39.Re1 Kh7 40.Rce2 Qc3 41.Ne5 Rxg2+
0-1
  

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Re: 3.Nc3 Nf6 Question.......
Reply #18 - 08/12/11 at 21:59:06
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MartinC wrote on 08/12/11 at 21:52:17:
Well totally concretely I'm not totally sure how bad the main line after 7 ..o-o actually is for black there. Maybe OK - at least once white is forced to go g3 he has to be a little careful! - although I'm not sure I'd like to play it myself.

What I do know is that it all feels slightly too 'easy' for white. You're not running much risk, don't really need to know anything concrete etc while black can slip into a genuinely nasty position reasonably easily.
(I've had a couple of rather smooth wins vs entirely rational opposition, to go with a mildly silly loss.).


Black's not losing by any stretch of the imagination, but find black a clear equalizer in the main lines and you'll produce a revolution in the French. From the practical point of view black players enjoy the resulting structures (hence being perfectly willing to play against 4. e5), so being able to secure equal chances would be fantastic. The big reason the Burn has secured such popularity is black's chances are not worse. If the same could be said of the Classical then it'd undoubtedly be used just as much, if not substantially more due to the familiar structures.

However, as you've noticed, white's position remains slightly preferable. White's pull doesn't disappear as the game goes on, either.
  

2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE.

FIDE based on just 27 games.
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Re: 3.Nc3 Nf6 Question.......
Reply #17 - 08/12/11 at 21:52:17
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Well totally concretely I'm not totally sure how bad the main line after 7 ..o-o actually is for black there. Maybe OK - at least once white is forced to go g3 he has to be a little careful! - although I'm not sure I'd like to play it myself.

What I do know is that it all feels slightly too 'easy' for white. You're not running much risk, don't really need to know anything concrete etc while black can slip into a genuinely nasty position reasonably easily.
(I've had a couple of rather smooth wins vs entirely rational opposition, to go with a mildly silly loss.).

Apologies for drifting off the original question Smiley Just to reemphasise that - the classical can, at whites choice, give roughly the same 'sort' of play as 4 e5. So it'd have to be actively excellent to affect the choice of 4 e5 vs 4 Bg5.
(which no one would claim.).
  
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Re: 3.Nc3 Nf6 Question.......
Reply #16 - 08/12/11 at 21:34:30
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MartinC wrote on 08/12/11 at 21:01:00:
No ones saying its nonsense, or even bad! Concretely I do think white gets a slightly more pleasant position than I'd strictly prefer as black in the sort of treatment I mentioned in my post above.


Concretely is all that matters.
  

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Re: 3.Nc3 Nf6 Question.......
Reply #15 - 08/12/11 at 21:28:11
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bigbelly wrote on 08/12/11 at 21:19:45:
Well, one view would be that the Burn, Classical and Mac are of similar theoretical value.


Grin Grin Grin

Too funny. This is the sort of statement typically put out by someone who hasn't done much in the way of analysis.

Quote:
Korchnoi played both the Classical and the Mac. ...


Korchnoi is a hardcore MacCutcheon advocate these days.

...
Aside from that, ... the thread-starter didn't ask for in-depth responses to begin with.

Edited:
Comments edited by SF 8/12/2011
« Last Edit: 08/13/11 at 02:27:14 by Smyslov_Fan »  

2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE.

FIDE based on just 27 games.
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Re: 3.Nc3 Nf6 Question.......
Reply #14 - 08/12/11 at 21:19:49
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bigbelly wrote on 08/12/11 at 20:46:57:
Balderdash! Your claim that the classical variation simply favors White, and that the Burn or MacCutchen are superior to the classical, is laughable.

....


Actually, it wouldn't be hard to elaborate on because I've already done the research. I'm speaking from the analysis I've done over the decade plus of being a French Defense player, analysis that is always up to date and used by titled players.

I can show equality in both the 5...Nbd7 and 5...Be7 Burn, I cannot demonstrate anything resembling a similar equality in the Classical. You're also left to ask yourself why the Classical's popularity remains way the hell behind the Burn and MacCutcheon if it were all that great from a theoretical (in contrast to the Burn) or practical perspective (in contrast to the MacCutcheon).

...The thread-starter didn't ask for in-depth analysis, so I posted brief opinions to get him moving in the right direction.

That aside, I didn't make any firm statements about the theoretical standing of the MacCutcheon. ...

Edited:
Comments edited by SF 8/12/2011
« Last Edit: 08/13/11 at 02:25:26 by Smyslov_Fan »  

2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE.

FIDE based on just 27 games.
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Re: 3.Nc3 Nf6 Question.......
Reply #13 - 08/12/11 at 21:19:45
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Well, one view would be that the Burn, Classical and Mac are of similar theoretical value.

The Burn being the most passive, the Mac the most aggressive and the Classical somewhere in between on the aggressiveness scale.

Korchnoi played both the Classical and the Mac. [BPaulsen, please elaborate.] Edited:
Comments edited by SF, 8/12/2011
« Last Edit: 08/13/11 at 02:23:44 by Smyslov_Fan »  

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Re: 3.Nc3 Nf6 Question.......
Reply #12 - 08/12/11 at 21:01:00
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I know that statement did look (typically Smiley) dogmatic, but its certainly not nonsense. The Burn does seem to be a rather more efficient equaliser, and the Mac a much more aggressive winning try.

No ones saying its nonsense, or even bad! Concretely I do think white gets a slightly more pleasant position than I'd strictly prefer as black in the sort of treatment I mentioned in my post above.
  
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Re: 3.Nc3 Nf6 Question.......
Reply #11 - 08/12/11 at 20:46:57
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Bpaulsen said:

“#2) I'm not going to elaborate on all the theory that comes after 6. Bxe7. Anyone can do the research themselves and reach the same conclusions.

Balderdash! Your claim that the classical variation simply favors White, and that the Burn or MacCutchen are superior to the classical, is laughable.

....
[Please elaborate] Edited:
Comments edited by SF 8/12/2011
« Last Edit: 08/13/11 at 02:21:59 by Smyslov_Fan »  

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Re: 3.Nc3 Nf6 Question.......
Reply #10 - 08/12/11 at 17:44:00
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Fair enough, and on reflection I guess the main issue in respect to this question of choosing between 4 e5 and 4 Bg5 is that white can get positions with a very similar character to those after 4 e5 after 4 Bg5 Be7.

Things like: 4 Bg5 Be7 5 e5 Nfd7 6 BxB QxB 7 f4 o-o 8 Nf3 c5 9 dc Nc6 10 Bd3 ^ o-o and such and the related 7 .. a6 lines with Qf2 etc do seem to give decent chances for a nice, controlled niggle/edge.

In comparison 4 .. Bb4 and de are just very different Smiley So I wouldn't think it'd really be a major factor either way.
  
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Re: 3.Nc3 Nf6 Question.......
Reply #9 - 08/12/11 at 16:26:02
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When I play the French against players ~U2100 I prefer the Classical because it's rich enough to play for the win. The Burn is more comfortable for Black as a drawing weapon, but it's difficult reach the sort of complex positions needed to score the full point in a Swiss tournament. Against stronger players where I don't mind drawing as Black, the Burn is a fine system.

Bpaulsen's point that there is plenty of literature on these basic questions is of course quite correct. But it doesn't do any harm to rehearse the arguments here.
  
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Re: 3.Nc3 Nf6 Question.......
Reply #8 - 08/12/11 at 08:42:46
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Its nothing awful, but I do think I'd call the classical main line with 6 Bxe7 and o-o comfortable for white. Nothing tragic but probably not something to overly stress about when choosing between 4 e5 and Bg5.

Actually iirc the main line from Psakhis is plausibly lively for black, but it does also seem fairly easy in practice (as white in my case) for black to drift into a really nasty position.
  
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Re: 3.Nc3 Nf6 Question.......
Reply #7 - 08/12/11 at 00:32:04
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OrangeCounty wrote on 08/11/11 at 23:10:08:
Given that transpositions to the Burn/lines with Bg5 are perfectly respectable alternatives in the Rubenstein, I'm not sure why a player of the Black pieces would play 3... Nf6 rather than 3... dxe4; surely there are reasons, but enough to risk 4 e5 and thereby have to learn the entire Steinitz complex in addition to the "open French"?

Is the Classical really so under the weather that we can call it "good for White" with no further discussion?  I agree that accepting a trade of bishops is antipositional, but the Classical was (well) Classical for a long time; is it really unplayable, or just more comfortable for White?


#1) Black players would typically rather face the critical lines of the French Steinitz than the critical lines of the French Rubenstein.

Theory is much kinder to black in the Burn than it is in the Rubenstein proper.

In contrast black isn't doing that poorly in the French Steinitz.

#2) I'm not going to elaborate on all the theory that comes after 6. Bxe7. Anyone can do the research themselves and reach the same conclusions.

Even if black found some method of walking a tight rope to equality his task is still substantially easier in the Burn.
« Last Edit: 08/12/11 at 02:55:08 by BPaulsen »  

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Re: 3.Nc3 Nf6 Question.......
Reply #6 - 08/11/11 at 23:33:27
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OrangeCounty wrote on 08/11/11 at 23:10:08:
Given that transpositions to the Burn/lines with Bg5 are perfectly respectable alternatives in the Rubenstein, I'm not sure why a player of the Black pieces would play 3... Nf6 rather than 3... dxe4; surely there are reasons, but enough to risk 4 e5 and thereby have to learn the entire Steinitz complex in addition to the "open French"?


In the Rubinstein White doesn't have to put the bishop on g5 early; he can use it on d2 or leave it on c1 for a while, for example. So it's a straight choice for Black whether he prefers to play against 3...Nf6 4.e5 or the non-Bg5 Rubinstein lines (provided he does like some form of the Burn, of course).

Especially the Burn lines with 5...Be7 6.Bxf6 gxf6!? fit better stylistically with 3...Nf6 4.e5 than with regular Rubinstein lines IMHO. And if Black believes Bg5 lines are not objectively the strongest against the Rubinstein, that's a good reason to play the Burn move order.
  

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Re: 3.Nc3 Nf6 Question.......
Reply #5 - 08/11/11 at 23:10:08
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Given that transpositions to the Burn/lines with Bg5 are perfectly respectable alternatives in the Rubenstein, I'm not sure why a player of the Black pieces would play 3... Nf6 rather than 3... dxe4; surely there are reasons, but enough to risk 4 e5 and thereby have to learn the entire Steinitz complex in addition to the "open French"?

Is the Classical really so under the weather that we can call it "good for White" with no further discussion?  I agree that accepting a trade of bishops is antipositional, but the Classical was (well) Classical for a long time; is it really unplayable, or just more comfortable for White?
  
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Re: 3.Nc3 Nf6 Question.......
Reply #4 - 08/11/11 at 22:59:13
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Although not sure how many club players use the dxe4 systems. Were they common I might consider 4 e5, but don't seem to be, thus 4 Bg5 as I find the rest fun. Well  4 .. Bb4 plain terrifying really! 

But they're both very good systems Smiley
  
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Re: 3.Nc3 Nf6 Question.......
Reply #3 - 08/11/11 at 22:23:50
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XChess1971 wrote on 08/11/11 at 21:51:05:
4.Bg5 Be7 5.e5 Nfd7 6.h4?
4.Bg5 dxe4 5.Nxe4 Be7 and 5...Nbd7?


No reason to avoid the main line with 6. Bxe7. It favors white.

Both 5...Be7 and 5...Nbd7 are pretty much equal so long as black stays accurate.
  

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Re: 3.Nc3 Nf6 Question.......
Reply #2 - 08/11/11 at 21:51:05
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BPaulsen wrote on 08/11/11 at 21:42:09:
XChess1971 wrote on 08/11/11 at 21:28:34:
What's a good system to play with white in the variation 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6??

a) 4.e5
b) 4.Bg5

About 4.Bg5 how good is for black 4...dxe4??


4. Bg5 Be7 favors white. 4. Bg5 Bb4 is complicated, but suits the taste of most 1. e4 players. 4. Bg5 dxe4 is black's most solid option and he has good equalizing chances.

4. e5 is perhaps more theoretically challenging choice.


4.Bg5 Be7 5.e5 Nfd7 6.h4?
4.Bg5 dxe4 5.Nxe4 Be7 and 5...Nbd7?
  
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Re: 3.Nc3 Nf6 Question.......
Reply #1 - 08/11/11 at 21:42:09
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XChess1971 wrote on 08/11/11 at 21:28:34:
What's a good system to play with white in the variation 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6??

a) 4.e5
b) 4.Bg5

About 4.Bg5 how good is for black 4...dxe4??


4. Bg5 Be7 favors white. 4. Bg5 Bb4 is complicated, but suits the taste of most 1. e4 players. 4. Bg5 dxe4 is black's most solid option and he has good equalizing chances.

4. e5 is perhaps more theoretically challenging choice.
  

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C10-C14: 3.Nc3 Nf6 Question.......
08/11/11 at 21:28:34
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What's a good system to play with white in the variation 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6??

a) 4.e5
b) 4.Bg5

About 4.Bg5 how good is for black 4...dxe4??
« Last Edit: 08/13/11 at 03:13:55 by Smyslov_Fan »  
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