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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Samisch 8.. Re8 Panno (Read 14443 times)
fluffy
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Re: Samisch 8.. Re8 Panno
Reply #17 - 08/19/11 at 19:00:51
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no problem. Smiley I think ...Rb8 is better anyway.
  
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MartinC
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Re: Samisch 8.. Re8 Panno
Reply #16 - 08/19/11 at 16:22:30
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Look I'm definetly sorry to have annoyed you as emphatically not my intent to complain cf the books. I seen more than enough nonsense to know why you're defensive about this sort of thing!

The thing not mentioned was meant to - and can quite rationally - refer to the Bxf6, although it does look like what I wrote was ambigious.
  
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fluffy
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Re: Samisch 8.. Re8 Panno
Reply #15 - 08/19/11 at 13:33:47
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well, you wrote

"The line is: 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 g6 3 Nc3 d6 4 e4 Bg7 5 f3 o-o 6 Be3 a6 7 Nge2 Nc6 8 Qd2 and then 8.. Re8. This is specifically aimed at meeting 9 Nc1 effectively by improving the pawn sac, but I'm not totally sure because of the very computerish thing below on move 16.

Its not mentioned in Golubev/Fluffy's books"

that line is in both books. only later do you mention Bxf6.
  
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MartinC
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Re: Samisch 8.. Re8 Panno
Reply #14 - 08/19/11 at 08:44:37
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Um I just double checked and I'm pretty sure its not in yours? The Bxf6 thing that is, I never claimed that the basic thing wasn't mentioned.

Not blaming you or the book at all - its one line in what must be your third (fourth?) distinct option Smiley Could have fallen out in editing or some such I suppose.
  
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fluffy
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Re: Samisch 8.. Re8 Panno
Reply #13 - 08/18/11 at 23:01:25
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so the line is in both books. it may be worth checking before making such statements. Smiley
  
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MartinC
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Re: Samisch 8.. Re8 Panno
Reply #12 - 08/18/11 at 15:32:35
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Apologies! I did look and must just have missed it. Great book though Smiley
  
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Mikhail_Golubev
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Re: Samisch 8.. Re8 Panno
Reply #11 - 08/18/11 at 15:09:39
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Hey,

MartinC wrote on 08/13/11 at 08:42:40:
Just something distressingly computerish I stumbled across this while checking, and I'm not totally sure about.

The line is: 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 g6 3 Nc3 d6 4 e4 Bg7 5 f3 o-o 6 Be3 a6 7 Nge2 Nc6 8 Qd2 and then 8.. Re8. This is specifically aimed at meeting 9 Nc1 effectively by improving the pawn sac, but I'm not totally sure because of the very computerish thing below on move 16.

Its not mentioned in Golubev/Fluffy's books, and not played as yet, probably because it looks so insanely greedy. But white does get 2 pawns and that very solid outpost on d5 and I don't think its obvious that there is enough there.

Well you can get one pawn back right away, but that seems to involve giving the dark squared bishop back or trading queens. This would of course be insane for white in the related lines where black has already played Rb8 Smiley



(the more critical 16 Вxf6!? can be answered with 16...Вxf6 17 Nxd5 Bxb2!? 18 Qxb2 Qxd5, when it is not so easy for White to complete his development) - "Understanding the King's Indian" Page 160
  
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fling
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Re: Samisch 8.. Re8 Panno
Reply #10 - 08/16/11 at 11:19:25
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I see, thanks, I forgot about those books. I have ordered them, but still waiting for them.
  
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MartinC
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Re: Samisch 8.. Re8 Panno
Reply #9 - 08/16/11 at 08:42:58
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The recent pair of Everyman attacking chess kings Indian books he did. Obviously the Samisch is only in one of them Smiley (the first iirc.). He does also do the Panno vs the Fianchetto in the other one though.

Like his 4 Qc2 Nimzo book they're fairly broad in what they cover rather than tightly sticking to the repitoire.
  
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fling
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Re: Samisch 8.. Re8 Panno
Reply #8 - 08/16/11 at 07:21:59
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MartinC wrote on 08/15/11 at 16:06:20:
Being a highly dilligent author Fluffy actually covers it as yet another option (the main line being the main choice) and does suggest that 9 h4 could well be managable for black.


Sorry, but which book is this?
  
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MartinC
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Re: Samisch 8.. Re8 Panno
Reply #7 - 08/15/11 at 16:06:20
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Yes, that line does certainly seem to cope with Nc1 ideas Smiley

Being a highly dilligent author Fluffy actually covers it as yet another option (the main line being the main choice) and does suggest that 9 h4 could well be managable for black.

I do think that Rb8 looks really rather odd by itself - much more so than a6 really - but if there's a concrete reason for it then....
  
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Re: Samisch 8.. Re8 Panno
Reply #6 - 08/15/11 at 12:27:31
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You might like to check out GM Heiki Westerinen's old line, combining ...Re8 with ...Rb8, delaying ...a6. He developed this line in the 1960s and even wrote a book about the ...Nc6 defence to the Saemisch. I noticed this fairly recent win of his, albeit against a lower rated opponent.

Amberger,D (2057) - Westerinen,H (2362) [E83]
Arctic Chess Challenge Tromso NOR (6), 06.08.2009
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.f3 Nc6 6.Be3 0-0 7.Qd2 Re8 8.Nge2 Rb8 9.Nc1 e5 10.d5 Nd4 11.Nb3 c5 12.dxc6 bxc6 13.Nxd4 exd4 14.Bxd4 d5 15.cxd5 cxd5 16.e5 Nh5 17.0-0-0 Bxe5 18.Bxe5 Rxe5 19.g4 Ng7 20.Nxd5 Bb7 21.Nc3 Qxd2+ 22.Rxd2 Re1+ 23.Rd1 Rxd1+ 24.Nxd1 Bxf3 25.Rg1 Bxd1 26.Kxd1 Rxb2 27.Rg2 Rb1+ 28.Ke2 Ra1 29.a4 Ne6 30.Rf2 Rxa4 31.h3 Kg7 32.Kd3 Nf4+ 33.Kc3 Nxh3 0-1

I seem to recall that this line was put under threat by an early h4, but the analysis was done a long time ago and a strong engine will probably reveal fresh resources, for both sides.
  
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MartinC
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Re: Samisch 8.. Re8 Panno
Reply #5 - 08/14/11 at 17:47:23
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Thanks Smiley

Not sure if there's enough comp there mind - after say 17 .. Bxb2 18 Rb1 Be5 (Bg7 maybe) 19 Bc4 I know blacks got those nice bishops and a slightly loose white king, but whites still got that very nice d5 knight and an extra pawn to go with it.
  
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Re: Samisch 8.. Re8 Panno
Reply #4 - 08/14/11 at 15:41:58
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ECO has given 17...Bxb2 with compensation according to Vyzhmanavin.
  
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MartinC
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Re: Samisch 8.. Re8 Panno
Reply #3 - 08/13/11 at 15:19:31
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Yes the line is of course mentioned overall Smiley What I can't see is any mention of white just taking d5 like this.

Which I certainly don't blame you for as its rather unnatural, but it does also seem a little annoying.
  
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fluffy
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Re: Samisch 8.. Re8 Panno
Reply #2 - 08/13/11 at 13:32:58
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Quote:
Its not mentioned in Golubev/Fluffy's books, and not played as yet, probably because it looks so insanely greedy.


um, it's on page 355. I believe it is also in Golubev's book.
  
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Re: Samisch 8.. Re8 Panno
Reply #1 - 08/13/11 at 12:05:30
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MartinC wrote on 08/13/11 at 08:42:40:
Its not mentioned in Golubev/Fluffy's books, and not played as yet, probably because it looks so insanely greedy.


Well, 8...Re8 was played in Beliavsky-Kasparov, Moscow 1981, and Kasparov gives it ?! and suggests that the pawn sacrifice you give is dubious.  Beliavsky played 11 N1e2...
  
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MartinC
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Samisch 8.. Re8 Panno
08/13/11 at 08:42:40
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Just something distressingly computerish I stumbled across this while checking, and I'm not totally sure about.

The line is: 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 g6 3 Nc3 d6 4 e4 Bg7 5 f3 o-o 6 Be3 a6 7 Nge2 Nc6 8 Qd2 and then 8.. Re8. This is specifically aimed at meeting 9 Nc1 effectively by improving the pawn sac, but I'm not totally sure because of the very computerish thing below on move 16.

Its not mentioned in Golubev/Fluffy's books, and not played as yet, probably because it looks so insanely greedy. But white does get 2 pawns and that very solid outpost on d5 and I don't think its obvious that there is enough there.

Well you can get one pawn back right away, but that seems to involve giving the dark squared bishop back or trading queens. This would of course be insane for white in the related lines where black has already played Rb8 Smiley

  
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