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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C41: Newark gambit (Read 56808 times)
Bibs
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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #68 - 12/21/19 at 08:00:11
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I suspect we are all agreeing more than disagreeing.
Unsound, but tricky and maybe effective on occasion in blitz.
Best seasonal wishes to Lev and all.
  
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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #67 - 12/20/19 at 02:47:19
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You confirmed nicely what Bibs wrote six years ago .....
  

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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #66 - 12/19/19 at 23:02:24
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Bibs wrote on 06/18/13 at 13:07:10:
Translation of Gambit's post:

'I will post more analysis. But it will not be any good. Easy to refute, and you will quickly refute. But some people will go wrong in bullet games online and I will win some games. So I am happy, I am delusional, and you are wrong. Trolled!'

SF - step in please. Given him some rope. Duly hanged himself.


What a bunch of malarkey. If I were to play you in blitz or an over-the-board tournament game, I would have the better chances because I know the opening.  Care to play me? Let me know which chess site you prefer.

  
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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #65 - 06/18/13 at 17:05:08
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You're all right. It's time to lock this thread.
  
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Bibs
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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #64 - 06/18/13 at 13:07:10
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Translation of Gambit's post:

'I will post more analysis. But it will not be any good. Easy to refute, and you will quickly refute. But some people will go wrong in bullet games online and I will win some games. So I am happy, I am delusional, and you are wrong. Trolled!'

SF - step in please. Given him some rope. Duly hanged himself.
  
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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #63 - 06/18/13 at 10:09:40
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Gambit wrote on 06/18/13 at 03:08:26:
Third, I mentioned the computer because both times that the move was found, it took a chess engine to do it. Just citing the facts.

Last, best play by both sides, you say? Hmmm, that might not always be the case! That is how chess is, regardless of opening! Best play by both sides is not always the case!


In play, we can't expect best play, especially if the players are not world class. But this thread is about analysis, and there best play by both sides is what we should focus on, since that should be the main line. Surely you see the difference?
  

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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #62 - 06/18/13 at 03:08:26
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Markovich wrote on 06/18/13 at 00:26:33:
How do you know how I found 6.Nc3, Lev? Do you suppose that you are the only one here with a brain?  I suggest that some of your brain power might have been expended on 5.Bb3 before recommending 4...b5 here and elsewhere. But since when is a refutation not a refutation because (hypothetically) it was found with silicon assistance?

Best play for both sides after 4...b5 leads to a big advantage for White, do you deny that? If you do, produce your lines. Otherwise, concede that 4...b5 is no good and stop equivocating.

By the way, Lev, your 5.Bxg8 idea just smells bad. Why would White want to exchange his potent B, especially in context of Black's having weakened the a2-g8 diagonal, for a piece that hasn't even moved yet?? 5.Bxb5+ is equally a stinker, distracting the B in exchange for a mere pawn. So according to you, crappy chess is good, while strong, winning chess is "avoiding all the fun," am I right?

For me, playing winning moves is great fun. Not you?


Crappy chess? Hardly. Accepting the gambit is not crappy chess. That is what a real chess player would do. No less a great than Bobby Fischer once said, "A gambit's refutation begins with its acceptance."

Next, the 5 Bxg8 line is known from the closely-related Strautins Variation of the Latvian Gambit. That line goes 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 f5 3 Bc4 b5 4 Bxg8 Rxg8. I was not the first one to try the 5 Bxg8 line, especially since I am playing Black!.

Third, I mentioned the computer because both times that the move was found, it took a chess engine to do it. Just citing the facts.

Last, best play by both sides, you say? Hmmm, that might not always be the case! That is how chess is, regardless of opening! Best play by both sides is not always the case!

I will produce my lines when I have put together the games I am playing on ICC with the Newark Gambit. Might take a bit of time, given that my printer is not working and I have to copy the moves by hand.
Be warned, the lines might not be what the perfectionist expects!
  
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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #61 - 06/18/13 at 00:26:33
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How do you know how I found 6.Nc3, Lev? Do you suppose that you are the only one here with a brain?  I suggest that some of your brain power might have been expended on 5.Bb3 before recommending 4...b5 here and elsewhere. But since when is a refutation not a refutation because (hypothetically) it was found with silicon assistance?

Best play for both sides after 4...b5 leads to a big advantage for White, do you deny that? If you do, produce your lines. Otherwise, concede that 4...b5 is no good and stop equivocating.

By the way, Lev, your 5.Bxg8 idea just smells bad. Why would White want to exchange his potent B, especially in context of Black's having weakened the a2-g8 diagonal, for a piece that hasn't even moved yet?? 5.Bxb5+ is equally a stinker, distracting the B in exchange for a mere pawn. So according to you, crappy chess is good, while strong, winning chess is "avoiding all the fun," am I right?

For me, playing winning moves is great fun. Not you?
  

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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #60 - 06/17/13 at 22:29:36
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Markovich wrote on 06/17/13 at 03:21:34:
Wonderful Lev, but none of that answers my criticism of the so-called Newark Gambit, which is the subject of this thread. 4...b5 has been refuted, you agree?


No, I do not. The reasons are very simple: both people who found your move used a chess computer! That is first.

Second, I am always looking for improvements, and very well might find something to counter your proposed variation.

Third, 5 Bb3 is just running, avoiding all the fun.

Fourth, I play the Newark Gambit online, OTB  and in certain correspondence games and I win with it!
« Last Edit: 06/18/13 at 03:15:07 by Gambit »  
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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #59 - 06/18/13 at 17:03:10
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Off-Topic replies have been moved to this Topic.
  
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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #58 - 06/17/13 at 03:21:34
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Wonderful Lev, but none of that answers my criticism of the so-called Newark Gambit, which is the subject of this thread. 4...b5 has been refuted, you agree?
  

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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #57 - 06/15/13 at 05:28:17
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... I win with my openings precisely because I know their tricky, unorthodox nuances better than the other players do.

Time and again, in OTB play and even some correspondence play, I never see  6 Nc3. There were only two times that I saw this move. One was in discussion last year on this site. The other was earlier this year in casual analyses with a chess-friend of mine at the West Orange Chess Club last month.

In both cases, a chess computer was used to help!

Of course, to refute Lev's tricky ideas a machine is needed! Like a human brain is not enough...

Excuse my sarcasm, but that's my viewpoint.

For the record, I played 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 f5 4 Bc4 b5 more than three dozen times since 2003. I have played all kinds of players, in OTB play, blitz, correspondence. These ranged from weaklings to Grandmasters. Not a single one found 5 Bb3 fxe4
6 Nc3.

At the moment, I am testing out 4 Bc4 b5 5 Bb3 c6 at the Internet Chess Club. Some interesting games have been played.

knightrunner - Zilbermints
Internet Chess Club
5 0 unrated
15 June 2013

1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 f5 4 Bc4 b5 5 Bb3 c6!?
6 dxe5 fxe4 7 Nc3 exf3 8 Qf3 Qd7 9 Nxb5 d5 10 Nd4 Bc5 11 e6 Qe7 12 Be3 Bxd4 13 Bd4 Nf6 =+ 0-1/24.

I would love to give an OTB game, but quite frankly, I don't have any with this sub-variation. The same goes for correspondence.

Finally, I beat IM Martica Fierro with the Philidor Counter Gambit in a simultaneous on 28 May 2013.
Time control was 30 minute 30 second increment, unrated.

1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 f5 4 dxe5 fxe4 5 Ng5 d5 6 e6 Bc5 7 Nxe4 Be7 8 Ng5 Bxg5 9 Qh5+ g6 10 Qxg5 Qxg5 11 Bxg5 Be6 12 Nc3 c6 13 000 h6 14 Bh4 g5
15 Bg3 Nf6 = 0-1/61.

I offered her a draw twice, but she refused. Oh well... I got to win the game!

 
Edited:
Post edited to remove inflammatory remarks. ~SF June 15, 2013

« Last Edit: 06/15/13 at 16:09:18 by Smyslov_Fan »  
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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #56 - 06/14/13 at 04:08:37
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So Black would, what, have a dream to end up only an exchange and a pawn down?
  
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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #55 - 06/14/13 at 03:45:20
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 06/13/13 at 22:04:26:
Here's a refutation of 5...c6. It's not surprising at all that this is refuted considering the fundamental rules of development that were ignored.

Please Gambit, check your variations more carefully before posting them. Also, if you discuss this with a titled player, get that titled player to make comments here too please.



Why don't you try 5...c6  6 exf5 e4 7 Ng5 Nf6!
  
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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #54 - 06/13/13 at 22:04:26
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Here's a refutation of 5...c6. It's not surprising at all that this is refuted considering the fundamental rules of development that were ignored.

Please Gambit, check your variations more carefully before posting them. Also, if you discuss this with a titled player, get that titled player to make comments here too please.

  
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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #53 - 06/13/13 at 21:57:47
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I just want to be clear, this is a chess site. I will not be locking threads just because someone asks me to. If analysis is posted in good faith and a refutation is also posted in good faith, there is no problem.

Problems arise when the refutation of the line is clear and the poster continues to argue about it. One of the beautiful things about chess analysis is that "On the chessboard lies and hypocrisy do not last long."

Gambit, it is up to you now to present a clear argument, not just a single line, that hasn't been carefully vetted to show why we should take 5...c6 more seriously than 6...c6.


I will closely monitor this thread to make sure it does not become problematic. But so far, it has not crossed that line.
  
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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #52 - 06/13/13 at 17:06:48
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6 exf5 e4! 7 Qe2 d5! 8 Ng5 Nf6 9 f3 Bxf5 10 fxe4 Nxe4 11 Nc3 Bb4 12 Bd2 Bxc3 13 bxc3 00 =+
  
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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #51 - 06/13/13 at 08:44:45
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This is simply tosh.
If Gambit cannot justify with more than single move 'analysis', shut down the thread.
Avoid time wasting (ah, the troll got me too, woe), back to proper chess.
  
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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #50 - 06/13/13 at 05:46:23
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West and I analyzed the line with 5...fxe4 6 Nc3 etc., yesterday. Our assessment was that 5...fxe4 is dubious. However, the simple 5...c6! is much better!
  
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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #49 - 06/13/13 at 02:18:22
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tony37 wrote on 06/12/13 at 15:47:30:
the king is well placed in the coming endgame

sorry, couldn't resist

Very well placed...

Very well placed indeed.
HTH
  

I'm reminded again of something Short wrote recently, approximately "The biggest fallacy in chess is the quasi-religious belief in the primacy of the opening."
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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #48 - 06/12/13 at 15:47:30
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the king is well placed in the coming endgame

sorry, couldn't resist
  
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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #47 - 06/12/13 at 15:01:08
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Here's a PGN of the line Gambit is discussing.

A quick glance shows that Black has broken some pretty fundamental rules of development, is down a pawn, and has no obvious counterplay since he can't trap a piece. I'd love to hear what NM West has to say about this. Please invite him to join ChessPub!


  
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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #46 - 06/12/13 at 07:50:36
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Not necessarily. I played 6 test-games at a time control of 3 min. 3 sec. increment on the Internet Chess Club. Result: +2, -2, =2.

Since it is close to 4 am here, I am off to bed.
  
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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #45 - 06/12/13 at 05:17:36
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Gambit wrote on 06/12/13 at 04:58:57:
Did I get this move order correct?

1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 f5 4 Bc4 b5 5 Bb3 fxe4 6 Nc3 c6 7 Nxe4 d5 8 Nxe5 dxe4 ? Is this what you mean?


That is what I thought we were talking about. Apologies if I am wrong. After 8...dxe4 isn't 9.Bf7+ Ke7 10.Bxg8 game over?
  
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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #44 - 06/12/13 at 04:58:57
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Did I get this move order correct?

1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 f5 4 Bc4 b5 5 Bb3 fxe4 6 Nc3 c6 7 Nxe4 d5 8 Nxe5 dxe4 ? Is this what you mean?
  
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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #43 - 06/12/13 at 04:25:07
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Gambit wrote on 06/12/13 at 03:48:21:
West and I analyzed this. We both agree 7 Nxe4 d5! leads to wild complications.


I confess I'm baffled. I don't see any complications after 8.Nxe5 with an extra pawn, a huge lead in development and Ng5 coming. Surely black is just dead lost there.
  
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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #42 - 06/12/13 at 03:48:21
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West and I analyzed this. We both agree 7 Nxe4 d5! leads to wild complications. It is even similar to some of the main lines of the PCG.
  
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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #41 - 06/12/13 at 02:09:06
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Well, 7.Nxe4 and who on Earth would want to be Black?

White has a huge lead in development, and he's not even a pawn down.

I looked at 7...Nf6 8.Neg5 e4 9.0-0!
  

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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #40 - 06/11/13 at 18:31:48
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Have not been posting much here because I was busy doing other things, especially finishing up a manuscript for a Blackmar-Diemer Gambit book. That said, I talked to NM West on Sunday. He suggests the following line:

1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 f5 4 Bc4 b5 5 Bb3 fxe4 6 Nc3 c6!
  
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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #39 - 02/09/12 at 01:22:54
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Gambit wrote on 02/08/12 at 04:29:39:
LOL... The Schliemann is complicated. So is my gambit.
Try the following line:

1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 f5 4 Bc4 b5 5 Bxb5+ c6 6 Ba4 fxe4 7 Nxe5 dxe5 8 Qh5+ with complications.

You also might want to check the game I posted against Canadian FM C. Stevens. Very complicated stuff.

Finally, ever heard what Savielly Tartakower once said? "Dubious, therefore playable."


Not critical and therefore not interesting. But since there is no real conversation going on here, this thread is at an end.
  

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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #38 - 02/08/12 at 04:29:39
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LOL... The Schliemann is complicated. So is my gambit.
Try the following line:

1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 f5 4 Bc4 b5 5 Bxb5+ c6 6 Ba4 fxe4 7 Nxe5 dxe5 8 Qh5+ with complications.

You also might want to check the game I posted against Canadian FM C. Stevens. Very complicated stuff.

Finally, ever heard what Savielly Tartakower once said? "Dubious, therefore playable."
  
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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #37 - 02/07/12 at 16:37:59
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Gambit wrote on 02/07/12 at 05:39:52:
I used to play the Schliemann, years ago. It can get very complicated fast. But my question is, how is the Schliemann similar to the Newark Gambit?

It is not. If you read the opening I quoted it was Rousseau Gambit. Lots of people play the Schliemann because its complicated and borderline sound. This Newark gambit you have proclaimed is refutable, boring and simple. No similarities at all.
  
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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #36 - 02/07/12 at 12:49:07
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trw wrote on 02/07/12 at 04:14:19:
SWJediknight wrote on 02/03/12 at 00:35:44:
Like the Rousseau gambit (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 f5)


is this line so fundamentally different than the Schliemann? Seems like the ideas would be similar.


The Schliemann works as well as it does because White's Bishop has already gone to b5.  Here it hasn't.  Also, needless to say, here Black has played the self-blocking 2...d6.

@Lev: I might try? I'm not interested in playing this gambit.  But 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 f5 4.Bc4 b5 5.Bb3 Bb7 6.dxe5 and now what? 6...fxe5 7.Ng5 d5 8.Ne6 followed by 9.Bxd5 appears very close to a win for White.
  

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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #35 - 02/07/12 at 05:39:52
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I used to play the Schliemann, years ago. It can get very complicated fast. But my question is, how is the Schliemann similar to the Newark Gambit?
  
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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #34 - 02/07/12 at 05:15:27
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But if 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 f5, what if 4. d4 since after ...fxe4 5. Nxe5 Nxe5 6. dxe5 there is no queen check on a5 with tempo via ...c6 and winning a piece?
  

Creo lo que creo no importa lo que creen los demás.
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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #33 - 02/07/12 at 04:14:19
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SWJediknight wrote on 02/03/12 at 00:35:44:
Like the Rousseau gambit (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 f5)


is this line so fundamentally different than the Schliemann? Seems like the ideas would be similar.
  
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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #32 - 02/07/12 at 03:36:02
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Instead of 5...fxe4 6 Nc3 you might try 5 Bb3 Bb7!?
  
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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #31 - 02/07/12 at 02:19:55
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I have deleted some obnoxious posts by various people.

Lev, the very next thing that you post that does not address the 64 squares, unless it is very friendly indeed, will get you banned, and I doubt that I will relent this time. Come here friendly and come prepared to talk chess theory, or don't come at all. And no one will miss you.

Further, I will shut this miserable thread unless someone posts something to uphold Black's case against 4.Bc4 b5 5.Bb3! fxe4 6.Nc3!, which appears to me to be dispositive. For one thing, where is Black going to put his king?

If nothing pertinent appears, this thread dies. Tread very carefully now, Lev.
  

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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #30 - 02/06/12 at 11:13:12
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Trouble is, in the case of many dubious gambits, the most theoretically critical response does involve "ducking out" of the most complicated lines (complicated lines, after all, tend to be relatively unclear).  This can involve settling for a safe one or two-pawn advantage as opposed to pursuing more material, or returning the material in order to take over the initiative (the former being critical against the Budapest Fajarowicz and Elephant gambits, and the latter against the Latvian and Englund for instance). 

It's mainly with the sounder gambits- the Evans, the 4.Ng5 d5 line of the Two Knights, and many of White's popular gambit tries in the Slav are good examples- where the most critical responses tend to involve heading straight into the more complex and bloodthirsty lines. 
  
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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #29 - 02/04/12 at 05:01:11
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Lev, of course Black's win is not certain after 9...Kc6, but it remains that anyone looking for a fight would've played this move, since it holds out pretty good winning chances, while the other way a perp is on the board.

But were you planning to answer on the subject of 5.Bb3 fxe4 6.Nc3? It looks awfully good for White.
  

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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #28 - 02/03/12 at 21:28:31
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Gambit wrote on 02/03/12 at 21:18:56:
Markovich wrote on 02/02/12 at 17:08:21:
Gambit wrote on 02/02/12 at 11:24:06:
To answer a few questions:

4 exf5 was refuted by James West in a posted reponse on the Kenilworth Chess Club website, the same source you gave.

As for the Newark Gambit, here is a recent game with it:

FM Christian Stevens (Canada) - Lev Zilbermintz
Internet Chess Club 5 0 rated blitz
January 25, 2012

1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 f5 4 Bc4 b5 5 Bb3?! fxe4 6 Ng5 d5 7 Ne4 dxe4 8 Qh5+ Kd7 9 Qf7+ Ne7 10 Qe6+ Ke8 11 Qf7+ Kd7 DRAWN.



Shame on you for playing into that draw when you could've tried to win with 9...Kc6.  But 9.Qxe5 would've been a better move than 9.Qf7+.  It's interesting that the position in question comes up more directly, and one move sooner, via 6.Nxe5 dxe5 7.Qh5+ Kd7.

But say Lev, it appears to me that 6.Nc3!, rather than any move of the king knight, is the best move on the board.  In fact it looks to me that White is close to winning. I assume you have something to say about it, so I shall wait for your reply.  Come to think of it, isn't "?!" a quite extravagant mark to put on such a sound and seemingly promising move as 5.Bb3?  You really should be more unassuming with your move decorations.

I mean, Tarrasch would never have condoned 5.Bxg8.


The win is by no means certain. My computer gives 10 a4 ed4 11 axb5 Kb6 =


But OTB Black must have good chances  Cheesy
  
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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #27 - 02/03/12 at 21:18:56
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Markovich wrote on 02/02/12 at 17:08:21:
Gambit wrote on 02/02/12 at 11:24:06:
To answer a few questions:

4 exf5 was refuted by James West in a posted reponse on the Kenilworth Chess Club website, the same source you gave.

As for the Newark Gambit, here is a recent game with it:

FM Christian Stevens (Canada) - Lev Zilbermintz
Internet Chess Club 5 0 rated blitz
January 25, 2012

1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 f5 4 Bc4 b5 5 Bb3?! fxe4 6 Ng5 d5 7 Ne4 dxe4 8 Qh5+ Kd7 9 Qf7+ Ne7 10 Qe6+ Ke8 11 Qf7+ Kd7 DRAWN.



Shame on you for playing into that draw when you could've tried to win with 9...Kc6.  But 9.Qxe5 would've been a better move than 9.Qf7+.  It's interesting that the position in question comes up more directly, and one move sooner, via 6.Nxe5 dxe5 7.Qh5+ Kd7.

But say Lev, it appears to me that 6.Nc3!, rather than any move of the king knight, is the best move on the board.  In fact it looks to me that White is close to winning. I assume you have something to say about it, so I shall wait for your reply.  Come to think of it, isn't "?!" a quite extravagant mark to put on such a sound and seemingly promising move as 5.Bb3?  You really should be more unassuming with your move decorations.

I mean, Tarrasch would never have condoned 5.Bxg8.


The win is by no means certain. My computer gives 10 a4 ed4 11 axb5 Kb6 =
  
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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #26 - 02/03/12 at 00:35:44
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http://kenilworthian.blogspot.com/2012/01/refuting-philidor-counter-gambit-with....

The critical line (after 4.exf5) is given as 4...e4 5.Ng5 Nf6 6.f3 h6 7.Nxe4 Nxe4 8.Qe2 d5 9.fxe4!, leading, as MNb implied, to clearly better positions for White.   Also Markovich's 4.Bc4 b5 5.Bb3 fxe4 6.Nc3 looks simple and good.

Like the Rousseau gambit (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 f5) I can see this gambit providing some fun at blitz where White may stumble into the pitfalls, but in a serious game I would certainly much rather be White.
  
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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #25 - 02/02/12 at 17:08:21
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Gambit wrote on 02/02/12 at 11:24:06:
To answer a few questions:

4 exf5 was refuted by James West in a posted reponse on the Kenilworth Chess Club website, the same source you gave.

As for the Newark Gambit, here is a recent game with it:

FM Christian Stevens (Canada) - Lev Zilbermintz
Internet Chess Club 5 0 rated blitz
January 25, 2012

1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 f5 4 Bc4 b5 5 Bb3?! fxe4 6 Ng5 d5 7 Ne4 dxe4 8 Qh5+ Kd7 9 Qf7+ Ne7 10 Qe6+ Ke8 11 Qf7+ Kd7 DRAWN.



Shame on you for playing into that draw when you could've tried to win with 9...Kc6.  But 9.Qxe5 would've been a better move than 9.Qf7+.  It's interesting that the position in question comes up more directly, and one move sooner, via 6.Nxe5 dxe5 7.Qh5+ Kd7.

But say Lev, it appears to me that 6.Nc3!, rather than any move of the king knight, is the best move on the board.  In fact it looks to me that White is close to winning. I assume you have something to say about it, so I shall wait for your reply.  Come to think of it, isn't "?!" a quite extravagant mark to put on such a sound and seemingly promising move as 5.Bb3?  You really should be more unassuming with your move decorations.

I mean, Tarrasch would never have condoned 5.Bxg8.
  

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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #24 - 02/02/12 at 15:58:51
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Except that 4.exf5 appears not to be refuted after all, if you take the effort to read further than West's first response. White is clearly better.

http://kenilworthian.blogspot.com/2012/01/refuting-philidor-counter-gambit-with....
  

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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #23 - 02/02/12 at 11:24:06
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To answer a few questions:

4 exf5 was refuted by James West in a posted reponse on the Kenilworth Chess Club website, the same source you gave.

As for the Newark Gambit, here is a recent game with it:

FM Christian Stevens (Canada) - Lev Zilbermintz
Internet Chess Club 5 0 rated blitz
January 25, 2012

1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 f5 4 Bc4 b5 5 Bb3?! fxe4 6 Ng5 d5 7 Ne4 dxe4 8 Qh5+ Kd7 9 Qf7+ Ne7 10 Qe6+ Ke8 11 Qf7+ Kd7 DRAWN.

  
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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #22 - 02/02/12 at 02:04:21
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Well since 1.e4 Nf6 2.d3 e5 3.f4 Nc6 is considered fine for Black, how bad can it be to play the same game but with "Black's" pawn already on "d5"?

By which I mean 4.Nc3.
  

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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #21 - 02/02/12 at 00:06:42
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Why bother with 4.Bc4 if 4.exf5 is good?

http://www.kenilworthchessclub.org/games/java/2012/anti-pcg.htm
  

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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #20 - 01/03/12 at 21:29:21
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GAMBIT quoted: First, I have the ICC computer call the Newark Gambit by a different name, one I never heard of. That second name is Philidor: Lopez Counter Gambit.
Search me, the only Lopez I know is Ruy Lopez from the 16th century. So, any PCG games by whoever Lopez was? Because I don't think Ruy Lopez proposed 4...b5 against the Philidor...

The name Lopez Counter Gambit is cited in very old sources, really 4..b5 is not a Ruy López idea ( it's your move, Lev ! ) if not 2..d6 3.Bc4 f5 is really his idea ( versus 3.Bc4 ); in fact, there are some games where Ruy López play this at 16th. century

PD: Lev, I've lost your email adress ( for next LG 7th. World Tourney ), also some players as Ferrero and others; please write me to amelchormunoz@gmail.com and tell me again your email, so in two weeks I would like to start our Tourney.

Alejandro.
« Last Edit: 01/04/12 at 20:40:55 by AMM »  
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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #19 - 12/27/11 at 22:59:29
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Roger Pedersen - Zilbermintz
West Orange Grand Prix (3)
Game/100 minutes
22 November 2011

1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 f5 4 Bc4 b5 5 Bxg8

Alejandro Melchor gives this move a "?!" while saying 5 Bb3 merits a "!". I disagree, as both moves can be handled over the board against human players.

5...Rxg8 6 dxe dxe 7 Qxd8 Kxd8 8 Bg5+ Be7 9 Bxe7? Kxe7 10 exf5 Bxf5 11 Nxe5 Kf6 12 Nd3 Nc6 13 00 Nd4 14 Nc3 c6! 15 Rfd1 Rad8 16 Nc5 Bxc2 17 Nc3-e5+ Kg6 18 Rd2 Bxe4 19 Nxe4 Rhe8 20 f3 Rxe4 21 fxe4 Nf3+ 22 gf Rd2 23 Rc1 Rb2 24 Rc6+ Kg5 DRAWN.

NM Ian Mangion - Zilbermintz
West Orange Grand Prix (5)
Game/ 90 minutes
13 December 2011

To begin with, the tournament started late because the room was being used for another function. This was reflected in the substraction of some time off the clock for both players.

1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 f5 4 Bc4 b5 5 Bxg8 Rxg8 6 de de  7 Qe2!?

My opponent surprised me by playing this move instead of the more widely-played 6 Qxd8 (see Pedersen-Zilbermints, above). Thank God I did some analyses of 7 Qe2 with my computer at home! Thus, I was not caught completely off-guard when my opponent played his move. After some thinking, I played...

7...Bd6

Now my opponent decided to get his King to safety and bring the heavy artillery into play.

8 00  Ba6!

Really, my only chance for tactics here. The threat is 9...b5, skewering the Queen to the Rf1. Of course, the move is also deeply psychological.

Mangion went into a long think here. After about ten minutes, he played...

9 Rd1 b4

10 Qe3 Qe7 11 Qb3 Qf7 12 Qa4+ Qd7 13 Qb3 Qf7, DRAWN.



  
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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #18 - 12/26/11 at 02:15:22
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Markovich, the initial moves were also provided on the first page of this thread.
  
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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #17 - 12/25/11 at 20:57:47
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The moves are 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 f5 4 Bc4 b5!

Now the game Pedersen - Zilbermintz, Grand Prix, West Orange, New Jersey, 2011, went 5 Bxg8 Rxg8 6 dxe5 dxe5 7 Qxd8 Kxd8 8 Bg5 Be7 and drawn in 24 moves.

NM Ian Mangion - Zilbermintz, West Orange Grand Prix, 2011, went 6 Qe2!? Ba6! and drawn in 13 moves.

I will supply the complete game scores on December 26 or 27th.
  
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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #16 - 12/25/11 at 19:20:19
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Gambit wrote on 12/25/11 at 16:51:40:
Merry Christmas and Happy Hanukkah!

Recently I got to play two Newark Gambits is one tournament, a rarity. Both games were very tactical and ended in a draw. Since I am at my mother's house, I do not have access to my score-books. I will post the scores when I come back home to Newark.

Happy New Year to all of you!


For those of us unaware of the moves leading to this gambit, why don't you supply them?  And a very happy winter solstice celebration to you!
  

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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #15 - 12/25/11 at 16:51:40
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Merry Christmas and Happy Hanukkah!

Recently I got to play two Newark Gambits is one tournament, a rarity. Both games were very tactical and ended in a draw. Since I am at my mother's house, I do not have access to my score-books. I will post the scores when I come back home to Newark.

Happy New Year to all of you!
  
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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #14 - 08/31/11 at 05:27:27
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AMM wrote on 08/26/11 at 21:08:10:
I am in accordance with Smyslov_Fan: the position, by trasposition of Latvian gambit, it was known after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Bc4 b5?! 4.Bb3! d6 5.d4 fxe4.

Now 6.dxe5! is strongest ( of course also 6.Nxe5!? dxe5 7.Qh5+ Kd7 8.Qxe5 etc. ) 6..c6 7.Ng5 d5 ( "Semi"-Latvian 2..f5 3.Bc4 d6 4.d4 c6 5.dxe5 fxe4 6.Ng5 d5 7.Bb3 b5 ) but now besides 8.e6 ( Schild-Bullockus, cr ICCF, 1979 ) where Black can improve with 8..Qa5+ 9.Bd2 Qc7 10.Nf7 Bxe6 11.Nxh8 Nf6 as another positions of Latvian, I would prefer 8.Nc3 Bb4 9.e6 or 8.Nxe4 etc. ( Strelis-Alberts, cr Atars 4, 1979 ) as my previous above quote


Finally home in Newark, New Jersey. I managed to locate the PCG:Newark Gambit folder in a box of old chess folders. A couple of interesting points need to be mentioned.

First, I have the ICC computer call the Newark Gambit by a different name, one I never heard of. That second name is Philidor: Lopez Counter Gambit.
Search me, the only Lopez I know is Ruy Lopez from the 16th century. So, any PCG games by whoever Lopez was? Because I don't think Ruy Lopez proposed 4...b5 against the Philidor...

Second, some games with the 5 Bb3 line that Senor Melchor so likes.

1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 f5 4 Bc4 b5 5 Bb3 fxe4 6 Nxe5?! dxe5 7 Qh5+ Kd7 8 Nc3 Nf6 9 Qxe5 Qe7 10 Qxb5 Qe7 11 Qa4 Qb4 12 Bg5 Qxa4 13 Bxa4 Bb4 14 000 Bxc3 15 bxc3 Nd5 16 c4 Nc3 17 Bb3 Nxd1 18 Rxd1 Na6 19 d5 c5 20 Ba4+ Kd6 21 Bf4+ Ke7 22 d6+ Kf6 23 Bc6 Rb8 24 d7 Bxd7 25 Rxd7 Rbd8 26 Rxa7 Nb4 27 Bxe4 Rd4 28 f3 Rhd8 29 c3 Rd1+ 30 Kb2 Nd3+ 31 Bxd3 R8xd3 32 h4 h6 33 a4 g5 34 hxg5 hxg5 35 Bc1 Rg1 36 a5 Rxg2+ 37 Kb3 Rd1 38 Be3 Rb1+ 39 Ka3 Ra1 40 Kb3 Rga2 41 Bxc5 Rxa5 42 Rxa5 Rxa5 43 Kb4 Ra8 44 Bd4+ Ke6 45 c5 Kd5 46 Kb5 Rb8+ 47 Ka6 Kc6 48 Ka7 Rb1, White forfeits on time, E4C5 - Zilbermints, Internet Chess Club 3-minute blitz, 6 September 2007.

Nex - Zilbermints, 5-minute rated blitz, ICC, 2004, went 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 f5 4 Bc4 b5 5 Bb3 fxe4 6 Nxe5?! dxe5 7 Qh5+ Kd7 8 Qxe5 Bd6 9 Qxg7 Ne7 10 Nc3 a6 11 Nxe4 Kc6 12 Bg5 Qf8 13 Qh6 Qxh6 14 Bxh6 Nf5 15 Be3 Nxe3 16 fxe3 Bf5 17 Nc3 Kb6 18 00 Bg6 19 e4 Nd7 20 e5 Bb4 21 Nd5+ Ka5 22 c3 Bf8 23 Nxc7 Rc8 24 Ne6 Bh6 25 a4 b4 26 c4 Rhe8 27 d5 Nc5 28 Nxc5 Be3+ 29 Kh1 Bxc5 30 e6 Bd6 31 Rf3 Kb6 =+ and 0-1/42.

kikian - Zilbermints, ICC 3 0 rated blitz, 28 May 2005, went 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 f5 4 Bc4 b5 5 Bb3 fxe4 6 Nxe5 dxe5 7 Qh5+ Kd7 8 Bxg8 Rxg8 9 Qf7+ Kc6 10 Qxg8?? Bb4+ 0-1.    

The game Schild-Bullockus cr, 1979 (noted as 1988 in the chesslive.de database) went 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 f5 3 Bc4 b5 4 Bb3 d6 5 d4 fxe4 6 Ng5 d5 7 dxe5 c6 8 e6 Nh6? 1-0/20.

Instead, the computer suggests 8...Nf6! 9 Nf7 Qc7 10 Nxh8 Bxe6 11 Nc3 Nbd7 12 f3 ef3 13 gf3 000 14 Be3 Re8 15 00 Bd6 16 Qd2 Nc5 =
« Last Edit: 08/31/11 at 15:55:03 by Gambit »  
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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #13 - 08/28/11 at 00:56:41
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Glad to see some people have humor.
  
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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #12 - 08/27/11 at 01:01:57
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ErictheRed wrote on 08/26/11 at 15:49:29:
Why do people care about Gambit's chess cowardice remarks?  Though I never get to read them, I wouldn't think they violate forum rules; they're just annoying.  On the other hand we see blatant personal attacks in other threads for which I think people should be banned and nothing happens...


Personally I think they're hilarious.
  

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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #11 - 08/26/11 at 23:07:48
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ErictheRed wrote on 08/26/11 at 15:49:29:
Why do people care about Gambit's chess cowardice remarks?  Though I never get to read them, I wouldn't think they violate forum rules; they're just annoying.  On the other hand we see blatant personal attacks in other threads for which I think people should be banned and nothing happens...


Something there...
  
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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #10 - 08/26/11 at 22:35:39
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It was known to me too, but there are very games with this transposition. I do have books on the Latvian Gambit, and they do not have that many games with this transposition.
That said, Alejandro, you just mentioned where Black can improve after! So this is no refutation.

I am at my mother's house and do not have access to my archives until Monday. You will have to wait until then for me to post more Newark Gambit games.
  
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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #9 - 08/26/11 at 21:08:10
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I am in accordance with Smyslov_Fan: the position, by trasposition of Latvian gambit, it was known after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Bc4 b5?! 4.Bb3! d6 5.d4 fxe4.

Now 6.dxe5! is strongest ( of course also 6.Nxe5!? dxe5 7.Qh5+ Kd7 8.Qxe5 etc. ) 6..c6 7.Ng5 d5 ( "Semi"-Latvian 2..f5 3.Bc4 d6 4.d4 c6 5.dxe5 fxe4 6.Ng5 d5 7.Bb3 b5 ) but now besides 8.e6 ( Schild-Bullockus, cr ICCF, 1979 ) where Black can improve with 8..Qa5+ 9.Bd2 Qc7 10.Nf7 Bxe6 11.Nxh8 Nf6 as another positions of Latvian, I would prefer 8.Nc3 Bb4 9.e6 or 8.Nxe4 etc. ( Strelis-Alberts, cr Atars 4, 1979 ) as my previous above quote
  
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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #8 - 08/26/11 at 15:49:29
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Why do people care about Gambit's chess cowardice remarks?  Though I never get to read them, I wouldn't think they violate forum rules; they're just annoying.  On the other hand we see blatant personal attacks in other threads for which I think people should be banned and nothing happens...
  
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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #7 - 08/26/11 at 13:35:54
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Gambit wrote on 08/26/11 at 03:10:34:
I spent all day typing and doing Internet research, so my back hurts. However, I did find the following game I played in 2009 on Internet Chess Club:

Cellardoor  (2051 ICC)- Zilbermints (2201 ICC)
ICC 3 0 rated blitz
19 January 2009
Philidor Counter Gambit: Newark Gambit

1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 f5 4 Bc4 b5 5 Bb3 fxe4 6 Nxe5 dxe5 7 Qh5+ Kd7 8 Nc3 Nf6 9 Qxe5 Bd6 10 Qxb5+ c6 11 Qg5 Qe7 12 00 h6 13 Qe3 Kc7 14 h3 Bf5 15 d5 Qe5 16 g3 Bxh3 17 Re1 Red8 18 dxc6 Nxc6 19 Bd2 Ng4 and 0-1, 46.


Ok, the Newark Gambit may work in 3-minute games. But only if White makes a number of mistakes apparently.  6.de5 would have refuted the gambit.

  
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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #6 - 08/26/11 at 03:10:34
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I spent all day typing and doing Internet research, so my back hurts. However, I did find the following game I played in 2009 on Internet Chess Club:

Cellardoor  (2051 ICC)- Zilbermints (2201 ICC)
ICC 3 0 rated blitz
19 January 2009
Philidor Counter Gambit: Newark Gambit

1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 f5 4 Bc4 b5 5 Bb3 fxe4 6 Nxe5 dxe5 7 Qh5+ Kd7 8 Nc3 Nf6 9 Qxe5 Bd6 10 Qxb5+ c6 11 Qg5 Qe7 12 00 h6 13 Qe3 Kc7 14 h3 Bf5 15 d5 Qe5 16 g3 Bxh3 17 Re1 Red8 18 dxc6 Nxc6 19 Bd2 Ng4 and 0-1, 46.

  
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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #5 - 08/20/11 at 05:33:01
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[quotation of Gambit's foregoing 'chess cowardice' remark redacted by Markovich]

Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
« Last Edit: 08/20/11 at 14:44:42 by Markovich »  

2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE.

FIDE based on just 27 games.
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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #4 - 08/20/11 at 04:18:53
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I agree with what NM James West proposes, 8...Kc6! etc., looks reasonable. Since I am aboard the ship Carribean Princess en route to New York from Rhode Island, it will be days before I respond with analyses. All my archives are at home.

[Comment about "chess cowardice" redacted by Markovich.  NO MORE ABOUT CHESS COWARDICE, LEV!  (That's you I'm shouting at.)  The next time I see one I'm just going to start deleting all your posts.]
« Last Edit: 08/20/11 at 14:45:48 by Markovich »  
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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #3 - 08/18/11 at 16:17:35
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In a recent post of PCG specialist American NM Jim West ( http://jimwestonchess.blogspot.com/ ) write after 5..fxe4 6.Nxe5 dxe5 7.Qh5+ Kd7 8.dxe5 second player should to play 8..Kc6 (!?) - instead of my previous 8..c6 - 9.Qe2 Bc5 10.Nc3 Kb7 11.Nxe4 Bb6 in the spirit of some lines on Latvian with the same variation where Black King has a possible bolt-hole on b7. Maybe it's true, but 11.a4!? seems stronger, but also I prefer 6.dxe5! or 6.Ng5!? with a powerful initiative as anybody can see it playing some moves with Black pieces ...

Paradoxically in West book "The Dynamic Philidor Countergambit" ( 2nd. ed., 1996 ) he doesn't analyze 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 f5 4.Bc4 c6!? ( only 4..exd4; 4..fxe4; and 4..Nc6 ) 5.dxe5 fxe4 6.Ng5 d5 ( I know 6 games ) trasposing to above noted Schild-Bullockus, cr ICCF, 1979 via LG: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Bc4 b5?! 4.Bb3! d6 5.d4 fxe4 6.Ng5 ( 6.dxe5! is even better ) 6..d5 7.dxe5 c6 ( see The Latvian gambit lives!, Kosten, 2001, page 167 ) and now contradicting English GM I think best move is 8.Nxe4 ( instead of 8.0-0 in four Khulmann-Criel games, or "logical" 8.e6 played by Schild ):

  - 8..dxe4?? 9.Bf7+ Ke7 10.Bg5+ Nf6 11.Qxd8+ Kxd8 12.exf6

  - 8..Qc7 9.Nd6+ Bxd6 10.exd6 Qxd6 "which is not too bad" according Kosten, but I personally prefer White after 11.0-0

  - 8..Nd7 - relatively the best - 9.e6 Ndf6 ( 9..Ne5 10.f4 Ng6 11.Ng3 ) 10.Ng5 Nh6 11.0-0

Definetevely Lev Zilbermintz gambit ..b5?! seems refuted with the declined move 5.Bb3!
« Last Edit: 08/18/11 at 18:53:51 by AMM »  
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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #2 - 08/17/11 at 19:23:16
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breizatao wrote on 08/17/11 at 13:43:47:
AMM wrote on 08/16/11 at 03:59:18:
Somebody know something about this gambit ?, 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 f5 4.Bc4 b5?!. I've read some issues of http://www.ubutec.com/acn/ and all players play 5.Bxg8?! or 5.Bxb5+ when I see clearly 5.Bb3! give an easy White adventage. His author is a player called Lev Zilbermintz.

Later on I will demonstrate why 5.Bb3! is the correct move


With pleasure, Alejandro!  Smiley


With pleasure, Frederic ..!  Wink

Now I will demonstrate why this gambit is no correct.

Lev Zilbermintz, his author, say in http://www.ubutec.com/acn/ACN-JulySept2008.pdf pag.21 he found the move 4..b5 in 2003 to contend 4.Bc4 line ( in the PCG gambit ). However, this is not enterely correct so the move was also known as a trasposition from Strautin's line on Latvian gambit: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Bc4 b5 4.Bb3! d6 5.d4 where 9 games was played and even Tony Kosten in his book on Latvian (2001) give the retreat of the bishop as the best move. American player call Bb3 as "Newark gambit declined", but he doesn't give any analysis and only show 5.Bxg8?! and 5.Bxb5+ in next issues.

The refutation, on several ways, is very easy: ( 5.Bb3! )

                - 5..h6? 6.dxe5 Ne7 7.Nh4! Qd7? 8.e6 Fiorito-Alloin, 1983 
                - 5..Nf6? 6.dxe5 Nxe4? 7.Qd5 +- Ouwerkerk-Zagt, 1982
                - 5..exd4?! 6.Nxd4 fxe4? 7.Qh5+ +- Janssen-Boll, 1975
                - 5..Nc6?! 6.dxe5 ( or 6.Ng5!? ) 6..Nxe5?? ( 6..dxe5 7.Bd5! ) Niemand-Purins, 1983; now 7.Bxg8! and 8.Qd5 +-
                - 5..fxe4
                            - 6.Nxe5 dxe5 7.Qh5+ Kd7 ( 7..g6?? 8.Qxe5+ Qe7 9.Qxh8 +- Dinu- Popescu, 1995 ) 8.dxe5! ( 8.Qf5+?! Kc6 9.Qxe4+ Kb6 DePalma-Zilbermintz, 2011 and 8.Qxe5 Bd6 Hebrard-Jester, 1987 are not so good ) 8..c6 9-0-0 Atars-Gasser, 1969 and Diepstraten-Druke, 1990 both by trasposition   
                            - 6.Ng5!? Schild-Bullockus, 1979                            
                            - 6.Cc3!? Qd7?! ( 6..Nf6 7.dxe5 ) 7.Ng5 Courthiau-Simonet, 1982 by trasposition
                            - 6.dxe5!

Black has a ruinous position ever !
« Last Edit: 08/18/11 at 18:36:05 by AMM »  
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Re: C41: Newark gambit
Reply #1 - 08/17/11 at 13:43:47
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AMM wrote on 08/16/11 at 03:59:18:
Somebody know something about this gambit ?, 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 f5 4.Bc4 b5?!. I've read some issues of http://www.ubutec.com/acn/ and all players play 5.Bxg8?! or 5.Bxb5+ when I see clearly 5.Bb3! give an easy White adventage. His author is a player called Lev Zilbermintz.

Later on I will demonstrate why 5.Bb3! is the correct move


With pleasure, Alejandro!  Smiley
  
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C41: Newark gambit
08/16/11 at 03:59:18
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Somebody know something about this gambit ?, 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 f5 4.Bc4 b5?!. I've read some issues of http://www.ubutec.com/acn/ and all players play 5.Bxg8?! or 5.Bxb5+ when I see clearly 5.Bb3! give an easy White adventage. His author is a player called Lev Zilbermintz.

Later on I will demonstrate why 5.Bb3! is the correct move
« Last Edit: 08/16/11 at 12:58:35 by Smyslov_Fan »  
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