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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) In which shape is the Sweshnikov? (Read 16331 times)
Paddy
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Re: In which shape is the Sweshnikov?
Reply #16 - 09/06/11 at 12:04:45
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gewgaw wrote on 08/25/11 at 17:50:32:
Paddy wrote on 08/23/11 at 22:34:37:
After 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 e5 6. Ndb5 d6 7. Bg5 a6 8.Na3 b5 the line 9. Nd5 Be7 10. Bxf6 Bxf6 11. c4 definitely seems to be discouraging a lot of strong players from playing the Sveshnikov. If Black can show good counterplay (or a forced draw!?) against that, it will probably return to fashion.

Ok, this does not address your question directly, but it is worth knowing if you have not been following the theory for a while.  Smiley


Could you highlight Black´s problems in this line a bit, pls?
According to Pavlovic Black is okay after 11. ...b4 12.Nc2 0-0!?.


I claim no expertise in these lines. I merely note that 9. Nd5 Be7 10. Bxf6 Bxf6 11. c4 continues to score very well for White, was Morozevich's choice recently, and is the recommedation of Bologan in his new DVD series for Chessbase.
  
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bragesjo
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Re: In which shape is the Sweshnikov?
Reply #15 - 09/06/11 at 10:21:35
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I think it is a matter of taste in the 9 Nd5 lines. I did rather play white and others preferces black. I think that the better player wins.
  
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Re: In which shape is the Sweshnikov?
Reply #14 - 09/06/11 at 02:31:22
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When I played the Sweshnikow, I stopped playing the main line against 9. Nd5 and played various lines such as 9...Be7 10. Bxf6 Bxf6 11. Nc2 Ne7 or 11...Bg5 and 12...Ne7 with satisfactory results.
  

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Re: In which shape is the Sweshnikov?
Reply #13 - 09/05/11 at 09:51:51
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gewgaw wrote on 08/23/11 at 17:05:14:
Hm, this is the absolute mainline. Lots of moves are quite forced, especially by Black.


Exaggerated at least.

IMHO, the "main lines" against the Svesh are more or less equally distributed upon

1) the Rossolimo (Bb5 seems much more frequent after Nc6 then after ...d6)

2) the positional variation without the h4 break (Nd5 Be7 Bxf6 Bxf6, c3, Nc2, a4, Rxa4, b3, O-O ...)

3) [...] with the h4 break

4) the positional variation - clamping on the white squares (Bxf6 Bxf6 c4)

5) the Bxf6 gxf6 variation with c3, exf5, Nc2, Ne3 ... (experts vs.)

6) the Bxf6 gxf6 variation with the Nxb5 sacrifice

7) the Bxf6 gxf6 variation with Bd3 Be6 O-O Bxd5 (dismantling the sicilian)

7. is not so popular anymore since the Rb8 novelty, but may get a boost as it was recommended by de la villa. 3., 4. and 6. are "modern" treatments raising in popularity lately (and I would consider the Nxb5 sacrifice the most dangerous alternative by far), but I would not consider them more popular than the "quiet" treatment of 2.





To call the h4 sac the "absolute mainline" is a bit drastic, I would say. White's attack does not run smooth and easy and he has to find an efficient way to organize an ongoing attack while finding shelter for his king. The latter seems to be quite a problem, as a Kc1 is rather loose (Qf6 etc) and a Kc2 blocks the attacking route for the Ra2. Kd3 is interesting, yet brave! Despite its first appearance as very dangerous for black and the mind-boggling defensive resources black has to rely on (g5 / h5 ), I would guess that this line is perfectly acceptable for black. If this turns out wrong, black can rely on earlier alternatives like O-O + Rb8 instead of O-O + Bg5, which is also quite appealing.

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Re: In which shape is the Sweshnikov?
Reply #12 - 09/01/11 at 07:14:27
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gewgaw wrote on 08/25/11 at 17:50:32:
Paddy wrote on 08/23/11 at 22:34:37:
After 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 e5 6. Ndb5 d6 7. Bg5 a6 8.Na3 b5 the line 9. Nd5 Be7 10. Bxf6 Bxf6 11. c4 definitely seems to be discouraging a lot of strong players from playing the Sveshnikov. If Black can show good counterplay (or a forced draw!?) against that, it will probably return to fashion.

Ok, this does not address your question directly, but it is worth knowing if you have not been following the theory for a while.  Smiley


Could you highlight Black´s problems in this line a bit, pls?
According to Pavlovic Black is okay after 11. ...b4 12.Nc2 0-0!?.

The last game played in this exact variation tells me that it's not quite so. Andrei-Nestor Cioara 2430 vs Vasil Spasov 2591 (Sunny Beach, Bulgaria, 2011.08.31) continues like this: 11. ...b4 12. Nc2 0-0 13. g3 Bg5 14. h4 Bh6 15. Bh3 Be6 16. Qd3 Qa5 17. b3 Ra7 18. Kf1 Qc5 19. a3 a5 20. axb4 axb4 21. Rxa7 Qxa7 22. Ndxb4 Nxb4 23. Nxb4 Qb7 24. Nc2 f5 25. Kg1 g6 26. h5 Qb6 27. hxg6 hxg6 28. exf5 gxf5 29. Bg2 e4 30. Qd4 Qxd4 31. Nxd4 Rf6 32. Bh3 e3 33. f4 Bg7 34. Kf1 Bd7 35. Ke2 .... and 1-0 in 50 moves in an opposite-coloured bishops' ending with 2 connected vs 1 pawns. And V.Spasov is a known specialist in Sveshnikov - in fact he plays it for 25 years or so.  Wink
  
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Re: In which shape is the Sweshnikov?
Reply #11 - 08/30/11 at 16:57:46
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There is also Moiseenko's 9. Nd5 Be7 10. Bxf6 Bxf6 11. c4 Ne7!?
  
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Re: In which shape is the Sweshnikov?
Reply #10 - 08/25/11 at 18:59:01
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gewgaw wrote on 08/25/11 at 17:55:06:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 08/24/11 at 00:23:42:
gewgaw wrote on 08/21/11 at 21:10:10:
At the 23rd move Pavlovic analysed moves like Ra2, Kd3, Kc1 and in a small sideline he mentions 23.Rh2 Nd5 24.Nd5 f5 /Grigoriants - So/
Instead of 25.Qh1, it seems 25.Qg1 is more cunning and Black gets under serious pressure.
What´s your opinion?

Apparently your idea 25.Qg1! more or less refutes 24...f5. My computer prefers 24...Rg8, which looks about equal. Back in the 1970s when I played the Sveshnikov, nobody had these sophisticated h2-h4 attacks in their repertoire. Usually between move 14 and 18 the players shook hands and went home. - The line has become more dangerous, but Black shouldn't be worse.

I am surprised to hear about the strength of 11.c4, seems I have missed a few decades of theoretical developments.


Hi Stefan,
which engine do you use? "My" houdini doesn´t even mention 24. ...Rg8 in the top3 lines.

Rybka4. True, the PC swayed between h5, Bg3, Bf6 and Rg8. Since three of these four proposals (all roughly 0.00) were based on the ugly h7-h5, obviously my PC wanted to tell me that 24...Rg8 was the right move.
  
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Re: In which shape is the Sweshnikov?
Reply #9 - 08/25/11 at 17:55:06
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 08/24/11 at 00:23:42:
gewgaw wrote on 08/21/11 at 21:10:10:
At the 23rd move Pavlovic analysed moves like Ra2, Kd3, Kc1 and in a small sideline he mentions 23.Rh2 Nd5 24.Nd5 f5 /Grigoriants - So/
Instead of 25.Qh1, it seems 25.Qg1 is more cunning and Black gets under serious pressure.
What´s your opinion?

Apparently your idea 25.Qg1! more or less refutes 24...f5. My computer prefers 24...Rg8, which looks about equal. Back in the 1970s when I played the Sveshnikov, nobody had these sophisticated h2-h4 attacks in their repertoire. Usually between move 14 and 18 the players shook hands and went home. - The line has become more dangerous, but Black shouldn't be worse.

I am surprised to hear about the strength of 11.c4, seems I have missed a few decades of theoretical developments.


Hi Stefan,
which engine do you use? "My" houdini doesn´t even mention 24. ...Rg8 in the top3 lines.
  

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gewgaw
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Re: In which shape is the Sweshnikov?
Reply #8 - 08/25/11 at 17:50:32
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Paddy wrote on 08/23/11 at 22:34:37:
After 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 e5 6. Ndb5 d6 7. Bg5 a6 8.Na3 b5 the line 9. Nd5 Be7 10. Bxf6 Bxf6 11. c4 definitely seems to be discouraging a lot of strong players from playing the Sveshnikov. If Black can show good counterplay (or a forced draw!?) against that, it will probably return to fashion.

Ok, this does not address your question directly, but it is worth knowing if you have not been following the theory for a while.  Smiley


Could you highlight Black´s problems in this line a bit, pls?
According to Pavlovic Black is okay after 11. ...b4 12.Nc2 0-0!?.
  

The older, the better - over 2200 and still rising.
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Re: In which shape is the Sweshnikov?
Reply #7 - 08/24/11 at 13:00:08
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This evening it is to be found in a triangle.
  
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Re: In which shape is the Sweshnikov?
Reply #6 - 08/24/11 at 01:06:04
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I've had these very lines stored away in my notes just waiting for a CC game that's never happened yet, for either side! Grin
  
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Re: In which shape is the Sweshnikov?
Reply #5 - 08/24/11 at 00:23:42
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gewgaw wrote on 08/21/11 at 21:10:10:
At the 23rd move Pavlovic analysed moves like Ra2, Kd3, Kc1 and in a small sideline he mentions 23.Rh2 Nd5 24.Nd5 f5 /Grigoriants - So/
Instead of 25.Qh1, it seems 25.Qg1 is more cunning and Black gets under serious pressure.
What´s your opinion?

Apparently your idea 25.Qg1! more or less refutes 24...f5. My computer prefers 24...Rg8, which looks about equal. Back in the 1970s when I played the Sveshnikov, nobody had these sophisticated h2-h4 attacks in their repertoire. Usually between move 14 and 18 the players shook hands and went home. - The line has become more dangerous, but Black shouldn't be worse.

I am surprised to hear about the strength of 11.c4, seems I have missed a few decades of theoretical developments.
  
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Paddy
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Re: In which shape is the Sweshnikov?
Reply #4 - 08/23/11 at 22:34:37
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After 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 e5 6. Ndb5 d6 7. Bg5 a6 8.Na3 b5 the line 9. Nd5 Be7 10. Bxf6 Bxf6 11. c4 definitely seems to be discouraging a lot of strong players from playing the Sveshnikov. If Black can show good counterplay (or a forced draw!?) against that, it will probably return to fashion.

Ok, this does not address your question directly, but it is worth knowing if you have not been following the theory for a while.  Smiley
  
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Re: In which shape is the Sweshnikov?
Reply #3 - 08/23/11 at 17:05:14
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Hm, this is the absolute mainline. Lots of moves are quite forced, especially by Black.
  

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Re: In which shape is the Sweshnikov?
Reply #2 - 08/23/11 at 12:20:52
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Probably too specific - at least that is my reason. I find it impossible to accept the hypothesis that the answer on your question (in which shape ....) depends on White's 23rd and/or 25th move. So I drop out.
  

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