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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Eternity is long, especially near the end. (Read 21341 times)
AlanG
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Re: Eternity is long, especially near the end.
Reply #18 - 08/23/11 at 20:49:34
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MNb wrote on 08/23/11 at 20:28:17:
Is there any reason to distrust Niall Murphy and David Wilson? If we are going to accept Alan G's argument we pretty much can delete almost everything we pretend to know about Ancient History. As far as I am concerned: as long as nobody shows up who actually read the book and testifies that's not in it, I assume it is. If such evidence is not to thin for a scholar on Antiquitiy it's not to thin for me either.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Do you mean that you are still confident that it's in the book, even though it can't be found on Amazon search (or on Google books) ?
  
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TalJechin
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Re: Eternity is long, especially near the end.
Reply #17 - 08/23/11 at 20:30:48
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„Die Ewigkeit dauert lange und ein Ende ist noch nicht in Sicht." :)
  
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MNb
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Re: Eternity is long, especially near the end.
Reply #16 - 08/23/11 at 20:28:17
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TalJechin wrote on 08/23/11 at 14:05:28:
Did you search for the phrase in english or french?

Neither. I only followed your link

http://www.cisco.com/web/about/ac123/ac147/archived_issues/ipj_11-4/114_eternity...

and Ixquicked for "Woody Allen Side Effects".
Is there any reason to distrust Niall Murphy and David Wilson? If we are going to accept Alan G's argument we pretty much can delete almost everything we pretend to know about Ancient History. As far as I am concerned: as long as nobody shows up who actually read the book and testifies that's not in it, I assume it is. If such evidence is not to thin for a scholar on Antiquitiy it's not to thin for me either.
  

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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Eternity is long, especially near the end.
Reply #15 - 08/23/11 at 19:14:25
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So far, all I've found is physicists such as Hawking and Martin Rees quoting Allen.

Still searching for the source. It doesn't seem to be at 145Gev.
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Eternity is long, especially near the end.
Reply #14 - 08/23/11 at 18:46:11
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I had googled and hit the same source as TalJechin. So evidence for "Side Effects" is thin.

"Eternity is a terrible thought. I mean, where's it going to end?" is said by a character in Tom Stoppard's play "Rosencrantz and Guildenberg Are Dead", 1966. There was a film (1990), but Allen had nothing to do with it, it seems. But it's not risky to say that Tom Stoppard and Woody Allen influenced each other - and recycled quotes.
  
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Markovich
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Re: Eternity is long, especially near the end.
Reply #13 - 08/23/11 at 14:52:13
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Well, I solemnly avow that I heard Woody Allen say these words, or something very close to them, in one of his movies.  I just don't remember which one.  There are so many; and they are all somewhat similar, aren't they?  And Allen plays the same character in all of them.  That's not to say that they're not entertaining, of course.  I suppose I best liked Hannah and Her Sisters.

Anyway it may also have been said in his book Side Effects, but if so it's something that he chose to say also in that movie that I saw.

Concerning possibility that this was said by Kafka, we should recognize that he might have spoken these words in a casual conversation that somebody remembered and reported in, say, a magazine article.  Or he might have put it in a letter.  So just because it doesn't appear in one of his works doesn't necessarily mean that he's not responsible for it.  But for sure it will be impossible to prove that person X didn't say it.  That's why the burden of proof must be upon those who would claim that person X did say it.

Hell, maybe Napoleon said it during his last days on St. Helena.
  

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AlanG
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Re: Eternity is long, especially near the end.
Reply #12 - 08/23/11 at 14:49:26
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 08/23/11 at 14:30:07:
Regarding the fact that amazon.com's "look inside" doesn't have the quote, that would only be meaningful if amazon.com had the entire text up for preview. Which it doesn't.

Despite that, it's all searchable. If the quote was in a section that wasn't previewable it would appear as a grayed-out fragment.
  
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Re: Eternity is long, especially near the end.
Reply #11 - 08/23/11 at 14:30:07
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While it's always possible for a quote to have occurred centuries earlier, our fascination with eternity (and infinity) really took off with Cantor's heirarchy of infinities. This was in the 19th Century, so I would expect the quote to be from no earlier than, say, ~1850.

That of course still leaves Kafka in the running, but casts doubt on the possibility of Talleyrand saying it. I have no clue who Beauvais was. I don't think it really sounds much like Kafka either. I'd be more inclined to believe Borges said it, but without a reference to the quote, we're left with Allen ... for now.

Regarding the fact that amazon.com's "look inside" doesn't have the quote, that would only be meaningful if amazon.com had the entire text up for preview. Which it doesn't.
  
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TalJechin
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Re: Eternity is long, especially near the end.
Reply #10 - 08/23/11 at 14:05:28
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Quote:
But the match isn't over yet. Indeed it might be the case that Allen borrowed it from somebody else - like Kafka. But now the burden of proof is on his adherents.


Did you search for the phrase in english or french? If it's Kafka then it might be in yet another language (czech? german?). Not that Kafka would've cared, iirc he wanted all his writings burned after his death...

But the quote does have some dark humour in it, so it could be something he for example wrote in his diary. Personally, I hope it was Kafka as that somehow warps the meaning a little, while Allen as originator makes it yet another brief joke smiled at & quickly forgotten.

Though, most probable is that the real originator would be completely unknown to us, and only said it once hundreds of years ago. Good jokes and lies travel the world.
  
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AlanG
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Re: Eternity is long, especially near the end.
Reply #9 - 08/23/11 at 13:15:11
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MNb wrote on 08/23/11 at 13:09:38:

According to Amazon's look inside feature, the word "eternity" doesn't appear once.
  
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MNb
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Re: Eternity is long, especially near the end.
Reply #8 - 08/23/11 at 13:09:38
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Markovich wrote on 08/23/11 at 02:34:13:
On the other hand, it is known to have been said by Woody Allen. So the burden of proof does seem to rest with those who say Kafka.

That's a non-sequitur. "there must be an attribution somewhere. Somehow, somewhere, someone heard X say this and reported it" applies to Allen as well. Though I still would put my money on Allen, for the same instinctive reason as yours.

TalJechin wrote on 08/23/11 at 10:38:36:
finding a book that actually gives a source won't be easy - if anyone has the time...

Took me less than five minutes, though I couldn't have done it without your link.

TalJechin wrote on 08/23/11 at 10:38:36:
..... seems to be right, according to ....

This article refers to note 22 and 23. The latter source is an interview with Stephen Hawking from 2006. It's very doubtful if this source is independent and/or first hand.
The first is just

Quote:
Woody Allen, "Side Effects," 1980.


without indicating what that means. It appears to be a book:

http://www.amazon.com/Side-Effects-Woody-Allen/dp/0345343352

Allen - Kafka 1 - 0.

But the match isn't over yet. Indeed it might be the case that Allen borrowed it from somebody else - like Kafka. But now the burden of proof is on his adherents.
  

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TalJechin
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Re: Eternity is long, especially near the end.
Reply #7 - 08/23/11 at 10:38:36
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Stefan seems to be right, according to http://www.cisco.com/web/about/ac123/ac147/archived_issues/ipj_11-4/114_eternity...

Though I wouldn't be surprised if there's an earlier record of somebody saying something similar or about something else but with the same ending, Woody Allen is rather typical of the Jewish humour tradition.


Quote:
L’éternité, c’est long. Surtout vers la fin.

Attribué souvent à Woody Allen,
serait en fait de Robert Beauvais ou Franz Kafka, peut-être Talleyrand, voire Groucho Marx


Quote:
"Eternity is a long time. Especially towards the end.

Often attributed to Woody Allen,
is in fact Robert Beauvais or Franz Kafka, perhaps Talleyrand, and even Groucho Marx"


from: http://www.courtois.cc/citations/temps.html


One way to find the original source could be to search for the quote in books.google.com , but finding a book that actually gives a source won't be easy - if anyone has the time...
  
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Djy
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Re: Eternity is long, especially near the end.
Reply #6 - 08/23/11 at 09:20:06
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You've enterely right but the problem is that nobody can't prove anything!
Maybe somebody can ask Woody? If there is no copyright on that
  

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Markovich
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Re: Eternity is long, especially near the end.
Reply #5 - 08/23/11 at 02:34:13
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Djy wrote on 08/22/11 at 12:35:58:
MNb wrote on 08/21/11 at 23:41:48:
It's not on IMdB.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0073312/quotes

Wikiquote doesn't know where it's from:

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Eternity


Yes pretty contreversy and i affirm nothing but i just can say that 'experts'  are sure that much (a lot)older than Woody 1980

Can you cite any of these experts?

Fwiw, I did find a French website listing Kafka quotations, and including this one. But no citations were given and, for that matter, who knows how authoritative a website is?  IF Kafka said this, there must be an attribution somewhere. Somehow, somewhere, someone heard Kafka say this and reported it. So how, where and who?

On the other hand, it is known to have been said by Woody Allen. So the burden of proof does seem to rest with those who say Kafka.

My other problem with the Kafka attribution is that this zingy one-liner is completly characteristic of Woody Allen, not at all of Kafka (at least according to my sensibility).



  

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Djy
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Re: Eternity is long, especially near the end.
Reply #4 - 08/22/11 at 12:35:58
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MNb wrote on 08/21/11 at 23:41:48:
It's not on IMdB.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0073312/quotes

Wikiquote doesn't know where it's from:

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Eternity


Yes pretty contreversy and i affirm nothing but i just can say that 'experts'  are sure that much (a lot)older than Woody 1980
  

La connerie c'est la décrontaction de l'intelligence  Gainsbourg
La victoire est brillante mais l'échec est mat!  Coluche
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