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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) How Nimzo/Benoni/QID players defend flank openings (Read 11985 times)
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Re: How Nimzo/Benoni/QID players defend flank openings
Reply #18 - 10/19/11 at 08:20:54
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OrangeCounty wrote on 10/18/11 at 23:47:08:
To the extent that there is a thematic approach available to players of the Benoni, it would probably be 1...Nf6, 2...g6, 3...Bg7, 4...0-0, 5...d6, and 6...c5 (move order as appropriate).


Isn't there a name for this set-up? I think I've seen something about it here at the Forum...  Lips Sealed
  
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Re: How Nimzo/Benoni/QID players defend flank openings
Reply #17 - 10/18/11 at 23:47:08
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To the extent that there is a thematic approach available to players of the Benoni, it would probably be 1...Nf6, 2...g6, 3...Bg7, 4...0-0, 5...d6, and 6...c5 (move order as appropriate).  I'm sure there is a Symmetrical English where this is suboptimal, in theory, but Black can leave out ...d6 or ...0-0 for a while without interfering with himself, and as mentioned, he has to learn the Symmetrical anyway.

The exception is NID/Benoni players, who can play ...Nf6, ...e6, and then wait for Nb1-c3 to play ...Bb4.
  
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Re: How Nimzo/Benoni/QID players defend flank openings
Reply #16 - 08/24/11 at 13:31:28
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Oblonskij wrote on 08/24/11 at 13:10:48:
I'm a nimzo/QGD player and play the reversed Rossolimo against Nc3+g3, the Nd4-variation against the 4 knigths and the Keres against 2. g3. Would be more economic just to learn the reversed dragon, but i don't really like it.

Against 1. Nf3 i play d5.


A very good summary of why I generally prefer to play 1.Nf3 rather than 1.c4. To reply with 1..d5 against 1.Nf3 does require that you, as you state, are ready to play some form of QGD/QGA. Whites early Nf3 does limit his options, though.

I don't necessarily think that white has more chances of an objective advantage after 1.Nf3  than after 1.c4 (It's pretty remote either way) but the Kings English positions require a lot of preparation just to make sure not to end up in a worse position. The reversed Dragon is also a very tough (impossible?!) nut to crack theoretically, but the counterattacking type of positions makes it easier to play with white for most players.
  
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Re: How Nimzo/Benoni/QID players defend flank openings
Reply #15 - 08/24/11 at 13:10:48
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I'm a nimzo/QGD player and play the reversed Rossolimo against Nc3+g3, the Nd4-variation against the 4 knigths and the Keres against 2. g3. Would be more economic just to learn the reversed dragon, but i don't really like it.

Against 1. Nf3 i play d5.
  
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Re: How Nimzo/Benoni/QID players defend flank openings
Reply #14 - 08/24/11 at 08:40:23
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Slightly curious how many thematic options Nimzo/QID folk have really. There's e5 with an (maybe early) Bb4, the Nimzo English/QID complex, Hedgehogs etc etc.

Can't force any of those vs all of whites options I suppose.

In terms of patterns though you'll find them playing lots of things as lots of people play the Nimzo/QID, in a variety of styles Smiley
  
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Re: How Nimzo/Benoni/QID players defend flank openings
Reply #13 - 08/23/11 at 23:44:03
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MNb wrote on 08/23/11 at 12:35:25:
My argument was that the Benoniplayer has to learn the Symmetrical English with an early d4 anyway and that it thus makes sense to look at 1...c5. That includes White's setups without d2-d4 indeed. I just assumed that readers are smart enough not to need me to point out that specifically.


Apparently you're unable to figure out what the thread-starter was asking for. Here, let me quote it for you:

Quote:
Is there any pattern here? Any thematic approach? Or do they just pick an English?


Quote:
You haven't contradicted this. Also note that I did not really contradict you; it's more like an addition. That's why I wrote "not entirely true".


So all you've done is point out a rare transposition as if it somehow has relevance to the thread-starter's question. Let me save you the time: it doesn't. There is no thematic approach for a Benoni player, and pointing out rare Anti-Benoni transpositions doesn't change that. Period.
  

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Re: How Nimzo/Benoni/QID players defend flank openings
Reply #12 - 08/23/11 at 22:30:33
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MNb wrote on 08/23/11 at 20:13:09:
Paddy wrote on 08/23/11 at 16:09:36:
Between them, these two set-ups (as long as one is happy with them) pretty well cover all the 1 d4, 1 c4, 1 Nf3 stuff.

Nunn also quite often played 1.c4 e5 stuff as Black.
The funny thing about Nunn's switch from the Modern Benoni to the KID is that via the latter he quite often transposed back to the first. His brilliant win against Beljavsky, Hoogovens 1985 is the most famous example.


Thanks for pointing that out, but Nunn answered 1 c4 with e5 in only 5 games that I can find. As I wrote earlier, the Benoni/Tarrasch combination was his mainstay in the early part of his career, and then he switched to the KID.
  
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Re: How Nimzo/Benoni/QID players defend flank openings
Reply #11 - 08/23/11 at 21:24:59
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kylemeister wrote on 08/23/11 at 20:17:29:
Er, Beliavsky-Nunn wasn't a transposition to a Modern Benoni.

That is true, it was a Saemisch KID which sent me on a lifelong adherence to the Nbd7-lines i the Saemisch. The structure was  related to Benoni, but since black never played e7-e6xd5 it could never be classified as a modern Benoni at least.
IIRC the sequence was 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.f3 Nbd7 6.Be3 c5 7.d5 Ne5 8.h3 (later 8.Bg5 was introduced by Timman and this is probably still critical) 8..Nh5 9.Bf2 f5 with wild complications, probably not bad for black. This is one of my all times favourite games and I tried to copy it for years as black. Few white players were willing to get involved though...
  
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Re: How Nimzo/Benoni/QID players defend flank openings
Reply #10 - 08/23/11 at 20:17:29
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Er, Beliavsky-Nunn wasn't a transposition to a Modern Benoni.
  
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Re: How Nimzo/Benoni/QID players defend flank openings
Reply #9 - 08/23/11 at 20:13:09
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Paddy wrote on 08/23/11 at 16:09:36:
Between them, these two set-ups (as long as one is happy with them) pretty well cover all the 1 d4, 1 c4, 1 Nf3 stuff.

Nunn also quite often played 1.c4 e5 stuff as Black.
The funny thing about Nunn's switch from the Modern Benoni to the KID is that via the latter he quite often transposed back to the first. His brilliant win against Beljavsky, Hoogovens 1985 is the most famous example.
  

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Re: How Nimzo/Benoni/QID players defend flank openings
Reply #8 - 08/23/11 at 16:09:36
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MNb wrote on 08/23/11 at 12:55:10:
Suba has mostly played 1.c4 Nf6, but varied from move 2 on.
Nunn in the 80's played about everything against 1.c4, including a transposition to the Tarrasch.
Tregubov seems to prefer 1...e6; 2...d5; and 3...c6.

All in all not that much of a help.


Nunn - yes, he's interersting. He was never a Nimzo-player. Before he took up the KID, his repertoire was based on the Benoni and, as you mentioned, the Tarrasch. Between them, these two set-ups (as long as one is happy with them) pretty well cover all the 1 d4, 1 c4, 1 Nf3 stuff.

(It seems his famous loss to Kasparov in the Benoni triggered his switch to the KID, to which he then remained faithful for the rest of his playing career.)
  
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Re: How Nimzo/Benoni/QID players defend flank openings
Reply #7 - 08/23/11 at 12:55:10
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Suba has mostly played 1.c4 Nf6, but varied from move 2 on.
Nunn in the 80's played about everything against 1.c4, including a transposition to the Tarrasch.
Tregubov seems to prefer 1...e6; 2...d5; and 3...c6.

All in all not that much of a help.
  

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Re: How Nimzo/Benoni/QID players defend flank openings
Reply #6 - 08/23/11 at 12:46:31
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There are not that many GM Benoni players these days, but you could look at the repertoires of these.

One that immediately comes to mind is Mihai Suba: Nimzo, Benoni and Hedgehog were his mainstays during his strongest years.
  
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Re: How Nimzo/Benoni/QID players defend flank openings
Reply #5 - 08/23/11 at 12:35:25
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BPaulsen wrote on 08/23/11 at 05:26:12:
In the Flank Openings white normally isn't going to play d4 that early and enter a standard Anti-Benoni.

My argument wasn't that White would.

BPaulsen wrote on 08/23/11 at 05:26:12:
Black playing hope chess for an Anti-Benoni transposition is a waste of time,

My argument wasn't that Black should.

BPaulsen wrote on 08/23/11 at 05:26:12:
he should put the bulk of his study into the critical Symmetrical English variations he's more likely to end up in.

My argument wasn't that White shouldn't.

BPaulsen wrote on 08/23/11 at 05:26:12:
Those critical variations, by the way, have zero in common with a Benoni

My argument wasn't that they have.

My argument was that the Benoniplayer has to learn the Symmetrical English with an early d4 anyway and that it thus makes sense to look at 1...c5. That includes White's setups without d2-d4 indeed. I just assumed that readers are smart enough not to need me to point out that specifically.
You haven't contradicted this. Also note that I did not really contradict you; it's more like an addition. That's why I wrote "not entirely true". This implies that it is for the largest part true indeed, at least when formulated in Dutch.
Fortunately Bottomdweller seems to have understood this.

As a sidenote: White played about 5 500 times the Anti-Benoni with 3.d4 or 4.d4 (I haven't specified on move order; nor have I included lines like 1.c4 c5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Nf3 Nc6 4.d4). That's considerably less than the early Kingside Fianchetto: 10 000 games. But it's not negligible.
You still may be right that the early d4 is toothless of course. I never have checked, because when playing the Benkö I was only interested in the Kasparov Gambit (because of 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.Nf3 cxd4 4.Nxd4 e5). Of course I looked at 1.c4 c5 2.g3 and 2.Nc3/3.g3 as well.
  

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Re: How Nimzo/Benoni/QID players defend flank openings
Reply #4 - 08/23/11 at 05:26:12
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MNb wrote on 08/23/11 at 02:19:47:
That's not entirely true. After all White is not obliged to enter the Benoni after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 or 2...e6 3.Nc3 c5. For this reason it makes sense that the Benoni player choses the symmetrical defence and transposes in case White still plays an early d2-d4.


Those Anti-Benonis with d4 already included are toothless.

In the Flank Openings white normally isn't going to play d4 that early and enter a standard Anti-Benoni. Black playing hope chess for an Anti-Benoni transposition is a waste of time, he should put the bulk of his study into the critical Symmetrical English variations he's more likely to end up in. Those critical variations, by the way, have zero in common with a Benoni unless black forces himself into an inferior version by wasting time with ...Nc6 to provoke d5.

Bottom line for Benoni players: they need to find something they're comfortable with, because there is nothing "thematic" that he can get white into without white screwing up.
  

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