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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C25-C29: Vienna Opening (Read 32652 times)
BPaulsen
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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #57 - 10/04/11 at 00:30:05
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I originally mentioned this as something I use with high school players, who typically aren't very well trained (no prior tournament experience) and have no long-term goals.

3. g3 Vienna works well for that crowd, from experience.

Scholastic players that intend to actually go somewhere in chess are a different issue.
  

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Markovich
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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #56 - 10/03/11 at 13:48:08
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 10/03/11 at 07:07:15:
BPaulsen wrote on 10/02/11 at 23:33:07:
Getting some compensation for a pawn doesn't qualify as a cheapo. Cheapos would be a line in which there's tactical traps to avoid (the 3...h5 stuff earlier might qualify as white has to at least pay attention early on).

So yes, my statement stands as of right now.

I see, it means fool-proof: teacher can walk around without having to worry that his pupil makes a terrible blunder in the first few moves. I agree. 3.g3 is a perfect choice in this respect.


The entirety of ECO offers no system that can protect a scholastic player from being outplayed tactically, or from making gross blunders.  Scholastic games are riddled with ridiculous mistakes, and the whole problem of developing scholastic players comes down to inculcating sound principles and good tactics.  My approach was to encourage players to play into open positions where tactics come to the fore.  If you go the opposite way, I think you really risk that your players won't develop the tactical acumen essential for this game.  It's great when a kid comes to you after the round and says, "I found a tactic!"

Also as a matter of principle, I would criticize a scholastic player who played 3.g3, saying that it may be a system, but why make another pawn move when your bishop already has an open path?  For us, such an observation seems stilted and even silly, but it's exactly what scholastics need to hear.  The idea that each and every move is a vital chance to pound your opponent is something you really have to develop in young players.  Later there'll be enough time for sophistication.

This thread is probably not the place to debate all that, but I thought it was worth mentioning.

P.S. If you teach a scholastic player to play g3, you substantially increase the likelihood of his being mated on g2. 
  

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Stefan Buecker
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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #55 - 10/03/11 at 07:07:15
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BPaulsen wrote on 10/02/11 at 23:33:07:
Getting some compensation for a pawn doesn't qualify as a cheapo. Cheapos would be a line in which there's tactical traps to avoid (the 3...h5 stuff earlier might qualify as white has to at least pay attention early on).

So yes, my statement stands as of right now.

I see, it means fool-proof: teacher can walk around without having to worry that his pupil makes a terrible blunder in the first few moves. I agree. 3.g3 is a perfect choice in this respect.
  
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Markovich
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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #54 - 10/03/11 at 02:11:42
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I would have said not that Black has enough comp, but that he has practical comp. Objectively I would prefer White.
  

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BPaulsen
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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #53 - 10/02/11 at 23:33:07
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Getting some compensation for a pawn doesn't qualify as a cheapo. Cheapos would be a line in which there's tactical traps to avoid (the 3...h5 stuff earlier might qualify as white has to at least pay attention early on).

So yes, my statement stands as of right now.
  

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Stefan Buecker
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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #52 - 10/02/11 at 20:57:43
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Markovich wrote on 09/30/11 at 00:39:10:
It definitely does not "seem as if it [3...b5] must be sound." It seems as if it must be crap. 

Markovich healthy again!  Smiley

[1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.g3 b5 4.Bxb5 c6]

5.Bd3 d5 6.Nf3 (Vass) leads to unclear play after 6...dxe4 7.Bxe4 (or 7.Nxe4 Nxe4 8.Bxe4 f5) 7...Nxe4 8.Nxe4 c5 intending Nc6 and good chances for Black. 

5.Ba4 d5 6.exd5 Bc5 7.Qf3 O-O 8.dxc6 Qb6 9.d3 (MNb) 9...e4!? 10.Nxe4 Nxe4 11.Qxe4 Bxf2+ 12.Kf1 Bxg1 13.Rxg1 Bh3+ 14.Rg2 Na6 15.Be3 Qxb2 +=. Or perhaps 8...e4!? 9.Qf4 Qb6.

But 5.Be2 (Markovich) looks strong. After 5...d5 White can even continue 6.exd5 cxd5 7.Nf3 d4 8.Nxe5! +/-. Black can play differently (say, 5...Bb4), but basically I agree that Black has not enough for the pawn; +/-.

So is 3.g3 cheapo-free, as BPaulsen claimed above? There are 15 games in the database with the gambit d5 followed by c6, a Goering Gambit Reversed. It doesn't look too bad, e.g. 3...d5 4.exd5 Bc5 5.Bg2 c6 6.dxc6 Nxc6 7.Nge2 0-0 8.d3 Be6 9.0-0 Rc8 10.Bg5 Be7 and Black has roughly enough compensation for the pawn.

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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #51 - 10/01/11 at 14:57:52
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Hey guys, nobody said this gambit of Stefan is sound. And Markovich found a good way to prove it with Bb5-e2 and d2-d3.. MNb's suggestion of Qf3 and so on is good, too.. What I liked here is the approach.. To find a move which seems good at first sight in a position where so many games were played...and nobody played..  Shocked
And then...I also liked the way you smashed to pieces this little suggestion "what about 3...b5?"..  Grin
  
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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #50 - 10/01/11 at 01:09:30
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MNb wrote on 09/30/11 at 04:44:33:
5.Be2 d5 6.d3 Bd6 7.Nf3 O-O 8.O-O Bh3 and Black has decent compensation.


I doubt it. After 9.Re1 White's ready both for d4 and for Bf1, and if Black closes the center, White can be very happy.
  

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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #49 - 09/30/11 at 19:51:48
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Yes, the 9.d3 line looks good for White to me, for if 9...Bg4 10.Qg2 e4 (a useful resource for Black in a couple of the other lines we've covered) then 11.h3! Be6 12.dxe4 Nxc6 13.Nf3, and while Black has some compensation, it's probably only enough for one pawn rather than two.

Re. Vass, yes, the idea 5.Bd3 d5 6.Nf3 Bd6 7.exd5 cxd5 8.Bb5+ Nbd7!? is hard to prove any advantage against (e.g. 9.d4 0-0 10.dxe5 Nxe5 11.Nxe5 Bxe5, which gives Black reasonable compensation).  I also don't think 5.Bf1 d5 6.d3 Bc5 7.Bg2 0-0 8.Nge2 dxe4 9.dxe4 (9.Nxe4 Nxe4 10.Bxe4 Bh3 =) 9...Qe7 10.0-0 Rd8 is too critical.

Thus at present I think MNb's latest suggestion is the most critical, and that 3...b5 is unsound- but I can see fair potential for creative players to have some fun with it.

Incidentally Black does have an alternative approach after 5.Ba4, 5...Bc5 6.Nf3 d6 7.d3 0-0, but I don't think Black has much comp after 8.Qe2 planning Be3 and 0-0-0.
  
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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #48 - 09/30/11 at 04:44:33
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5.Be2 d5 6.d3 Bd6 7.Nf3 O-O 8.O-O Bh3 and Black has decent compensation.
5.Bf1 d5 6.d3 Bc5 7.Bg2 O-O 8.Nge2 and 9.O-O looks good though.

SWJediknight wrote on 09/29/11 at 14:38:32:
It isn't- the line in question runs 5.Ba4 d5 6.exd5 Bc5 7.Nf3, when I'm guessing your 7...Bc5 was a "Freudian typo" type error (I often make those myself when writing out chess moves).  Thus the bishop is on c5.

You are right. What about 7.Qf3 O-O 8.dxc6 Qb6 9.d3 Bg4 10.Qg2 using the free move g2-g3? It's not clear to me that a Compromised Defence here is bound to fail.
I'm not as negative as Markovich, but certainly not as enthusiastic as S_F.
  

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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #47 - 09/30/11 at 01:10:45
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4.Bxb5 c6 5.Be2 d5 6.d3 (why on earth would White want to open the position?) and White's advantage is more than slight.

I suspect that 5.Bf1 d5 6.d3 favors White quite a bit as well.

That isn't deep analysis, by the way. Nor is White called upon to play a quasi-Evans.
  

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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #46 - 09/30/11 at 00:58:56
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Markovich wrote on 09/30/11 at 00:39:10:
It definitely does not "seem as if it [3...b5] must be sound." It seems as if it must be crap.  What, am I so weak just because I played 3.g3?

"At first sight I loved this move!" Give me a break.


I do hope you are quoting people accurately.

And yeah, I love the idea behind the move. It may not be sound, but I'd hate to have to face it in a timed game against a player such as Stefan. It's creative and has a positional idea to support it.

3.g3 may not be weak, but it certainly isn't as sharp as other 1.e4 15 systems, and Stefan's idea sharpens the game dramatically.

Stefan's 3...b5 gambit may not withstand deep analysis, but yes, it should be far more playable than most of those black gambits that involve losing a central pawn.
  
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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #45 - 09/30/11 at 00:39:10
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It definitely does not "seem as if it [3...b5] must be sound." It seems as if it must be crap.  What, am I so weak just because I played 3.g3?

"At first sight I loved this move!" Give me a break.
  

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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #44 - 09/29/11 at 14:38:32
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It isn't- the line in question runs 5.Ba4 d5 6.exd5 Bc5 7.Nf3, when I'm guessing your 7...Bc5 was a "Freudian typo" type error (I often make those myself when writing out chess moves).  Thus the bishop is on c5.
  
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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #43 - 09/29/11 at 13:51:51
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SWJediknight wrote on 09/29/11 at 09:35:52:
In view of this 7...0-0 may be better, as 8.d4 is well met by 8...exd4 9.Nxd4 Bg4, 8.Nxe5 by 8...Bd4 threatening 9...Re8(+).  8.dxc6 is also pretty messy after 8...e4 9.d4 Bb4.

I'm afraid this is not one of your best ideas, given the Bishop still remaining on f8 ....
  

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