ChessPub Forum - C25-C29: Vienna Opening

Vass God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1105 Joined: 06/22/11	Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening Reply #42 - 09/29/11 at 10:25:39	Post Tools	Print Post
	I think the position becomes pretty messy right after the black's 3rd move..


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SWJediknight God Member Offline Alert... opponent out of book! Posts: 915 Joined: 03/14/08	Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening Reply #41 - 09/29/11 at 09:35:52	Post Tools	Print Post
	MNb wrote on 09/28/11 at 11:03:18: 5.Ba4 d5 6.exd5 Bc5 7.Nf3 Bc5 8.d4 exd4 9.Nxd4 O-O 10.Be3 heading for the Queenside looks good to me. This is true, Black has nothing better but to comply with 8.d4 exd4 9.Nxd4 0-0 10.Be3, e.g. 10...Qb6 11.Qd3 cxd5 12.0-0-0 and Black doesn't have much to show for the pawn. In view of this 7...0-0 may be better, as 8.d4 is well met by 8...exd4 9.Nxd4 Bg4, 8.Nxe5 by 8...Bd4 threatening 9...Re8(+). 8.dxc6 is also pretty messy after 8...e4 9.d4 Bb4.


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Vass God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1105 Joined: 06/22/11	Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening Reply #40 - 09/29/11 at 08:21:38	Post Tools	Print Post
	SWJediknight wrote on 09/28/11 at 09:30:19: A good point- Black is essentially two tempi down on the Evans Gambit, as Black hasn't gained any tempi on the Bf1 and White also has the extra tempo g2-g3. However, if White isn't happy to put the bishop back on f1 (thus losing time, as in Stefan Buecker's sample line) then the tempo with g2-g3 can prove more harmful than useful, as it weakens the kingside light squares. I've had a look at White's attempts to play by analogy with Black's better defences to the Evans, and I think Black gets reasonable practical chances, though objectively Black's compensation may be insufficient for full equality: A) 5.Be2 d5 6.exd5 (6.Nf3 d4 7.Na4 allows Black to regain the pawn, with at most a small edge for White) 6...cxd5 7.Nf3 (7.Bb5+ Bd7 8.Bxd7+ Qxd7 9.Nf3 e4 10.Nd4 Bc5 11.Nb3 Bb6 with compensation, 7.d4 e4) 7...e4 8.Ne5 Nbd7 9.d4 Bd6 +=. B) 5.Bd3 d5 6.Nf3 Bd6 7.exd5 (7.0-0 0-0 8.Qe2 d4 9.Na4 +=) 7...cxd5 (7...0-0 is also interesting) 8.Bb5+ Bd7 9.d4 e4 10.Ne5 Bxb5 11.Nxb5 Qa5+ 12.Nc3 0-0 +=. C) I think 5.Ba4 is riskier as it allows Black to sacrifice a second pawn for an increased initiative: 5...d5 6.exd5 Bc5 7.dxc6 (7.Nf3 Bh3, catching the king in the centre, 8.Nxe5 Qb6 followed by 9...0-0 is dangerous for White, and 7.Nge2 0-0 8.d4 exd4 9.Nxd4 Qb6 is merely equal) 7...Qb6 8.Qf3 0-0 9.Nge2 Bg4 10.Qg2 e4. White has two extra tempi on the Compromised Defence, but even so Black has dangerous compensation for the two sacrificed pawns. All in all, a very interesting idea! I tried with 5.Bd3 and found equality after 5...d5 6.Nf3 Bd6 7.exd5 cxd5 8.Bb5 Nbd7!? (instead of 8...Bd7)


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MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10756 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening Reply #39 - 09/28/11 at 11:03:18	Post Tools	Print Post
	5.Ba4 d5 6.exd5 Bc5 7.Nf3 Bc5 8.d4 exd4 9.Nxd4 O-O 10.Be3 heading for the Queenside looks good to me.

	The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged. GC Lichtenberg
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SWJediknight God Member Offline Alert... opponent out of book! Posts: 915 Joined: 03/14/08	Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening Reply #38 - 09/28/11 at 09:30:19	Post Tools	Print Post
	A good point- Black is essentially two tempi down on the Evans Gambit, as Black hasn't gained any tempi on the Bf1 and White also has the extra tempo g2-g3. However, if White isn't happy to put the bishop back on f1 (thus losing time, as in Stefan Buecker's sample line) then the tempo with g2-g3 can prove more harmful than useful, as it weakens the kingside light squares. I've had a look at White's attempts to play by analogy with Black's better defences to the Evans, and I think Black gets reasonable practical chances, though objectively Black's compensation may be insufficient for full equality: A) 5.Be2 d5 6.exd5 (6.Nf3 d4 7.Na4 allows Black to regain the pawn, with at most a small edge for White) 6...cxd5 7.Nf3 (7.Bb5+ Bd7 8.Bxd7+ Qxd7 9.Nf3 e4 10.Nd4 Bc5 11.Nb3 Bb6 with compensation, 7.d4 e4) 7...e4 8.Ne5 Nbd7 9.d4 Bd6 +=. B) 5.Bd3 d5 6.Nf3 Bd6 7.exd5 (7.0-0 0-0 8.Qe2 d4 9.Na4 +=) 7...cxd5 (7...0-0 is also interesting) 8.Bb5+ Bd7 9.d4 e4 10.Ne5 Bxb5 11.Nxb5 Qa5+ 12.Nc3 0-0 +=. C) I think 5.Ba4 is riskier as it allows Black to sacrifice a second pawn for an increased initiative: 5...d5 6.exd5 Bc5 7.dxc6 (7.Nf3 Bh3, catching the king in the centre, 8.Nxe5 Qb6 followed by 9...0-0 is dangerous for White, and 7.Nge2 0-0 8.d4 exd4 9.Nxd4 Qb6 is merely equal) 7...Qb6 8.Qf3 0-0 9.Nge2 Bg4 10.Qg2 e4. White has two extra tempi on the Compromised Defence, but even so Black has dangerous compensation for the two sacrificed pawns. All in all, a very interesting idea!


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MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10756 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening Reply #37 - 09/28/11 at 02:43:11	Post Tools	Print Post
	Smyslov_Fan wrote on 09/27/11 at 16:55:10: It seems like it should be sound. Or, at least about as sound as the Evans Gambit is. Despite Black not having played Bc5 yet?

	The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged. GC Lichtenberg
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Smyslov_Fan YaBB Moderator Correspondence fan Offline Progress depends on the unreasonable man. ~GBS Posts: 6902 Joined: 06/15/05	Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening Reply #36 - 09/27/11 at 16:55:10	Post Tools	Print Post
	Wow! It's almost an Evans Gambit in reverse. It seems like it should be sound. Or, at least about as sound as the Evans Gambit is. There is a problem tho: in the Evans Gambit, there are some critical lines that favor white precisely because Black has to respond to king-side threats with g7-g6 when he'd like to be consolidating in the center and Q-side. 3.g2-g3 may be a VERY useful move for white. But man, it would pose white with huge problems if they don't know the Evans very well.


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Vass God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1105 Joined: 06/22/11	Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening Reply #35 - 09/27/11 at 13:33:15	Post Tools	Print Post
	Wow! Amazing! Stefan, you're a generator of ideas. I admire your approach! It doesn't matter if white has some alternatives or not. At first sight I loved this 3...b5 move.


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Stefan Buecker

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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #34 - 09/27/11 at 13:02:23

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Once I was paired against a 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.g3 player in a Swiss tournament, about one hour left for preparation. At first I prepared a gambit in the Alekhine (which later worked OK in the game), then I started looking at 3...b5!?.

I still have no idea whether this is sound or not. For example: 4.Bxb5 (4.a3 Bb7) 4...c6 5.Bf1 d5 6.exd5 Bc5 7.dxc6 0-0 8.Bg2 Qb6 9.Qe2 Ba6 10.d3 Nxc6 11.Nh3 Nd4 12.Qd1 Bc8 13.0-0 Bg4 14.Nd5 Qe6 15.Ng5 Qxd5 16.Bxd5 Bxd1 17.Bxa8 Bxc2 18.Bg2 Bxd3 19.Rd1 Be2, about =. But White has some alternatives along the way, I guess.

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Vass God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1105 Joined: 06/22/11	Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening Reply #33 - 09/27/11 at 12:57:16	Post Tools	Print Post
	MNb wrote on 09/27/11 at 11:02:15: Vass wrote on 09/27/11 at 09:05:27: 1. e4 e5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. g3 Bc5 4. Nf3 d6 5. Na4 Nf6 6. d3 Bg4 7. Bg2 Qd7 8. h3 If White is going to play Nf3 against both the ...Bc5 and ...d5 variations it doesn't make much sense anymore to play the Vienna instead of the Four Knights. Yes, of course. I never said Vienna is better than the Four Knights. The only thing that can attract the first player in Vienna opening is its complexity. The 3.g3 setup tends to some positional play whereas 3.f4-setup is more of a Kings Gambit deviation.


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MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10756 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening Reply #32 - 09/27/11 at 11:02:15	Post Tools	Print Post
	Vass wrote on 09/27/11 at 09:05:27: 1. e4 e5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. g3 Bc5 4. Nf3 d6 5. Na4 Nf6 6. d3 Bg4 7. Bg2 Qd7 8. h3 If White is going to play Nf3 against both the ...Bc5 and ...d5 variations it doesn't make much sense anymore to play the Vienna instead of the Four Knights.

	The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged. GC Lichtenberg
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Michael Ayton God Member Offline ‘You’re never alone with a doppelgänger.’ Posts: 1947 Location: durham Joined: 04/19/03 Gender:	Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening Reply #31 - 09/27/11 at 09:10:39	Post Tools	Print Post
	[quote]Black's best line is likely 1. e4 e5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. g3 Bc5 4. d3 Nf6 5. Bg2 a6 with chances to equalize [/quote] Nice. I can see that by analogy with the 'Motwani' line discussed above, White's been committed to an early d2-d3 when he might have preferred Kh2/f4. The analogy with the Slow Slav is very helpful -- thanks. It explains why when you look at some of the two-blips positions you think 'Well, that ought to be quite good for me, but it doesn't look anything too wonderful'.


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Vass God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1105 Joined: 06/22/11	Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening Reply #30 - 09/27/11 at 09:05:27	Post Tools	Print Post
	As for 3...Bc5!? I can recommend a game A.Vitolinsh 2435 - V.Agzamov 2255, Moscow 1967: Download game in pgn format And if 4... Nf6 then 5. Bg2 d6 (5...h5 can be met by 6.Ne5 I suppose) 6. d3!? a6 7. O-O O-O 8. Bg5 h6 9. Bxf6 Qxf6 10. Nd5 Qd8 11. c3 as in E.Rozentalis 2591 - T.Nyland 2124, Tromsoe 2006 Edit: The black's setup with Nge7 is not dangerous I think. For example I.Marinkovic 2445 - M.Tosic 2465, Cetinje (Montenegro) 1993 goes like this: 1. e4 e5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. g3 Bc5 4. Nf3 Nge7 5. Bg2 d6 6. Na4 O-O 7. O-O a6 8. Nxc5 And all games lead to equality where white has a comfortable plan.


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BPaulsen God Member Offline I Love Light Squares! Posts: 1702 Location: Anaheim, CA, USA Joined: 11/02/08 Gender:	Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening Reply #29 - 09/27/11 at 08:44:57	Post Tools	Print Post
	Black's best line is likely 1. e4 e5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. g3 Bc5 4. d3 Nf6 5. Bg2 a6 with chances to equalize equalize. White will remain comfortable to play, but perhaps not more than that. That said, I don't see why black players should avoid the 1. e4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. g3 d5 line. All three results are on the table, and I don't see why 2...Nc6 is particularly special. On the topic of bishop hunting - it's similar to the Slow Slav's point. It's not that white is producing any significant short-term dividend, or even claiming some sort of definitive +=, the point is that it's a long-term asset white can try to make use of, giving him hopes of playing for more in what typically starts out as a roughly equal position.

	2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE. FIDE based on just 27 games.
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Michael Ayton God Member Offline ‘You’re never alone with a doppelgänger.’ Posts: 1947 Location: durham Joined: 04/19/03 Gender:	Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening Reply #28 - 09/27/11 at 08:34:01	Post Tools	Print Post
	4 d3 is a nice move-order wrinkle! Very interesting what you say about hunt-the-Bishop. There are some positions, e.g. in the Bishop's Opening and the 1 c4 e5 English, where (as I know from sad experience!) hunting down Black's KB leads only to equality or even slightly worse, or where the hunt is good but [i]only[/i] if White implements one sole correct incisive follow-up. It's sometimes hard for lesser players like me to get this right. An interesting positional topic -- I wonder if anyone knows of some writing on it. But perhaps in the g3 Vienna White need never be too worried about things here -- after all his setup both prevents aggressive Black ideas like ...Ne7/...Ng6/ ...Nf4 such as can happen in the Bishop's Opening, and is geared against an effective ...d5. Meanwhile, how [i]does[/i] Black equalise in the 2 ...Nc6 3 g3 Vienna?


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