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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C25-C29: Vienna Opening (Read 32643 times)
BPaulsen
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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #57 - 10/04/11 at 00:30:05
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I originally mentioned this as something I use with high school players, who typically aren't very well trained (no prior tournament experience) and have no long-term goals.

3. g3 Vienna works well for that crowd, from experience.

Scholastic players that intend to actually go somewhere in chess are a different issue.
  

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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #56 - 10/03/11 at 13:48:08
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 10/03/11 at 07:07:15:
BPaulsen wrote on 10/02/11 at 23:33:07:
Getting some compensation for a pawn doesn't qualify as a cheapo. Cheapos would be a line in which there's tactical traps to avoid (the 3...h5 stuff earlier might qualify as white has to at least pay attention early on).

So yes, my statement stands as of right now.

I see, it means fool-proof: teacher can walk around without having to worry that his pupil makes a terrible blunder in the first few moves. I agree. 3.g3 is a perfect choice in this respect.


The entirety of ECO offers no system that can protect a scholastic player from being outplayed tactically, or from making gross blunders.  Scholastic games are riddled with ridiculous mistakes, and the whole problem of developing scholastic players comes down to inculcating sound principles and good tactics.  My approach was to encourage players to play into open positions where tactics come to the fore.  If you go the opposite way, I think you really risk that your players won't develop the tactical acumen essential for this game.  It's great when a kid comes to you after the round and says, "I found a tactic!"

Also as a matter of principle, I would criticize a scholastic player who played 3.g3, saying that it may be a system, but why make another pawn move when your bishop already has an open path?  For us, such an observation seems stilted and even silly, but it's exactly what scholastics need to hear.  The idea that each and every move is a vital chance to pound your opponent is something you really have to develop in young players.  Later there'll be enough time for sophistication.

This thread is probably not the place to debate all that, but I thought it was worth mentioning.

P.S. If you teach a scholastic player to play g3, you substantially increase the likelihood of his being mated on g2. 
  

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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #55 - 10/03/11 at 07:07:15
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BPaulsen wrote on 10/02/11 at 23:33:07:
Getting some compensation for a pawn doesn't qualify as a cheapo. Cheapos would be a line in which there's tactical traps to avoid (the 3...h5 stuff earlier might qualify as white has to at least pay attention early on).

So yes, my statement stands as of right now.

I see, it means fool-proof: teacher can walk around without having to worry that his pupil makes a terrible blunder in the first few moves. I agree. 3.g3 is a perfect choice in this respect.
  
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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #54 - 10/03/11 at 02:11:42
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I would have said not that Black has enough comp, but that he has practical comp. Objectively I would prefer White.
  

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BPaulsen
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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #53 - 10/02/11 at 23:33:07
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Getting some compensation for a pawn doesn't qualify as a cheapo. Cheapos would be a line in which there's tactical traps to avoid (the 3...h5 stuff earlier might qualify as white has to at least pay attention early on).

So yes, my statement stands as of right now.
  

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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #52 - 10/02/11 at 20:57:43
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Markovich wrote on 09/30/11 at 00:39:10:
It definitely does not "seem as if it [3...b5] must be sound." It seems as if it must be crap. 

Markovich healthy again!  Smiley

[1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.g3 b5 4.Bxb5 c6]

5.Bd3 d5 6.Nf3 (Vass) leads to unclear play after 6...dxe4 7.Bxe4 (or 7.Nxe4 Nxe4 8.Bxe4 f5) 7...Nxe4 8.Nxe4 c5 intending Nc6 and good chances for Black. 

5.Ba4 d5 6.exd5 Bc5 7.Qf3 O-O 8.dxc6 Qb6 9.d3 (MNb) 9...e4!? 10.Nxe4 Nxe4 11.Qxe4 Bxf2+ 12.Kf1 Bxg1 13.Rxg1 Bh3+ 14.Rg2 Na6 15.Be3 Qxb2 +=. Or perhaps 8...e4!? 9.Qf4 Qb6.

But 5.Be2 (Markovich) looks strong. After 5...d5 White can even continue 6.exd5 cxd5 7.Nf3 d4 8.Nxe5! +/-. Black can play differently (say, 5...Bb4), but basically I agree that Black has not enough for the pawn; +/-.

So is 3.g3 cheapo-free, as BPaulsen claimed above? There are 15 games in the database with the gambit d5 followed by c6, a Goering Gambit Reversed. It doesn't look too bad, e.g. 3...d5 4.exd5 Bc5 5.Bg2 c6 6.dxc6 Nxc6 7.Nge2 0-0 8.d3 Be6 9.0-0 Rc8 10.Bg5 Be7 and Black has roughly enough compensation for the pawn.

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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #51 - 10/01/11 at 14:57:52
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Hey guys, nobody said this gambit of Stefan is sound. And Markovich found a good way to prove it with Bb5-e2 and d2-d3.. MNb's suggestion of Qf3 and so on is good, too.. What I liked here is the approach.. To find a move which seems good at first sight in a position where so many games were played...and nobody played..  Shocked
And then...I also liked the way you smashed to pieces this little suggestion "what about 3...b5?"..  Grin
  
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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #50 - 10/01/11 at 01:09:30
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MNb wrote on 09/30/11 at 04:44:33:
5.Be2 d5 6.d3 Bd6 7.Nf3 O-O 8.O-O Bh3 and Black has decent compensation.


I doubt it. After 9.Re1 White's ready both for d4 and for Bf1, and if Black closes the center, White can be very happy.
  

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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #49 - 09/30/11 at 19:51:48
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Yes, the 9.d3 line looks good for White to me, for if 9...Bg4 10.Qg2 e4 (a useful resource for Black in a couple of the other lines we've covered) then 11.h3! Be6 12.dxe4 Nxc6 13.Nf3, and while Black has some compensation, it's probably only enough for one pawn rather than two.

Re. Vass, yes, the idea 5.Bd3 d5 6.Nf3 Bd6 7.exd5 cxd5 8.Bb5+ Nbd7!? is hard to prove any advantage against (e.g. 9.d4 0-0 10.dxe5 Nxe5 11.Nxe5 Bxe5, which gives Black reasonable compensation).  I also don't think 5.Bf1 d5 6.d3 Bc5 7.Bg2 0-0 8.Nge2 dxe4 9.dxe4 (9.Nxe4 Nxe4 10.Bxe4 Bh3 =) 9...Qe7 10.0-0 Rd8 is too critical.

Thus at present I think MNb's latest suggestion is the most critical, and that 3...b5 is unsound- but I can see fair potential for creative players to have some fun with it.

Incidentally Black does have an alternative approach after 5.Ba4, 5...Bc5 6.Nf3 d6 7.d3 0-0, but I don't think Black has much comp after 8.Qe2 planning Be3 and 0-0-0.
  
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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #48 - 09/30/11 at 04:44:33
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5.Be2 d5 6.d3 Bd6 7.Nf3 O-O 8.O-O Bh3 and Black has decent compensation.
5.Bf1 d5 6.d3 Bc5 7.Bg2 O-O 8.Nge2 and 9.O-O looks good though.

SWJediknight wrote on 09/29/11 at 14:38:32:
It isn't- the line in question runs 5.Ba4 d5 6.exd5 Bc5 7.Nf3, when I'm guessing your 7...Bc5 was a "Freudian typo" type error (I often make those myself when writing out chess moves).  Thus the bishop is on c5.

You are right. What about 7.Qf3 O-O 8.dxc6 Qb6 9.d3 Bg4 10.Qg2 using the free move g2-g3? It's not clear to me that a Compromised Defence here is bound to fail.
I'm not as negative as Markovich, but certainly not as enthusiastic as S_F.
  

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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #47 - 09/30/11 at 01:10:45
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4.Bxb5 c6 5.Be2 d5 6.d3 (why on earth would White want to open the position?) and White's advantage is more than slight.

I suspect that 5.Bf1 d5 6.d3 favors White quite a bit as well.

That isn't deep analysis, by the way. Nor is White called upon to play a quasi-Evans.
  

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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #46 - 09/30/11 at 00:58:56
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Markovich wrote on 09/30/11 at 00:39:10:
It definitely does not "seem as if it [3...b5] must be sound." It seems as if it must be crap.  What, am I so weak just because I played 3.g3?

"At first sight I loved this move!" Give me a break.


I do hope you are quoting people accurately.

And yeah, I love the idea behind the move. It may not be sound, but I'd hate to have to face it in a timed game against a player such as Stefan. It's creative and has a positional idea to support it.

3.g3 may not be weak, but it certainly isn't as sharp as other 1.e4 15 systems, and Stefan's idea sharpens the game dramatically.

Stefan's 3...b5 gambit may not withstand deep analysis, but yes, it should be far more playable than most of those black gambits that involve losing a central pawn.
  
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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #45 - 09/30/11 at 00:39:10
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It definitely does not "seem as if it [3...b5] must be sound." It seems as if it must be crap.  What, am I so weak just because I played 3.g3?

"At first sight I loved this move!" Give me a break.
  

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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #44 - 09/29/11 at 14:38:32
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It isn't- the line in question runs 5.Ba4 d5 6.exd5 Bc5 7.Nf3, when I'm guessing your 7...Bc5 was a "Freudian typo" type error (I often make those myself when writing out chess moves).  Thus the bishop is on c5.
  
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MNb
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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #43 - 09/29/11 at 13:51:51
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SWJediknight wrote on 09/29/11 at 09:35:52:
In view of this 7...0-0 may be better, as 8.d4 is well met by 8...exd4 9.Nxd4 Bg4, 8.Nxe5 by 8...Bd4 threatening 9...Re8(+).  8.dxc6 is also pretty messy after 8...e4 9.d4 Bb4.

I'm afraid this is not one of your best ideas, given the Bishop still remaining on f8 ....
  

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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #42 - 09/29/11 at 10:25:39
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I think the position becomes pretty messy right after the black's 3rd move..  Wink
  
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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #41 - 09/29/11 at 09:35:52
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MNb wrote on 09/28/11 at 11:03:18:
5.Ba4 d5 6.exd5 Bc5 7.Nf3 Bc5 8.d4 exd4 9.Nxd4 O-O 10.Be3 heading for the Queenside looks good to me.

This is true, Black has nothing better but to comply with 8.d4 exd4 9.Nxd4 0-0 10.Be3, e.g. 10...Qb6 11.Qd3 cxd5 12.0-0-0 and Black doesn't have much to show for the pawn.

In view of this 7...0-0 may be better, as 8.d4 is well met by 8...exd4 9.Nxd4 Bg4, 8.Nxe5 by 8...Bd4 threatening 9...Re8(+).  8.dxc6 is also pretty messy after 8...e4 9.d4 Bb4.
  
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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #40 - 09/29/11 at 08:21:38
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SWJediknight wrote on 09/28/11 at 09:30:19:
A good point- Black is essentially two tempi down on the Evans Gambit, as Black hasn't gained any tempi on the Bf1 and White also has the extra tempo g2-g3.   However, if White isn't happy to put the bishop back on f1 (thus losing time, as in Stefan Buecker's sample line) then the tempo with g2-g3 can prove more harmful than useful, as it weakens the kingside light squares.   

I've had a look at White's attempts to play by analogy with Black's better defences to the Evans, and I think Black gets reasonable practical chances, though objectively Black's compensation may be insufficient for full equality:

A) 5.Be2 d5 6.exd5 (6.Nf3 d4 7.Na4 allows Black to regain the pawn, with at most a small edge for White) 6...cxd5 7.Nf3 (7.Bb5+ Bd7 8.Bxd7+ Qxd7 9.Nf3 e4 10.Nd4 Bc5 11.Nb3 Bb6 with compensation, 7.d4 e4) 7...e4 8.Ne5 Nbd7 9.d4 Bd6 +=.

B) 5.Bd3 d5 6.Nf3 Bd6 7.exd5 (7.0-0 0-0 8.Qe2 d4 9.Na4 +=) 7...cxd5 (7...0-0 is also interesting) 8.Bb5+ Bd7 9.d4 e4 10.Ne5 Bxb5 11.Nxb5 Qa5+ 12.Nc3 0-0 +=.

C) I think 5.Ba4 is riskier as it allows Black to sacrifice a second pawn for an increased initiative: 5...d5 6.exd5 Bc5 7.dxc6 (7.Nf3 Bh3, catching the king in the centre, 8.Nxe5 Qb6 followed by 9...0-0 is dangerous for White, and 7.Nge2 0-0 8.d4 exd4 9.Nxd4 Qb6 is merely equal) 7...Qb6 8.Qf3 0-0 9.Nge2 Bg4 10.Qg2 e4.  White has two extra tempi on the Compromised Defence, but even so Black has dangerous compensation for the two sacrificed pawns.

All in all, a very interesting idea!

I tried with 5.Bd3 and found equality after 5...d5 6.Nf3 Bd6 7.exd5 cxd5 8.Bb5 Nbd7!? (instead of 8...Bd7)  Wink
  
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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #39 - 09/28/11 at 11:03:18
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5.Ba4 d5 6.exd5 Bc5 7.Nf3 Bc5 8.d4 exd4 9.Nxd4 O-O 10.Be3 heading for the Queenside looks good to me.
  

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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #38 - 09/28/11 at 09:30:19
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A good point- Black is essentially two tempi down on the Evans Gambit, as Black hasn't gained any tempi on the Bf1 and White also has the extra tempo g2-g3.   However, if White isn't happy to put the bishop back on f1 (thus losing time, as in Stefan Buecker's sample line) then the tempo with g2-g3 can prove more harmful than useful, as it weakens the kingside light squares.   

I've had a look at White's attempts to play by analogy with Black's better defences to the Evans, and I think Black gets reasonable practical chances, though objectively Black's compensation may be insufficient for full equality:

A) 5.Be2 d5 6.exd5 (6.Nf3 d4 7.Na4 allows Black to regain the pawn, with at most a small edge for White) 6...cxd5 7.Nf3 (7.Bb5+ Bd7 8.Bxd7+ Qxd7 9.Nf3 e4 10.Nd4 Bc5 11.Nb3 Bb6 with compensation, 7.d4 e4) 7...e4 8.Ne5 Nbd7 9.d4 Bd6 +=.

B) 5.Bd3 d5 6.Nf3 Bd6 7.exd5 (7.0-0 0-0 8.Qe2 d4 9.Na4 +=) 7...cxd5 (7...0-0 is also interesting) 8.Bb5+ Bd7 9.d4 e4 10.Ne5 Bxb5 11.Nxb5 Qa5+ 12.Nc3 0-0 +=.

C) I think 5.Ba4 is riskier as it allows Black to sacrifice a second pawn for an increased initiative: 5...d5 6.exd5 Bc5 7.dxc6 (7.Nf3 Bh3, catching the king in the centre, 8.Nxe5 Qb6 followed by 9...0-0 is dangerous for White, and 7.Nge2 0-0 8.d4 exd4 9.Nxd4 Qb6 is merely equal) 7...Qb6 8.Qf3 0-0 9.Nge2 Bg4 10.Qg2 e4.  White has two extra tempi on the Compromised Defence, but even so Black has dangerous compensation for the two sacrificed pawns.

All in all, a very interesting idea!
  
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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #37 - 09/28/11 at 02:43:11
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 09/27/11 at 16:55:10:
It seems like it should be sound. Or, at least about as sound as the Evans Gambit is.

Despite Black not having played Bc5 yet?
  

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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #36 - 09/27/11 at 16:55:10
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Wow! It's almost an Evans Gambit in reverse.

It seems like it should be sound. Or, at least about as sound as the Evans Gambit is. There is a problem tho: in the Evans Gambit, there are some critical lines that favor white precisely because Black has to respond to king-side threats with g7-g6 when he'd like to be consolidating in the center and Q-side.

3.g2-g3 may be a VERY useful move for white. But man, it would pose white with huge problems if they don't know the Evans very well.
  
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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #35 - 09/27/11 at 13:33:15
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Wow! Amazing! Stefan, you're a generator of ideas. I admire your approach! It doesn't matter if white has some alternatives or not. At first sight I loved this 3...b5 move.  Cheesy
  
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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #34 - 09/27/11 at 13:02:23
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Once I was paired against a 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.g3 player in a Swiss tournament, about one hour left for preparation. At first I prepared a gambit in the Alekhine (which later worked OK in the game), then I started looking at 3...b5!?.

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I still have no idea whether this is sound or not. For example: 4.Bxb5 (4.a3 Bb7) 4...c6 5.Bf1 d5 6.exd5 Bc5 7.dxc6 0-0 8.Bg2 Qb6 9.Qe2 Ba6 10.d3 Nxc6 11.Nh3 Nd4 12.Qd1 Bc8 13.0-0 Bg4 14.Nd5 Qe6 15.Ng5 Qxd5 16.Bxd5 Bxd1 17.Bxa8 Bxc2 18.Bg2 Bxd3 19.Rd1 Be2, about =. But White has some alternatives along the way, I guess.
  
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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #33 - 09/27/11 at 12:57:16
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MNb wrote on 09/27/11 at 11:02:15:
Vass wrote on 09/27/11 at 09:05:27:
1. e4 e5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. g3 Bc5 4. Nf3 d6 5. Na4 Nf6 6. d3 Bg4 7. Bg2 Qd7 8. h3

If White is going to play Nf3 against both the ...Bc5 and ...d5 variations it doesn't make much sense anymore to play the Vienna instead of the Four Knights.

Yes, of course. I never said Vienna is better than the Four Knights. The only thing that can attract the first player in Vienna opening is its complexity. The 3.g3 setup tends to some positional play whereas 3.f4-setup is more of a Kings Gambit deviation.  Wink
  
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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #32 - 09/27/11 at 11:02:15
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Vass wrote on 09/27/11 at 09:05:27:
1. e4 e5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. g3 Bc5 4. Nf3 d6 5. Na4 Nf6 6. d3 Bg4 7. Bg2 Qd7 8. h3

If White is going to play Nf3 against both the ...Bc5 and ...d5 variations it doesn't make much sense anymore to play the Vienna instead of the Four Knights.
  

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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #31 - 09/27/11 at 09:10:39
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[quote]Black's best line is likely 1. e4 e5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. g3 Bc5 4. d3 Nf6 5. Bg2 a6 with chances to equalize [/quote]

Nice. I can see that by analogy with the 'Motwani' line discussed above, White's been committed to an early d2-d3 when he might have preferred Kh2/f4.

The analogy with the Slow Slav is very helpful -- thanks. It explains why when you look at some of the two-blips positions you think 'Well, that ought to be quite good for me, but it doesn't look anything too wonderful'.
  
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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #30 - 09/27/11 at 09:05:27
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As for 3...Bc5!? I can recommend a game A.Vitolinsh 2435 - V.Agzamov 2255, Moscow 1967:

And if 4... Nf6 then 5. Bg2 d6 (5...h5 can be met by 6.Ne5 I suppose) 6. d3!? a6 7. O-O O-O 8. Bg5 h6 9. Bxf6 Qxf6 10. Nd5 Qd8 11. c3 as in E.Rozentalis 2591 - T.Nyland 2124, Tromsoe 2006
Edit: The black's setup with Nge7 is not dangerous I think. For example I.Marinkovic 2445 - M.Tosic 2465, Cetinje (Montenegro) 1993 goes like this: 1. e4 e5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. g3 Bc5 4. Nf3 Nge7 5. Bg2 d6 6. Na4 O-O 7. O-O a6 8. Nxc5
And all games lead to equality where white has a comfortable plan.  Wink
  
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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #29 - 09/27/11 at 08:44:57
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Black's best line is likely 1. e4 e5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. g3 Bc5 4. d3 Nf6 5. Bg2 a6 with chances to equalize equalize. White will remain comfortable to play, but perhaps not more than that.

That said, I don't see why black players should avoid the 1. e4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. g3 d5 line. All three results are on the table, and I don't see why 2...Nc6 is particularly special.

On the topic of bishop hunting - it's similar to the Slow Slav's point. It's not that white is producing any significant short-term dividend, or even claiming some sort of definitive +=, the point is that it's a long-term asset white can try to make use of, giving him hopes of playing for more in what typically starts out as a roughly equal position.
  

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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #28 - 09/27/11 at 08:34:01
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4 d3 is a nice move-order wrinkle!

Very interesting what you say about hunt-the-Bishop. There are some positions, e.g. in the Bishop's Opening and the 1 c4 e5 English, where (as I know from sad experience!) hunting down Black's KB leads only to equality or even slightly worse, or where the hunt is good but [i]only[/i] if White implements one sole correct incisive follow-up. It's sometimes hard for lesser players like me to get this right. An interesting positional topic -- I wonder if anyone knows of some writing on it. But perhaps in the g3 Vienna White need never be too worried about things here -- after all his setup both prevents aggressive Black ideas like ...Ne7/...Ng6/ ...Nf4 such as can happen in the Bishop's Opening, and is geared against an effective ...d5.

Meanwhile, how [i]does[/i] Black equalise in the 2 ...Nc6 3 g3 Vienna?
  
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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #27 - 09/27/11 at 01:45:23
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[quote author=7B787274150 link=1316541004/26#26 date=1317058292]Interesting, BPaulsen, thanks.

After 4 Nf3 the 4 ...h4 sac has done well (albeit in only a few games), but could it be ... unsound?! Assuming so I guess Black should prefer 3 ...Bc5 which I forgot to mention before, intending a sounder version of the same idea after 4 Bg2 h5 (or else perhaps 4 ...d6 5 Na4 Nge7!?) ...[/quote]

4...h4 is premature. 5. Nxh4 Rxh4 6. gxh4 Qxh4 7. Rg1 +=. Black should try to insert ...Bc5 before attempting it, then it's fully sound.

Allowing white to hunt down the dark-squared bishop is bad long-term mojo similar to the 1. e4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Bc4 Nc6 4. d3 Na5 Vienna.

3...Bc5 4. d3 (but not Bg2) h5 5. Nf3 continues to prevent the ...h4 sacrifice from working correctly, I believe, due to a Qd2 resource that allows white to untangle.

Basically white can annoy black's intentions.
  

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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #26 - 09/26/11 at 17:31:32
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Interesting, BPaulsen, thanks.

After 4 Nf3 the 4 ...h4 sac has done well (albeit in only a few games), but could it be ... unsound?! Assuming so I guess Black should prefer 3 ...Bc5 which I forgot to mention before, intending a sounder version of the same idea after 4 Bg2 h5 (or else perhaps 4 ...d6 5 Na4 Nge7!?) ...
  
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Re: Vienna Opening
Reply #25 - 09/26/11 at 17:10:52
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SWJediknight wrote on 09/21/11 at 15:24:24:
As Black I once got confused by 2...Nf6 3.f4 d5 4.exd5 and I recall that I replied with 4...exf4, which tends to transpose to the Modern Defence to the King's Gambit after a subsequent Nf3 (although I went on to lose the game after misplaying the early middlegame).  I think this may actually be Black's best here, as I don't completely trust 4...Nxd5 5.fxe5 Qh4+ 6.g3 Nxc3 7.gxh4 Nxd1 8.Nf3 Nc6 9.Kxd1 as the queen swap may hinder Black's attempts to gain enough initiative for the lost pawn.


1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.f4 d5 4.exd5 Nxd5 5.fxe5 Nxc3 (This is a very interesting alternative to Qh4+) 6.bxc3 Qh4+ 7.Ke2 Bg4 8.Nf3 Nc6 9.Qe1 Qh5 10.d4 0-0-0 11.Kf2 Bxf3 12.gxf3 Qh4+ 13.Ke2 and now black has a very strong piecesacrifice on d4 for 3 pawns.
  
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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #24 - 09/26/11 at 16:55:09
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[quote author=2C2F2523420 link=1316541004/21#21 date=1317049307]An interesting system, even if it is equal! -- and also I think a very practical one for 'solid' Whites as BPaulsen perhaps implies.[/QUOTE]

I'd say it fits with any type of player, as the plans inevitably produce some sort of tactical complications eventually.

[QUOTE]
But I'm a bit confused by Black's multiplicity of defences. For example, in the [u]3 ...Bc5[/u] line, Motwani has won nice games after 4 Bg2 0-0 5 Nge2 Nc6 6 0-0 a6 (6 ...d6 7 Na4) 7 h3 d6 8 Kh2, but is White actually better here? (I guess he can play 8 d3 as well, or 7 d3 d6 8 Nd5.)[/QUOTE]

Regardless of any theoretical edge it's clear white's position is easier to play due to having a very clear plan that's not easy to defang.

[QUOTE]
Also, is there anything particularly wrong with [u]3 ...c6[/u] 4 d4 (4 Qe2 has been seen, but I guess it leads to an equal KIA position?) Bb4, or[u] 3 ...Bb4[/u] 4 Bg2 0-0 5 Nge2 c6?[/QUOTE]

3...c6 4. d4 typically results in comfortable positions for white.

3...Bb4 4. Bg2 0-0 5. Nge2 c6 6. d4 leads to similarly comfortable positions.

It shouldn't be stressed that white has anything real, as you sort of have to temper your expectations when you're playing the Vienna. 

[QUOTE]
Another question might be, can White usefully play 3 g3 after [u]2 ...Nc6[/u], or is [u]3 ...h5[/u] a problem? I suppose the answer must logically be 'Yes, it is a problem', since other tries commit Black to supposedly inferior non-3 ...d5 defences.[/QUOTE]

3...h5 4. Nf3 should be alright. After 4...Bc5 5. Na4!? is interesting.
  

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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #23 - 09/26/11 at 15:37:23
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I don't know about the status of ...Nd4, but ...Nxe2 looks an odd idea to me. But I admit I haven't thought of another plan! Is ...Nc6-e7 planning ...d5 possible I wonder?
  
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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #22 - 09/26/11 at 15:13:38
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That line with 8. Kh2 reminded me of this:  7...Nd4 8. Kh2 b5 9. d3 Bb7 10. f4 ±  Holmov-Kurajica, USSR-Yugoslavia 1969.
  
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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #21 - 09/26/11 at 15:01:47
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An interesting system, even if it is equal! -- and also I think a very practical one for 'solid' Whites as BPaulsen perhaps implies. But I'm a bit confused by Black's multiplicity of defences. For example, in the [u]3 ...Bc5[/u] line, Motwani has won nice games after 4 Bg2 0-0 5 Nge2 Nc6 6 0-0 a6 (6 ...d6 7 Na4) 7 h3 d6 8 Kh2, but is White actually better here? (I guess he can play 8 d3 as well, or 7 d3 d6 8 Nd5.) Also, is there anything particularly wrong with [u]3 ...c6[/u] 4 d4 (4 Qe2 has been seen, but I guess it leads to an equal KIA position?) Bb4, or[u] 3 ...Bb4[/u] 4 Bg2 0-0 5 Nge2 c6 (which could actually transpose into a Closed Sicilian with 2 Nc3 e6!)? Another question might be, can White usefully play 3 g3 after [u]2 ...Nc6[/u], or is [u]3 ...h5[/u] a problem? I suppose the answer must logically be 'Yes, it is a problem', since other tries commit Black to supposedly inferior non-3 ...d5 defences.

(Incidentally, this 3 ...h5 line inescapably reminds me of an amusing episode years ago when the UK publisher Black's asked me to comment on the editorial state of the projected 13th edn of [i]MCO[/i].) I soon discovered the MS was absolutely chock-full of errors, and reported this to Black's, who communicated it to the US team working on the book, who, comically, simply denied it, even when I sent them pages copiously marked up in red ink! The book subsequently came out with a massive number of the errors still intact. If anyone has a copy, try part A of note (e) on p. 20. I still remember trying to move that Queen to h4, while watching the fall of Ceausescu on TV!)

  
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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #20 - 09/25/11 at 10:43:34
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BPaulsen wrote on 09/22/11 at 12:34:29:
Nf3 is more ambitious. The position is then technically a Glek Four Knights by transposition (C47)

That particular game you cite has little relevance to the overall theory of the line. White's 10th move from that game is incredibly rare. His 9th move isn't even the most common. I'd expect black to be fine anyway.

The position after the 8th move is pretty much the main line. Play splits off from there with a lot of different equal continuations where "it's just a game." In correspondence black probably wouldn't struggle to hold a draw. Over the board there's plenty to play for given the imbalances.

Yes. I've been playing Vienna with 3.g3 as white for many years with some good results. But I never play it in my corr. games. The position is objectively equal.  Cool
  
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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #19 - 09/24/11 at 13:10:20
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MNb wrote on 09/22/11 at 22:51:36:
I know. But I have always wondered if Van der Sterren's plan can be applied in other lines too.


10...Qd7 as in S. Priemov-V. Babionyshev, Kiev 2000 is probably the better way to go (even though black lost the game he was doing fine).

In general white has more testing lines than 10. Be3 (and possibly 9. d3).
  

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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #18 - 09/22/11 at 22:51:36
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BPaulsen wrote on 09/22/11 at 12:34:29:
Nf3 is more ambitious. The position is then technically a Glek Four Knights by transposition (C47)

Thanks. Now everybody can figure the transposition out.

BPaulsen wrote on 09/22/11 at 12:34:29:
White's 10th move from that game is incredibly rare. His 9th move isn't even the most common.

I know. But I have always wondered if Van der Sterren's plan can be applied in other lines too.
  

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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #17 - 09/22/11 at 12:34:29
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Nf3 is more ambitious. The position is then technically a Glek Four Knights by transposition (C47)

That particular game you cite has little relevance to the overall theory of the line. White's 10th move from that game is incredibly rare. His 9th move isn't even the most common. I'd expect black to be fine anyway.

The position after the 8th move is pretty much the main line. Play splits off from there with a lot of different equal continuations where "it's just a game." In correspondence black probably wouldn't struggle to hold a draw. Over the board there's plenty to play for given the imbalances.
  

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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #16 - 09/22/11 at 11:43:51
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BPaulsen wrote on 09/22/11 at 01:35:04:
From the theoretical point of view 1. e4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. g3 d5 4. exd5 Nxd5 5. Bg2 Nxc3 6. bxc3 Bd6 7. 0-0 Nc6 is the main obstacle. Both sides have their chances.

Is the Knight going to e2 or to f3?
In the latter case Black has an obvious improvement in Conquest-Van der Sterren, Biel 1993.
  

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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #15 - 09/22/11 at 01:35:04
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urusov wrote on 09/22/11 at 00:34:39:
BPaulsen wrote on 09/21/11 at 22:59:38:
One of my favorite openings to teach high school chess teams (where the average level of competition tends to be lower and winning is the goal more so than ever becoming a master) is the 3. g3 Vienna. It always scored really well with the teams I taught - it's obviously equal but white's position can be pretty fun to play while being "cheapo proof", and useful for teaching long-term plans.

I have enjoyed playing the Vienna with 3.g3 also, but now prefer the Glek Four Knights (1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.g3) because of the annoying line 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.g3 f5!? which produces a Vienna with colors reversed after 4.exf5 Nf6 and White will eventually have to waste a tempo with 5.g4.  It may well be that this line is ok for White (as it is for Black), but I just don't like the idea of suddenly finding myself no longer playing the White side!


White doesn't have to accept the Reversed position. 4. exf5 Nf6 5. d3 d5 6. Bh3!? (F. Apaydin-A. Karagollu, Konya 2010) is actually quite interesting, and makes use of white's g3 move. Something like 6...g6 7. Bg5 seems quite fun for white.

From the theoretical point of view 1. e4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. g3 d5 4. exd5 Nxd5 5. Bg2 Nxc3 6. bxc3 Bd6 7. 0-0 Nc6 is the main obstacle. Both sides have their chances.

re: the Glek Four Knights. 4. g3 d5 5. exd5 Nd4!? is too dry for my tastes.
  

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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #14 - 09/22/11 at 00:34:39
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BPaulsen wrote on 09/21/11 at 22:59:38:
One of my favorite openings to teach high school chess teams (where the average level of competition tends to be lower and winning is the goal more so than ever becoming a master) is the 3. g3 Vienna. It always scored really well with the teams I taught - it's obviously equal but white's position can be pretty fun to play while being "cheapo proof", and useful for teaching long-term plans.

I have enjoyed playing the Vienna with 3.g3 also, but now prefer the Glek Four Knights (1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.g3) because of the annoying line 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.g3 f5!? which produces a Vienna with colors reversed after 4.exf5 Nf6 and White will eventually have to waste a tempo with 5.g4.  It may well be that this line is ok for White (as it is for Black), but I just don't like the idea of suddenly finding myself no longer playing the White side!
  
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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #13 - 09/21/11 at 22:59:38
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One of my favorite openings to teach high school chess teams (where the average level of competition tends to be lower and winning is the goal more so than ever becoming a master) is the 3. g3 Vienna. It always scored really well with the teams I taught - it's obviously equal but white's position can be pretty fun to play while being "cheapo proof", and useful for teaching long-term plans.

I wish I could get 3. Bc4 to work, but the 4...Na5 stuff is a total buzzkill. I've never been particularly fond of 3. f4.
  

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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #12 - 09/21/11 at 20:02:06
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I agree. 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Bc5 3.f4 d6 (Bxg1 4.Rxg1 exf4 5.d4 is good for White) 4.Nf3 is just a regular KGD.
2...Nf6 3.f4 d5 4.fxe5 Nxe4 5.d3 (5.Nf3 Bc5 - more precise than Be7 - 6.d4 Bb4 and Black is fine) Nxc3 6.bxc3 d4 7.Nf3 Nc6 8.cxd4 Bb4+ and White struggles to maintain equality.

The Pierce- and Hamppe-Allgaier Gambits have been discussed here. I don't remember what Black's best lines were, but the conclusion was that they were dubious at best.

It tend to opine that only 3.Nf3 and 3.g3 are worth trying. But 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.f4 exf4 4.Nf3 g5 5.g3 also might be worth trying indeed as g4 6.Nh4 probably will transpose to lines that have received more positive comments on this site: 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 g5 4.Nc3 not ...g4; 3...d6 4.d4 g5 5.Nc3 and 6.d4; 3...h6 4.d4 g5 5.Nc3 d6 6.g3.
So maybe if that 2...Nf6 3.f4 line can be revived I'll like the Vienna again.
  

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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #11 - 09/21/11 at 19:31:40
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My view is that the KGD is somewhat more promising for White than the Vienna lines that we've been discussing.  So as Black, unless I were a KGD specialist, I would not go for an early ...Bc5 against the Vienna.
  

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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #10 - 09/21/11 at 18:32:05
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I think i am going to try and compile on the information from this site on the 3. f4 lines.  I do appreciate the insight about the second move alternatives from black.  after Bc5, how bad is 3. f4?  I am perfectly comfortable playing the standard kings gambit ideas after Nc6 for black.  Those lines are always going to come equal or at least with compensation for whites sacrificed material.
  
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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #9 - 09/21/11 at 15:50:27
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True, I failed to recognise that transposition (5.d3 Bb4 and if 6.Bd2 e3, thus 5.Qe2 is probably most critical but then Black has a choice between 5...Be7, 5...Bd6 and 5...Bc5, each of which may give decent compensation).  Thus it seems that Black has at least two good answers to 4.exd5.
  
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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #8 - 09/21/11 at 15:34:42
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It's worth observing that 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.f4 d5 4.exd5 e4!? is a line of the Falkbeer that's supposed to be fine for Black (and dates back to the 1850's, when Morphy scored a brilliant win with the black pieces).
  

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Re: Vienna Opening
Reply #7 - 09/21/11 at 15:24:24
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Markovich wrote on 09/21/11 at 13:52:38:
One of the main bones of contention is 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bc4 Nf6 (I would not recommend 3...Nxe4 to anyone ambitious

I agree, but I wonder if I'm thinking of different reasons.  I think the so-called "Frankenstein-Dracula" variation gives interesting play for both sides, but White can deviate with the rather obvious 4.Qh5 Nd6 5.Qxe5+, the typical continuation being 5...Qe7 6.Qxe7+ Kxe7 7.Be2! (Harding, Andersson) and White might have a slight niggle in a drawish position.   3...Nc6 4.d3 Bb4 was also recommended by Emms in Play the Open Games as Black and strikes me as a complete response.  This line is also a problem for White if White wishes to meet 2.Nc3 Nc6 with 3.Bc4 (then 3...Nf6).  Perhaps White could try the new King's Gambit wrinkle 3.f4 exf4 4.Nf3 g5 5.g3!?, although I think objectively Black should still be at least equal there.

As Black I once got confused by 2...Nf6 3.f4 d5 4.exd5 and I recall that I replied with 4...exf4, which tends to transpose to the Modern Defence to the King's Gambit after a subsequent Nf3 (although I went on to lose the game after misplaying the early middlegame).  I think this may actually be Black's best here, as I don't completely trust 4...Nxd5 5.fxe5 Qh4+ 6.g3 Nxc3 7.gxh4 Nxd1 8.Nf3 Nc6 9.Kxd1 as the queen swap may hinder Black's attempts to gain enough initiative for the lost pawn.
  
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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #6 - 09/21/11 at 15:15:50
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When playing Black I always found myself to be quite happy facing Bc4 and only faced g3 once. However, f4 is a little less straight forward. There is a new DVD by Nigel Davies about the f4 line. Does anyone have it so they can give an opinion ? In the advertising one line discussed is 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.f4 d5 4.ed Nd5 5.fe heading into a kind of Steinitz King's Gambit. Whether this is a good idea I don't know. If it is though, it may be a good way to avoid being ready for the Petroff, Latvian and Philidor.
  
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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #5 - 09/21/11 at 15:05:48
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Against the 3.Bc4 Vienna Black has so many reliable defences that the main question these days is which one gives him/her the best prospects to take over initiative. An additional problem to 2...Nf6 3.f4 is how to build a consistent repertoire against 2...Nc6 and 2...Bc5.
If you ask me only 3.g3 and 3.Nf3 are serious tries these days - ie they are equal, but create enough imbalances to provide winning chances.
  

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Re: Vienna Opening
Reply #4 - 09/21/11 at 13:52:38
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walkingterrapin wrote on 09/21/11 at 03:57:45:
alright well i am in the process of playing alot of games with the vienna in both correspondence and on fics.  so i will look into the book. 


One of the main bones of contention is 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bc4 Nf6 (I would not recommend 3...Nxe4 to anyone ambitious) 4.d3 Bb4.  Now some people think that White gets a little something after 5.Ne2 d5 6.exd5 Nxd5.  I simply can't fathom that, as Black has played perfect moves and has achieved ...d5.  This also arises from the Bishop's Opening, so you should check out books about that as well.  Also important alternative is 5.Nf3 which, I believe, is due to Larsen.  The theory of 5.Bg5, which used to be considered White's best, is settled and regards Black's game as fully adequate after 5...h6.

3.f4 is interesting, but unfortunately it goes nowhere if Black is well-prepared.  3...d5 4.fxe5 Nxe4 and the most ambitious and challenging is 5.d3, but Black is fine after 5...Nxc3 6.bxc3 d4 or 6...c5.  The theory of 5.Nf3 is very old and Black is fine with 5...Be7 or 5...Bc5.  5.Qf3 is well-motivated and is related to the  Breyer Gambit of the KGA, but Black is supposed to be at least OK after 5...Nc6! 6.Bb5 Nxc3.

3.g3 is just a game of chess.
  

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Re: C25-C29: Vienna Opening
Reply #3 - 09/21/11 at 05:54:10
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Or, you could search this site for threads on the Vienna or C25-C29.
  
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Why play the Colle when
you can play 1.e4!!!!!!!!!

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Re: Vienna Opening
Reply #2 - 09/21/11 at 03:57:45
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alright well i am in the process of playing alot of games with the vienna in both correspondence and on fics.  so i will look into the book.
  
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Re: Vienna Opening
Reply #1 - 09/21/11 at 00:00:07
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Lane's book is OK, rather old by now, but the theory of the Vienna hasn't changed much. I don't do dvds.
  

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Why play the Colle when
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C25-C29: Vienna Opening
09/20/11 at 17:50:04
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Was wondering what the topics of the book The Vienna Game by Gary Lane and the Fritztrainer by Martin are about.  Is either one a solid source of Vienna opening information.  I am interested in the lines with 3. f4, 3. Bc4, and 4. g3 do not appeal to me.  If any of you have experience with either of these products please let me know. 
« Last Edit: 09/21/11 at 05:53:40 by Smyslov_Fan »  
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