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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C18: French Winawer, 5. a3, 6... f5 Analysis (Read 85087 times)
MartinC
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Re: French defence, Winawer, 5. a3, 6... f5 Analysis
Reply #9 - 09/30/11 at 13:34:44
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Ok so 8 Qg3 is independent and different. No pawn sacs really easy though Smiley 8 Qg3 cd 9 cd Ne7 10 Qxg7 Rg8 ^ Qc3+ x a1.  So white goes Ne2 or Bd2 and black wins time to castle kingside. May or may not like the subsequent play of course!

If weird/blocked is desired - and its an entirely legitimate way to play this stuff - then a few main stream ways. 6.. Nc6 ^ 7 Qg4 g6, when you'd probably find 8 a4 f5 9 Qd1 familiar Smiley Or even 6 .. Ne7 7 Qg4 Nf5/Kf8.

The most main stream for the moment is the 6 .. Qa5 7 Bd2 Qa4 stuff.  Thats very respectable and basically leads into long, drawn out manouvering games. 

You can see how many difference plans blacks position can support, and why 6.. f5 won't get refuted! Suspect its just a bit suboptimal.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: French defence, Winawer, 5. a3, 6... f5 Analysis
Reply #8 - 09/30/11 at 13:23:08
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[quote]1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e5 c5 5. a3 Bxc3+ 6. bxc3 Qc7 7. Qg4 f5 8. Qg3 

This is the problem Martin. What now?[/quote]

As I understand it, 8 ...Nc6!? here is all the rage: 9 Ne2 Kf7! and Black is meant to be OK (as long as he indeed doesn't drop the g-pawn by allowing a Qxg7 + Nf4-e6 cheapo ...).
  
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John
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Re: French defence, Winawer, 5. a3, 6... f5 Analysis
Reply #7 - 09/30/11 at 12:56:48
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MartinC,

I’ll tell you what the problem is, you are absolutely right that black is just a tempo up in the:
1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e5 c5 5. a3 Bxc3+ 6. bxc3 Qc7 7. Qg4 f5 8. Qh5+ g6 9. Qd1 - Line. But, the problem as I see it is not this line at all!

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e5 c5 5. a3 Bxc3+ 6. bxc3 Qc7 7. Qg4 f5 8. Qg3   

This is the problem Martin. What now?
If you go with the …Ne7 line your king side will get demolished, I know black is fine in that line but it’s quite simply not how I play chess and it is not the chess I have any interest in.

If: 8... cxd4 9. cxd4  - and now what?
Sooner or later black will have to go into a line where he is sacrificing some pawns. Not interested!
The problem with the early 6…Qc7 is not that of tempo it is that it allows Qd1-g4-(g3)
The whole purpose of 6…f5 is to stop all that whether or not it ends up being sound is a different matter. Whether or not it’s soeone’s style or not is for each us to deside – it certainly not my style to play a chaotic pawns sacing game. I much prefer to have a weird closed pawn formation I can build upon and for that reason as long as 6…f5 stands I will prefer it to 6…Qc7.
Well, that is unless you can show me a plan for black (in the 6…Qc7 line) where he doesn’t lose pawns then I will drop the 6…f5 variation straight to the bin Wink

Cheers
  
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Re: French defence, Winawer, 5. a3, 6... f5 Analysis
Reply #6 - 09/30/11 at 12:44:51
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Knightmare,

Not to be overly petty but to give a off-the-sleeve plan without the variation to back it up is… well… not very serious as I see it.
I think that your idea deserves attention but a lot can be set right at its start. It is double-edged for sure. With a broken queen side pawn formation and now an over extended one on the king side where is white going to castle? Especially when black hasn’t committed himself with …c5-c4 and the centre is still under pressure. 


[Variation: 1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e5 c5 5. a3 Bxc3 6. bxc3 f5 7. h4 Nc6 8. h5]

Or:

[FEN "r1bqk1nr/pp4pp/2n1p3/2ppPp1P/3P4/P1P5/2P2PP1/R1BQKBNR b KQkq - 0 8"]

Input that to chessbase to see all the lines:

8... Qc7 (8... Nh6 9. Be2 (9. Bd2 Nf7 (
9... Rb8 10. Nf3 O-O 11. Qc1 Ng4 12. h6 g6 13. Be2 Bd7 14. a4 Ra8 15. Ra2 Rc8) 10. Nf3 Qc7 11. Bd3 h6 12. Rb1 O-O 13. Kf1 a6 14. Be2 Na5
15. Rh3 Bd7) (9. Qd3 Bd7 (9... Nf7 10. h6 g6 11. f4 c4 12.
Qe3 Qc7 13. Nh3 Ne7 14. Be2 Bd7 15. Qg3 Nc6 {Black is fine, in fact i prefer
black!} (15... Ba4)) 10. Rb1 Qa5 11. Ne2 b6 12. Bxh6 gxh6 13. Qd2 O-O-O {black
is better}) (9. Bxh6 gxh6 10. Qd2 Qa5 11. Ne2 Bd7 12. Qxh6 cxd4 13. Qg7 O-O-O {
0-1}) 9... Qa5 (9... Nf7 10. Nf3 (10. h6 g5) 10... Qc7 11. Bf4 O-O 12. O-O b6
13. Qd2 a5 14. Rab1 h6 15. Bb5 Ba6) 10. Bd2 O-O 11. Nf3 Ng4 12. h6 Nxh6 13.
Bxh6 gxh6 14. Qd2 Rf7 15. Rxh6 Rg7 {defendable}) (8... Qa5 9. Bd2 c4 10. Be2
Nge7 11. h6 g6 12. Nf3 O-O 13. Rh3 Nd8 14. Rg3 Nf7 {defendable}) 9. Qd3 (9. Be3
h6 (9... Bd7 10. Rb1 Nd8 11. Nh3 Rc8 12. dxc5 Nc6 13. Be2 h6 14. f4 Nge7 15.
Kf2 O-O) 10. Ne2 Nge7 11. Nf4 O-O 12. Rh3 Bd7 13. f3 Rac8
14. Rg3 cxd4 15. cxd4 Na5) (9. Rb1 Nh6 (9... a6 10. Nh3 Qa5
11. Bd2 Nge7 12. h6 g6 13. a4 Nd8 14. Qc1 Rb8 15. f3 O-O)
10. Ra1 Nf7 11. Be3 a5 12. Nh3 b6 13. Bc1 a4 14. Bb2 O-O 15. Nf4 Na5) (9. Nf3) (9. h6 Nxh6 10. Bxh6 gxh6 11. Qh5+ Qf7 12. Qh4 (12.
Qxh6 cxd4) 12... Qc7 13. Rh3 cxd4 14. cxd4 Nxe5 15. Bb5+ Bd7 16. Qf6 Ng6 17.
Qxe6+ Kd8 18. Bxd7 Qxd7 19. Qf6+ Kc7 20. Rc3+ Kb8 21. Rb1 Rc8 (21... b6 22.
Rxb6+) 22. Rcb3 Rc7 23. Qa6 b6 24. Ne2 Qc8 {Completely insane but quite
defendable}) 9... b6 (9... Bd7 10. Rb1 Rd8 11. Be2 Nh6 12. Bxh6 gxh6 13. Kf1
O-O 14. Nf3 Rc8 15. Qd2 cxd4) 10. Be2 Na5 11. Nf3 cxd4 12.
cxd4 h6 13. O-O Ne7 14. Rd1 Bd7 15. Ne1 O-O 

black appear to be just fine and I didn’t even look at everything like 8…h6 or 8…Nge7 etc. 8…Qc7 seemed to be the most principled to me though.
  
Rating, roughly 2200.
I run a Chess Blog called ‘The Unemployed Dragon’ at: http://musiquewandchess.blogspot.com/
I play 1. Nf3 and the Catalan as White and the French and QGD as Black
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MartinC
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Re: French defence, Winawer, 5. a3, 6... f5 Analysis
Reply #5 - 09/30/11 at 10:55:33
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Qh5+ will surely tend to transpose to the 6.. Nc6 7 Qg4 g6 & f5 stuff? Thats known as reasonable and played. No reason to give up two tempi though. 7 f4 is just a horrible move.

In the end, this is the French Smiley Black can do all sorts of stuff early on and still be sort of OK. (5.. Bf8 for instance.).

The strongest complaint here is that this line really is pretty clearly a sub optimal version of 6.. Qc7 as 6.. Qc7 7 Qg4 f5 is a tempo ahead on this, and black doesn't want to play f5 fast after any other white move. Thus no genuine independent value.

Here's Khalifman in opening for white according to Anand (following a 50's correspondence game): 7 Be2!? Bd7 8 Rb1 b6 9 Nh3 Ba4 10 Bg5 Qc8 11 Nf4 c4 12 g4 and carnage. 

Probably no need for that, but thats very typical of what white could be after. Whether or not you should insert h4/h5 and/or a4 first very hard to sort out totally. Maybe a matter of taste.
  
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Re: French defence, Winawer, 5. a3, 6... f5 Analysis
Reply #4 - 09/30/11 at 10:11:56
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John wrote on 09/29/11 at 12:19:01:
1. e4 e6
2. d4 d5
3. Nc3 Bb4
4. e5 c5
5. a3 Bxc3
6. bxc3 f5 (to stop Qg4)



Just some impressions after following your 1st link:

- Playing the classical way with Nf3 / a4 / O-O wíll not give white any advantage (I guess maybe the resulting positions are even better for black, as he can make quick progress on the kingside)
- f4 simply does not look appropriate in this position IMHO. Where does the Bc1 go?
- Of the 3 moves you've checked the Qh5 looks best, but even here things are not as easy as it looks at first sight. 
Inthe line of FM Levin (1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e5 c5 5. a3 Bxc3+ 6. bxc3 f5 7. Qh5+ g6 8. Qd1 Nc6 9. Nf3 Nge7) I do not like Bh6, as that results in an exchange of Queens

I guess 7.h4 may be an idea, as the kingside is already weakened. So after lets say 7...Nc6 8.h5 blacks kingside looks a bit loose. White ideas with Rh1-h3-g3(-g6) will cause problems after 8...h6. But I don't think that black can allow h5-h6 in that position. Counterplay on the queenside (...Qa5) is the same as in the h4-mainline in the winawer (...Qa5 Bd2), but I doubt that inserting ...f5 is good for black in that line.

  
ELO 2060. Corr.: 2190. Which casts doubts if I ever knew what I was doing. At least on the Board.
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John
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Re: French defence, Winawer, 5. a3, 6... f5 Analysis
Reply #3 - 09/30/11 at 10:10:05
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My attempts with this move is primarily for sports but i go about it with these assumption(s):

1) Black has obvious weaknesses
2) It should be verified whether white by, "taking advatage" of these weaknesses can achieve anything substantial and decisive.
3) If white cannot achieve anything substantial or decisive than white should not play Qh5+ plans and instead follow a more "classic" fluent developing scheme
4) If black needs not worrying about Qh5+ threats then he stopped Qd1-g4 successfully, got to play his leaver free of charge and is now enjoying a locked centre with prospects on both sides of the board.

Conclusion, if black's "weaknesses" are only visual but not analytically then surely the game is equal and in an equal game the one who has obtained greater knowledge will have the advantage in the opening!

From what i can see so far people "assume" that black is worse because they looked at the initial position with a computer. Most programs will give white (after 6...f5) the greater part of a pawn (0.80 more or less) and therefore people assume white is simply winning.
So far I have looked at this line for probably in-excessive 10 hours and have analyzed numerous lines.
In all lines with out exception i have found that within the first few moves (3-8 moves) the evaluation has changed and strategically it is not clear white has any advantage at all!

In aftereffect it seems that black has in fact stable themes and clear ideas for positional play. I think that if i managed to have a score of 1 draw and 5 wins (two of these wins are against FMs) it is proof enough that black's position has more than it first "visually" seems to have.

That being said it might be the case where further analysis will prove this variation's false conception and/or a clear way for a white advantage will be found - so far black stands!!
  
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Re: French defence, Winawer, 5. a3, 6... f5 Analysis
Reply #2 - 09/29/11 at 14:13:17
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As I indeed fear 8.Qg3 more than 8.Qd1 this is only an extra reason to look at 6...f5. We might call it the Ozols Defence, if he hadn't lost 3 out of 4 games with it.
7.exf6 Nxf6 8.Nf3 O-O 9.Be2 Ne4 looks nice for Black.
More problematic look 7.a4 and 7.Nh3 Qc7 8.Rb1 b6 9.Bd2 keeping Qh5+ in reserve, especially in case Black plays ...Ne7.
No way I would want to play as Black that position after move 15 as given on Shepherd's blog.
  
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Re: French defence, Winawer, 5. a3, 6... f5 Analysis
Reply #1 - 09/29/11 at 13:52:02
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You might look at one of the main lines after Qc7:

6...Qc7 7.Qg4 f5 8.Qh5 (8.Qg3 is supposed to be stronger)
g6 9.Qd1 

where you get the move Qc7 for free compared to one of your main lines (6...f5 7.Qh5 g6 8.Qd1) for inspiration

Typical ideas there are
1) Nf3,dc5,Bb5
2) Nf3,Rb1 and Ng5 and or g4

These ideas should also be reasonable for white if black has not (yet) played Qc7.

In one of your main lines (1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e5 c5 5. a3 Bxc3+ 6. bxc3 f5 7. Qh5+ g6 8. Qd1 Nc6 9. Nf3 Nge7 10. Bh6 Qa5 11. Qd2 Bd7 12. Be2 cxd4 13. cxd4 Qxd2+ 14. Bxd2 h6 15. h4) I don't find 10. Bh6 very convincing (it turns out to just waste a move). 10.dc5 or 10.h4 (perhaps with the idea 11.Ng5 h6 12.Nh3,13.Nh4) look more natural.
  
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John
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C18: French Winawer, 5. a3, 6... f5 Analysis
09/29/11 at 12:19:01
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1. e4 e6
2. d4 d5
3. Nc3 Bb4
4. e5 c5
5. a3 Bxc3
6. bxc3 f5 (to stop Qg4)

I have posted this in another forum and it is currently being analyzed throughout a few pages!!

Moves tried so far:
7. Qh5+
7. Nf3
7. f4

So far despite the willingness of many strong players (including two FMs) the variation still stands!

If you're interested to see more analysis (and i suggest you do before you place a reply!) please see my chess blog:

http://musiquewandchess.blogspot.com/2011/09/french-defence-winawer-5-a3-6-f5.ht...

or at the mentioned forum:

http://njscf.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=amate&action=display&thread=1891
« Last Edit: 10/01/11 at 15:32:24 by Smyslov_Fan »  
Rating, roughly 2200.
I run a Chess Blog called ‘The Unemployed Dragon’ at: http://musiquewandchess.blogspot.com/
I play 1. Nf3 and the Catalan as White and the French and QGD as Black
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