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Normal Topic C-K ..e6+..d5: where to deploy the b8N? (Read 6045 times)
kylemeister
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Re: C-K ..e6+..d5: where to deploy the b8N?
Reply #9 - 10/05/11 at 16:34:20
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Well, there is also the sort of thing where Black avoids an early ...d5.  A couple of games I'm reminded of are Colle-Tartakower and (speaking of the French) Kovacevic-Seirawan.  Another 2005-ish book (by John Cox) would be relevant there.  Is there a downside to having in ...Nc6 so early?  Tartakower didn't seem to think so.  You can think about it ...
  
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HoemberChess
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Re: C-K ..e6+..d5: where to deploy the b8N?
Reply #8 - 10/05/11 at 15:23:19
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Thanks for the replies.
I have played through all games you referred to.
In addition, you have driven my attention to How to Beat 1.d4 by Rizzitano (2005).

Note: Now I know that for me, the question in the topic title doesn't make sense since 1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 c5 3.c3 Nc6 4.Bf4 cxd 5.cxd Qb6 is just the position for the sake of which I had taken up 2..c5.  (4.e3 and this is the Colle-Koltanowski already...)

BTW, I think that a lot of the positions are very French-like, often even with an IQP on Black's side. (I don't really like it, I perform better against IQPs, but what else can I do...? Smiley)
  

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*W 1d4) Torre/Barry/Pirc/Philidor/ early _d5:early c4(QGD/Slav/QGD/etc)
*B) 1e4:e6 [+1_c5 2Nf3 a6]| 1d4:e6 2c4 Bb4+ BID/pseudoNID [+1_Nf6 NID]| 1c4:c5,_Nc6,_e5,_g6| 1Nf3:c5
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Bresando
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Re: C-K ..e6+..d5: where to deploy the b8N?
Reply #7 - 10/05/11 at 08:00:25
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David Rudel (if i'm not wrong it's the same weak amateur which  published "Zuk'em  all" on the colle-zukertort) has recently published a new book based on 9.b4!?(!! acording to him...) instead of 9.e4 (he calls this the "phoenix attack"). The idea is that the pressure on f2 is what prevents white from supporting e4 with Re1, and so white does better to first kick away the bishop and then prepare e4.
His main point is that in this sort of reversed meran white can meet 9...Bd6 10.Bb2 e5 with 11.e4 which he think gives white the better game. I don't know if this idea has much bite but you might want to prepare something against it.
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: C-K ..e6+..d5: where to deploy the b8N?
Reply #6 - 10/05/11 at 04:03:39
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kylemeister wrote on 10/05/11 at 03:21:19:
On 11. Bc2 Rizzitano liked 11...Bb6, whereupon he considered 12. ed, 12. a4, 12. h3 and 12. Kh1.

Thanks; I don't have Rizzitano. In that Kaissiber 3 issue my analysis went 11...Bb6 12.Kh1 Bd7 13.h3 Nh5 14.Nb3 Nf4? (or 14...Bxf2 15.Qxf2 dxe4 16.Nfd2 with an edge) 15.Bxf4 Qxf4 16.exd5 +/- Etchegaray - Estremera, Zaragoza 1992. Maybe other 12th black moves are more precise, but I'd still prefer White. The PC says it is =, but Black's king isn't as secure as White's.
  
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kylemeister
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Re: C-K ..e6+..d5: where to deploy the b8N?
Reply #5 - 10/05/11 at 03:21:19
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On 11. Bc2 Rizzitano liked 11...Bb6, whereupon he considered 12. ed, 12. a4, 12. h3 and 12. Kh1.
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: C-K ..e6+..d5: where to deploy the b8N?
Reply #4 - 10/05/11 at 01:08:05
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Vass wrote on 10/04/11 at 21:31:40:
kylemeister wrote on 10/04/11 at 21:26:51:
Indeed, but as far as I know 10...h6 first came to prominence when Silman played it against Root circa 1990; over the years since it has e.g. been the main move in NCO and ECO and recommended in a repertoire book by Rizzitano, so I think the "deserves attention" mark has probably passed its expiration date ...

Sure. Then we have to put the !-mark to this move...easily..  Wink

I looked at this for an article on the Colle in Kaissiber 3 (1997). 10...h6 was recommended by Robert Reynolds in The Chess Correspondent, Dec. 1986. The Kaissiber article had 10...Bd6 as the main line, but h6 is a serious alternative. The replies 11.h3? and 11.e5? are weak, 11.b4 is possible.

Maybe best: 11.Bc2, when I analyzed 11...Rd8 12.e5 Ng4 13.Nb3 Bb6 14.Bf4 f6 15.Qd3 Ngxe5 16.Qh7+ Kf8 17.Nxe5 fxe5 18.Be3 "with attack (Bücker)". Better seems 11...b6 12.e5 Nd7 (12...Ng4 13.Nb3) 13.Re1 a5 14.Nb3 Ba6 15.Qd1, e.g. 15...Ndxe5 16. Nxc5 bxc5 17.Nxe5 Nxe5 18.Bf4 f6 19.Re3 with a small plus for White.
  
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Vass
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Re: C-K ..e6+..d5: where to deploy the b8N?
Reply #3 - 10/04/11 at 21:31:40
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kylemeister wrote on 10/04/11 at 21:26:51:
Indeed, but as far as I know 10...h6 first came to prominence when Silman played it against Root circa 1990; over the years since it has e.g. been the main move in NCO and ECO and recommended in a repertoire book by Rizzitano, so I think the "deserves attention" mark has probably passed its expiration date ...

Sure. Then we have to put the !-mark to this move...easily..  Wink
  
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kylemeister
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Re: C-K ..e6+..d5: where to deploy the b8N?
Reply #2 - 10/04/11 at 21:26:51
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Indeed, but as far as I know 10...h6 first came to prominence when Silman played it against Root circa 1990; over the years since it has e.g. been the main move in NCO and ECO and recommended in a repertoire book by Rizzitano, so I think the "deserves attention" mark has probably passed its expiration date ...
  
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Vass
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Re: C-K ..e6+..d5: where to deploy the b8N?
Reply #1 - 10/04/11 at 20:52:07
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The Bogoljubow's (who you probably know very well because he can be the one that mentioned this to you) 1926's move (Shulz played it few months earlier btw) 5...Nbd7 constructs a good plan for fighting Colle-Koltanowski system (dxc5 to be met by Nxc5 and so on..). It's not the panacea though. I like the main line with 5...Nc6. What I suggest to you is:

The main line was 10...Bd6 (to prevent e4-e5).. And now some variations:
S.Peric - (our man) T.Kosten (Tarragona, Spain 2007) 0-1 (of course   Wink ) continued 11. h3 Nh5 12. Nb3 Ng3 13. Qc2 dxe4 14. Bxe4 Nxe4 15. Qxe4 Bd6 16. Rd1 and here Tony played 16...e5 (and I prefer 16...Rd8!? just to tease him, maybe)..  Tongue
Another line may be: 11. e5 Ng4 12. Nb3 Bb6 13. Bf4 f6 and so on..
If 11. b4 Bd6 12. Bb2 Ng4 13. h3 (13. g3 Nce5) Nge5 14. Bc2 (maybe the best here) and now 14...Ng6!? (I think this move is not played before..)
11. a3... is best met by 11...a6 and then Ba7 and Nh5 on h2-h3 as in K.Gawehns 2410 - T.Henrich 2445 (Germany, 1998)
And that's it!..
This 5...Nc6 can be played even on 5. 0-0 or 5. Nbd2 (instead of 5.c3) thus transposing to the main line.. It stands good with the Zukertort's 5.b3..., too..  Wink
Of course, white can deviate from the main line with say 7. dxc5... (and early b2-b4 plan). Then you can follow I.Stepanov - G.Airapetian (Tula, Russia 2003) which continues 7...Bxc5 8. b4 Bd6 9. b5 Ne5 10. Nxe5 Bxe5 11. Bb2 O-O and you'll survive..  Smiley
  
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HoemberChess
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C-K ..e6+..d5: where to deploy the b8N?
10/04/11 at 18:30:56
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1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.e3 d5 4.Bd3 c5
(or 1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 c5 3.e3 Nf6 4.Bd3 d5, which is my preferred move-order)
and now 5.c3 is what my opponent (2300+ FM) will probably play at a team match on Sunday.
How to play this position as Black?
(I remember someone suggesting 5..Nbd7 versus the Colle-Koltanowski but I have forgotten the plans.)

And what to do if he simply ignores my 5..c4 threat and castles? (5.0-0)
  

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*W 1d4) Torre/Barry/Pirc/Philidor/ early _d5:early c4(QGD/Slav/QGD/etc)
*B) 1e4:e6 [+1_c5 2Nf3 a6]| 1d4:e6 2c4 Bb4+ BID/pseudoNID [+1_Nf6 NID]| 1c4:c5,_Nc6,_e5,_g6| 1Nf3:c5
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