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Normal Topic Fantasy 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.f3 e6 4.Nc3 Bb4 5.a3 Ba5 (Read 8057 times)
Laramonet
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Re: Fantasy 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.f3 e6 4.Nc3 Bb4 5.a3 Ba5
Reply #9 - 10/29/11 at 09:14:59
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Thanks tp2205,
Sorry I missed it but I agree, c5 must be on the right lines.

Hi Martin C,
   I wasn't convinced by Bg5 either. However, I wanted to find counterplay on the queenside, avoiding kingside pawn moves if at all possible. If c5 can achieve the break up of the centre I think Black will be fine, maybe even better. f6 may be useful later but it could be that the extra saved tempo can be used in taking control of the centre. Pushing his bishop with f6 may even put it on a better square ! I would really like to capture on e5 rather than give White the opportunity of ef.

Many thanks for your replies.
  
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MartinC
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Re: Fantasy 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.f3 e6 4.Nc3 Bb4 5.a3 Ba5
Reply #8 - 10/29/11 at 08:55:37
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Seems very rational yes. Seems like white maybe still OK after Nb5 cd f4 but certainly not better.

Its worth noting that c5 probably is blacks normal plan here, at least initially. The effectiveness of the early f6 was somewhat dependent on white having played some rather strange moves. (especially Bg5 so no time for f4 in response.).
  
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tp2205
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Re: Fantasy 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.f3 e6 4.Nc3 Bb4 5.a3 Ba5
Reply #7 - 10/29/11 at 05:05:23
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Laramonet wrote on 10/28/11 at 20:31:50:
Driving today a realisation dawned. On Bologan's dvd one line is 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.f3 e6 4.Nc3 Bb4 5.Bf4 Ne7 6.Qd2 O-O 7.Nge2 Nd7 8.a3 Ba5 9.e5 c5 10.dc Bc7 11.Nd4 Be5. I don't know if it was this finally connecting somewhere with my game but didn't I miss 10...., c5 ? That is 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.f3 e6 4.Nc3 Bb4 5.a3 Ba5 6.b4 Bc7 7.e5 Ne7 8.Nge2 O-O 9.Bg5 b6 10.Ng3 and now c5. This looks to me like the way to break open the centre and get counterplay rather than wasting tempi with Ba6, giving White the development advantage to make his kingside attack difficult to defend. I'm still resisiting resorting to the computer's help. I want to work this out for myself. Any comments ?


That was my suggestion in reply #4. 
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In any case I would consider the positions after 10...c5 or 10...h6, 11...c5 not bad at all for black. I think white's pawn chain is in trouble. The Knight on g3 is not so well placed.
  
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Laramonet
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Re: Fantasy 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.f3 e6 4.Nc3 Bb4 5.a3 Ba5
Reply #6 - 10/28/11 at 20:31:50
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Driving today a realisation dawned. On Bologan's dvd one line is 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.f3 e6 4.Nc3 Bb4 5.Bf4 Ne7 6.Qd2 O-O 7.Nge2 Nd7 8.a3 Ba5 9.e5 c5 10.dc Bc7 11.Nd4 Be5. I don't know if it was this finally connecting somewhere with my game but didn't I miss 10...., c5 ? That is 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.f3 e6 4.Nc3 Bb4 5.a3 Ba5 6.b4 Bc7 7.e5 Ne7 8.Nge2 O-O 9.Bg5 b6 10.Ng3 and now c5. This looks to me like the way to break open the centre and get counterplay rather than wasting tempi with Ba6, giving White the development advantage to make his kingside attack difficult to defend. I'm still resisiting resorting to the computer's help. I want to work this out for myself. Any comments ?
  
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Laramonet
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Re: Fantasy 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.f3 e6 4.Nc3 Bb4 5.a3 Ba5
Reply #5 - 10/26/11 at 15:23:35
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Hi all, thanks for the replies. Some further moves were 11.Ba6 Na6 12.Qd3 Nb8 13.f4 f6 14.ef gf 15.Bh6 Rf7 16.O-O Qd6 17.Rae1 f5. While having followed some parts of the suggestions, I only did this after b6 / Ba6. This seemed to lose tempi because of Qd3 when white had a growing initiative and f6 probably came too late. Bologan's advice on this line is to play on the queenside, reacting to a White kingside advance by closing it up whatever he tries. Following that, f6 seems contrary to that direction. Perhaps b6 / Nd7 and c5 was better but I would have had to deal with Nb5 / d6. I'll try to come up with some more human analysis before resorting to the computer.
  
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tp2205
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Re: Fantasy 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.f3 e6 4.Nc3 Bb4 5.a3 Ba5
Reply #4 - 10/20/11 at 17:23:21
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Laramonet wrote on 10/19/11 at 21:22:03:
Hi All,
   Does anyone have any experience in this line or know of any games ? I've failed to find anything in MegaBase 2010, ChessLab or Chess Explorer. I've just lost a game in an inter-club league match and didn't feel like I got any counterplay going at all. It continued 6.b4 Bc7 7.e5 Ne7 8. Nge2 0-0 9.Bg5 b6 10.Ng3 Ba6 and I succumbed on the kingside having got no play on the queenside.

How about posting more or all of the game.

In any case I would consider the positions after 10...c5 or 10...h6, 11...c5 not bad at all for black. I think white's pawn chain is in trouble. The Knight on g3 is not so well placed. 

(added a day later, a few more suggestions)
1) I think 7. e5 is not so good, 7.Be3 was preferable.

2) White could (should?) have chosen 8. f4 9.Nf3 with a more Steinitz-like position to keep the center a bit more stable

3) 9...Nd7 and 10...f6 also looks better for Black

4) MartinC's 9...f6 perhaps followed by 10.ef gf 11.Bh6 Rf7 and a quick e5 looks also good

To summarize: If you play any reasonable combination of f6 (prepared by Nd7 or 0-0) or c5 between moves 8-10 you should be fine.
« Last Edit: 10/21/11 at 12:58:38 by tp2205 »  
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MartinC
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Re: Fantasy 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.f3 e6 4.Nc3 Bb4 5.a3 Ba5
Reply #3 - 10/20/11 at 17:15:08
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Not sure about b6/Ba6 as that bishop is rather handy on the c8 <-> f5 diagonal once you've broken with f6 and a likely subsequent e5 follow up. 

Certainly if you let white solidfy his center with f4 then develop with Bd3, Ng3 there's a big attack heading your way. Maybe OK with Qside play if very careful and a5 etc, don't know.

But an f6 break very rational and 9 .. f6 seems well timed and effective. Maybe Nbd7 first, but that does let white go f4 which does solidify his center.

Not that sold on whites Bg5 - doesn't stop f6 so why? - or Nge2 - why ever not Bd3 first? Or f4 maybe.
  
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Re: Fantasy 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.f3 e6 4.Nc3 Bb4 5.a3 Ba5
Reply #2 - 10/20/11 at 17:00:47
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Yeah, I haven't played either side of this variation, but I would think that Black needs to play ...f6 sooner or later.
  
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Re: Fantasy 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.f3 e6 4.Nc3 Bb4 5.a3 Ba5
Reply #1 - 10/20/11 at 16:52:53
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Not sure if you did sth wrong. Your opening play seems perfectly fine to me.

I have no practical experience in this line, but I have seen that when White advances with e5 and then you get opposite-side castling and h4-h5-h6, it is a good idea to throw in the ...f6-break.
  

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Laramonet
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Fantasy 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.f3 e6 4.Nc3 Bb4 5.a3 Ba5
10/19/11 at 21:22:03
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Hi All,
   Does anyone have any experience in this line or know of any games ? I've failed to find anything in MegaBase 2010, ChessLab or Chess Explorer. I've just lost a game in an inter-club league match and didn't feel like I got any counterplay going at all. It continued 6.b4 Bc7 7.e5 Ne7 8. Nge2 0-0 9.Bg5 b6 10.Ng3 Ba6 and I succumbed on the kingside having got no play on the queenside.
  
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