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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C50-C59: Two Knights defense or Italian? (Read 26858 times)
MNb
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Re: C50-C59: Two Knights defense or Italian?
Reply #15 - 10/23/11 at 11:44:51
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downward wrote on 10/22/11 at 18:35:08:
But I want to play Two Knights, not Italian. Is there a way I can force White to transpose, or can he play something different and/or dangerous?

Not really, but you can invite White to transpose and avoid the Italian.

1) 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d4 exd4 4.Nf3 Nc6 is a well known transposition and 3.d3 Nc6 4.Nf3 another one. The most important deviation 4.Nc3 (intending 5.f4) allows Na5 or Bb4. Both are sound.

2) A nice gambit is 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d3 Bc5 4.Nc3 c6 5.f4?! d5 or exf4 and 6...d5. Of course White can play 5.Nf3 or 4.Nf3. The latter is still not an Italian as long as Black doesn't play ...Nc6, but I think 4.Nf3 d6 5.c3 c6 not very interesting.
You can combine both options by adopting 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.Nc3 Bc5 4.Nf3 (4.d3 c6) d6 5.d3 c6. That avoids the symmetrical line.
The notorious Frankenstein-Dracula 3.Nc3 Nxe4 is boring after 4.Qh5 Nd6 5.Qxe5+.
  

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Re: C50-C59: Two Knights defense or Italian?
Reply #14 - 10/23/11 at 10:24:01
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I don't agree that the Max Lange Attack is toothless, White's continuation (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d4 exd4 5.0-0 Bc5 6.e5 d5 7.exf6 dxc4) 8.fxg7 Rg8 9.Bg5 is dangerous and gives White chances of a theoretical advantage.  The traditional line 8.Re1+ Be6 9.Ng5 Qd5 is also quite dangerous, though theoretically Black stands a bit better.

The line 5...Nxe4 6.Re1 d5 7.Bxd5 Qxd5 8.Nc3 Qh5 9.Nxe4 Be6 10.Bg5 (Stefan Buecker's ideas following 10.Neg5 0-0-0 11.Nxe6 fxe6 12.Bg5!? are discussed in a few other threads) 10...h6 is probably unsound.  For instance after 11.Bf6 Qg6 12.Nh4 Qg4 13.Qd3 improves on Emms's 13.Qxg4 and 12...Qh7 had a similar objection (though I don't recall specifically what it was).  Thus Black's best option at move 10 is 10...Bd6 (10...Bb4 11.Nxd4 might give White a small niggle in the resulting ending) when Black is fully equal, though the resulting positions are often quite sterile, e.g. 11.c4 0-0 12.c5 Be5 13.Nxe5 Qxd1 14.Raxd1 Nxe5 15.Rxd4 Nc6 =, or 11.Nxd6+ cxd6 12.Bf4 Qd5 13.c3 Rc8 14.b3 0-0 15.Nxd4 Nxd4 16.Qxd4 Qxd4 17.cxd4 =.  However, White must avoid 11.Bf6? Bxh2+! (one of the key points behind 10...Bd6) 12.Nxh2 Qxd1 when Black wins a pawn and gets the queens off in the process.

I would agree with the general comment that the Two Knights is easier for a young/novice player to get to grips with than 3...Bc5, in view of the various sidelines that White can employ against the latter, and also more likely to lead to open and tactical positions.  Then again, there's also a strong case for players to start off trying out both 3...Bc5 and 3...Nf6.
  
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Re: C50-C59: Two Knights defense or Italian?
Reply #13 - 10/23/11 at 02:42:18
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The computers have made many players afraid of playing gambits, of which the Two Knights Defence is one.

Since we are humans, that should work to the advantage of the gambit player. Without computer assistance, over the board the defender has a difficult task and, certainly below GM level, is unlikely to fare any better than Steinitz did against Tchigorin.

It is hard to prove whether Markovich is right, but I share his intuition that many, if not most, well-trained players have gone through a period of playing the Two Knights Defence for Black. Evidence is fragmentary; we know for example that in the USSR most players were encouraged to worship Tchigorin.  We also know that the famous Leningrad trainer Vladimir Zak taught his students (including Spassky) to play the Two Knights.

If you search the database for games by GMs between say 1930 and 1970 you find these names on the black side of the Two Knights: Fine, Eliskases, Reshevsky, Botvinnik, Smyslov, Bisguier, Spassky, Taimanov, Szabo, Bronstain, Stein, and above all three famous 1 e4 e5 specialists: Keres, Geller and Gligoric, all elite players of their day; they would not have played 3...Nf6 if they did not consider it sound and promising of a good fight with winning chances.

The Two Knights is certainly the most practical choice for club players, since after 3...Bc5 4 b4, or 4 c3 Nf6 5 d4, in order to survive Black has to know at least as much as he needs to know to play the Two Knights Defence, yet with the latter the risk-reward balance is much more favourable to Black.

I certainly encourage my students to play the Two knights rather than 3...Bc5.
  
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Re: C50-C59: Two Knights defense or Italian?
Reply #12 - 10/23/11 at 02:05:32
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 10/22/11 at 23:15:08:
Markovich wrote on 10/22/11 at 20:34:07:
...
I would add, for young players, that playing the Two Knights is an essential part of any good chess education.

There have been plenty of World Champions and World Champion candidates who never played the Two Knights in their repertoire.


Really? Even as juniors? I find I must yield to your extensive knowledge of the youthful repertoires of all the world champions, and candidates.

PS: I did say, for young players. I'll stand by "essential" as to open, gambit-style positions. It was hyperbole to say that the Two Knights itself is essential, though it's close to that. It simply is a crying shame to miss the chance to play into such positions when one also gets good chances, as one does in the Two Knights. I certainly wouldn't have a student who didn't play it.
  

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Re: C50-C59: Two Knights defense or Italian?
Reply #11 - 10/23/11 at 01:17:21
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 10/22/11 at 23:15:08:
Markovich wrote on 10/22/11 at 20:34:07:
...
I would add, for young players, that playing the Two Knights is an essential part of any good chess education.

While I agree with Markovich's specific advice, I disagree with this essentialist argument about the Two Knights. There have been plenty of World Champions and World Champion candidates who never played the Two Knights in their repertoire. Perhaps they didn't receive a "good education", but it was clearly sufficient for their needs.

Actually I think it is the reverse. The two knights you play for fun. The Italian is probably part of any good chess education. (In my experience 'good education' and 'fun' rarely overlap.)
  
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Re: C50-C59: Two Knights defense or Italian?
Reply #10 - 10/23/11 at 01:11:01
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MNb wrote on 10/22/11 at 15:51:03:
Amet, I think you got confused with 4.d4 exd4 5.O-O Nxe4. After 4.Nc3 Nxe4 Black hardly ever has the choice between Qa5 and Qh5.


What is the status of the Qh5 line? I give one line (the one I remember) below.

In the Qg4 line I am wondering what to do about 13. Qd3 with ideas like Qb5 or Rad1. Untangling the king side looks difficult for Black.

In the Qh7 line I am wondering if white has good waiting moves on move 13. Some think like 13.a3 (with the idea Kd7 14.Bd4). The move 13. Qh5 just seems to make Kd7, Rd/e8, Kc8 easier.
  
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Re: C50-C59: Two Knights defense or Italian?
Reply #9 - 10/22/11 at 23:15:08
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Markovich wrote on 10/22/11 at 20:34:07:
...
I would add, for young players, that playing the Two Knights is an essential part of any good chess education.

While I agree with Markovich's specific advice, I disagree with this essentialist argument about the Two Knights. There have been plenty of World Champions and World Champion candidates who never played the Two Knights in their repertoire. Perhaps they didn't receive a "good education", but it was clearly sufficient for their needs.
  
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Re: C50-C59: Two Knights defense or Italian?
Reply #8 - 10/22/11 at 20:34:07
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I agree with what MNb said.  The Two Knights is more ambitious; avoids the Evans, which is a respectable gambit; and offers Black the option of playing either 4...Be7 or 4...Bc5 in case White answers with the quiet 4.d3. 

I would add, for young players, that playing the Two Knights is an essential part of any good chess education.
  

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Re: C50-C59: Two Knights defense or Italian?
Reply #7 - 10/22/11 at 19:40:55
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downward wrote on 10/22/11 at 18:35:08:
I have a question regarding the difference between 3.- Bc5 and 3.-Nf6 after White plays the Bishop Opening.
Marin in his Beating the Open Games doesn't propose anything against the Bishop Opening 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 as his repertoire choices against other openings (KG, Italian, Vienna) will directly transpose after 2.Bc4 Nc6 anyway.
But I want to play Two Knights, not Italian. Is there a way I can force White to transpose, or can he play something different and/or dangerous?

1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 will almost always either transpose into a Two Knights (if White eventually plays Nf3) or some Vienna or King's Gambit Declined (if White eventually plays Nc3 and f4). Hopefully you already have something prepared against those (not that they're very scary in any case).
  
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Re: C50-C59: Two Knights defense or Italian?
Reply #6 - 10/22/11 at 18:35:08
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I have a question regarding the difference between 3.- Bc5 and 3.-Nf6 after White plays the Bishop Opening.
Marin in his Beating the Open Games doesn't propose anything against the Bishop Opening 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 as his repertoire choices against other openings (KG, Italian, Vienna) will directly transpose after 2.Bc4 Nc6 anyway.
But I want to play Two Knights, not Italian. Is there a way I can force White to transpose, or can he play something different and/or dangerous?
  
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Re: C50-C59: Two Knights defense or Italian?
Reply #5 - 10/22/11 at 15:51:03
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Amet, I think you got confused with 4.d4 exd4 5.O-O Nxe4. After 4.Nc3 Nxe4 Black hardly ever has the choice between Qa5 and Qh5.

TN wrote on 10/22/11 at 05:22:10:
b) 4.d3 - 4...Bc5 is the Modern Italian but 4...Be7 is pretty similar, albeit slightly quieter.

I disagree. The lines with an early ...d5 are pretty sharp. White can avoid them. Then often a plan with ...f5 sharpens the game up.

TN wrote on 10/22/11 at 05:22:10:
d) 4.d4 ed4 5.e5 - all of the three main moves equalise but I like 5...d5 6.Bb5 Ne4 7.Nd4 Bd7 best. It's equal, but either side can easily fall into trouble if they don't really understand the position.

I lost my fear for 5.e5 when I took up the gambit move 7...Bc5.
In general 3...Bc5 is more about avoiding all the dangers and equalizing first, while 3...Nf6 is about taking over the initiative, including the risks involved. For this reason I prefer 3...Nf6, especially because in practice it isn't easy at all to stay safe against the Evans Gambit. There is a reason Marin shows a healthy respect for it.
  

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Re: C50-C59: Two Knights defense or Italian?
Reply #4 - 10/22/11 at 14:54:40
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TN wrote on 10/22/11 at 05:22:10:
Pingudon wrote on 10/22/11 at 03:38:52:
In the line 1.e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 I am tying to decide between 3...Nf6 or 3...Bc5. Which one do you prefer or which one is better? Does black have better chance in any of them?


They are both equally good. Gustafsson recommends 3...Bc5 in his DVD.

Here's a quick summary of the lines:

3...Bc5:
a) Modern Italian - theoretically the best option, but equal with best play. It's very important to understand both sides' plans in this variation or else you can be outplayed quite easily, even in an equal position. This applies even more in this variation than in the others.
b) 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 - harmless, but only if you are prepared.
c) 4.0-0 Nf6 5.d4 - dangerous, but only if Black is unprepared. However 4...d6 is good and avoids the gambit.
d) Canal System - Completely harmless. It's not easy to get good winning chances at GM level but don't worry about that. You can play 5...h6 if you are really desperate to avoid it.
e) Evans Gambit - It's very important to be prepared. 5...Ba5 is the main line, 5...Bd6 isn't trustworthy at all, and my favourite (and Gustafsson's) 5...Be7 might be the best of the lot, albeit requiring more preparation.

3...Nf6:
a) 4.Ng5 d5 5.ed5 Na5 6.Bb5 c6 etc - This is the main line but Black scores pretty well in practice and I don't see why he should be worse objectively either.
b) 4.d3 - 4...Bc5 is the Modern Italian but 4...Be7 is pretty similar, albeit slightly quieter.
c) Max Lange Attack - almost toothless but it's important to be well prepared.
d) 4.d4 ed4 5.e5 - all of the three main moves equalise but I like 5...d5 6.Bb5 Ne4 7.Nd4 Bd7 best. It's equal, but either side can easily fall into trouble if they don't really understand the position.
e) 4.Nc3 Ne4 - need I say more?


I prefer 3..Nf6 and in your line d) i like most the move 5...Ng4! Don't give White what he wants! Bit OK, this line is also objectively great.

Line e) 4...Nxe4 i still cannot remember where i saw that ...Qa5 is better than ...Qh5 as it equalises without allowing some nasty tricks. Does anyone remember?

After 3...Bc5 i don't like the "slow" variations. I like my B on e7 better then in fact. While being in the Army these days i found the necessary time to study those positions in detail after many many years!
  
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Re: C50-C59: Two Knights defense or Italian?
Reply #3 - 10/22/11 at 06:37:07
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I prefer Nf6 mostly because I prefer Be7 or g6,Bg7 setups against the modern 4.d3. (I simply don't get it how to properly use the bishop on c5 in these positions.) A lesser reason is that I don't like to play against the Evans gambit.  Finally, after 4.Ng5 d5 5.ed5 I think that except for the usual Na5, both b5 and Nd4 are relatively unexplored and quite interesting. Whether they are still considered correct I don't know.
  
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Re: C50-C59: Two Knights defense or Italian?
Reply #2 - 10/22/11 at 05:22:10
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Pingudon wrote on 10/22/11 at 03:38:52:
In the line 1.e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 I am tying to decide between 3...Nf6 or 3...Bc5. Which one do you prefer or which one is better? Does black have better chance in any of them?


They are both equally good. Gustafsson recommends 3...Bc5 in his DVD.

Here's a quick summary of the lines:

3...Bc5:
a) Modern Italian - theoretically the best option, but equal with best play. It's very important to understand both sides' plans in this variation or else you can be outplayed quite easily, even in an equal position. This applies even more in this variation than in the others.
b) 4.c3 Nf6 5.d4 - harmless, but only if you are prepared.
c) 4.0-0 Nf6 5.d4 - dangerous, but only if Black is unprepared. However 4...d6 is good and avoids the gambit.
d) Canal System - Completely harmless. It's not easy to get good winning chances at GM level but don't worry about that. You can play 5...h6 if you are really desperate to avoid it.
e) Evans Gambit - It's very important to be prepared. 5...Ba5 is the main line, 5...Bd6 isn't trustworthy at all, and my favourite (and Gustafsson's) 5...Be7 might be the best of the lot, albeit requiring more preparation.

3...Nf6:
a) 4.Ng5 d5 5.ed5 Na5 6.Bb5 c6 etc - This is the main line but Black scores pretty well in practice and I don't see why he should be worse objectively either.
b) 4.d3 - 4...Bc5 is the Modern Italian but 4...Be7 is pretty similar, albeit slightly quieter.
c) Max Lange Attack - almost toothless but it's important to be well prepared.
d) 4.d4 ed4 5.e5 - all of the three main moves equalise but I like 5...d5 6.Bb5 Ne4 7.Nd4 Bd7 best. It's equal, but either side can easily fall into trouble if they don't really understand the position.
e) 4.Nc3 Ne4 - need I say more?
  

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Re: C50-C59: Two Knights defense or Italian?
Reply #1 - 10/22/11 at 04:10:13
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The original title of the thread was "Two Knights defense, italian or Evans Gambit (sic)".

I added the ECO codes and dropped "Evans Gambit" because that is part of the Italian game and not Black's choice once he plays 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5. I didn't change anything in the body of the text.
  
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