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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) A "new" variation against the Short system. (Read 15022 times)
Vass
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Re: A "new" variation against the Short system.
Reply #18 - 09/26/12 at 13:33:55
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Browsing in between some old threads I somehow got interested in it. Is it playable for black?
After 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 Bf5 4.Nf3 Bg4!? I think the best continuation for white is to play like nothing happened, i.e. 5.Be2 e6 6.0-0
And here Black has various moves:
6...Ne7 7.Nbd2 Nd7 (or 6....Nd7 7.Nbd2 Ne7) and now the check move 8.h3!? (What are you goin' to do, buddy?) 8...Bxf3 or 8...Bh5

Let's see how the masters play it:





6....c5 is obviously premature because of 7.c4!

The last game played in this variation is:



Obviously too many mistakes here, but 7.c4 is good nevertheless.

And 6...Bxf3!? - the main idea for black?! 7.Bxf3 looking at the stonewall  Grin 7...Ne7 (7...c5 is well met by 8.c4!... in this case too.)

Zapata found a strange plan (with 8.b3...) here and won:



Strange game, indeed!.. The brave white king...and all this!
But I like 8.Nd2 most.
Just a game I've found:



Of course, black can improve over this last one, too.. But still..  Wink

So, is it playable?  Roll Eyes
  
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Bogojump
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Re: A "new" variation against the Short system.
Reply #17 - 10/27/11 at 04:44:50
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Markovich wrote on 10/26/11 at 00:44:01:
GMTonyKosten wrote on 10/25/11 at 18:03:00:
Bogojump wrote on 10/22/11 at 23:51:07:
The strategic point is that the knights is better than the bishops in closed positions like this.

I very much doubt that is true, White has more space and his bishops will be strong sooner or later.

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chk
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Re: A "new" variation against the Short system.
Reply #16 - 10/26/11 at 08:42:32
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 10/25/11 at 18:03:00:
Bogojump wrote on 10/22/11 at 23:51:07:
The strategic point is that the knights is better than the bishops in closed positions like this.

I very much doubt that is true, White has more space and his bishops will be strong sooner or later.


Yes I thought of that as well. Also, in cramped positions Knights are not necessarily better than Bishops, all pieces may suffer from lack of space..
  

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Markovich
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Re: A "new" variation against the Short system.
Reply #15 - 10/26/11 at 00:44:01
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 10/25/11 at 18:03:00:
Bogojump wrote on 10/22/11 at 23:51:07:
The strategic point is that the knights is better than the bishops in closed positions like this.

I very much doubt that is true, White has more space and his bishops will be strong sooner or later.

@Bogojump: please get rid of the advert before I have to ban you! Wink


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GMTonyKosten
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Re: A "new" variation against the Short system.
Reply #14 - 10/25/11 at 18:03:00
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Bogojump wrote on 10/22/11 at 23:51:07:
The strategic point is that the knights is better than the bishops in closed positions like this.

I very much doubt that is true, White has more space and his bishops will be strong sooner or later.

@Bogojump: please get rid of the advert before I have to ban you! Wink
  
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Re: A "new" variation against the Short system.
Reply #13 - 10/25/11 at 07:48:43
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In fact I've never been quite sure what white should do in the Short system if given tempi while waiting for black to go c5

Obviously there's Nf3, Be2 and 0-0. The modern trend of leaving out c3 and playing Be3 and N1d2 is powerful as well. This has the added advantage that after Black plays c5 and White plays c4, that the Rook from a1 can join in by going to c1.

I'd agree that eventually you can run out of developing moves. It's possible to prevent c5 for ever, by playing c3 and b4. The one game where I tried this ended in a draw because the pawn chains completely closed the position and little activity was possible.

Bg4 has been popular in the 3.. c5 systems. The game between Gawain Jones and Susan Lalic in the 2011 British at Sheffield is worth reviewing. Gawain was content to allow Bg4, but played for an advantage by taking on c5 and then holding the pawn with b4. Black was able to capture the White e5 pawn, but it left an unbalanced position.
  
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chk
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Re: A "new" variation against the Short system.
Reply #12 - 10/24/11 at 10:20:47
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I play the Short system when White and also have some limited experience with the Black side as well. imo MartinC is hitting at the heart of the problem.

White many times is aiming at a quick c4, which is one good way to take advantage of his/her lead in development. I even once started an OTB game with 1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 c5 4. c3(?!) Nc6 5. Nf3 Bg4 6. Be2 e6 7. h3?, lost a pawn, then played the position in Milner-Barry style (a French gambit) => i.e. turned the pawn loss into a pawn sac! and got a very good game.

So I think you should not underestimate White's lead in development, maybe your opponents have not reacted vigorously yet..
« Last Edit: 10/25/11 at 08:25:07 by chk »  

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MartinC
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Re: A "new" variation against the Short system.
Reply #11 - 10/23/11 at 16:45:57
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No, its not trivial normally but its a lot more serious here. You've used two useful development tempi to hurt your chances after a c5/c4 pair. So you certainly won't be playing a quick c5.

The real question is perhaps whether white can do anything concretely bad while you're organising or if just has to be content with the bishops and space. (quite enough for contentment really.).

I wouldn't be surprised if something concrete was possible after 5.. Bxf3, but likely harder if you delay that a bit. In fact I've never been quite sure what white should do in the Short system if given tempi while waiting for black to go c5 Smiley
(I'm sure there's something!)
  
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Re: A "new" variation against the Short system.
Reply #10 - 10/23/11 at 12:31:07
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MartinC wrote on 10/23/11 at 11:48:18:
The problem with Bg4 this early is that white retains the option of meeting c5 with c4. And you'd much rather have your bishop back then Smiley Bg4 isn't something white is going to prevent!

And playing entirely without c5 isn't at all tempting.



"The problem" with white playing c4 after blacks c5 is still there in the Short system proper. After all I dont see it much worse to have the bishop on g4 in that case copmpared to having it on f5. The tricky thing for black is to play c5 in the right moment. So it is not about playing this system without the c5 strike enitirely. A good thing is that if black can be better developed on the kingside he has better chances escaping heavy backfire on white´s counterstrike c4.

So if we can develop the knight on g8 in a "good" way it increases blacks chances to get in c5 with less trouble.
  

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  where the path back out is only broad enough for one of you." (((Mikhail Tal)))
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MartinC
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Re: A "new" variation against the Short system.
Reply #9 - 10/23/11 at 11:48:18
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Well principally because I don't like the Caro Wink

More concretely I really do think that Bg4 is too early here. Yes it becomes a very real theme if you get a c5 vs c3 structure.

ie looking in Karpov's Batsford book on the Caro advance, you see lines like this apparently being well tested by strong players:
4 Nf3 e6 5 Be2 c5 6 o-o Nc6 7 c3 Bg4 and 7 .. cd 8 cd Ne7 ^ 9 .. Bg4. Although even here, black often seems to try Bg6 instead (also freeing up f5 of course.).

The problem with Bg4 this early is that white retains the option of meeting c5 with c4. And you'd much rather have your bishop back then Smiley Bg4 isn't something white is going to prevent!

And playing entirely without c5 isn't at all tempting.

There are also mild irritants cf white going something like 4 Be3 or 4 Nd2 - quite popular now for various other reasons but they do certainly stop Bg4....
  
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Bogojump
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Re: A "new" variation against the Short system.
Reply #8 - 10/23/11 at 10:53:27
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sibMartinC wrote on 10/23/11 at 10:33:22:
5 Be2 Bxf3 is just very generous to white isn't it? If you wait a few moves he'll almost certainly go h3 to provoke it. Surely not worth a whole tempo to avoid Nbd2 x f3 instead.


Thats a possibility of course. Another point behind putting the bishop on g4 (except the strategic point to exchange it for whites knight) is that blacks knight on g8 has a somewhat easier way to be developed compared to the position with the bishop on f5. The kngiht on g8 can be developed through Ng8-e7-f5. (Of course Black can also play Nh6 Bxh6 gxh6 Bg7 f6 try to undermine whites center like in the french defense also).

Sure this system loses a tempi but the position is closed and you get a different solid position on the board that is playable and your knight on g8 gets a little more happy after all. So...why not give it a try ?
  

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  where the path back out is only broad enough for one of you." (((Mikhail Tal)))
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Re: A "new" variation against the Short system.
Reply #7 - 10/23/11 at 10:33:22
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5 Be2 Bxf3 is just very generous to white isn't it? If you wait a few moves he'll almost certainly go h3 to provoke it. Surely not worth a whole tempo to avoid Nbd2 x f3 instead.

Especially as whites bishop is entirely content on f3. Black isn't going to get away with leaving that pawn on c6 for ever. Certainly if you don't your b8 knight is a pretty awful piece Smiley
  
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Re: A "new" variation against the Short system.
Reply #6 - 10/23/11 at 03:16:51
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How about 5.h3? If 5...Bxf3, 6.Qxf3 and the bishop takes up more useful employment on d3 (as opposed to the bishop being on the f3-square).

If 5...Bh5, 6.e6!? might be a concern.
  
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Re: A "new" variation against the Short system.
Reply #5 - 10/23/11 at 02:54:14
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If you want to play 4...Bg4, why not come up with a better waiting move than 3...Bf5?  Like 3...h6 or 3...a6; I'll bet you'll get away with them.
  
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Bogojump
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Re: A "new" variation against the Short system.
Reply #4 - 10/23/11 at 00:26:43
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downward wrote on 10/23/11 at 00:02:29:
But white can also play 5.Nbd2, and after later Bxf3 take back with the knight and put the bishop on d3 with a pleasant game in my opinion.


Well in that case I would not capture on f3 but instead wait till the last moment to do so. I could also let white play h3-g4 and chase my bishop. Create weaknesses on  his kingside and go to g6 with my bishop. The point is not to help white moving his knight on d2. And in that position I end up with a good bishop on g6.
  

"You must lead your opponent into a deep, dark forest, where 2 + 2 = 5 and
  where the path back out is only broad enough for one of you." (((Mikhail Tal)))
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