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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth (Read 45021 times)
Master Om
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #106 - 08/22/13 at 16:49:01
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Vass wrote on 08/22/13 at 09:34:15:
I won't argue with such specialists in engines..  Roll Eyes
All I want to say here is that the examples were from year 2011 and the main analysis engine used is dated 180813.
Nice to see such progress in the last Stockfish, btw!  Wink



The 2011 positions u posted are still not found by many engines till now. Only by few whose parameter can be changed find it.
  
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Vass
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #105 - 08/22/13 at 09:34:15
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I won't argue with such specialists in engines..  Roll Eyes
All I want to say here is that the examples were from year 2011 and the main analysis engine used is dated 180813.
Nice to see such progress in the last Stockfish, btw!  Wink
  
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Master Om
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #104 - 08/21/13 at 13:12:43
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TN wrote on 08/20/13 at 12:05:28:
sloughter, chandrashekharkovi, Master Om, ?. Name who comes next in the pattern.


What do you mean by pattern ?
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #103 - 08/20/13 at 12:32:32
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Lost Highway. (No, he was a bit different! ...)
  
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TN
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #102 - 08/20/13 at 12:05:28
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sloughter, chandrashekharkovi, Master Om, ?. Name who comes next in the pattern.
  

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Master Om
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #101 - 08/20/13 at 03:06:40
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Markovich wrote on 08/19/13 at 23:31:31:
Once again, these are fairly straightforward moves for a human, are they not?



Provided the Human understands how make a king side attack!! Cheesy
  
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Bibs
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #100 - 08/20/13 at 00:22:55
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Markovich wrote on 08/19/13 at 23:31:31:
Once again, these are fairly straightforward moves for a human, are they not?


Blindingly obvious, yes. I fail to see a point being made here.
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #99 - 08/19/13 at 23:31:31
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Once again, these are fairly straightforward moves for a human, are they not?
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
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Master Om
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #98 - 08/19/13 at 21:13:51
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tony37 wrote on 07/31/13 at 20:08:50:
Vass wrote on 11/15/11 at 11:13:44:
Engines good at tactics.. Really?

an example from one of my correspondence games:

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Houdini (1.5) evaluates this as completely equal giving 1.Ndf3 at depth 23
yet, black is totally lost after 1.Bxh7+! Kxh7 2.Qh5+ Kg8 3.Qxh4 Nxe5 4.fxe5 Be7 5.Rf6!! (what a wonderful move)


Very Nice Position!!. I couldnot produce everytime though as smp analysis are not always reproducible.
But New Stockfish Dev versions are good.

New game
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Analysis by Stockfish 180813 64 SSE4.2:

16.Bxh7+ Kxh7 17.Qh5+ Kg8 18.Qxh4 Nxe5 19.fxe5 Be7 20.Rf6 Rxc2 21.Nf3 Re8 22.g6 fxg6 23.Ng5 Bxf6 24.Qh7+ Kf8 25.Rf1 Qc7 26.exf6 Qxh2+ 27.Qxh2 Rxh2 28.Kxh2 Ba6 29.fxg7+ Kg8 30.Rf6 Re7 31.Nxe6 Rf7 32.Rxf7 Kxf7 33.Kg3 Bc8 34.Nc7 Kxg7 35.Kf4 Bf5 36.Nxd5 Kf7 37.Ke5
+-  (3.55)    Depth: 28/55   00:02:38  296mN
(Prakash, Bhubaneswar 20.08.2013)


I tried again with another of my parameters. I found it again.

New game
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Analysis by Stockfish 180813 64 SSE4.2:

16.Bxh7+ Kxh7 17.Qh5+ Kg8 18.Qxh4 Nxe5 19.fxe5 Be7 20.Rf6 Rxc2 21.Raf1 Rxd2 22.g6 fxg6 23.Rxf8+ Qxf8 24.Rxf8+ Bxf8 25.Bc3 Rc2 26.Bb4 Bxb4 27.axb4 Kf7 28.Qf4+ Ke7 29.Qg4 Kf7 30.Qf3+ Ke8 31.Qd3 Rc1+ 32.Kf2 Kf7 33.Qf3+ Ke8
+/-  (1.43 ++)    Depth: 30/68   00:04:40  597mN
(Prakash, Bhubaneswar 20.08.2013)

I found My favorite engine Spark finds it fastest. only 0.17 secs.
New game
2rq1rk1/pb1n1ppp/1p1bp3/3pN1P1/3P1P1n/PP1B4/1BPNQ2P/R4RK1 w - - 0 1

Analysis by Spark-1.0-win64-mp-corei:

16.Bxh7+ Kxh7 17.Qh5+ Kg8 18.Qxh4 Rxc2 19.Rf3 f5 20.Nxd7 Qxd7 21.g6 Re8 22.Rh3 Kf8 23.Bc3 Ba6 24.Re1 e5 25.fxe5 Qe6 26.Rg3 Bxa3
+-  (1.83 --)    Depth: 18/39   00:00:17  99053kN
(Prakash, Bhubaneswar 20.08.2013)



Note none is running on default parameters and only on a laptop consisting slow intel 3 cores. May be on Big hardwares it will be faster.

  
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Master Om
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #97 - 08/19/13 at 20:23:13
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Vass wrote on 12/19/11 at 09:24:10:
Another position which is very, very difficult to solve by the leading chess engines:
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The obvious 1....Rxh2!! with the Ra8-f8-f4 & Qh4-h6 idea is not too far from the human chess mind. Not too many moves for a chess engine to count, in fact. And yet, they can't see the best move here.  Roll Eyes


What engines cant see ? You must have used a crap engine.

New game
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Analysis by Spark-1.0-win64-mp-corei:

1...Rxh2+ 2.Bxh2 Qh4 3.Qg1 Rf8 4.f4 exf4 5.Rd1 Ba4 6.Rd2 Bxb3 7.Bxb3 f3 8.gxf3 Be5 9.Bd1 Rf6 10.b3 gxh2 11.Qe3 Bg3 12.Rg2 Rh6 13.Qc3 Be5 14.Qd2 Bf4 15.Qc3
-+  (-11.54)    Depth: 26/56   00:06:01  1733mN
(Prakash, Bhubaneswar 20.08.2013)

Still I feel White can defend Rxh2!?
  
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Master Om
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #96 - 08/19/13 at 19:36:38
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Vass wrote on 11/03/11 at 14:09:02:
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 11/03/11 at 13:41:46:
Thx, Vass! I'm amazed that the engines can't see that plan. But then, I've found that even now, Roman Dzindzichasvili's old (1990s) method of using pawn storms to crush engines still works in correspondence.

You're welcome!..  Cool
Amazingly, even in the positions that are highly tactical the engines can't do without the correspondent player. At least, when a strategy is needed.. Look at this example:
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This one is from a correspondent chess game, too.. Every correspondent player will try to analyze the winning move 1.Ncxe5!! first.. Try some Houdini's or Rybka's!.. They can see it in 27-depth  Shocked, at least.. While the human strategy is simple: sac the knight for two pawns (Kh8-h7 is a must), exchange the c-file rooks (Rc1xc8, Rfxc8 is compulsory, too), then move the queen along f3-g4-f5 route and...you can help yourself with some engines if you're lazy..  Wink
The pawn storm is coming..  Grin


Again with the current hardwares you dont even need a human's strategy most of the time in middle games. Before An intelligent corr player first checks his pet program suitable in those positions first.

New game
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Analysis by Stockfish 180813 64 SSE4.2:

29.Ncxe5 dxe5 30.Nxe5 Kh7 31.Rxc8 Rxc8 32.Qf3 Bf6 33.Qh5 Bxe5 34.Qxe5 Rc2 35.Qf5+ g6 36.Qxf4 Qg7 37.Rc1 Rc3 38.Rxc3 Nxc3 39.Qf3 Nb1 40.Bc1 Nxb4 41.Bxb5
+-  (2.12 ++)    Depth: 30/48   00:03:26  429mN
(Prakash, Bhubaneswar 20.08.2013)
  
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Master Om
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #95 - 08/19/13 at 19:27:06
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 11/03/11 at 13:41:46:
Thx, Vass! I'm amazed that the engines can't see that plan. But then, I've found that even now, Roman Dzindzichasvili's old (1990s) method of using pawn storms to crush engines still works in correspondence.


Symslov fan , Please see my response to Vass.
  
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Master Om
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #94 - 08/19/13 at 19:24:18
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Vass wrote on 11/03/11 at 12:01:04:
As correspondence chess players know...the engines are far from perfection. One may look at this position with Houdini, Rybka or whatever and never find the win for black (position taken from a correspondence chess game):
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*

Then try to think yourself, analyze a bit...and you'll see:
1... g3! 2. h3 Bxh3! 3. gxh3 g2 4. Rfc1 Qh4-+  Cool
They use to to say correspondence chess is dead. Yes, it's dead...when relying only on machines.  Wink



First of all there are many chess programs. All have there special characteristics as the way are programmed. So before saying engines don't find is not the appropiate way of showing a engines weakness. Programs are only tools. Its the user deficiency of knowledge of how to use them and novices throw all the fault on programs.
Here is mine.

New game
r5rk/1ppb1p1p/1n1p1q2/3Pb3/1PPNPpp1/3Q1P2/2B1N1PP/1R3RK1 b - - 0 1

New game
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Analysis by Stockfish 180813 64 SSE4.2:

1...g3 2.h3 Bxh3 3.gxh3 g2 4.Rfd1 Qh4 5.Nf5 Qxh3 6.Kf2 g1B+ 7.Rxg1 Qh2+ 8.Ke1 Rxg1+ 9.Nxg1 Qxg1+ 10.Qf1 Bc3+ 11.Ke2 Qh2+ 12.Qf2 Qxf2+ 13.Kxf2 Ra2 14.Rc1 Bxb4 15.Kg1 Ba3 16.Bb3 Bc5+ 17.Kh1 Rf2 18.Rc3 Nd7 19.Nh4 Ne5 20.Rc2 Rxc2 21.Bxc2 Nxc4 22.Nf5 Kg8 23.Kg2 b5 24.Bd3 h5
-+  (-2.98 --)    Depth: 28/54   00:01:14  179mN
(Prakash, Bhubaneswar 20.08.2013)


It took only 30 secs to find Black is winning!!.

Its your inefficiency that you dont know what to use where. Its not programs fault!!.
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #93 - 08/19/13 at 19:04:53
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Markovich wrote on 10/30/11 at 06:46:21:
Ferit Tuncer wrote on 10/28/11 at 11:01:42:
@fling,

I understand what you mean. But i expect most presice results from most competitive engine. Maybe i am wrong. But i am not engine specialist, and don't know algorithms.

That's not all you don't know. These engines simply are not a path to Chess Truth, and it's both amusing and a little annoying that anyone would come here with the idea that they are. I suggest that you take up correspondence chess, and after a couple of years, I can assure you that your regard for your pet engines will be very much diminished.


This is partially true. Chess programs are necessary Evil. Humans are good in strategic planning on certain positions an chess programs are dynamicaly and tactically strong. You just cant avoid them. These use of programs will not diminish. I have been playing freestyle and correspondence chess since 5 years and I find them helpful.
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #92 - 07/31/13 at 21:35:41
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well, it does see Rf6 when you take the position right before that move, but not when it's 9 half-moves away as in the starting position
once it sees Rf6, Houdini is going crazy about Bxh7+, and my opponent (about 2200) resigned after I played that move, so it was a win in 16 starting with 1.b3!
  
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