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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth (Read 47543 times)
Dink Heckler
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #46 - 01/04/12 at 16:29:22
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I don't really understand the thrust of this thread; so computers aren't omniscient? Who knew?
  

'Am I any good at tactics?'
'Computer says No!'
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Master Om
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #45 - 01/04/12 at 16:26:55
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Vass wrote on 12/28/11 at 14:32:29:
Let's make an experiment! Put your favourite engine to a test with this position:
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*
This is a variation of a known position which leads to = after 1. Ba4!! But, what your favourite engine would say?!  Undecided
Edit: FEN 3B4/1r2p3/r2p1p2/bkp1P1p1/1p1P1PPp/p1P4P/PP1K4/3B4 w - - 0 1



First of all one should know what engine to use where. So here my fav engine says this.

New game
3B4/1r2p3/r2p1p2/bkp1P1p1/1p1P1PPp/p1P4P/PP1K4/3B4 w - - 0 1

Analysis by Chiron 1.1 64bit LP:

1.c4+ Kxc4 2.Be2+ Kxd4 3.Bxa6 axb2 4.Kc2 Ra7 5.Bxa5 Rxa6 6.exf6 exf6
  -+  (-7.36)   Depth: 7/20   00:00:00  15kN
1.c4+ Kxc4 2.Be2+ Kxd4 3.Bxa6 axb2 4.Kc2 Ra7 5.Bxa5 Rxa6 6.exf6 exf6
  -+  (-7.36)   Depth: 8/24   00:00:00  37kN
1.c4+ Kxc4 2.Be2+ Kxd4 3.Bxa6 axb2 4.Kc2 Ra7 5.Bxa5 Rxa6 6.exf6 exf6
  -+  (-7.36)   Depth: 9/24   00:00:00  64kN
1.c4+ Kxc4 2.b3+ Kxd4 3.exf6 Bxd8 4.f7
  -+  (-7.19 ++)   Depth: 10/26   00:00:00  149kN
1.c4+ Kxc4 2.b3+ Kxd4 3.exf6 Bxd8 4.f7
  -+  (-7.02 ++)   Depth: 10/26   00:00:00  152kN
1.c4+ Kxc4 2.b3+ Kxd4 3.exf6 Bxd8 4.f7
  -+  (-6.68 ++)   Depth: 10/26   00:00:00  157kN
1.c4+ Kxc4 2.b3+ Kxd4 3.exf6 Ra8 4.Bxe7 gxf4 5.g5 d5 6.Kc2 Bd8 7.Bd6
  -+  (-6.94)   Depth: 10/26   00:00:00  174kN
1.c4+ Kxc4 2.b3+ Kxd4 3.exf6 Ra8 4.Bxe7 gxf4 5.g5 d5
  -+  (-5.26 ++)   Depth: 10/26   00:00:00  227kN
1.c4+ Kxc4 2.b3+ Kxd4 3.exf6 Ra8 4.Bxe7 gxf4 5.g5 d5
  -+  (-4.05 ++)   Depth: 10/26   00:00:00  227kN
1.c4+ Kxc4 2.b3+ Kxd4 3.exf6 Ra8 4.Bxe7 gxf4 5.g5 d5
  -+  (-1.50 ++)   Depth: 10/26   00:00:00  227kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Kxd8 6.f5 Ra8 7.Kc2 Bb6 8.Kb1
  =  (0.00)   Depth: 10/26   00:00:00  228kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Kxd8 6.f5 Ra8 7.Kc2 Bb6 8.Kb1 Bc7
  =  (0.00)   Depth: 11/26   00:00:00  229kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Kxd8 6.f5 Ra8 7.Kc2 Bb6 8.Kb1 Bc7 9.Kc2
  =  (0.00)   Depth: 12/30   00:00:00  235kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Kxd8 6.f5 Ra8 7.Kc2 Bb6 8.Kb1 Bc7 9.Kc2 Bb8
  =  (0.00)   Depth: 13/30   00:00:00  242kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Kxd8 6.f5 Ra8 7.Kc2 Bb6 8.Kb1 Bc7 9.Kc2 Bb8 10.Kb1
  =  (0.00)   Depth: 14/32   00:00:00  256kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Kxd8 6.f5 Ra8 7.Kc2 Bb6 8.Kb1 Bc7 9.Kc2 Bb8 10.Kb1 Bc7
  =  (0.00)   Depth: 15/32   00:00:00  275kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Kxd8 6.f5 Ra8 7.Kc2 Bb6 8.Kb1 Bc7 9.Kc2 Bb8 10.Kb1 Bc7
  =  (0.00)   Depth: 16/32   00:00:00  306kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Kxd8 6.f5 Ra8 7.Kc2 Bb6 8.Kb1 Bc7 9.Kc2 Bb8 10.Kb1 Bc7
  =  (0.00)   Depth: 17/36   00:00:00  353kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Kxd8 6.f5 Ra8 7.Kc2 Bb6 8.Kb1 Bc7 9.Kc2 Bb8 10.Kb1 Bc7
  =  (0.00)   Depth: 18/36   00:00:00  426kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Kxd8 6.f5 Ra8 7.Kc2 Bb6 8.Kb1 Bc7 9.Kc2 Bb8 10.Kb1 Bc7
  =  (0.00)   Depth: 19/36   00:00:00  522kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Kxd8 6.f5 Ra8 7.Kc2 Bb6 8.Kb1 Bc7 9.Kc2 Bb8 10.Kb1 Bc7
  =  (0.00)   Depth: 20/39   00:00:00  712kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Kxd8 6.f5 Ra8 7.Kc2 Bb6 8.Kb1 Bc7 9.Kc2 Bb8 10.Kb1 Bc7
  =  (0.00)   Depth: 21/39   00:00:00  963kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Kxd8 6.f5 Ra8 7.Kc2 Bb6 8.Kb1 Bc7 9.Kc2 Bb8 10.Kb1 Bc7
  =  (0.00)   Depth: 22/39   00:00:02  8685kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Kxd8 6.f5 Ra8 7.Kc2 Bb6 8.Kb1 Bc7 9.Kc2 Bb8 10.Kb1 Bc7
  =  (0.00)   Depth: 23/41   00:00:03  10794kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Kxd8 6.f5 Ra8 7.Kc2 Bb6 8.Kb1 Bc7 9.Kc2 Bb8 10.Kb1 Bc7
  =  (0.00)   Depth: 24/44   00:00:04  17199kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Kxd8 6.f5 Ra8 7.Kc2 Bb6 8.Kb1 Bc7 9.Kc2 Bb8 10.Kb1 Bc7
  =  (0.00)   Depth: 25/46   00:00:06  23133kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Kxd8 6.f5 Ra8 7.Kc2 Bb6 8.Kb1 Bc7 9.Kc2 Bb8 10.Kb1 Bc7
  =  (0.00)   Depth: 26/48   00:00:09  37470kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Kxd8 6.f5 Ra8 7.Kc2 Bb6 8.Kb1 Bc7 9.Kc2 Bb8 10.Kb1 Bc7
  =  (0.00)   Depth: 27/48   00:00:14  58399kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Kxd8 6.f5 Ra8 7.Kc2 Bb6 8.Kb1 Bc7 9.Kc2 Bb8 10.Kb1 Bc7
  =  (0.00)   Depth: 28/51   00:00:19  77863kN

(Prakash, Bhubaneswar 04.01.2012)

and this too...


New game
3B4/1r2p3/r2p1p2/bkp1P1p1/1p1P1PPp/p1P4P/PP1K4/3B4 w - - 0 1

Analysis by Deep Shredder 12 x64:

1.c4+ Kxc4 2.Be2+ Kxd4 3.Bxa6 axb2 4.Kc2 Ra7 5.Bxa5 Rxa6
  -+  (-6.90)   Depth: 7/13   00:00:00  31kN
1.c4+ Kxc4 2.Be2+ Kxd4 3.Bxa6 axb2 4.Kc2 Ra7 5.Bxa5 Rxa6 6.Bd8 dxe5 7.fxg5
  -+  (-7.80)   Depth: 8/19   00:00:00  50kN
1.exf6 bxc3+ 2.bxc3 exf6 3.Bxf6 gxf4 4.Be2+ c4 5.Bf3 Rh7 6.g5
  -+  (-6.80)   Depth: 8/27   00:00:00  278kN
1.exf6 bxc3+ 2.bxc3 exf6 3.Bxf6 gxf4 4.Be2+ c4 5.Bf3 Rh7 6.Bg5 Rf7 7.Bxh4
  -+  (-6.32)   Depth: 9/21   00:00:00  422kN
1.exf6 bxc3+ 2.bxc3 exf6 3.Bxf6 gxf4 4.Be2+ c4 5.Bf3 Rf7 6.Bg5 Rb6 7.Bxh4
  -+  (-6.51)   Depth: 10/21   00:00:00  517kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Kc8 6.f5 Kxd8 7.Kc2 Rba7 8.Kd3 Bb6 9.Kc2
  =/+  (-0.29)   Depth: 10/31   00:00:00  721kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Kc8 6.f5 Kxd8 7.Kc2 Rba7 8.Kd3 Bb6 9.Kc2 Ke8 10.Kd3
  =/+  (-0.29)   Depth: 11/24   00:00:00  804kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Kc8 6.f5 Kxd8 7.Kc2 Rba7 8.Kd3 Bb6 9.Kc2 Ke8 10.Kd3 Ra5
  =/+  (-0.29)   Depth: 12/20   00:00:00  845kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Kc8 6.f5 Kxd8 7.Kc2 Rba7 8.Kd3 Bb6 9.Kc2 Ke8 10.Kd3 Ra5 11.Ke4
  =/+  (-0.29)   Depth: 13/28   00:00:00  895kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Kc8 6.f5 Kxd8 7.Kc2 Rba7 8.Kd3 Bb6 9.Kc2 Ke8 10.Kd3 Ra5 11.Ke4 Ra8
  =/+  (-0.29)   Depth: 14/30   00:00:00  980kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Kc8 6.f5 Kxd8 7.Kc2 Rba7 8.Kd3 Bb6 9.Kc2 Ke8 10.Kd3 Ra5 11.Ke4 Ra8 12.Kf3 Bc7
  =/+  (-0.29)   Depth: 15/28   00:00:00  1115kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Kc8 6.f5 Kxd8 7.Kc2 Rba7 8.Kd3 Bb6 9.Kc2 Ke8 10.Kd3 Ra5 11.Ke4 Ra8 12.Kf3 Bc7 13.Ke2
  =/+  (-0.29)   Depth: 16/28   00:00:00  1407kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Ke8 6.f5 Bxd8 7.Kc2 Raa7 8.Kd2 Ra8 9.Ke3 Rba7 10.Kd3 Kf8 11.Ke3 Kg8 12.Ke4 Ra6 13.Ke3 Rb8 14.Kd3
  =/+  (-0.29)   Depth: 17/33   00:00:00  2051kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Ke8 6.f5 Bxd8 7.Kc2 Raa7 8.Kd2 Ra8 9.Ke3 Rba7 10.Kd3 Kf8 11.Ke3 Kg8 12.Ke4 Ra6 13.Ke3 Rb8 14.Kd3 Raa8
  =/+  (-0.29)   Depth: 18/35   00:00:00  2789kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Ke8 6.f5 Bxd8 7.Kc2 Raa7 8.Kd2 Ra8 9.Ke3 Rba7 10.Kd3 Kf8 11.Ke3 Kg8 12.Ke4 Ra6 13.Ke3 Rb8 14.Kd3 Raa8
  =/+  (-0.29)   Depth: 19/42   00:00:01  6428kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Ke8 6.f5 Bxd8 7.Kc2 Raa7 8.Kd2 Ra8 9.Ke3 Rba7 10.Kd3 Kf8 11.Ke3 Kg8 12.Ke4 Ra6 13.Ke3 Rb8 14.Kd3 Raa8
  =/+  (-0.29)   Depth: 20/41   00:00:02  10429kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Kc8 6.f5 Rb8 7.Bc7 Bxc7 8.Kc2 Raa8 9.Kd3 Kb7 10.Ke2 Kb6 11.Kf3 Rc8 12.Ke2 Rg8 13.Ke3 Rab8 14.Kd3 Ka5
  =/+  (-0.30)   Depth: 21/45   00:00:04  18305kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Kc8 6.f5 Rb8 7.Bc7 Bxc7 8.Kc2 Raa8 9.Kd3 Kb7 10.Ke2 Kb6 11.Kf3 Rc8 12.Ke2 Rg8 13.Ke3 Rab8 14.Kd3 Ka5
  =/+  (-0.30)   Depth: 22/45   00:00:10  40150kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Kc8 6.f5 Rb8 7.Bc7 Bxc7 8.Kc2 Raa8 9.Kd3 Kb7 10.Ke2 Kb6 11.Kf3 Rc8 12.Ke2 Rg8 13.Ke3 Rab8 14.Kd3 Ka5
  =/+  (-0.30)   Depth: 23/49   00:00:15  61332kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Kc8 6.f5 Rb8 7.Bc7 Bxc7 8.Kc2 Raa8 9.Kd3 Kb7 10.Ke2 Kb6 11.Kf3 Rc8 12.Ke2 Rg8 13.Ke3 Rab8 14.Kd3 Ka5
  =/+  (-0.30)   Depth: 24/50   00:00:28  115mN

(Prakash, Bhubaneswar 04.01.2012)
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #44 - 01/04/12 at 16:19:07
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Vass wrote on 12/19/11 at 09:42:47:
Good at tactics?! No way!

24. Qxe5!! is the move that wins the game.. No matter what...all the contemporary chess engines can't find it even for a day..  Cheesy

True. Not Even Rybka Cluster.
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #43 - 01/02/12 at 22:01:50
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Do the best engines and super GM's think the same?.. Some things we'll never know..  Undecided

Ok, Moro thought his 19. Na4 was enough to win the game. He did it, after all.  Wink (He's my favourite player, btw.) Anyway, if you put your favourite engine to the test to find the best 19th move here...it will disagree with Moro that 19. Na4 is best. But, they both agree that 19. Nd5 instead is nothing. (Moro didn't play it, the engine doesn't show it..  Lips Sealed) And yet, let's make this move! 19. Nd5! (...with an idea of 19....exd5 20.exd5 and 21.Bd3 and so on..)
Suddenly some things are going to crystallize..  Shocked
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #42 - 12/28/11 at 14:32:29
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Let's make an experiment! Put your favourite engine to a test with this position:
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*
This is a variation of a known position which leads to = after 1. Ba4!! But, what your favourite engine would say?!  Undecided
Edit: FEN 3B4/1r2p3/r2p1p2/bkp1P1p1/1p1P1PPp/p1P4P/PP1K4/3B4 w - - 0 1
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #41 - 12/23/11 at 13:12:14
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trw wrote on 12/20/11 at 22:45:09:
tony37 wrote on 12/02/11 at 14:41:16:
trw wrote on 11/03/11 at 19:46:17:
Markovich wrote on 11/03/11 at 16:48:54:
trw wrote on 11/03/11 at 14:08:56:
one of my favorite games is still this: http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1048284
A game which computers still don't understand the forced win for white. It came up as a 'test your strength' puzzle on chessgames.com Everyone cheated and declared the position drawn by writing down their computer's analysis. While Shirov did  not play the best defense, the game is heavily analyzed by Gelfand in his 300 best games book. All the computer moves are refuted by Gelfand's analysis to wins. No draw!

But is that true? The last comments on your link seem to suggest that Black draws after all. I haven't looked much at the chess of it.

Nope, white wins no matter what. The commentators on the game as I said are believing their chess engine -- which was the point of this thread.


I would like to be proven wrong, but I do think the last poster on that game has a point (on the variation after 32 Rc1 Qh7)



If you would like to be proven wrong, go ahead and buy Gelfand's 300 best games book.

I have Gelfand's "My Most Memorable Games" (as does the last poster on the chessgames thread) - is that the one you mean? It doesn't have 300 games, though, and it doesn't mention the poster's suggestion of 36...Qg8.
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #40 - 12/23/11 at 10:27:06
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@Papageno: Great post!.. Thank you!.. I'm interested in such games because I'm a correspondence chess player and therefore I have to know the weak sides of the contemporary chess engines in order to use them if possible.
Anyway, here is the full game you discovered:

Fantastic!..  Roll Eyes
Edit: OMG..this 27. Qf5 and 28. Rbe1!! idea is great..  Cheesy
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #39 - 12/22/11 at 19:48:29
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Although even that isn't obviously going to happen - the search tree pruning algorithms they use are always going to be prone to missing the odd very long term thing like this.

But they provide a good net benefit so can't imagine them stopping using them.
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #38 - 12/22/11 at 17:25:35
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Thanks for this very interesting thread!

The position given by Vass at #33 is from Summerscale-Jones, 2009. In fact, it seems not too difficult for an engine these days, once you allow it to reach depth 25 (Houdini 1.5a). My old and slow machine took 3 hours for solving -- contemporary hardware is probably solving this in a couple of minutes. But it should be easier and faster for a human being to find the solution. Thanks to the very straightforward nature of the solution. No big trees to calculate Smiley

The truely nice position from #34 is Gusev-Averbach, 1951, according to my database. I agree with Taljechin (#35) that Gusev lateron might have misplayed it a bit but Vass (#36) gave some convincing winning strategies.

It all comes down to the horizon effect of the computer and the engine. This means, engines are perfect at tactics if and only if the solution forces mate or a material plus (in other words, some hard facts for the machine) with a certain number of moves. Basically, if you engine is searching at depth 20 then it sees all tactics that win material within 10 moves. And cannot make deeper guesses.  Undecided

Below an example from the game Schwetlick-Ham, corr championsleague 2007. (For the solution you can google these names and find a chess blog explaining.) White played a strong move no. 23. If I'm recalling the story correctly, Black was taken by surprise and switched his machine on which kept telling him that the evaluation is 0.00 now. Thus, Black made a draw offer along with his next move. However, White had looked deeper and rightly turned down the offer. No sooner than around move 37 White got a decisive material advantage and Black then resigned.

All these examples correspond to the machines as they are right now. In a few years, we can engines expect to calculate maybe up to level 30, and in this case an engine will possibly be able to solve this following position (analyzing to level 30 at move 23 means: correctly evaluating all possibilities up to move 37). Enjoy!

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*
« Last Edit: 12/23/11 at 12:00:50 by Papageno »  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #37 - 12/20/11 at 22:45:09
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tony37 wrote on 12/02/11 at 14:41:16:
trw wrote on 11/03/11 at 19:46:17:
Markovich wrote on 11/03/11 at 16:48:54:
trw wrote on 11/03/11 at 14:08:56:
one of my favorite games is still this: http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1048284
A game which computers still don't understand the forced win for white. It came up as a 'test your strength' puzzle on chessgames.com Everyone cheated and declared the position drawn by writing down their computer's analysis. While Shirov did  not play the best defense, the game is heavily analyzed by Gelfand in his 300 best games book. All the computer moves are refuted by Gelfand's analysis to wins. No draw!

But is that true? The last comments on your link seem to suggest that Black draws after all. I haven't looked much at the chess of it.

Nope, white wins no matter what. The commentators on the game as I said are believing their chess engine -- which was the point of this thread.


I would like to be proven wrong, but I do think the last poster on that game has a point (on the variation after 32 Rc1 Qh7)



If you would like to be proven wrong, go ahead and buy Gelfand's 300 best games book.
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #36 - 12/19/11 at 20:26:05
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TalJechin wrote on 12/19/11 at 12:25:04:
@Vass Have you checked that it really is a win? My engine seems rather confident of getting a draw after 29...cxb3, for example: 30.axb3 a5 31.c4 g5 32.Kg2 a4 33.bxa4 Qa8 34.Kg3 Qd8 35.c5 Qd3+ 36.Rf3 g4!

The queen is usually a much stronger piece when wielded by an engine...

Well, don't trust your engine!.. Just try to analyze this position just like in the old days when there were no engines at all!.. In this exact position (after 27...b5) all the engines keep showing 0.00 or =, or whatever.. Just try to move the pieces for example like this: 28. a4!! a6 29. axb5 axb5 30. Rf2 Qe7 31. Ba2 Qa7 32. b4!! g5 33.Kf1! and you will see something more than just 0.00.. If you spend some hours in analysis here you'll find that white wins in all the variations. The point is to keep the white king safe from checks while achieving a position where all the engines face the so-called "zugzwang"..  Wink A position they obviously don't understand in full.. In my analyses here I often reached positions like this one:
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or this one:
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*
In fact, there's a winning plan against every black's defense. Spectacular position!..  Shocked
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #35 - 12/19/11 at 12:25:04
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@Vass Have you checked that it really is a win? My engine seems rather confident of getting a draw after 29...cxb3, for example: 30.axb3 a5 31.c4 g5 32.Kg2 a4 33.bxa4 Qa8 34.Kg3 Qd8 35.c5 Qd3+ 36.Rf3 g4!

The queen is usually a much stronger piece when wielded by an engine...
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #34 - 12/19/11 at 09:42:47
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Good at tactics?! No way!

24. Qxe5!! is the move that wins the game.. No matter what...all the contemporary chess engines can't find it even for a day..  Cheesy
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #33 - 12/19/11 at 09:24:10
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Another position which is very, very difficult to solve by the leading chess engines:
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The obvious 1....Rxh2!! with the Ra8-f8-f4 & Qh4-h6 idea is not too far from the human chess mind. Not too many moves for a chess engine to count, in fact. And yet, they can't see the best move here.  Roll Eyes
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #32 - 12/02/11 at 14:41:16
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trw wrote on 11/03/11 at 19:46:17:
Markovich wrote on 11/03/11 at 16:48:54:
trw wrote on 11/03/11 at 14:08:56:
one of my favorite games is still this: http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1048284
A game which computers still don't understand the forced win for white. It came up as a 'test your strength' puzzle on chessgames.com Everyone cheated and declared the position drawn by writing down their computer's analysis. While Shirov did  not play the best defense, the game is heavily analyzed by Gelfand in his 300 best games book. All the computer moves are refuted by Gelfand's analysis to wins. No draw!

But is that true? The last comments on your link seem to suggest that Black draws after all. I haven't looked much at the chess of it.

Nope, white wins no matter what. The commentators on the game as I said are believing their chess engine -- which was the point of this thread.


I would like to be proven wrong, but I do think the last poster on that game has a point (on the variation after 32 Rc1 Qh7)
  
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