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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth (Read 48337 times)
trw
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #76 - 02/08/12 at 16:15:52
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 02/08/12 at 15:48:39:
Vladimir, the goalposts are, can a human work out that only Bh3 wins while a computer can't?

You say that the computer sees Bh3 as winning and no other move is quite sufficient to win. I'd accept that if it reproducible. The computer can't have had Bh3 already played though.


There is no doubt in my mind that the computer had Bh3 already played for it. My engines can't find Bh3 though they are sure that a3 & Be4 wins.
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #75 - 02/08/12 at 15:48:39
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Vladimir, the goalposts are, can a human work out that only Bh3 wins while a computer can't?

You say that the computer sees Bh3 as winning and no other move is quite sufficient to win. I'd accept that if it reproducible. The computer can't have had Bh3 already played though.
  
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trw
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #74 - 02/08/12 at 15:40:50
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At depth 32 Critter 1.4a is unable to find Bh3 with endgame tablebases installed. Time to try Houdini 2.0c (which I am sure will do no better).
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #73 - 02/08/12 at 13:08:34
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 02/08/12 at 07:45:28:
Does your computer recognise that ONLY Bh3 wins?


This sounds a lot like moving the goalposts. Getting all of the other moves down to zero would be much more difficult and likely entail having to acquire tablebases. However, from running it before, the other moves' scores held steady at non-winning advantages, while ...Bh3 was the only move to be both significantly higher and steadily increasing into a winning advantage.

Vass wrote on 02/08/12 at 08:49:13:
Vladimir wrote on 02/08/12 at 00:34:07:
trw wrote on 02/07/12 at 19:02:01:
I am not the slightest amazed that engines can't find this move. I would be more amazed if they could.


On my computer, both Critter and Houdini find 47...Bh3 in less than five minutes with default settings and no endgame tablebases. 

Well, lucky you! Less than five minutes..  Cheesy
And at what depth in plys?  Huh

I didn't save the analysis, so just look here and here for examples from many engines.
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #72 - 02/08/12 at 08:49:13
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Vladimir wrote on 02/08/12 at 00:34:07:
trw wrote on 02/07/12 at 19:02:01:
I am not the slightest amazed that engines can't find this move. I would be more amazed if they could.


On my computer, both Critter and Houdini find 47...Bh3 in less than five minutes with default settings and no endgame tablebases. 

Well, lucky you! Less than five minutes..  Cheesy
And at what depth in plys?  Huh
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #71 - 02/08/12 at 07:45:28
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Does your computer recognise that ONLY Bh3 wins?

  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #70 - 02/08/12 at 00:34:07
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trw wrote on 02/07/12 at 19:02:01:
I am not the slightest amazed that engines can't find this move. I would be more amazed if they could.


This used to be the case just a few years ago. However, this position and move are considered not too much of a challenge anymore.

On my computer, both Critter and Houdini find 47...Bh3 in less than five minutes with default settings and no endgame tablebases.
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #69 - 02/07/12 at 19:02:01
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I am not the slightest amazed that engines can't find this move. I would be more amazed if they could.
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #68 - 02/07/12 at 18:02:18
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Shirov in his DVD on the Grünfeld stated that Bh3 is the only winning move in this position and that all other moves only lead to a draw. He also said that no engine could spot this move when he checked it last time, iirc he said that engines tend to dismiss certain moves right at the beginning of their calculation so that there isn't a chance that Bh3 is spotted. But not sure about that.
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #67 - 02/07/12 at 14:03:16
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Well, it seems I am impatient (allowing only 25 plys depth to Houdini 2.0, Rybka 4.1 and Critter 1.4) or something extraordinary (with this 47....Bh3!! move) happened in this game:



I'm amazed by the fact that no engine can find this 47...Bh3!! move at the 25th plys depth. Some say that this is the greatest move ever played by a hand of a chess player. A little exaggerated expression in my opinion, but why this one is so difficult for the engines?!  Shocked

Edit: They all count 47...Be4 as the best move in the exact position. But playing 47...Be4 is not the best move - the black bishop stands on the way of the black king e6-f5-e4-d3-c4. And what is more, 47...Bh3 doesn't allow g2-g4 for example..  Cool
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #66 - 01/21/12 at 18:32:29
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I came upon this diagram viewing Roman's video. He showed a game where he beat a computer in this kind of position maybe about 10 years ago with black. Now my houdini at depth 21 shows 0.55 for white. I think it is very hard for white to beat black if he just sits still.
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #65 - 01/06/12 at 13:05:19
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Vass wrote on 01/06/12 at 08:01:18:
@ Markovich: I support your opinion. As an old-timer I used to analyse myself. The engines help me only to find tactics. My own evaluation of this position before starting my engines was: white is better. That's why I went to search for tactics (first Ne4-f6+, next g5-g6). And yet, Master Om says it right: Qe3 and Qxh6 is very, very hard to find without an engine... Mhmm..and yes, too much exclams, as well as question marks.  Wink
@ Master OM: Great article!.. I always liked chess players that are strong enough to admit they were wrong. Please, let me cite your words: "This particular game has given me insight that how a human is always superior in finding deep tactics involving positional sacrifices." and "I learnt an important lesson. Until and Unless a human guides an chessprogram to a concrete plan they are useless." ...Aaah, one more thing - never change your mind! If you start an attack (or go for a queens' exchange) then do it! Do it no matter what! A wrong plan is always better than changing your mind.  Cool
Edit: Master Om, I think you use your engines too much. This way they don't give you the freedom to choose the move you feel is right. Put your intuition to a test! You check up and verify the moves they give you over and over.. There's no fun in this approach I think. Next time just do your own move and give it to the engines! After all, they're helpers, not players.  Smiley


True. I use engines much as I am good in guiding them. At somepoint I will learn to play myself when I fill myself with sufficient knowledge to guide the engines.
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #64 - 01/06/12 at 08:01:18
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@ Markovich: I support your opinion. As an old-timer I used to analyse myself. The engines help me only to find tactics. My own evaluation of this position before starting my engines was: white is better. That's why I went to search for tactics (first Ne4-f6+, next g5-g6). And yet, Master Om says it right: Qe3 and Qxh6 is very, very hard to find without an engine... Mhmm..and yes, too much exclams, as well as question marks.  Wink
@ Master OM: Great article!.. I always liked chess players that are strong enough to admit they were wrong. Please, let me cite your words: "This particular game has given me insight that how a human is always superior in finding deep tactics involving positional sacrifices." and "I learnt an important lesson. Until and Unless a human guides an chessprogram to a concrete plan they are useless." ...Aaah, one more thing - never change your mind! If you start an attack (or go for a queens' exchange) then do it! Do it no matter what! A wrong plan is always better than changing your mind.  Cool
Edit: Master Om, I think you use your engines too much. This way they don't give you the freedom to choose the move you feel is right. Put your intuition to a test! You check up and verify the moves they give you over and over.. There's no fun in this approach I think. Next time just do your own move and give it to the engines! After all, they're helpers, not players.  Smiley
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #63 - 01/06/12 at 07:28:14
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Markovich wrote on 01/06/12 at 02:47:30:
Nice yeah, but do we really need an engine to lead us to this?  These to me appear to be fairly stock ideas, and White's win seems relatively evident in the diagram, though not, perhaps, precisely how to go about it.  Does g6 really rate a double exclam?  Exclams are cheap these days, I guess.

You could say in words very easily why White's position is much better than Black's.  I'm not trying to pose as a chess genius or anything.


No Markovich, you missed my point. As a human player it is obvious I would have thought of g6 and Bxh6 But certainly wud have missed the queen sac after Qe3. If any engines are allowed to analyse unattended they dont find the continuation. So !! is for engine blindness. This was from one of my games and After I played Rc7?? I resigned in WBCCC

http://masterom.blogspot.com/2011/11/human-interaction-in-correspondence.html
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #62 - 01/06/12 at 02:47:30
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Nice yeah, but do we really need an engine to lead us to this?  These to me appear to be fairly stock ideas, and White's win seems relatively evident in the diagram, though not, perhaps, precisely how to go about it.  Does g6 really rate a double exclam?  Exclams are cheap these days, I guess.

You could say in words very easily why White's position is much better than Black's.  I'm not trying to pose as a chess genius or anything.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
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