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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth (Read 48845 times)
Master Om
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #106 - 08/22/13 at 16:49:01
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Vass wrote on 08/22/13 at 09:34:15:
I won't argue with such specialists in engines..  Roll Eyes
All I want to say here is that the examples were from year 2011 and the main analysis engine used is dated 180813.
Nice to see such progress in the last Stockfish, btw!  Wink



The 2011 positions u posted are still not found by many engines till now. Only by few whose parameter can be changed find it.
  
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Vass
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #105 - 08/22/13 at 09:34:15
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I won't argue with such specialists in engines..  Roll Eyes
All I want to say here is that the examples were from year 2011 and the main analysis engine used is dated 180813.
Nice to see such progress in the last Stockfish, btw!  Wink
  
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Master Om
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #104 - 08/21/13 at 13:12:43
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TN wrote on 08/20/13 at 12:05:28:
sloughter, chandrashekharkovi, Master Om, ?. Name who comes next in the pattern.


What do you mean by pattern ?
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #103 - 08/20/13 at 12:32:32
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Lost Highway. (No, he was a bit different! ...)
  
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TN
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #102 - 08/20/13 at 12:05:28
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sloughter, chandrashekharkovi, Master Om, ?. Name who comes next in the pattern.
  

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Master Om
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #101 - 08/20/13 at 03:06:40
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Markovich wrote on 08/19/13 at 23:31:31:
Once again, these are fairly straightforward moves for a human, are they not?



Provided the Human understands how make a king side attack!! Cheesy
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #100 - 08/20/13 at 00:22:55
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Markovich wrote on 08/19/13 at 23:31:31:
Once again, these are fairly straightforward moves for a human, are they not?


Blindingly obvious, yes. I fail to see a point being made here.
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #99 - 08/19/13 at 23:31:31
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Once again, these are fairly straightforward moves for a human, are they not?
  

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Master Om
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #98 - 08/19/13 at 21:13:51
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tony37 wrote on 07/31/13 at 20:08:50:
Vass wrote on 11/15/11 at 11:13:44:
Engines good at tactics.. Really?

an example from one of my correspondence games:

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Houdini (1.5) evaluates this as completely equal giving 1.Ndf3 at depth 23
yet, black is totally lost after 1.Bxh7+! Kxh7 2.Qh5+ Kg8 3.Qxh4 Nxe5 4.fxe5 Be7 5.Rf6!! (what a wonderful move)


Very Nice Position!!. I couldnot produce everytime though as smp analysis are not always reproducible.
But New Stockfish Dev versions are good.

New game
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Analysis by Stockfish 180813 64 SSE4.2:

16.Bxh7+ Kxh7 17.Qh5+ Kg8 18.Qxh4 Nxe5 19.fxe5 Be7 20.Rf6 Rxc2 21.Nf3 Re8 22.g6 fxg6 23.Ng5 Bxf6 24.Qh7+ Kf8 25.Rf1 Qc7 26.exf6 Qxh2+ 27.Qxh2 Rxh2 28.Kxh2 Ba6 29.fxg7+ Kg8 30.Rf6 Re7 31.Nxe6 Rf7 32.Rxf7 Kxf7 33.Kg3 Bc8 34.Nc7 Kxg7 35.Kf4 Bf5 36.Nxd5 Kf7 37.Ke5
+-  (3.55)    Depth: 28/55   00:02:38  296mN
(Prakash, Bhubaneswar 20.08.2013)


I tried again with another of my parameters. I found it again.

New game
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Analysis by Stockfish 180813 64 SSE4.2:

16.Bxh7+ Kxh7 17.Qh5+ Kg8 18.Qxh4 Nxe5 19.fxe5 Be7 20.Rf6 Rxc2 21.Raf1 Rxd2 22.g6 fxg6 23.Rxf8+ Qxf8 24.Rxf8+ Bxf8 25.Bc3 Rc2 26.Bb4 Bxb4 27.axb4 Kf7 28.Qf4+ Ke7 29.Qg4 Kf7 30.Qf3+ Ke8 31.Qd3 Rc1+ 32.Kf2 Kf7 33.Qf3+ Ke8
+/-  (1.43 ++)    Depth: 30/68   00:04:40  597mN
(Prakash, Bhubaneswar 20.08.2013)

I found My favorite engine Spark finds it fastest. only 0.17 secs.
New game
2rq1rk1/pb1n1ppp/1p1bp3/3pN1P1/3P1P1n/PP1B4/1BPNQ2P/R4RK1 w - - 0 1

Analysis by Spark-1.0-win64-mp-corei:

16.Bxh7+ Kxh7 17.Qh5+ Kg8 18.Qxh4 Rxc2 19.Rf3 f5 20.Nxd7 Qxd7 21.g6 Re8 22.Rh3 Kf8 23.Bc3 Ba6 24.Re1 e5 25.fxe5 Qe6 26.Rg3 Bxa3
+-  (1.83 --)    Depth: 18/39   00:00:17  99053kN
(Prakash, Bhubaneswar 20.08.2013)



Note none is running on default parameters and only on a laptop consisting slow intel 3 cores. May be on Big hardwares it will be faster.

  
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Master Om
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #97 - 08/19/13 at 20:23:13
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Vass wrote on 12/19/11 at 09:24:10:
Another position which is very, very difficult to solve by the leading chess engines:
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The obvious 1....Rxh2!! with the Ra8-f8-f4 & Qh4-h6 idea is not too far from the human chess mind. Not too many moves for a chess engine to count, in fact. And yet, they can't see the best move here.  Roll Eyes


What engines cant see ? You must have used a crap engine.

New game
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Analysis by Spark-1.0-win64-mp-corei:

1...Rxh2+ 2.Bxh2 Qh4 3.Qg1 Rf8 4.f4 exf4 5.Rd1 Ba4 6.Rd2 Bxb3 7.Bxb3 f3 8.gxf3 Be5 9.Bd1 Rf6 10.b3 gxh2 11.Qe3 Bg3 12.Rg2 Rh6 13.Qc3 Be5 14.Qd2 Bf4 15.Qc3
-+  (-11.54)    Depth: 26/56   00:06:01  1733mN
(Prakash, Bhubaneswar 20.08.2013)

Still I feel White can defend Rxh2!?
  
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Master Om
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #96 - 08/19/13 at 19:36:38
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Vass wrote on 11/03/11 at 14:09:02:
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 11/03/11 at 13:41:46:
Thx, Vass! I'm amazed that the engines can't see that plan. But then, I've found that even now, Roman Dzindzichasvili's old (1990s) method of using pawn storms to crush engines still works in correspondence.

You're welcome!..  Cool
Amazingly, even in the positions that are highly tactical the engines can't do without the correspondent player. At least, when a strategy is needed.. Look at this example:
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This one is from a correspondent chess game, too.. Every correspondent player will try to analyze the winning move 1.Ncxe5!! first.. Try some Houdini's or Rybka's!.. They can see it in 27-depth  Shocked, at least.. While the human strategy is simple: sac the knight for two pawns (Kh8-h7 is a must), exchange the c-file rooks (Rc1xc8, Rfxc8 is compulsory, too), then move the queen along f3-g4-f5 route and...you can help yourself with some engines if you're lazy..  Wink
The pawn storm is coming..  Grin


Again with the current hardwares you dont even need a human's strategy most of the time in middle games. Before An intelligent corr player first checks his pet program suitable in those positions first.

New game
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Analysis by Stockfish 180813 64 SSE4.2:

29.Ncxe5 dxe5 30.Nxe5 Kh7 31.Rxc8 Rxc8 32.Qf3 Bf6 33.Qh5 Bxe5 34.Qxe5 Rc2 35.Qf5+ g6 36.Qxf4 Qg7 37.Rc1 Rc3 38.Rxc3 Nxc3 39.Qf3 Nb1 40.Bc1 Nxb4 41.Bxb5
+-  (2.12 ++)    Depth: 30/48   00:03:26  429mN
(Prakash, Bhubaneswar 20.08.2013)
  
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Master Om
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #95 - 08/19/13 at 19:27:06
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 11/03/11 at 13:41:46:
Thx, Vass! I'm amazed that the engines can't see that plan. But then, I've found that even now, Roman Dzindzichasvili's old (1990s) method of using pawn storms to crush engines still works in correspondence.


Symslov fan , Please see my response to Vass.
  
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Master Om
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #94 - 08/19/13 at 19:24:18
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Vass wrote on 11/03/11 at 12:01:04:
As correspondence chess players know...the engines are far from perfection. One may look at this position with Houdini, Rybka or whatever and never find the win for black (position taken from a correspondence chess game):
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*

Then try to think yourself, analyze a bit...and you'll see:
1... g3! 2. h3 Bxh3! 3. gxh3 g2 4. Rfc1 Qh4-+  Cool
They use to to say correspondence chess is dead. Yes, it's dead...when relying only on machines.  Wink



First of all there are many chess programs. All have there special characteristics as the way are programmed. So before saying engines don't find is not the appropiate way of showing a engines weakness. Programs are only tools. Its the user deficiency of knowledge of how to use them and novices throw all the fault on programs.
Here is mine.

New game
r5rk/1ppb1p1p/1n1p1q2/3Pb3/1PPNPpp1/3Q1P2/2B1N1PP/1R3RK1 b - - 0 1

New game
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Analysis by Stockfish 180813 64 SSE4.2:

1...g3 2.h3 Bxh3 3.gxh3 g2 4.Rfd1 Qh4 5.Nf5 Qxh3 6.Kf2 g1B+ 7.Rxg1 Qh2+ 8.Ke1 Rxg1+ 9.Nxg1 Qxg1+ 10.Qf1 Bc3+ 11.Ke2 Qh2+ 12.Qf2 Qxf2+ 13.Kxf2 Ra2 14.Rc1 Bxb4 15.Kg1 Ba3 16.Bb3 Bc5+ 17.Kh1 Rf2 18.Rc3 Nd7 19.Nh4 Ne5 20.Rc2 Rxc2 21.Bxc2 Nxc4 22.Nf5 Kg8 23.Kg2 b5 24.Bd3 h5
-+  (-2.98 --)    Depth: 28/54   00:01:14  179mN
(Prakash, Bhubaneswar 20.08.2013)


It took only 30 secs to find Black is winning!!.

Its your inefficiency that you dont know what to use where. Its not programs fault!!.
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #93 - 08/19/13 at 19:04:53
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Markovich wrote on 10/30/11 at 06:46:21:
Ferit Tuncer wrote on 10/28/11 at 11:01:42:
@fling,

I understand what you mean. But i expect most presice results from most competitive engine. Maybe i am wrong. But i am not engine specialist, and don't know algorithms.

That's not all you don't know. These engines simply are not a path to Chess Truth, and it's both amusing and a little annoying that anyone would come here with the idea that they are. I suggest that you take up correspondence chess, and after a couple of years, I can assure you that your regard for your pet engines will be very much diminished.


This is partially true. Chess programs are necessary Evil. Humans are good in strategic planning on certain positions an chess programs are dynamicaly and tactically strong. You just cant avoid them. These use of programs will not diminish. I have been playing freestyle and correspondence chess since 5 years and I find them helpful.
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #92 - 07/31/13 at 21:35:41
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well, it does see Rf6 when you take the position right before that move, but not when it's 9 half-moves away as in the starting position
once it sees Rf6, Houdini is going crazy about Bxh7+, and my opponent (about 2200) resigned after I played that move, so it was a win in 16 starting with 1.b3!
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #91 - 07/31/13 at 21:05:25
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Wow!

This is one of those positions I would have guessed that an engine would get right. I wonder how it missed 5.Rf6. When you plugged in the moves, did it recognise how powerful the offered sac was?
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #90 - 07/31/13 at 20:08:50
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Vass wrote on 11/15/11 at 11:13:44:
Engines good at tactics.. Really?

an example from one of my correspondence games:

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*
Houdini (1.5) evaluates this as completely equal giving 1.Ndf3 at depth 23
yet, black is totally lost after 1.Bxh7+! Kxh7 2.Qh5+ Kg8 3.Qxh4 Nxe5 4.fxe5 Be7 5.Rf6!! (what a wonderful move)
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #89 - 10/29/12 at 08:53:23
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trw wrote on 10/29/12 at 03:09:17:
You don't need to post your hardware just your depth reached. Depth 36 is depth 36 whether it is reached in one day via 200 cores or 10 days via 2 cores.

No doubt about it!  Wink
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #88 - 10/29/12 at 03:09:17
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You don't need to post your hardware just your depth reached. Depth 36 is depth 36 whether it is reached in one day via 200 cores or 10 days via 2 cores.
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #87 - 10/29/12 at 00:13:00
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Hmm. I haven't gone through the entire thread so apologies if this point has already been made; besides, I don't disagree with the basic idea that human + engine trumps engine.

What I notice though when people remark how engines failed to understand this position or that, and compare this engine to that, they never mention what computer they 're using, and their processor in particular. That makes a tremendous difference. It won't do you much good to employ Rybka 10 on your 10 year old budget laptop, whereas a very simple materialistic evaluation engine can go a very long way given lots of computational power.

  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #86 - 10/23/12 at 22:43:03
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I just thought i'd update this thread to show the amazing advancement of Houdini 2c to Houdini3.

Houdini 2c was unable to determine that Bh3 won or was even the best move (though still to it's credit, it thought neither Be4 or a3 was winning).

However, at long last, an engine is able to determine Bh3 is winning! Houdini 3 thinks Bh3 wins (though sadly it still thinks Be4 and a3 also win).

238: Veselin Topalov - Alexey Shirov, It (cat.21) Linares (Spain) 1998
8/8/4kpp1/3p1b2/p6P/2B5/6P1/6K1 b - - 0 1

Analysis by Houdini 3 Pro x64:

1. -+  (-9.59): 47...Bh3 48.Kf2 Kf5 49.Ke3 Bxg2 50.Bb2 Be4 51.Bc3 a3 52.Kd2 Bg2 53.Kc1 Ke4 54.Bxf6 d4 55.Kb1 d3 56.Bc3 Kf3 57.Ka1 Ke2 58.Ka2 Bd5+ 59.Kxa3 d2 60.Bxd2 Kxd2 61.Kb2 Kd3 62.Kc1 Ke3 63.Kc2 Be4+ 64.Kc3

2. -+  (-1.61): 47...Be4 48.Kf2 f5 49.g3 Kd7 50.Bb2 Kc6 51.Ke3 Kc5 52.Be5 a3 53.Bd4+ Kc4 54.Be5 a2 55.Ba1 Bd3 56.Bf6 Bb1 57.Ba1 Be4 58.Bd4 Bf3 59.Bf6 Bh5 60.Bd4 Bd1

Depth 36
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #85 - 10/19/12 at 22:24:36
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Vass wrote on 11/22/11 at 07:51:19:
I think the engine's program is written economically in a way that can be described as "following the principles".. In this special case (promoting to bishop) the engine is told to consider promoting to B (instead of to queen) only if the opponent is entering into a stalemate right after a direct queen promotion. And if not a stalemate right after the promotion then a new-promoted queen is considered to be better than a new-promoted bishop, which in most of the cases (maybe 99.9 %) is true. A problem arises in this particular case when (in 0.01% maybe) a special position like this one is arranged. Anyway, I still can't figure how the strength of the engine is affected by this arrangement of the engine's "thinking process".. Maybe these + ELO points are gained because of the fact that this particular engine is "thinking" faster in some positions than the other engines which are not modified by this rule.. Who knows? Only the engine programmers maybe..  Cool

I was reminded of this discussion when I came across this webpage about minor promotion: http://timkr.home.xs4all.nl/chess2/minor.htm
At the end of the page you'll find this position (which occured in a real game) where the only winning move is a bishop promotion

  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #84 - 02/16/12 at 15:58:46
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Vass wrote on 02/12/12 at 17:28:44:
I don't know what engines say about this position...but I can easily guess.  Wink

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*

FEN: 8/8/8/1k1p2p1/p2P2P1/P3P3/qPKN4/8 w - - 0 1

Why all these silicon beasts don't understand chess fortresses at all?
Huh


I don't get it. This looks like a trivial win for black to me. Stockfish agrees.

Update: Oops - now I do. Sorry for the noise.
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #83 - 02/16/12 at 14:17:59
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For amusement and education, I play G-15 a good deal against Shredder on my Galaxy Tab handheld. Strong program normally, but much less so on this little machine.

Anyhow, play not infrequently goes 1.e4 Nf6 2.e5 Nd5 3.Nf3 d6 4.Bc4 Nb6, and here, unaccountably and invariably, Shredder takes more than a minute to produce White's next move! What the heck is to think about?! 5.Bb3 is the only move that makes any sense.

5.Bxf7+? Kxf7 6.e6+ Kg8 -+.
« Last Edit: 02/16/12 at 15:21:30 by Markovich »  

The Great Oz has spoken!
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #82 - 02/15/12 at 12:37:57
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Not one of my engines (even at depth 36) found the best move here:

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FEN: 7k/6rp/6pN/5rP1/8/2B5/8/K7 b - - 0 1

...While a human chess player wil see almost immediately that 1. ...Rxg5! is the best move here and the only one that is worth considering in order to win.  Wink
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #81 - 02/12/12 at 17:28:44
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I don't know what engines say about this position...but I can easily guess.  Wink

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

FEN: 8/8/8/1k1p2p1/p2P2P1/P3P3/qPKN4/8 w - - 0 1

Why all these silicon beasts don't understand chess fortresses at all?
Huh
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #80 - 02/09/12 at 16:31:47
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[quote author=47796D67787B624B52757A140 link=1319957182/75#75 date=1328716119]Vladimir, the goalposts are, can a human work out that only Bh3 wins while a computer can't?
[/quote]

I guess 99% of the human players wouldn't even consider ...Bh3, unless they've seen the idea before.

The machines are getting better and better, but sometimes they can still show a remarkable [i]lack of common sense[/i]. For example, I recently made some engines play an unusual opening idea to get some more practical examples. Unfortunately, all the games played were useless, as in the structure f5,e6,d7,c5,b7 with a Bc8 present, none of them ever got around to let Bc8 out! :))

So, many of the games became examples of middlegames/endings with a white c5-pawn almost single-handedly holding down d7, Bc8 and b7 until black eventually caved in.

Here, in similar situations, I'm sure 99% of the human players would find the time to let the bishop out with d6 or b6 long before a white c5-pawn appears...
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #79 - 02/08/12 at 18:45:13
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...As some say on a computer chess forum which member I am: "The stars were shining properly when the move was found."   Grin
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #78 - 02/08/12 at 17:58:43
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 02/08/12 at 15:48:39:
Vladimir, the goalposts are, can a human work out that only Bh3 wins while a computer can't?

You say that the computer sees Bh3 as winning and no other move is quite sufficient to win. I'd accept that if it reproducible. The computer can't have had Bh3 already played though.

As I said, the goalposts seem to have moved because everyone was previously wondering if computers could even find the move, like the very quote I prefaced my first post with. And amidst all of this incredulity, did either of you look at the two links provided? Several engines find 47...Bh3 in reasonable time.  Huh Notably, though, Stockfish seems to fail at finding the move.

Here is Houdini 1.5a, with the score still going up and up on the 29th ply before I decided to finally terminate the search. Note that Houdini doesn't really show its periodic score increments on separate lines like Critter does, so the final line's +5.60 is only after several smaller increases were displayed during the search:

Code
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Houdini_15a_x64:

 26/54	00:49	 553,861,944	11,081,000	+1.48	Bf5-e4 g2-g3 f6-f5 Kg1-f2 Ke6-d6 Bc3-d4 Kd6-c6 Kf2-e2 Kc6-b5 Ke2-d2 Kb5-c4 Bd4-b2 d5-d4 Kd2-e2 d4-d3+ Ke2-d2 Kc4-b3 Bb2-a1 a4-a3 Ba1-c3 a3-a2 Bc3-h8 Kb3-c4 Kd2-e3 Be4-f3 Ke3-d2 Bf3-d5 Bh8-c3 Bd5-b7 Bc3-a1 Bb7-e4 Kd2-c1 Be4-a8 Kc1-d2 Ba8-d5 Kd2-e3 Bd5-e4 Ke3-d2 Be4-f3 Kd2-e3 Bf3-h5 Ba1-e5 Bh5-g4 Ke3-d2 Bg4-e2 Be5-c3 Be2-h5 Bc3-b2 Bh5-g4 Bb2-a1 Bg4-e2 Ba1-c3 Be2-h5
 27/54	01:02	 694,243,666	11,165,000	+1.48	Bf5-e4 g2-g3 f6-f5 Kg1-f2 Ke6-d6 Bc3-d4 Kd6-c6 Kf2-e2 Kc6-b5 Ke2-d2 Kb5-c4 Bd4-b2 d5-d4 Kd2-e2 d4-d3+ Ke2-d2 Kc4-b3 Bb2-a1 a4-a3 Ba1-c3 a3-a2 Bc3-h8 Kb3-c4 Kd2-e3 Be4-f3 Ke3-d2 Bf3-d5 Bh8-c3 Bd5-e4 Bc3-f6 Kc4-b3 Bf6-e5 Kb3-c4 Kd2-c1 Kc4-d5 Be5-a1 Be4-f3 Kc1-d2 Kd5-c4 Kd2-e3 Bf3-h5 Ba1-e5 Bh5-g4 Ke3-d2 Bg4-e2 Be5-c3 Be2-h5 Bc3-b2 Bh5-g4 Bb2-a1 Bg4-e2 Ba1-c3 Be2-h5
 28/54	01:22	 929,349,860	11,264,000	+1.48	Bf5-e4 g2-g3 f6-f5 Kg1-f2 Ke6-d6 Bc3-d4 Kd6-c6 Kf2-e2 Kc6-b5 Ke2-d2 Kb5-c4 Bd4-b2 d5-d4 Kd2-e2 d4-d3+ Ke2-d2 Kc4-b3 Bb2-a1 a4-a3 Ba1-c3 a3-a2 Bc3-h8 Kb3-c4 Kd2-e3 Be4-f3 Ke3-d2 Bf3-d5 Bh8-c3 Bd5-e4 Bc3-f6 Be4-c6 Bf6-a1 Bc6-b7 Kd2-e3 Bb7-d5 Ba1-h8 Bd5-e4 Ke3-d2 Be4-b7 Bh8-a1 Bb7-e4 Kd2-c1 Be4-a8 Kc1-d2 Ba8-d5 Kd2-e3 Bd5-e4 Ke3-d2 Be4-f3 Kd2-e3 Bf3-h5 Ba1-e5 Bh5-g4 Ke3-d2 Bg4-e2 Be5-c3 Be2-h5 Bc3-b2 Bh5-g4 Bb2-a1 Bg4-e2 Ba1-c3 Be2-h5
 29/63	01:57	1,338,366,562	11,349,000	+1.48	Bf5-e4 g2-g3 f6-f5 Kg1-f2 Ke6-d6 Bc3-d4 Kd6-c6 Kf2-e2 Kc6-b5 Ke2-d2 Kb5-c4 Bd4-b2 d5-d4 Kd2-e2 d4-d3+ Ke2-d2 Kc4-b3 Bb2-a1 a4-a3 Ba1-c3 a3-a2 Bc3-h8 Kb3-c4 Kd2-e3 Be4-f3 Ke3-d2 Bf3-d5 Bh8-c3 Bd5-e4 Bc3-f6 Kc4-b4 Kd2-c1 Kb4-b3 Bf6-a1 Kb3-b4 Kc1-d2 Kb4-c4 Kd2-c1 Be4-a8 Kc1-d2 Ba8-d5 Kd2-e3 Bd5-e4 Ke3-d2 Be4-f3 Kd2-e3 Bf3-h5 Ba1-e5 Bh5-g4 Ke3-d2 Bg4-e2 Be5-c3 Be2-h5 Bc3-b2 Bh5-e2 Bb2-a1 Be2-f3 Kd2-e3
 29/64+	03:07	2,134,991,667	11,382,000	+1.56	Bf5-h3
 29/78+	13:15	9,214,503,132	11,583,000	+5.60	Bf5-h3
 




Here is Critter 1.4 with the session file disabled and deleted just in case. Similar to Houdini, the score kept rising on the 28th ply before I terminated the search.

Code
Select All
Critter_1.4_64bit_sse4:

 26/49	00:43	 446,703,523	10,260,790	+1.95	Bf5-e4 g2-g3 f6-f5 Kg1-f2 Ke6-d6 Bc3-b4+ Kd6-c6 Kf2-e2 Kc6-b5 Bb4-e7 Kb5-c4 Ke2-d2 d5-d4 Kd2-c1 Kc4-b3 Be7-f6 d4-d3 Kc1-d2 a4-a3 Bf6-c3 Kb3-c4 Bc3-e5 a3-a2 Be5-a1 Be4-f3 Ba1-f6 Bf3-a8 Bf6-c3 Ba8-d5 Bc3-a1 Bd5-e4 Ba1-c3 Be4-f3 Bc3-a1 Bf3-a8 Ba1-c3
 27/49	01:05	 665,685,130	10,161,890	+1.95	Bf5-e4 g2-g3 f6-f5 Kg1-f2 Ke6-d6 Bc3-b4+ Kd6-c6 Kf2-e2 Kc6-b5 Bb4-e7 Kb5-c4 Ke2-d2 d5-d4 Kd2-c1 Kc4-b3 Be7-f6 d4-d3 Kc1-d2 a4-a3 Bf6-c3 Kb3-c4 Bc3-e5 a3-a2 Be5-a1 Be4-f3 Ba1-f6 Bf3-a8 Bf6-c3 Ba8-d5 Bc3-a1 Bd5-e4 Ba1-c3 Be4-f3 Bc3-a1 Bf3-a8 Ba1-c3
 28/49	01:41	1,045,130,803	10,351,724	+1.95	Bf5-e4 g2-g3 f6-f5 Kg1-f2 Ke6-d6 Bc3-b4+ Kd6-c6 Kf2-e2 Kc6-b5 Bb4-e7 Kb5-c4 Ke2-d2 d5-d4 Kd2-c1 Kc4-b3 Be7-f6 d4-d3 Kc1-d2 a4-a3 Bf6-c3 Kb3-c4 Bc3-e5 a3-a2 Be5-a1 Be4-f3 Ba1-f6 Bf3-a8 Bf6-c3 Ba8-d5 Bc3-a1 Bd5-e4 Kd2-c1 Be4-f3 Kc1-d2 Bf3-a8 Ba1-c3
 28/66+	03:17	2,124,799,077	10,784,796	+2.07	Bf5-h3 g2xh3 Ke6-f5 Kg1-f2 Kf5-e4 Bc3-b2 f6-f5 Kf2-e2 f5-f4 Bb2-c1 f4-f3+ Ke2-d2 d5-d4 Bc1-a3 d4-d3 Kd2-e1 Ke4-d5 Ba3-b2 Kd5-c4 Bb2-c1 Kc4-c3 h4-h5 g6xh5 h3-h4 Kc3-c2 Bc1-d2 a4-a3
 28/71+	04:34	3,012,321,706	11,002,990	+2.37	Bf5-h3 g2xh3 Ke6-f5 Kg1-f2 Kf5-e4 Bc3-b2 f6-f5 Kf2-e2 f5-f4 Bb2-c1 f4-f3+ Ke2-d2 d5-d4 Bc1-a3 d4-d3 Kd2-e1 Ke4-d5 Ba3-b2 Kd5-c4 Bb2-c1 Kc4-c3 h4-h5 g6xh5 h3-h4 Kc3-c2 Bc1-d2 a4-a3
 28/74+	06:01	4,023,197,764	11,136,910	+2.64	Bf5-h3 g2xh3 Ke6-f5 Kg1-f2 Kf5-e4 Bc3-b2 f6-f5 Kf2-e2 f5-f4 Bb2-c1 f4-f3+ Ke2-d2 d5-d4 Bc1-a3 d4-d3 Kd2-e1 Ke4-d5 h4-h5 g6xh5 h3-h4 Kd5-d4 Ba3-e7 Kd4-c4 Be7-d6 Kc4-b3 Bd6-c5 Kb3-c3 Ke1-d1 Kc3-c4 Bc5-f2 a4-a3 Kd1-d2 a3-a2
 28/74+	08:50	5,995,119,336	11,307,534	+3.05	Bf5-h3 g2xh3 Ke6-f5 Kg1-f2 Kf5-e4 Bc3-b2 f6-f5 Kf2-e2 f5-f4 Bb2-c1 f4-f3+ Ke2-d2 d5-d4 Bc1-a3 d4-d3 Kd2-e1 Ke4-d5 h4-h5 g6xh5 h3-h4 Kd5-d4 Ba3-e7 Kd4-c4 Be7-a3 Kc4-b3 Ba3-c5 Kb3-c3 Ke1-d1 Kc3-c4 Bc5-b6 a4-a3 Kd1-d2 a3-a2
 28/74+	14:32	10,021,279,498	11,493,228	+3.65	Bf5-h3 g2xh3 Ke6-f5 Kg1-f2 Kf5-e4 Bc3-b2 f6-f5 Kf2-e2 f5-f4 Bb2-c1 f4-f3+ Ke2-d2 d5-d4 Bc1-a3 d4-d3 Kd2-e1 Ke4-d5 h4-h5 g6xh5 Ba3-b2 Kd5-e4 Bb2-g7 Ke4-e3 Bg7-h6+ Ke3-d4 Ke1-d2 a4-a3 Bh6-g7+ Kd4-e4 Kd2-e1 a3-a2 Bg7-f6 Ke4-e3 Bf6-g5+ Ke3-d4 Bg5-f6+ Kd4-c4 Bf6-a1 h5-h4 Ba1-f6 Kc4-d5 Bf6-g7 Kd5-e4 Bg7-f6 Ke4-e3 Bf6-g5+ Ke3-d4 Bg5-f6+ Kd4-e4 Bf6-g7 Ke4-e3 Bg7-h6+ Ke3-d4 Bh6-g7+ Kd4-e4 



Trw, SMP searches are non-deterministic. That means that exact times are not reproducible, and that separate runs could find the move faster or slower than before, and even on different depths. For example, if I run through them again, they could find the move after 5 minutes, or get lucky and find it in under 3. Or maybe they find the solution faster without the slowdown from tablebases, who knows.
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #77 - 02/08/12 at 17:43:16
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At depth 32, Houdini also failed to find Bh3. But to Houdini's credit, it didn't think Be4 and a3 were 'winning' just slightly better. at 1.32 and 1.23
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #76 - 02/08/12 at 16:15:52
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 02/08/12 at 15:48:39:
Vladimir, the goalposts are, can a human work out that only Bh3 wins while a computer can't?

You say that the computer sees Bh3 as winning and no other move is quite sufficient to win. I'd accept that if it reproducible. The computer can't have had Bh3 already played though.


There is no doubt in my mind that the computer had Bh3 already played for it. My engines can't find Bh3 though they are sure that a3 & Be4 wins.
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #75 - 02/08/12 at 15:48:39
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Vladimir, the goalposts are, can a human work out that only Bh3 wins while a computer can't?

You say that the computer sees Bh3 as winning and no other move is quite sufficient to win. I'd accept that if it reproducible. The computer can't have had Bh3 already played though.
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #74 - 02/08/12 at 15:40:50
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At depth 32 Critter 1.4a is unable to find Bh3 with endgame tablebases installed. Time to try Houdini 2.0c (which I am sure will do no better).
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #73 - 02/08/12 at 13:08:34
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 02/08/12 at 07:45:28:
Does your computer recognise that ONLY Bh3 wins?


This sounds a lot like moving the goalposts. Getting all of the other moves down to zero would be much more difficult and likely entail having to acquire tablebases. However, from running it before, the other moves' scores held steady at non-winning advantages, while ...Bh3 was the only move to be both significantly higher and steadily increasing into a winning advantage.

Vass wrote on 02/08/12 at 08:49:13:
Vladimir wrote on 02/08/12 at 00:34:07:
trw wrote on 02/07/12 at 19:02:01:
I am not the slightest amazed that engines can't find this move. I would be more amazed if they could.


On my computer, both Critter and Houdini find 47...Bh3 in less than five minutes with default settings and no endgame tablebases. 

Well, lucky you! Less than five minutes..  Cheesy
And at what depth in plys?  Huh

I didn't save the analysis, so just look here and here for examples from many engines.
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #72 - 02/08/12 at 08:49:13
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Vladimir wrote on 02/08/12 at 00:34:07:
trw wrote on 02/07/12 at 19:02:01:
I am not the slightest amazed that engines can't find this move. I would be more amazed if they could.


On my computer, both Critter and Houdini find 47...Bh3 in less than five minutes with default settings and no endgame tablebases. 

Well, lucky you! Less than five minutes..  Cheesy
And at what depth in plys?  Huh
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #71 - 02/08/12 at 07:45:28
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Does your computer recognise that ONLY Bh3 wins?

  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #70 - 02/08/12 at 00:34:07
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trw wrote on 02/07/12 at 19:02:01:
I am not the slightest amazed that engines can't find this move. I would be more amazed if they could.


This used to be the case just a few years ago. However, this position and move are considered not too much of a challenge anymore.

On my computer, both Critter and Houdini find 47...Bh3 in less than five minutes with default settings and no endgame tablebases.
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #69 - 02/07/12 at 19:02:01
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I am not the slightest amazed that engines can't find this move. I would be more amazed if they could.
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #68 - 02/07/12 at 18:02:18
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Shirov in his DVD on the Grünfeld stated that Bh3 is the only winning move in this position and that all other moves only lead to a draw. He also said that no engine could spot this move when he checked it last time, iirc he said that engines tend to dismiss certain moves right at the beginning of their calculation so that there isn't a chance that Bh3 is spotted. But not sure about that.
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #67 - 02/07/12 at 14:03:16
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Well, it seems I am impatient (allowing only 25 plys depth to Houdini 2.0, Rybka 4.1 and Critter 1.4) or something extraordinary (with this 47....Bh3!! move) happened in this game:



I'm amazed by the fact that no engine can find this 47...Bh3!! move at the 25th plys depth. Some say that this is the greatest move ever played by a hand of a chess player. A little exaggerated expression in my opinion, but why this one is so difficult for the engines?!  Shocked

Edit: They all count 47...Be4 as the best move in the exact position. But playing 47...Be4 is not the best move - the black bishop stands on the way of the black king e6-f5-e4-d3-c4. And what is more, 47...Bh3 doesn't allow g2-g4 for example..  Cool
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #66 - 01/21/12 at 18:32:29
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I came upon this diagram viewing Roman's video. He showed a game where he beat a computer in this kind of position maybe about 10 years ago with black. Now my houdini at depth 21 shows 0.55 for white. I think it is very hard for white to beat black if he just sits still.
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #65 - 01/06/12 at 13:05:19
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Vass wrote on 01/06/12 at 08:01:18:
@ Markovich: I support your opinion. As an old-timer I used to analyse myself. The engines help me only to find tactics. My own evaluation of this position before starting my engines was: white is better. That's why I went to search for tactics (first Ne4-f6+, next g5-g6). And yet, Master Om says it right: Qe3 and Qxh6 is very, very hard to find without an engine... Mhmm..and yes, too much exclams, as well as question marks.  Wink
@ Master OM: Great article!.. I always liked chess players that are strong enough to admit they were wrong. Please, let me cite your words: "This particular game has given me insight that how a human is always superior in finding deep tactics involving positional sacrifices." and "I learnt an important lesson. Until and Unless a human guides an chessprogram to a concrete plan they are useless." ...Aaah, one more thing - never change your mind! If you start an attack (or go for a queens' exchange) then do it! Do it no matter what! A wrong plan is always better than changing your mind.  Cool
Edit: Master Om, I think you use your engines too much. This way they don't give you the freedom to choose the move you feel is right. Put your intuition to a test! You check up and verify the moves they give you over and over.. There's no fun in this approach I think. Next time just do your own move and give it to the engines! After all, they're helpers, not players.  Smiley


True. I use engines much as I am good in guiding them. At somepoint I will learn to play myself when I fill myself with sufficient knowledge to guide the engines.
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #64 - 01/06/12 at 08:01:18
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@ Markovich: I support your opinion. As an old-timer I used to analyse myself. The engines help me only to find tactics. My own evaluation of this position before starting my engines was: white is better. That's why I went to search for tactics (first Ne4-f6+, next g5-g6). And yet, Master Om says it right: Qe3 and Qxh6 is very, very hard to find without an engine... Mhmm..and yes, too much exclams, as well as question marks.  Wink
@ Master OM: Great article!.. I always liked chess players that are strong enough to admit they were wrong. Please, let me cite your words: "This particular game has given me insight that how a human is always superior in finding deep tactics involving positional sacrifices." and "I learnt an important lesson. Until and Unless a human guides an chessprogram to a concrete plan they are useless." ...Aaah, one more thing - never change your mind! If you start an attack (or go for a queens' exchange) then do it! Do it no matter what! A wrong plan is always better than changing your mind.  Cool
Edit: Master Om, I think you use your engines too much. This way they don't give you the freedom to choose the move you feel is right. Put your intuition to a test! You check up and verify the moves they give you over and over.. There's no fun in this approach I think. Next time just do your own move and give it to the engines! After all, they're helpers, not players.  Smiley
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #63 - 01/06/12 at 07:28:14
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Markovich wrote on 01/06/12 at 02:47:30:
Nice yeah, but do we really need an engine to lead us to this?  These to me appear to be fairly stock ideas, and White's win seems relatively evident in the diagram, though not, perhaps, precisely how to go about it.  Does g6 really rate a double exclam?  Exclams are cheap these days, I guess.

You could say in words very easily why White's position is much better than Black's.  I'm not trying to pose as a chess genius or anything.


No Markovich, you missed my point. As a human player it is obvious I would have thought of g6 and Bxh6 But certainly wud have missed the queen sac after Qe3. If any engines are allowed to analyse unattended they dont find the continuation. So !! is for engine blindness. This was from one of my games and After I played Rc7?? I resigned in WBCCC

http://masterom.blogspot.com/2011/11/human-interaction-in-correspondence.html
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #62 - 01/06/12 at 02:47:30
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Nice yeah, but do we really need an engine to lead us to this?  These to me appear to be fairly stock ideas, and White's win seems relatively evident in the diagram, though not, perhaps, precisely how to go about it.  Does g6 really rate a double exclam?  Exclams are cheap these days, I guess.

You could say in words very easily why White's position is much better than Black's.  I'm not trying to pose as a chess genius or anything.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #61 - 01/06/12 at 02:20:33
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Nice. Nd6!? and Ng3!! both win. It is from my own correspondence game where I was Unfortunately black. Sad
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #60 - 01/05/12 at 23:19:11
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Master Om wrote on 01/05/12 at 11:11:26:
Very nice analysis . You did a great Job in finding it. If you run any engine In IA they don't find it unattended.
what if black played 2...h5  ?

Thank you!
If 1.g6 fxg6 2.hxg6 h5 then 3.Ng3! b3 (3...hxg4? 4.Qf5 +-; 3...Rf8 4.Nxh5) 4.cxb3 axb3 5.a3 and so on.. Wink  Wink
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #59 - 01/05/12 at 11:11:26
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Very nice analysis . You did a great Job in finding it. If you run any engine In IA they don't find it unattended.
what if black played 2...h5  ?
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #58 - 01/05/12 at 08:24:52
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@ Master Om: Yes! Another great position. My engines were completely helpless until I started to "show" them how to attack. As a correspondence chess player I paid attention to 1.Nf6 and 1.g6 first. Some typical sicilian sacrifices. As soon as I moved 1.g6!! fxg6 2.hxg6 h6 3.Bxh6 Houdini started to wake up.  Wink Just a brief analysis here:

Edit: I'm not pretending my analysis is best. It's made for about 10 mins with Houdini as a helper on a poor computer. If I have to play this position in a correspondence chess game I'll do it better of course. And all because I don't trust engines in full.  Wink
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #57 - 01/05/12 at 01:23:47
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Vass wrote on 01/04/12 at 19:50:59:
Wow, Master Om! Your "modded" engines are monsters..  Shocked
Houdini 2.0c, Rybka 4.1 and alike (on my Win7/32 Dell Vostro) have to dig all day & night for such results.. It seems you have appropriate hardware, too.. Something like Topalov hired for preparation for his WC match against Anand.  Cheesy
Anyway, I'm sure you know that your "modded" engines are limited, too.. Some are good on tactics and some are not. It's real fun to watch how they play endgames without tablebases.  Grin I'm waiting for one of my opponents in a correspondence chess game to resign and I'll publish the endgame - same coloured bishops and four pawns each when a zugzwang is at stake (where tablebases are of little help). Then I'll give this to your 64bit engines on whatever hardware you may use (with tablebases", of course)... But with no solution!  Wink
And you'll promise me that you'll never move the pieces - just put your "robot power" to a test. Deal?  Cool



After lots of experimentation I now know what engines are better in what type of position. Most engines which have lots of settings can be tuned to find sacrifices. All of your fine examples were of King safety which most engine dont consider in default settings. So I change few parameters to make them king side attacker. The find those sacs immediately. But they must be again checked with top 3 engines for refutation and If any refutation is found then again they are fed to those engines to check the reality of the defense and so on. Most of the time I succeed than my opponent. Consider this position below. Its white to play and tell me who is winning.
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* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #56 - 01/04/12 at 23:18:08
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An amusing game, which reminds me of the position that David Norwood often flagged up as confusing the computers of the 1990s:
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=1319
* * * * * * * *
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Modern computers are generally capable of resisting 1.bxa5 (including all versions of Fritz from Fritz 8 onwards).  However, if you replace the b4-pawn with a bishop, most (possibly all) computers still cannot resist 1.Bxa5, missing 1...b4! (forced, or else 2.Bb4 restores the blockade) which still wins for Black.  Nakamura's game shows that computers still have some way to go before they fully "understand" blockades.  (I must admit that I quite enjoy messing about with chess engines).
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #55 - 01/04/12 at 21:16:03
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Vass wrote on 01/04/12 at 20:24:40:


This game was realy funny! Poor computer...
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #54 - 01/04/12 at 20:24:40
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #53 - 01/04/12 at 20:03:25
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Master Om wrote on 01/04/12 at 17:16:16:
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 11/03/11 at 13:41:46:
Thx, Vass! I'm amazed that the engines can't see that plan. But then, I've found that even now, Roman Dzindzichasvili's old (1990s) method of using pawn storms to crush engines still works in correspondence.


Sorry Engines actually see the plan. But your 2nd sentence is so true.

No, they don't. They don't know what plan is. Actually. They just "see" moves and evaluate..one after another. Till the end of the world..  Cry
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #52 - 01/04/12 at 19:55:59
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Dink Heckler wrote on 01/04/12 at 16:29:22:
I don't really understand the thrust of this thread; so computers aren't omniscient? Who knew?

We, human beings...who constructed them.  Wink
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #51 - 01/04/12 at 19:50:59
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Wow, Master Om! Your "modded" engines are monsters..  Shocked
Houdini 2.0c, Rybka 4.1 and alike (on my Win7/32 Dell Vostro) have to dig all day & night for such results.. It seems you have appropriate hardware, too.. Something like Topalov hired for preparation for his WC match against Anand.  Cheesy
Anyway, I'm sure you know that your "modded" engines are limited, too.. Some are good on tactics and some are not. It's real fun to watch how they play endgames without tablebases.  Grin I'm waiting for one of my opponents in a correspondence chess game to resign and I'll publish the endgame - same coloured bishops and four pawns each when a zugzwang is at stake (where tablebases are of little help). Then I'll give this to your 64bit engines on whatever hardware you may use (with tablebases", of course)... But with no solution!  Wink
And you'll promise me that you'll never move the pieces - just put your "robot power" to a test. Deal?  Cool
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #50 - 01/04/12 at 17:47:40
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Vass wrote on 11/15/11 at 11:13:44:
Engines good at tactics.. Really?

* * * * * * * *
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* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

If you're tired of looking at your engines' solutions 1.Kh1 (1.Kh2) or 1.f3 as the superior moves for white in this position...just try to wake up your beloved engine with 1.Bxh6!   Shocked Then after the obvious 1...gxh6 2.Qxh6 Ng6 (the knight on h4 was hanging badly) it usually starts counting on 3.Nf5  Roll Eyes  But enter 3.Re1! and...whoa, suddenly your machine is seeing everything.  Cheesy



My modded engines never sleep!!! Smiley


5: 1...Bxh6!!
r4rk1/5pp1/1pqpbn1p/p3p3/2P1P2n/P2BB1NP/1P1Q1PP1/R2R2K1 w - - 0 1

Analysis by Zappa Mexico II x64 Crazy:

1.Bxh6 Ng6 2.Bxg7 Kxg7 3.Qg5 Rg8 4.Bf1 Bxh3 5.gxh3 Nh7 6.Qf5
  +-  (1.80)   Depth: 9/35   00:00:00  1168kN
1.Bxh6 Ng6 2.Bxg7 Kxg7 3.Qg5 Rg8 4.Bf1 Bxh3 5.gxh3 Nh7 6.Qf5
  +-  (1.80)   Depth: 9/35   00:00:00  1177kN
1.Bxh6 Ng6 2.Bg5 Nd7 3.Nf5 Nc5 4.Qe3 a4
  +-  (1.74)   Depth: 10/35   00:00:00  2440kN
1.Bxh6 Ng6 2.Bg5 Nd7 3.Nf5 Nc5 4.Qe3
  +-  (1.74)   Depth: 10/35   00:00:00  2456kN
1.Bxh6 Ng6 2.Bg5 Nd7 3.Nf5 Nc5 4.Qe3 Nb3
  +-  (1.77)   Depth: 11/35   00:00:01  3150kN
1.Bxh6 Ng6 2.Bg5 Nd7 3.Nf5 Nc5 4.Qe3 Nb3
  +-  (1.77)   Depth: 11/35   00:00:01  3650kN
1.Bxh6 Ng6 2.Qg5 Nh7 3.Qc1 gxh6 4.Qxh6 Nf4 5.Rac1 a4
  +-  (1.83)   Depth: 12/38   00:00:01  5835kN
1.Bxh6 Ng6 2.Qg5 Nh7 3.Qc1 gxh6 4.Qxh6 Nf4 5.Rac1 a4
  +-  (1.83)   Depth: 12/38   00:00:02  8421kN
1.Bxh6 Ng6 2.Qg5 Nh7 3.Qc1 gxh6 4.Qxh6 Nf4 5.Ne2 Nxe2+ 6.Bxe2
  +-  (1.76)   Depth: 13/38   00:00:04  16178kN
1.Bxh6 Ng6 2.Qg5 Nh7 3.Qc1 gxh6 4.Qxh6 Nf4 5.Ne2 Nxe2+ 6.Bxe2
  +-  (1.76)   Depth: 13/38   00:00:05  21511kN
1.Bxh6 Ng6 2.Nf5 Nh5 3.Be2 Bxf5 4.exf5 Ngf4 5.Bf3 e4 6.Bxh5 e3 7.Bf3 Qxf3 8.Bxf4 Qxf4 9.Qxe3 Qxe3 10.fxe3
  +-  (2.04)   Depth: 14/47   00:00:12  53409kN
1.Bxh6 Ng6 2.Nf5 Nh5 3.Be2 Bxf5 4.exf5 Ngf4 5.Bf3 e4 6.Bxh5 e3 7.Bf3 Qxf3 8.Bxf4 Qxf4 9.Qxe3 Qxe3 10.fxe3
  +-  (2.04)   Depth: 14/47   00:00:13  54639kN
1.Bxh6 Ng6 2.Nf5 Nh5 3.Be2 Bxf5 4.exf5 Ngf4 5.Bf3 e4 6.Bxh5 e3 7.Bf3 Qxf3 8.Bxf4 Qxf4 9.Qxe3 Qxe3 10.fxe3
  +-  (2.04)   Depth: 15/47   00:00:16  68561kN
1.Bxh6 Ng6 2.Nf5 Nh5 3.Be2 Bxf5 4.exf5 Ngf4 5.Bf3 e4 6.Bxh5 e3 7.Bf3 Qxf3 8.Bxf4 Qxf4 9.Qxe3 Qxe3 10.fxe3
  +-  (2.04)   Depth: 15/47   00:00:16  70271kN
1.Bxh6 Ng6 2.Nf5 Bxf5 3.exf5 Nh4 4.f3 e4 5.fxe4 Qc5+ 6.Kh1 Nh7 7.Bf1 Rfd8 8.Qf4 Nxg2 9.Bxg2
  +-  (2.12)   Depth: 16/47   00:00:29  125mN
1.Bxh6 Ng6 2.Nf5 Bxf5 3.exf5 Nh4 4.f3 e4 5.fxe4 Qc5+ 6.Kh1 Nh7 7.Bf1 Rfd8 8.Qf4 Nxg2 9.Bxg2
  +-  (2.12)   Depth: 16/47   00:00:29  127mN

(Prakash, Bhubaneswar 04.01.2012)
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #49 - 01/04/12 at 17:41:13
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Vass wrote on 11/03/11 at 15:53:26:
And look at this one! Aronian - Volokitin:

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*
After the game Aronian makes the remark: Bxh6! with excellent play for white.
Just try to give this to Houdini!..  Cheesy
Never trust your engine!.. Trust your mind!..  Lips Sealed



I trust my modded engines more than my mind. Smiley


New game
rn3rk1/pp3pb1/1qp1p2p/8/2pPP1n1/2N2N2/PPQ2P2/R1B1K2R w KQ - 0 1

Analysis by Stockfish 2.2 JA 64bit:

16.e5 Qd8 17.Bg5 Qb6 18.Be7 Re8 19.Bc5
  +/=  (0.44)   Depth: 7/13   00:00:00  13kN
16.e5 Qd8 17.Bg5 Qb6 18.Be7 Re8 19.Bc5 Qd8 20.0-0-0
  +/-  (0.84)   Depth: 8/13   00:00:00  25kN
16.e5 Nd7 17.Rh4 f5 18.exf6 Ndxf6 19.Qg6 Rad8 20.Rxg4 Nxg4 21.Qxg4 Kh8 22.Bxh6 Bxh6 23.Qg6 Bf4 24.Qh5+ Kg7 25.Qg4+ Kh8 26.Qh5+
  =/+  (-0.28)   Depth: 9/16   00:00:00  44kN
16.e5 Nd7 17.Rh4 f5 18.exf6 Ndxf6 19.Qg6 Rad8 20.Rxg4 Nxg4 21.Qxg4 Kh8 22.Bxh6 Bxh6 23.Qg6 Bf4 24.Qh5+ Kg7 25.Qg4+ Kh8 26.Qh5+
  =/+  (-0.28)   Depth: 10/19   00:00:00  52kN
16.e5 Nd7 17.Rg1 f5 18.exf6 Ndxf6 19.Qg6 Rf7 20.Rb1 h5 21.Be3 Qa5 22.Ng5 Re7 23.Bf4 Qf5
  =/+  (-0.44)   Depth: 11/20   00:00:00  77kN
16.e5 Nd7 17.Rg1 f5 18.exf6 Ndxf6 19.Qg6 Rf7 20.Rb1 h5 21.Be3 Qa5 22.Ng5 Re7 23.Bf4 Qf5
  =/+  (-0.44)   Depth: 12/23   00:00:00  103kN
16.e5 Nd7 17.Rg1 f5 18.exf6 h5 19.Qg6 Rxf6 20.Qxh5 Rxf3 21.Rxg4 Rf7 22.Rg1 Nf6 23.Qg6 Kf8 24.Bf4 Qxb2 25.Bd6+ Ke8
  =/+  (-0.36)   Depth: 13/23   00:00:00  172kN
16.e5 Nd7 17.Rg1 f5 18.exf6 Ndxf6 19.Qg6 Rf7 20.Bd2 c5 21.Ne5 Nxe5 22.dxe5 Nd7 23.Qh5 Qxb2 24.Rb1 Qc2 25.Rxb7 Qd3 26.f4 Qd4 27.Ne2 Qd5 28.Rb1 Qe4 29.Rd1 Qh7 30.Qh3 Re8
  =/+  (-0.56)   Depth: 14/25   00:00:00  240kN
16.Bxh6 Bxh6 17.Rxh6 Nxh6 18.Qd2 Kg7 19.0-0-0 Rh8 20.Qg5+ Kf8 21.Qf6 Rg8 22.Qxh6+ Ke8 23.e5 Nd7 24.Ne4 Kd8 25.Qh4+ Kc8 26.Qe7 Qd8 27.Qxf7
  =/+  (-0.48)   Depth: 15/27   00:00:00  619kN
16.e5 Nd7 17.Rg1 f5 18.exf6 Ndxf6 19.Qg6 Rf7 20.Bd2 c5 21.Ne5 Nxe5 22.dxe5 Nd7 23.Qh5 Qxb2 24.Rb1 Qc2 25.Rxb7 Qd3 26.f4 Qd4 27.Ne2 Qd5 28.Rb1 Qe4 29.Rd1 Qh7 30.Qh3 Re8
  =/+  (-0.56)   Depth: 16/29   00:00:00  1039kN
16.Ne5 f5 17.Nxg4 fxg4 18.Bxh6 Qxd4 19.Be3 Qd3 20.Qxd3 cxd3 21.Kd2 Nd7 22.Kxd3 b6 23.Ke2 Ne5 24.Rad1 Rad8 25.Rxd8 Rxd8 26.Bg5 Rd7
  =/+  (-0.44)   Depth: 17/29   00:00:00  2602kN
16.Na4 Qc7 17.Rh4 f5 18.Qxc4 Re8 19.Nc3 Qf7 20.Bf4 Nd7 21.Qb4 Bf6 22.Rh3 fxe4 23.Nxe4 Be7 24.Qd2 Qg6 25.Qe2
  =/+  (-0.40)   Depth: 18/29   00:00:00  4179kN
16.Na4 Qc7 17.Rh4 f5 18.Qxc4 Re8 19.Nc5 Na6 20.exf5 Qf7 21.f6 Qxf6 22.Rxg4 Qxf3 23.Rg1 Nxc5 24.dxc5 Qf6 25.Qf4 Qxf4 26.Bxf4 Kf7 27.0-0-0 Rad8 28.b3 h5 29.Rxd8 Rxd8
  =/+  (-0.48)   Depth: 19/29   00:00:01  5534kN
16.Bxh6 Nxh6 17.Ke2 f6 18.Rag1 Kf7 19.Qc1 Nd7 20.Rxg7+ Kxg7 21.Qxh6+ Kf7 22.Qh7+ Ke8
  =/+  (-0.56 --)   Depth: 20/33   00:00:02  14880kN
16.Bxh6 Nxh6 17.Ke2 f6 18.Rag1 Kf7 19.Na4 Qb5 20.Nc3 Qb4 21.d5 e5 22.Qd2 Rg8 23.Rxg7+ Rxg7 24.Rxh6 Kg8 25.Nh4 Rh7 26.Rxf6 Nd7 27.Rg6+ Kf8 28.Nf5
  =/+  (-0.28)   Depth: 20/35   00:00:02  16748kN
16.Bxh6 Nxh6 17.Ke2 f6 18.Rag1 Kf7 19.e5 Nf5 20.Rh7 Nd7 21.exf6 Nxf6 22.Rgxg7+ Nxg7 23.Ng5+ Kg8 24.Qg6 Qxb2+ 25.Kd1 Qa1+ 26.Kc2
  =  (-0.20 ++)   Depth: 21/35   00:00:03  19539kN
16.Bxh6 Bxh6 17.Ke2 f5 18.Rag1 Rf6 19.Rxh6 Rxh6 20.exf5 exf5 21.Qxf5 Qxb2+ 22.Nd2 Rh4 23.Rxg4+ Rxg4 24.Qxg4+ Kh8 25.Qh5+ Kg7 26.Qg5+ Kh7 27.Qf5+ Kh6 28.Nce4
  =  (-0.12 ++)   Depth: 21/35   00:00:03  20000kN
16.Bxh6 Bxh6 17.Ke2 f5 18.Rag1 Rf6 19.Rxh6 Rxh6 20.exf5 exf5 21.Qxf5 Qxb2+ 22.Nd2 Rh4 23.Rxg4+ Rxg4 24.Qxg4+ Kh8 25.Qh5+ Kg7 26.Qg4+ Kh8
  =  (0.00 ++)   Depth: 21/36   00:00:03  20629kN
16.Bxh6 Nxh6 17.Ke2 f6 18.Rag1 Nf7 19.e5 f5 20.Rxg7+ Kxg7 21.Rg1+ Kh7 22.Rh1+ Kg8 23.Rg1+ Kh8 24.Rh1+ Kg8
  =  (0.00)   Depth: 21/36   00:00:03  23084kN
16.Bxh6 Nxh6 17.Ke2 f6 18.Rag1 Nf7 19.e5 f5 20.Rxg7+ Kxg7 21.Rg1+ Kh7 22.Rh1+ Kg8 23.Rg1+ Kh8 24.Rh1+ Kg8
  =  (0.00)   Depth: 22/36   00:00:04  28000kN
16.Bxh6 Nxh6 17.Ke2 f6 18.Rag1 Nf7 19.e5 f5 20.Qc1 a5 21.Na4
  =  (0.08 ++)   Depth: 23/36   00:00:05  32470kN
16.Bxh6 Bxh6 17.Ke2 f5 18.Rag1 Rf6 19.Rxh6 Rxh6 20.exf5 exf5 21.Qxf5 Qxb2+ 22.Nd2 Rh4 23.Rxg4+ Rxg4 24.Qxg4+ Kf8 25.Qf5+ Ke7 26.Nce4 Qxd4 27.Qh7+ Kf8 28.Qxb7 Qd3+ 29.Ke1 c3 30.Qxa8 cxd2+ 31.Nxd2
  =  (0.16 ++)   Depth: 23/36   00:00:05  34264kN
16.Bxh6 Nxh6 17.Ke2 f6 18.Rag1 Nf7 19.e5 f5 20.Qc1 a5 21.Na4
  +/=  (0.28 ++)   Depth: 23/53   00:00:05  37599kN
16.Bxh6 Bxd4 17.Nxd4 Qxd4 18.Bxf8 Kxf8 19.Qd2 Qxd2+ 20.Kxd2 Nxf2 21.Rh8+ Ke7 22.b3 b5 23.Rf1
  +/=  (0.46 ++)   Depth: 23/53   00:00:06  42495kN
16.Bxh6 Nxh6 17.Ke2 f6 18.Rag1 Kf7 19.e5 Nf5 20.Rh7 Rg8 21.exf6 Kxf6 22.Na4 Qxd4 23.Rd1 Qf4 24.Nc5 Kf7
  =  (-0.08 --)   Depth: 23/53   00:00:07  51443kN
16.Bxh6 Nxh6 17.Ke2 f6 18.Rag1 Kf7 19.e5 Nf5 20.Rh7 Rg8 21.exf6 Kxf6 22.Na4 Qxd4 23.Rd1 Qf4 24.Nc5 Kf7
  =/+  (-0.48 --)   Depth: 23/53   00:00:08  57978kN
16.Bxh6 Nxh6 17.Ke2 f6 18.Rag1 Kf7 19.e5 Nf5 20.Rh7 Rg8 21.exf6 Kxf6 22.Ne4+ Ke7 23.Nc5 Qd8 24.Rg6 Nxd4+ 25.Nxd4 Qxd4 26.Rxe6+ Kd8 27.Rd6+
  +/-  (0.73 ++)   Depth: 23/53   00:00:08  59483kN
16.Bxh6 Nxh6 17.Ke2 f6 18.Rag1 Kf7 19.e5 Nf5 20.Rh7 Rg8 21.exf6 Nd7 22.fxg7 Nf6 23.Rh3 Rxg7 24.Ne5+ Kf8 25.Rh8+ Ng8 26.Kf1 Qxd4 27.Qe2 Rd8 28.Rxg7 Kxg7 29.Rh1 Nf6 30.Rg1+ Kf8 31.Ng6+ Kf7 32.Ne5+ Kf8
  =  (0.00)   Depth: 23/53   00:00:14  96623kN
16.Bxh6 Nxh6 17.Ke2 f6 18.Rag1 Kf7 19.e5 Nf5 20.Rh7 Rg8 21.exf6 Nd7 22.fxg7 Nf6 23.Rh3 Rxg7 24.Ne5+ Kf8 25.Rh8+ Ng8 26.Kf1 Qxd4 27.Qe2 Rd8 28.Rxg7 Kxg7 29.Rh1 Nf6 30.Rg1+ Kf8 31.Ng6+ Kf7 32.Ne5+ Kf8
  =  (0.00)   Depth: 24/53   00:00:15  105mN
16.Bxh6 Nxh6 17.Ke2 f6 18.Rag1 Kf7 19.e5 Nf5 20.Rh7 Rg8 21.exf6 Nd7 22.Rgxg7+ Rxg7 23.fxg7 Nf6 24.Ng5+ Kg8 25.Rh8+ Kxg7 26.Nxe6+ Kxh8 27.Qxf5 Qxb2+ 28.Kd1 Qa1+ 29.Kc2
  =  (0.08 ++)   Depth: 25/53   00:00:16  113mN
16.Bxh6 Bxh6 17.Ke2 c5 18.Rag1 f5 19.Rxh6 cxd4 20.Qd2 d3+ 21.Kf1 Rf7 22.exf5 Rg7 23.f6
  =  (0.16 ++)   Depth: 25/53   00:00:17  119mN
16.Bxh6 Nxh6 17.Ke2 f6 18.Rag1 Nf7 19.e5 f5 20.Qc1 Rd8 21.Na4 Qc7 22.Nc5 Re8 23.Rg6 Nd8 24.Ng5
  +/=  (0.28 ++)   Depth: 25/53   00:00:17  124mN
16.Bxh6 Nxh6 17.Ke2 f6 18.Rag1 Nf7 19.e5 f5 20.Qc1 Rd8 21.Na4 Qc7 22.Nc5 Re8 23.Rg6 Nd8 24.Ng5
  +/=  (0.46 ++)   Depth: 25/53   00:00:18  131mN
16.Bxh6 Bxh6 17.Ke2 f5 18.Rag1 Kf7 19.exf5 exf5 20.Qxf5+ Ke8 21.Qb1 Nxf2 22.Rxh6 Nd3 23.Rg7 Qxb2+ 24.Qxb2 Nxb2 25.Rxb7 Nd3 26.Rhh7
  +/-  (0.73 ++)   Depth: 25/53   00:00:21  151mN
16.Bxh6 Nxh6 17.Ke2 f6 18.Rag1 Kf7 19.e5 Nd7 20.Ne4 Rg8 21.exf6 Nxf6 22.Ne5+ Ke7 23.Nxf6 Qxd4 24.Nxg8+ Rxg8 25.Nxc4 Nf5 26.Kf1 Rd8 27.Qe2 b5 28.Na5 Rd6 29.Rh7 Qd1+ 30.Qxd1 Rxd1+ 31.Kg2 Rxg1+ 32.Kxg1 Kd6 33.b4
  +/-  (0.84)   Depth: 25/53   00:00:27  192mN
16.Bxh6 Nxh6 17.Ke2 f6 18.Rag1 Kf7 19.e5 Nd7 20.Ne4 Rg8 21.exf6 Bxf6 22.Nfg5+ Bxg5 23.Nxg5+ Ke7 24.Rxh6 Nf6 25.Qxc4 Qxb2+ 26.Kd3 Qb5
  +/-  (0.76 --)   Depth: 26/53   00:00:30  219mN
16.Bxh6 Nxh6 17.Ke2 f6 18.Rag1 Kf7 19.e5 Nd7 20.Ne4 Rg8 21.exf6 Bxf6 22.Nfg5+ Bxg5 23.Nxg5+ Ke7 24.Rxh6 Nf6 25.Qxc4 Qxb2+ 26.Ke3 Nd5+ 27.Kf3 Raf8+
  +/=  (0.68 --)   Depth: 26/53   00:00:31  224mN
16.Bxh6 Nxh6 17.Ke2 f6 18.Rag1 Kf7 19.e5 Nd7 20.Ne4 Rg8 21.exf6 Bxf6 22.Nfg5+ Bxg5 23.Nxg5+ Ke7 24.Rxh6 Nf8 25.Qxc4 Qxb2+
  +/=  (0.56 --)   Depth: 26/53   00:00:32  228mN
16.Bxh6 Nxh6 17.Ke2 f6 18.Rag1 Kf7 19.e5 Nd7 20.Ne4 Rg8 21.exf6 Bxf6 22.Nfg5+ Bxg5 23.Nxg5+ Ke7 24.Rxh6 Nf8 25.Ke3 Kd7 26.Rh7+ Ke8 27.f4 Qb4 28.a3 Qb6 29.Rh2 Qb3+ 30.Qxb3 cxb3 31.Ke4 Kd7 32.Rg3 Ng6
  +/=  (0.56)   Depth: 26/53   00:00:35  250mN
16.Bxh6 Nxh6 17.Ke2 f6 18.Rag1 Kf7 19.e5 Nd7 20.Ne4 Rg8 21.exf6 Bxf6 22.Nfg5+ Bxg5 23.Nxg5+ Ke7 24.Rxh6 Nf8 25.Ke3 Kd7 26.Rh7+ Ke8 27.f4 Qb4 28.a3 Qb6 29.Rh2 Qb3+ 30.Qxb3 cxb3 31.Ke4 Kd7 32.Rg3 Ng6
  +/=  (0.56)   Depth: 27/53   00:00:37  269mN
16.Bxh6 Nxh6 17.Ke2 f6 18.Rag1 Kf7 19.e5 Nd7 20.Ne4 fxe5 21.Nd6+
  +/=  (0.48 --)   Depth: 28/53   00:00:51  374mN

(Prakash, Bhubaneswar 04.01.2012)



New game
rn3rk1/pp3pb1/1qp1p2p/8/2pPP1n1/2N2N2/PPQ2P2/R1B1K2R w KQ - 0 1

Analysis by Rybka WinFinder 2.2 mp:

16.Rg1 h5 17.Ne2
  =/+  (-0.41)   Depth: 7   00:00:00  120kN
16.Rg1 h5 17.e5 Rd8
  =/+  (-0.34)   Depth: 8   00:00:00  213kN
16.Rg1 h5 17.e5 Rd8 18.Na4
  =/+  (-0.27)   Depth: 9   00:00:00  338kN
16.Rg1 h5 17.e5 Rd8 18.Na4 Qb5
  =/+  (-0.34)   Depth: 10   00:00:00  615kN
16.Rg1 h5 17.e5 f5 18.Qe2 c5 19.Be3
  =/+  (-0.27)   Depth: 11   00:00:01  1235kN
16.Rg1 h5 17.e5 f5 18.Qe2 c5 19.Be3 Nxe3
  =  (-0.20)   Depth: 12   00:00:02  2056kN
16.Rg1 h5 17.e5 f5 18.Qe2 c5 19.Be3 Nxe3 20.fxe3 cxd4
  =  (-0.20)   Depth: 13   00:00:03  3737kN
16.Rg1 h5 17.e5 f5 18.Qe2 c5 19.Be3 Nxe3 20.fxe3 cxd4 21.exd4 Na6
  =/+  (-0.34)   Depth: 14   00:00:07  7105kN
16.Bxh6
  =/+  (-0.30)   Depth: 14   00:00:15  7105kN
16.Bxh6
  =/+  (-0.34)   Depth: 14   00:00:16  7105kN
16.Bxh6
  =/+  (-0.34)   Depth: 14   00:00:17  7105kN
16.Bxh6
  =/+  (-0.34)   Depth: 14   00:00:20  7105kN
16.Bxh6 Bxh6 17.Ke2 f5 18.Rag1 Bg7 19.exf5 exf5 20.Rxg4 fxg4 21.Qh7+ Kf7 22.Ne5+ Ke8
  =  (-0.20)   Depth: 14   00:00:26  26985kN
16.Bxh6 Bxh6 17.Ke2 f5 18.Rag1 Bg7 19.exf5 exf5 20.Rxg4 fxg4 21.Qh7+ Kf7 22.Ne5+ Ke8
  =  (0.13)   Depth: 15   00:00:41  40448kN

(Prakash, Bhubaneswar 04.01.2012)
  
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Master Om
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #48 - 01/04/12 at 17:16:16
Post Tools
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 11/03/11 at 13:41:46:
Thx, Vass! I'm amazed that the engines can't see that plan. But then, I've found that even now, Roman Dzindzichasvili's old (1990s) method of using pawn storms to crush engines still works in correspondence.


Sorry Engines actually see the plan. But your 2nd sentence is so true.
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #47 - 01/04/12 at 17:12:26
Post Tools
Vass wrote on 11/03/11 at 12:01:04:
As correspondence chess players know...the engines are far from perfection. One may look at this position with Houdini, Rybka or whatever and never find the win for black (position taken from a correspondence chess game):
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

Then try to think yourself, analyze a bit...and you'll see:
1... g3! 2. h3 Bxh3! 3. gxh3 g2 4. Rfc1 Qh4-+  Cool
They use to to say correspondence chess is dead. Yes, it's dead...when relying only on machines.  Wink


Never draw conclusions without analysing properly. As I said You need to know what and How to use engines.


3: 1...g3!!
r5rk/1ppb1p1p/1n1p1q2/3Pb3/1PPNPpp1/3Q1P2/2B1N1PP/1R3RK1 b - - 0 1

Analysis by SPARK-1.0-win64-mp-corei TA:

1...Ra2 2.Nf5
  -+  (-6.38 ++)   Depth: 7/9   00:00:00  36kN
1...Ra2 2.Nf5
  -+  (-6.63 ++)   Depth: 7/9   00:00:00  40kN
1...Ra2 2.fxg4 Rxg4 3.Nf5 Bxf5 4.exf5 Qh4 5.Rf2
  -+  (-6.73)   Depth: 7/9   00:00:00  49kN
1...Ra2 2.fxg4 Rxg4 3.Nf5 Bxf5 4.exf5 Qh4 5.Rf2
  -+  (-6.48 --)   Depth: 8/12   00:00:00  67kN
1...Ra2 2.fxg4 Rxg4 3.Nf5 Bxf5 4.exf5 Qh4 5.Rf2
  -+  (-6.23 --)   Depth: 8/14   00:00:00  109kN
1...g3 2.h3 Bxh3 3.gxh3 g2 4.Rfc1 Qh4 5.Ra1 Rxa1 6.Rxa1 Qxh3
  -+  (-6.39)   Depth: 8/14   00:00:00  134kN
1...g3 2.h3 Bxh3 3.gxh3 g2 4.Rfc1 Qh4 5.Ra1 Rxa1 6.Rxa1 Qxh3
  -+  (-6.39)   Depth: 9/14   00:00:00  137kN
1...g3 2.h3 Bxh3 3.gxh3 g2 4.Rfc1 Qh4 5.Ra1 Rxa1 6.Rxa1 Qxh3
  -+  (-6.39)   Depth: 10/18   00:00:00  227kN
1...g3 2.h3
  -+  (-6.64 ++)   Depth: 11/19   00:00:00  369kN
1...g3 2.h3 Bxh3 3.gxh3 g2 4.Rf2 Qh4 5.Rxg2 Qxh3 6.Rg4 Ra2 7.Rxg8+ Kxg8
  -+  (-6.84)   Depth: 11/19   00:00:00  377kN
1...g3 2.h3
  -+  (-7.09 ++)   Depth: 12/26   00:00:00  1154kN
1...g3 2.h3 Bxh3 3.gxh3 g2 4.Rfd1 Qh4 5.c5 Nd7 6.cxd6 cxd6 7.Nf5 Qxh3
  -+  (-6.71)   Depth: 12/26   00:00:00  1175kN
1...g3 2.h3
  -+  (-6.96 ++)   Depth: 13/26   00:00:00  2029kN
1...g3 2.h3 Bxh3 3.gxh3 g2 4.Rfd1 Qh4 5.c5 Nc8 6.Nf5 Qxh3 7.Rd2 dxc5 8.bxc5 Qh1+ 9.Kf2
  -+  (-6.56)   Depth: 13/26   00:00:00  2066kN
1...g3 2.h3
  -+  (-6.81 ++)   Depth: 14/28   00:00:00  3807kN
1...g3 2.h3
  -+  (-7.06 ++)   Depth: 14/28   00:00:00  3966kN
1...g3 2.h3 Bxh3 3.gxh3 g2 4.Rfd1 Qh4 5.c5 Nd7 6.Qb3 Qxh3 7.Nf5 b6 8.cxd6 cxd6
  -+  (-6.80)   Depth: 14/28   00:00:00  4016kN
1...g3 2.h3 Bxh3 3.gxh3 g2 4.Rfd1 Qh4 5.c5 Nd7 6.Qb3 Qxh3 7.Nf5 b6 8.cxd6 cxd6
  -+  (-6.55 --)   Depth: 15/34   00:00:00  6936kN
1...g3 2.h3 Bxh3 3.gxh3 g2 4.Rfd1 Qh4 5.c5 Nd7 6.Qb3 Qxh3 7.Nf5 b6 8.cxd6 cxd6
  -+  (-6.30 --)   Depth: 15/36   00:00:01  15261kN
1...g3 2.h3
  -+  (-7.05 ++)   Depth: 15/36   00:00:02  22626kN
1...g3 2.h3
  -+  (-7.30 ++)   Depth: 15/36   00:00:02  26544kN
1...g3 2.h3 Bxh3 3.gxh3 g2 4.Rfd1 Qh4 5.c5 Nd7 6.Nf5 Qxh3 7.cxd6 cxd6 8.Qb3 b6 9.Rbc1 Qh1+ 10.Kf2
  -+  (-7.42)   Depth: 15/36   00:00:02  27335kN
1...g3 2.h3
  -+  (-7.67 ++)   Depth: 16/36   00:00:02  29504kN
1...g3 2.h3 Bxh3 3.gxh3 g2 4.Rfd1 Qh4 5.c5 Nd7 6.c6 bxc6 7.Nxc6 Qxh3 8.Ne7 Qh1+ 9.Kf2 Qh4+ 10.Kg1 Rg5 11.Nf5 Qh1+ 12.Kf2
  -+  (-7.47)   Depth: 16/36   00:00:02  29766kN
1...g3 2.h3 Bxh3 3.gxh3 g2 4.Rfd1 Qh4 5.c5 Nd7 6.c6 bxc6 7.Nxc6 Qxh3 8.Ne7 Qh1+ 9.Kf2 Qh4+ 10.Kg1 Rg5 11.Nf5 Qh1+ 12.Kf2
  -+  (-7.22 --)   Depth: 17/40   00:00:03  40826kN
1...g3 2.h3 Bxh3 3.gxh3 g2 4.Rfd1 Qh4 5.c5 Nd7 6.c6 bxc6 7.Nxc6 Qxh3 8.Ne7 Qh1+ 9.Kf2 Qh4+ 10.Kg1 Rg5 11.Nf5 Qh1+ 12.Kf2
  -+  (-6.97 --)   Depth: 17/40   00:00:04  64726kN
1...g3 2.h3 Bxh3 3.gxh3 g2 4.Rfd1 Qh4 5.c5 Nd7 6.c6 bxc6 7.Nxc6 Qxh3 8.Ne7 Qh1+ 9.Kf2 Qh4+ 10.Kg1 Rg5 11.Nf5 Qh1+ 12.Kf2
  -+  (-5.97 --)   Depth: 17/43   00:00:05  86180kN
1...g3 2.h3 Bxh3 3.gxh3 g2 4.Rfd1 Qh4 5.Nf5 Qxh3 6.Kf2 Ra2 7.Ng1 Qh1 8.Ke2 Na4 9.Rb3 b5 10.Re1
  -+  (-5.40)   Depth: 17/46   00:00:10  157mN

(Prakash, Bhubaneswar 04.01.2012)



3: 1...g3!!
r5rk/1ppb1p1p/1n1p1q2/3Pb3/1PPNPpp1/3Q1P2/2B1N1PP/1R3RK1 b - - 0 1

Analysis by Stockfish 2.2 JA 64bit:

1...Qg7 2.g3 gxf3 3.Rxf3 fxg3 4.hxg3 Bg4 5.Rf2 Nd7
  -+  (-1.61)   Depth: 7/7   00:00:00  3kN
1...Qg7 2.g3 gxf3 3.Rxf3 fxg3 4.hxg3 Bg4 5.Rf2 Nd7
  -+  (-1.61)   Depth: 8/7   00:00:00  4kN
1...Qg7 2.fxg4 Bxg4 3.Rf2 f3 4.Nxf3 Bxf3 5.Qxf3 Nxc4 6.g3 Nd2 7.Qxf7 Nxb1 8.Bxb1 Qh6 9.Qxc7 Raf8 10.Qxb7 Qe3
  -/+  (-1.33)   Depth: 9/12   00:00:00  15kN
1...g3 2.h3 Bxh3 3.gxh3 g2 4.Rfd1 Qh4 5.c5 dxc5 6.bxc5 Qxh3 7.cxb6 Qh1+ 8.Kf2 g1B+ 9.Rxg1 Rxg1 10.Nxg1
  -+  (-1.57)   Depth: 10/18   00:00:00  62kN
1...Qg7 2.fxg4 Bxg4 3.Rf2 Nxc4 4.Qxc4 f3 5.Qd3 fxe2 6.Nxe2 Bxe2 7.Rxe2 Qh6 8.g3 Qh3 9.Rg2 Rg7 10.g4 Qxd3 11.Bxd3 Bd4+ 12.Kf1 Rgg8 13.Ke1
  -+  (-2.02)   Depth: 11/21   00:00:00  99kN
1...Qg7 2.fxg4 Bxg4 3.Rf2 Nxc4 4.Qxc4 f3 5.Nf5 Bxf5 6.exf5 fxe2 7.Rxe2 Ra3 8.Bb3
  -+  (-1.81)   Depth: 12/21   00:00:00  135kN
1...Qg7 2.fxg4 Bxg4 3.Rf2 Nxc4 4.Qxc4 f3 5.Qd3 fxe2 6.Nxe2 Bh5 7.g3 Bxe2 8.Rxe2 Bd4+ 9.Kg2 Rab8 10.h3
  -+  (-1.77)   Depth: 13/22   00:00:00  193kN
1...Qg7 2.g3 Qh6 3.c5 gxf3 4.Rxf3 fxg3 5.hxg3 Nc8 6.Qe3 Qh4 7.Nf5 Bxf5 8.exf5 Ne7 9.Rd1 Qh3 10.cxd6 cxd6 11.Nf4 Bxf4 12.Qxf4
  -+  (-1.61)   Depth: 14/25   00:00:00  389kN
1...g3 2.h3 Bxh3 3.gxh3 g2 4.Rfd1 Qh4 5.c5 dxc5 6.bxc5 Nd7 7.c6 bxc6 8.dxc6 Nf6 9.Nf5 Qxh3 10.Kf2 Bd6 11.Nxd6 Qh4+ 12.Kg1 cxd6 13.Nxf4 Qxf4
  -+  (-1.77)   Depth: 15/26   00:00:00  527kN
1...g3 2.h3 Bxh3 3.gxh3 g2 4.Rfd1 Qh4 5.c5 Nd7 6.Nf5 Qxh3 7.Kf2 dxc5 8.Ng1 Qh5 9.Ke1 cxb4 10.Rxb4 Qh2 11.Kd2 Nc5 12.Qc4
  -+  (-1.77)   Depth: 16/29   00:00:00  627kN
1...g3 2.h3 Bxh3 3.gxh3 g2 4.Rfd1 Qh4 5.c5 dxc5 6.bxc5 Nd7 7.c6 bxc6 8.dxc6 Nf6 9.Nf5 Qxh3 10.Kf2 g1Q+ 11.Rxg1 Qh2+ 12.Ke1 Rxg1+ 13.Nxg1 Qxg1+ 14.Qf1 Bc3+ 15.Ke2 Qc5 16.Qg2 Rg8 17.Rb8
  -+  (-3.11)   Depth: 17/32   00:00:00  1224kN
1...g3 2.h3 Bxh3 3.gxh3 g2 4.Rfd1 Qh4 5.c5 dxc5 6.bxc5 Nd7 7.c6 bxc6 8.dxc6 Nf6 9.Nf5 Qxh3 10.Kf2 g1Q+ 11.Rxg1 Qh2+ 12.Ke1 Rxg1+ 13.Nxg1 Qxg1+ 14.Qf1 Bc3+ 15.Ke2 Qc5 16.Qg2 Qc4+ 17.Kd1 Rd8+ 18.Kc1 Nh5 19.Rb3 Ng3 20.Nh6 Bg7 21.Nf5 Nxf5 22.exf5 Qxc6
  -+  (-2.42)   Depth: 18/40   00:00:00  1600kN
1...g3 2.h3 Bxh3 3.gxh3 g2 4.Rfd1 Qh4 5.c5 dxc5 6.bxc5 Nd7 7.c6 bxc6 8.dxc6 Nf6 9.Nf5 Qxh3 10.Kf2 g1B+ 11.Rxg1 Qh2+ 12.Ke1 Rxg1+ 13.Nxg1 Qxg1+ 14.Qf1 Bc3+ 15.Ke2 Qc5 16.Qg2 Qc4+ 17.Kd1 Rd8+ 18.Kc1 Nh5 19.Rb3 Ng3 20.Nxg3 fxg3 21.Qxg3 Qxc6
  -+  (-2.58)   Depth: 19/41   00:00:00  1806kN
1...g3 2.h3 Bxh3 3.gxh3 g2 4.Rfd1 Qh4 5.c5 dxc5 6.bxc5 Nd7 7.c6 bxc6 8.dxc6 Nf6 9.Nf5 Qxh3 10.Kf2 g1B+ 11.Rxg1 Qh2+ 12.Ke1 Rxg1+ 13.Nxg1 Qxg1+ 14.Qf1 Bc3+ 15.Ke2 Qc5 16.Qg2 Nh5 17.Kf1 Ng3+ 18.Nxg3 fxg3 19.Qxg3 Rg8 20.Qf2
  -+  (-2.58)   Depth: 20/41   00:00:00  2034kN
1...g3 2.h3 Bxh3 3.gxh3 g2 4.Rfd1 Qh4 5.c5 dxc5 6.bxc5 Nd7 7.c6 bxc6 8.dxc6 Nf6 9.Nf5 Qxh3 10.Kf2 g1B+ 11.Rxg1 Qh2+ 12.Ke1 Rxg1+ 13.Nxg1 Qxg1+ 14.Qf1 Bc3+ 15.Ke2 Qc5 16.Qg2 Qc4+ 17.Kd1 Rd8+ 18.Kc1 Nh5 19.Rb3 Ng3 20.Nxg3 fxg3 21.Qxg3 Qxc6
  -+  (-2.42)   Depth: 21/45   00:00:00  2831kN
1...g3 2.h3 Bxh3 3.gxh3 g2 4.Rfd1 Qh4 5.c5 dxc5 6.bxc5 Nd7 7.c6 bxc6 8.dxc6 Nf6 9.Nf5 Qxh3 10.Kf2 g1B+ 11.Rxg1 Qh2+ 12.Ke1 Rxg1+ 13.Nxg1 Qxg1+ 14.Qf1 Bc3+ 15.Ke2 Qc5 16.Qg2 Qc4+ 17.Kd1 Rd8+ 18.Kc1 Nh5 19.Rb3 Ng3 20.Nxg3 fxg3 21.Qxg3 Qf1+
  -+  (-2.58)   Depth: 22/45   00:00:00  3549kN
1...g3 2.h3 Bxh3 3.gxh3 g2 4.Rfd1 Qh4 5.c5 dxc5 6.bxc5 Nd7 7.c6 bxc6 8.dxc6 Nf6 9.Nf5 Qxh3 10.Kf2 g1B+ 11.Rxg1 Qh2+ 12.Ke1 Rxg1+ 13.Nxg1 Qxg1+ 14.Qf1 Bc3+ 15.Ke2 Qh2+ 16.Qf2 Qh3 17.Qg1 Nh5 18.Bb3
  -+  (-3.07)   Depth: 23/45   00:00:01  5858kN
1...g3 2.h3 Bxh3 3.gxh3 g2 4.Rfd1 Qh4 5.c5 dxc5 6.bxc5 Nd7 7.c6 bxc6 8.dxc6 Nf6 9.Nf5 Qxh3 10.Kf2 g1B+ 11.Rxg1 Qh2+ 12.Ke1 Rxg1+ 13.Nxg1 Qxg1+ 14.Qf1 Bc3+ 15.Ke2 Qc5 16.Qg2 Qc4+ 17.Kd1 Rd8+ 18.Kc1 Nh5 19.Rb3 Ng3 20.Nh6 Bg7 21.Nf5 Nxf5 22.exf5 Qd4
  -+  (-3.51)   Depth: 24/47   00:00:01  11302kN
1...g3 2.h3 Bxh3 3.gxh3 g2 4.Rfd1 Qh4 5.c5 dxc5 6.bxc5 Nd7 7.c6 bxc6 8.dxc6 Nf6 9.Nf5 Qxh3 10.Kf2 g1B+ 11.Rxg1 Qh2+ 12.Ke1 Rxg1+ 13.Nxg1 Qxg1+ 14.Qf1 Bc3+ 15.Ke2 Qc5 16.Qg2 Qc4+ 17.Kd1 Rd8+ 18.Kc1 Nh5 19.Rb3 Ng3 20.Nh6 Bg7 21.Nf5 Nxf5 22.exf5 Qd4
  -+  (-3.51)   Depth: 25/48   00:00:02  17735kN
1...g3 2.h3 Bxh3 3.gxh3 g2 4.Rfd1 Qh4 5.c5 dxc5 6.bxc5 Nd7 7.c6 bxc6 8.dxc6 Nf6 9.Nf5 Qxh3 10.Kf2 g1B+ 11.Rxg1 Qh2+ 12.Ke1 Rxg1+ 13.Nxg1 Qxg1+ 14.Qf1 Bc3+ 15.Ke2 Qc5 16.Qg2 Qc4+ 17.Kd1 Rd8+ 18.Kc1 Nh5 19.Rb3 Ng3 20.Nh6 Bg7 21.Nf5 Nxf5 22.exf5 Qd4
  -+  (-3.59 ++)   Depth: 26/48   00:00:03  24319kN
1...g3 2.h3 Bxh3 3.Nf5 Bxf5 4.exf5 Qh6 5.Rfe1 Ra3 6.Rb3 Qh2+ 7.Kf1 Ra2 8.Ng1 Rxc2 9.Qxc2 Bd4
  -+  (-3.67 ++)   Depth: 26/48   00:00:06  38632kN
1...g3 2.h3 Bxh3 3.gxh3 g2 4.Rfd1 Qh4 5.c5 dxc5 6.bxc5 Nd7 7.c6 bxc6 8.dxc6 Nf6 9.Nf5 Qxh3 10.Kf2 g1B+ 11.Rxg1 Qh2+ 12.Ke1 Rxg1+ 13.Nxg1 Qxg1+ 14.Kd2 Qf2+ 15.Kc1 h5 16.Rb5 Ra1+ 17.Bb1 Qe1+ 18.Kc2 Kh7 19.Qd2 Qg1 20.Qd1 Qf2+ 21.Kc1 Ra5
  -+  (-3.51)   Depth: 26/48   00:00:07  46036kN
1...g3 2.h3 Bxh3 3.gxh3 g2 4.Rfd1 Qh4 5.c5 dxc5 6.bxc5 Nd7 7.c6 bxc6 8.dxc6 Nf6 9.Nf5 Qxh3 10.Kf2 g1Q+ 11.Rxg1 Qh2+ 12.Ke1 Rxg1+
  -+  (-3.59 ++)   Depth: 27/48   00:00:09  61269kN
1...g3 2.h3 Bxh3 3.gxh3 g2 4.Rfd1 Qh4 5.Nf5 Qxh3 6.Kf2 g1B+ 7.Rxg1 Qh2+ 8.Ke1 Rxg1+ 9.Nxg1 Qxg1+ 10.Qf1 Qxf1+ 11.Kxf1 Nxc4 12.Rd1 Bc3 13.Ke2 Ne5
  -+  (-3.43 --)   Depth: 27/48   00:00:10  69662kN
1...g3 2.h3 Bxh3 3.gxh3 g2 4.Rfd1 Qh4 5.Nf5 Qxh3 6.Kf2 g1B+ 7.Rxg1 Qh2+ 8.Ke1 Rxg1+ 9.Nxg1 Qxg1+ 10.Qf1 Qh2 11.Qf2 Bc3+ 12.Ke2 Qxf2+ 13.Kxf2 Ra2 14.Rc1 Bxb4 15.Kg1 Bd2 16.Bb3 Rb2 17.Rc2 Rxb3 18.Rxd2 Nxc4 19.Rc2
  -+  (-3.31 --)   Depth: 27/48   00:00:11  74863kN
1...g3 2.h3 Bxh3 3.gxh3 g2 4.Rfd1 Qh4 5.Nf5 Qxh3 6.Kf2 Qh2 7.Rg1
  -+  (-3.13 --)   Depth: 27/48   00:00:12  81089kN
1...g3 2.h3 Bxh3 3.gxh3 g2 4.Rfd1 Qh4 5.Nf5 Qxh3 6.Kf2 g1N 7.Rxg1 Qh2+ 8.Ke1 Rxg1+ 9.Nxg1 Qxg1+ 10.Qf1 Bc3+ 11.Ke2 Qh2+ 12.Qf2 Qxf2+ 13.Kxf2 Ra2 14.Rc1 Bxb4 15.Kg1 Ba3 16.Bb3 Bc5+ 17.Kh1 Rf2 18.Rb1 Rxf3 19.Bd1 Rf1+ 20.Kg2 Rg1+ 21.Kf3 Be3 22.Nxe3 fxe3 23.Kxe3 Nxc4+ 24.Kf2 Rh1 25.Ra1 Kg7 26.Ra4 Rxd1 27.Rxc4
  -+  (-3.43)   Depth: 27/63   00:00:13  91302kN
1...g3 2.h3 Bxh3 3.gxh3 g2 4.Rfd1 Qh4 5.Nf5 Qxh3 6.Kf2 g1N 7.Rxg1 Qh2+ 8.Ke1 Rxg1+ 9.Nxg1 Qxg1+ 10.Qf1 Bc3+ 11.Ke2 Qh2+ 12.Qf2 Qxf2+ 13.Kxf2 Ra2 14.Rc1 Bxb4 15.Kg1 Ba3 16.Bb3 Bc5+ 17.Kh1 Rf2 18.Rb1 Rxf3 19.Bd1 Rf2 20.Bh5
  -+  (-3.51 ++)   Depth: 28/63   00:00:16  109mN
1...g3 2.h3 Bxh3 3.gxh3 g2 4.Rfd1 Qh4 5.Nf5 Qxh3 6.Kf2 g1B+ 7.Rxg1 Qh2+ 8.Ke1 Rxg1+ 9.Nxg1 Qxg1+ 10.Qf1 Bc3+ 11.Ke2 Qh2+ 12.Qf2 Qxf2+ 13.Kxf2 Ra2 14.Rc1 Bxb4 15.Kg1 Ba3 16.Bb3 Bc5+ 17.Kh1 Rf2 18.Rb1 Rxf3 19.Bd1 Rf2 20.Bh5
  -+  (-3.35 --)   Depth: 28/63   00:00:18  120mN
1...g3 2.h3 Bxh3 3.gxh3 g2 4.Rfd1 Qh4 5.Nf5 Qxh3 6.Kf2 g1B+ 7.Rxg1 Qh2+ 8.Ke1 Rxg1+ 9.Nxg1 Qxg1+ 10.Qf1 Bc3+ 11.Ke2 Qh2+ 12.Qf2 Qxf2+ 13.Kxf2 Ra2 14.Rc1 Bxb4 15.Kg1 Ba3 16.Bb3 Bc5+ 17.Kh1 Rf2 18.Rc3 h5 19.Nh4 Kg7 20.Rc2 Rxc2 21.Bxc2 Nxc4 22.Nf5+ Kf6 23.Kg2 b5 24.Bd3 Ne5
  -+  (-3.55)   Depth: 28/63   00:00:20  141mN

(Prakash, Bhubaneswar 04.01.2012)


  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #46 - 01/04/12 at 16:29:22
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I don't really understand the thrust of this thread; so computers aren't omniscient? Who knew?
  

'Am I any good at tactics?'
'Computer says No!'
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #45 - 01/04/12 at 16:26:55
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Vass wrote on 12/28/11 at 14:32:29:
Let's make an experiment! Put your favourite engine to a test with this position:
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*
This is a variation of a known position which leads to = after 1. Ba4!! But, what your favourite engine would say?!  Undecided
Edit: FEN 3B4/1r2p3/r2p1p2/bkp1P1p1/1p1P1PPp/p1P4P/PP1K4/3B4 w - - 0 1



First of all one should know what engine to use where. So here my fav engine says this.

New game
3B4/1r2p3/r2p1p2/bkp1P1p1/1p1P1PPp/p1P4P/PP1K4/3B4 w - - 0 1

Analysis by Chiron 1.1 64bit LP:

1.c4+ Kxc4 2.Be2+ Kxd4 3.Bxa6 axb2 4.Kc2 Ra7 5.Bxa5 Rxa6 6.exf6 exf6
  -+  (-7.36)   Depth: 7/20   00:00:00  15kN
1.c4+ Kxc4 2.Be2+ Kxd4 3.Bxa6 axb2 4.Kc2 Ra7 5.Bxa5 Rxa6 6.exf6 exf6
  -+  (-7.36)   Depth: 8/24   00:00:00  37kN
1.c4+ Kxc4 2.Be2+ Kxd4 3.Bxa6 axb2 4.Kc2 Ra7 5.Bxa5 Rxa6 6.exf6 exf6
  -+  (-7.36)   Depth: 9/24   00:00:00  64kN
1.c4+ Kxc4 2.b3+ Kxd4 3.exf6 Bxd8 4.f7
  -+  (-7.19 ++)   Depth: 10/26   00:00:00  149kN
1.c4+ Kxc4 2.b3+ Kxd4 3.exf6 Bxd8 4.f7
  -+  (-7.02 ++)   Depth: 10/26   00:00:00  152kN
1.c4+ Kxc4 2.b3+ Kxd4 3.exf6 Bxd8 4.f7
  -+  (-6.68 ++)   Depth: 10/26   00:00:00  157kN
1.c4+ Kxc4 2.b3+ Kxd4 3.exf6 Ra8 4.Bxe7 gxf4 5.g5 d5 6.Kc2 Bd8 7.Bd6
  -+  (-6.94)   Depth: 10/26   00:00:00  174kN
1.c4+ Kxc4 2.b3+ Kxd4 3.exf6 Ra8 4.Bxe7 gxf4 5.g5 d5
  -+  (-5.26 ++)   Depth: 10/26   00:00:00  227kN
1.c4+ Kxc4 2.b3+ Kxd4 3.exf6 Ra8 4.Bxe7 gxf4 5.g5 d5
  -+  (-4.05 ++)   Depth: 10/26   00:00:00  227kN
1.c4+ Kxc4 2.b3+ Kxd4 3.exf6 Ra8 4.Bxe7 gxf4 5.g5 d5
  -+  (-1.50 ++)   Depth: 10/26   00:00:00  227kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Kxd8 6.f5 Ra8 7.Kc2 Bb6 8.Kb1
  =  (0.00)   Depth: 10/26   00:00:00  228kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Kxd8 6.f5 Ra8 7.Kc2 Bb6 8.Kb1 Bc7
  =  (0.00)   Depth: 11/26   00:00:00  229kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Kxd8 6.f5 Ra8 7.Kc2 Bb6 8.Kb1 Bc7 9.Kc2
  =  (0.00)   Depth: 12/30   00:00:00  235kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Kxd8 6.f5 Ra8 7.Kc2 Bb6 8.Kb1 Bc7 9.Kc2 Bb8
  =  (0.00)   Depth: 13/30   00:00:00  242kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Kxd8 6.f5 Ra8 7.Kc2 Bb6 8.Kb1 Bc7 9.Kc2 Bb8 10.Kb1
  =  (0.00)   Depth: 14/32   00:00:00  256kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Kxd8 6.f5 Ra8 7.Kc2 Bb6 8.Kb1 Bc7 9.Kc2 Bb8 10.Kb1 Bc7
  =  (0.00)   Depth: 15/32   00:00:00  275kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Kxd8 6.f5 Ra8 7.Kc2 Bb6 8.Kb1 Bc7 9.Kc2 Bb8 10.Kb1 Bc7
  =  (0.00)   Depth: 16/32   00:00:00  306kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Kxd8 6.f5 Ra8 7.Kc2 Bb6 8.Kb1 Bc7 9.Kc2 Bb8 10.Kb1 Bc7
  =  (0.00)   Depth: 17/36   00:00:00  353kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Kxd8 6.f5 Ra8 7.Kc2 Bb6 8.Kb1 Bc7 9.Kc2 Bb8 10.Kb1 Bc7
  =  (0.00)   Depth: 18/36   00:00:00  426kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Kxd8 6.f5 Ra8 7.Kc2 Bb6 8.Kb1 Bc7 9.Kc2 Bb8 10.Kb1 Bc7
  =  (0.00)   Depth: 19/36   00:00:00  522kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Kxd8 6.f5 Ra8 7.Kc2 Bb6 8.Kb1 Bc7 9.Kc2 Bb8 10.Kb1 Bc7
  =  (0.00)   Depth: 20/39   00:00:00  712kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Kxd8 6.f5 Ra8 7.Kc2 Bb6 8.Kb1 Bc7 9.Kc2 Bb8 10.Kb1 Bc7
  =  (0.00)   Depth: 21/39   00:00:00  963kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Kxd8 6.f5 Ra8 7.Kc2 Bb6 8.Kb1 Bc7 9.Kc2 Bb8 10.Kb1 Bc7
  =  (0.00)   Depth: 22/39   00:00:02  8685kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Kxd8 6.f5 Ra8 7.Kc2 Bb6 8.Kb1 Bc7 9.Kc2 Bb8 10.Kb1 Bc7
  =  (0.00)   Depth: 23/41   00:00:03  10794kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Kxd8 6.f5 Ra8 7.Kc2 Bb6 8.Kb1 Bc7 9.Kc2 Bb8 10.Kb1 Bc7
  =  (0.00)   Depth: 24/44   00:00:04  17199kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Kxd8 6.f5 Ra8 7.Kc2 Bb6 8.Kb1 Bc7 9.Kc2 Bb8 10.Kb1 Bc7
  =  (0.00)   Depth: 25/46   00:00:06  23133kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Kxd8 6.f5 Ra8 7.Kc2 Bb6 8.Kb1 Bc7 9.Kc2 Bb8 10.Kb1 Bc7
  =  (0.00)   Depth: 26/48   00:00:09  37470kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Kxd8 6.f5 Ra8 7.Kc2 Bb6 8.Kb1 Bc7 9.Kc2 Bb8 10.Kb1 Bc7
  =  (0.00)   Depth: 27/48   00:00:14  58399kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Kxd8 6.f5 Ra8 7.Kc2 Bb6 8.Kb1 Bc7 9.Kc2 Bb8 10.Kb1 Bc7
  =  (0.00)   Depth: 28/51   00:00:19  77863kN

(Prakash, Bhubaneswar 04.01.2012)

and this too...


New game
3B4/1r2p3/r2p1p2/bkp1P1p1/1p1P1PPp/p1P4P/PP1K4/3B4 w - - 0 1

Analysis by Deep Shredder 12 x64:

1.c4+ Kxc4 2.Be2+ Kxd4 3.Bxa6 axb2 4.Kc2 Ra7 5.Bxa5 Rxa6
  -+  (-6.90)   Depth: 7/13   00:00:00  31kN
1.c4+ Kxc4 2.Be2+ Kxd4 3.Bxa6 axb2 4.Kc2 Ra7 5.Bxa5 Rxa6 6.Bd8 dxe5 7.fxg5
  -+  (-7.80)   Depth: 8/19   00:00:00  50kN
1.exf6 bxc3+ 2.bxc3 exf6 3.Bxf6 gxf4 4.Be2+ c4 5.Bf3 Rh7 6.g5
  -+  (-6.80)   Depth: 8/27   00:00:00  278kN
1.exf6 bxc3+ 2.bxc3 exf6 3.Bxf6 gxf4 4.Be2+ c4 5.Bf3 Rh7 6.Bg5 Rf7 7.Bxh4
  -+  (-6.32)   Depth: 9/21   00:00:00  422kN
1.exf6 bxc3+ 2.bxc3 exf6 3.Bxf6 gxf4 4.Be2+ c4 5.Bf3 Rf7 6.Bg5 Rb6 7.Bxh4
  -+  (-6.51)   Depth: 10/21   00:00:00  517kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Kc8 6.f5 Kxd8 7.Kc2 Rba7 8.Kd3 Bb6 9.Kc2
  =/+  (-0.29)   Depth: 10/31   00:00:00  721kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Kc8 6.f5 Kxd8 7.Kc2 Rba7 8.Kd3 Bb6 9.Kc2 Ke8 10.Kd3
  =/+  (-0.29)   Depth: 11/24   00:00:00  804kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Kc8 6.f5 Kxd8 7.Kc2 Rba7 8.Kd3 Bb6 9.Kc2 Ke8 10.Kd3 Ra5
  =/+  (-0.29)   Depth: 12/20   00:00:00  845kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Kc8 6.f5 Kxd8 7.Kc2 Rba7 8.Kd3 Bb6 9.Kc2 Ke8 10.Kd3 Ra5 11.Ke4
  =/+  (-0.29)   Depth: 13/28   00:00:00  895kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Kc8 6.f5 Kxd8 7.Kc2 Rba7 8.Kd3 Bb6 9.Kc2 Ke8 10.Kd3 Ra5 11.Ke4 Ra8
  =/+  (-0.29)   Depth: 14/30   00:00:00  980kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Kc8 6.f5 Kxd8 7.Kc2 Rba7 8.Kd3 Bb6 9.Kc2 Ke8 10.Kd3 Ra5 11.Ke4 Ra8 12.Kf3 Bc7
  =/+  (-0.29)   Depth: 15/28   00:00:00  1115kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Kc8 6.f5 Kxd8 7.Kc2 Rba7 8.Kd3 Bb6 9.Kc2 Ke8 10.Kd3 Ra5 11.Ke4 Ra8 12.Kf3 Bc7 13.Ke2
  =/+  (-0.29)   Depth: 16/28   00:00:00  1407kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Ke8 6.f5 Bxd8 7.Kc2 Raa7 8.Kd2 Ra8 9.Ke3 Rba7 10.Kd3 Kf8 11.Ke3 Kg8 12.Ke4 Ra6 13.Ke3 Rb8 14.Kd3
  =/+  (-0.29)   Depth: 17/33   00:00:00  2051kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Ke8 6.f5 Bxd8 7.Kc2 Raa7 8.Kd2 Ra8 9.Ke3 Rba7 10.Kd3 Kf8 11.Ke3 Kg8 12.Ke4 Ra6 13.Ke3 Rb8 14.Kd3 Raa8
  =/+  (-0.29)   Depth: 18/35   00:00:00  2789kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Ke8 6.f5 Bxd8 7.Kc2 Raa7 8.Kd2 Ra8 9.Ke3 Rba7 10.Kd3 Kf8 11.Ke3 Kg8 12.Ke4 Ra6 13.Ke3 Rb8 14.Kd3 Raa8
  =/+  (-0.29)   Depth: 19/42   00:00:01  6428kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Ke8 6.f5 Bxd8 7.Kc2 Raa7 8.Kd2 Ra8 9.Ke3 Rba7 10.Kd3 Kf8 11.Ke3 Kg8 12.Ke4 Ra6 13.Ke3 Rb8 14.Kd3 Raa8
  =/+  (-0.29)   Depth: 20/41   00:00:02  10429kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Kc8 6.f5 Rb8 7.Bc7 Bxc7 8.Kc2 Raa8 9.Kd3 Kb7 10.Ke2 Kb6 11.Kf3 Rc8 12.Ke2 Rg8 13.Ke3 Rab8 14.Kd3 Ka5
  =/+  (-0.30)   Depth: 21/45   00:00:04  18305kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Kc8 6.f5 Rb8 7.Bc7 Bxc7 8.Kc2 Raa8 9.Kd3 Kb7 10.Ke2 Kb6 11.Kf3 Rc8 12.Ke2 Rg8 13.Ke3 Rab8 14.Kd3 Ka5
  =/+  (-0.30)   Depth: 22/45   00:00:10  40150kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Kc8 6.f5 Rb8 7.Bc7 Bxc7 8.Kc2 Raa8 9.Kd3 Kb7 10.Ke2 Kb6 11.Kf3 Rc8 12.Ke2 Rg8 13.Ke3 Rab8 14.Kd3 Ka5
  =/+  (-0.30)   Depth: 23/49   00:00:15  61332kN
1.Ba4+ Kxa4 2.b3+ Kb5 3.c4+ Kc6 4.d5+ Kd7 5.e6+ Kc8 6.f5 Rb8 7.Bc7 Bxc7 8.Kc2 Raa8 9.Kd3 Kb7 10.Ke2 Kb6 11.Kf3 Rc8 12.Ke2 Rg8 13.Ke3 Rab8 14.Kd3 Ka5
  =/+  (-0.30)   Depth: 24/50   00:00:28  115mN

(Prakash, Bhubaneswar 04.01.2012)
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #44 - 01/04/12 at 16:19:07
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Vass wrote on 12/19/11 at 09:42:47:
Good at tactics?! No way!

24. Qxe5!! is the move that wins the game.. No matter what...all the contemporary chess engines can't find it even for a day..  Cheesy

True. Not Even Rybka Cluster.
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #43 - 01/02/12 at 22:01:50
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Do the best engines and super GM's think the same?.. Some things we'll never know..  Undecided

Ok, Moro thought his 19. Na4 was enough to win the game. He did it, after all.  Wink (He's my favourite player, btw.) Anyway, if you put your favourite engine to the test to find the best 19th move here...it will disagree with Moro that 19. Na4 is best. But, they both agree that 19. Nd5 instead is nothing. (Moro didn't play it, the engine doesn't show it..  Lips Sealed) And yet, let's make this move! 19. Nd5! (...with an idea of 19....exd5 20.exd5 and 21.Bd3 and so on..)
Suddenly some things are going to crystallize..  Shocked
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #42 - 12/28/11 at 14:32:29
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Let's make an experiment! Put your favourite engine to a test with this position:
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*
This is a variation of a known position which leads to = after 1. Ba4!! But, what your favourite engine would say?!  Undecided
Edit: FEN 3B4/1r2p3/r2p1p2/bkp1P1p1/1p1P1PPp/p1P4P/PP1K4/3B4 w - - 0 1
  
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AlanG
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #41 - 12/23/11 at 13:12:14
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trw wrote on 12/20/11 at 22:45:09:
tony37 wrote on 12/02/11 at 14:41:16:
trw wrote on 11/03/11 at 19:46:17:
Markovich wrote on 11/03/11 at 16:48:54:
trw wrote on 11/03/11 at 14:08:56:
one of my favorite games is still this: http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1048284
A game which computers still don't understand the forced win for white. It came up as a 'test your strength' puzzle on chessgames.com Everyone cheated and declared the position drawn by writing down their computer's analysis. While Shirov did  not play the best defense, the game is heavily analyzed by Gelfand in his 300 best games book. All the computer moves are refuted by Gelfand's analysis to wins. No draw!

But is that true? The last comments on your link seem to suggest that Black draws after all. I haven't looked much at the chess of it.

Nope, white wins no matter what. The commentators on the game as I said are believing their chess engine -- which was the point of this thread.


I would like to be proven wrong, but I do think the last poster on that game has a point (on the variation after 32 Rc1 Qh7)



If you would like to be proven wrong, go ahead and buy Gelfand's 300 best games book.

I have Gelfand's "My Most Memorable Games" (as does the last poster on the chessgames thread) - is that the one you mean? It doesn't have 300 games, though, and it doesn't mention the poster's suggestion of 36...Qg8.
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #40 - 12/23/11 at 10:27:06
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@Papageno: Great post!.. Thank you!.. I'm interested in such games because I'm a correspondence chess player and therefore I have to know the weak sides of the contemporary chess engines in order to use them if possible.
Anyway, here is the full game you discovered:

Fantastic!..  Roll Eyes
Edit: OMG..this 27. Qf5 and 28. Rbe1!! idea is great..  Cheesy
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #39 - 12/22/11 at 19:48:29
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Although even that isn't obviously going to happen - the search tree pruning algorithms they use are always going to be prone to missing the odd very long term thing like this.

But they provide a good net benefit so can't imagine them stopping using them.
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #38 - 12/22/11 at 17:25:35
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Thanks for this very interesting thread!

The position given by Vass at #33 is from Summerscale-Jones, 2009. In fact, it seems not too difficult for an engine these days, once you allow it to reach depth 25 (Houdini 1.5a). My old and slow machine took 3 hours for solving -- contemporary hardware is probably solving this in a couple of minutes. But it should be easier and faster for a human being to find the solution. Thanks to the very straightforward nature of the solution. No big trees to calculate Smiley

The truely nice position from #34 is Gusev-Averbach, 1951, according to my database. I agree with Taljechin (#35) that Gusev lateron might have misplayed it a bit but Vass (#36) gave some convincing winning strategies.

It all comes down to the horizon effect of the computer and the engine. This means, engines are perfect at tactics if and only if the solution forces mate or a material plus (in other words, some hard facts for the machine) with a certain number of moves. Basically, if you engine is searching at depth 20 then it sees all tactics that win material within 10 moves. And cannot make deeper guesses.  Undecided

Below an example from the game Schwetlick-Ham, corr championsleague 2007. (For the solution you can google these names and find a chess blog explaining.) White played a strong move no. 23. If I'm recalling the story correctly, Black was taken by surprise and switched his machine on which kept telling him that the evaluation is 0.00 now. Thus, Black made a draw offer along with his next move. However, White had looked deeper and rightly turned down the offer. No sooner than around move 37 White got a decisive material advantage and Black then resigned.

All these examples correspond to the machines as they are right now. In a few years, we can engines expect to calculate maybe up to level 30, and in this case an engine will possibly be able to solve this following position (analyzing to level 30 at move 23 means: correctly evaluating all possibilities up to move 37). Enjoy!

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« Last Edit: 12/23/11 at 12:00:50 by Papageno »  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #37 - 12/20/11 at 22:45:09
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tony37 wrote on 12/02/11 at 14:41:16:
trw wrote on 11/03/11 at 19:46:17:
Markovich wrote on 11/03/11 at 16:48:54:
trw wrote on 11/03/11 at 14:08:56:
one of my favorite games is still this: http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1048284
A game which computers still don't understand the forced win for white. It came up as a 'test your strength' puzzle on chessgames.com Everyone cheated and declared the position drawn by writing down their computer's analysis. While Shirov did  not play the best defense, the game is heavily analyzed by Gelfand in his 300 best games book. All the computer moves are refuted by Gelfand's analysis to wins. No draw!

But is that true? The last comments on your link seem to suggest that Black draws after all. I haven't looked much at the chess of it.

Nope, white wins no matter what. The commentators on the game as I said are believing their chess engine -- which was the point of this thread.


I would like to be proven wrong, but I do think the last poster on that game has a point (on the variation after 32 Rc1 Qh7)



If you would like to be proven wrong, go ahead and buy Gelfand's 300 best games book.
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #36 - 12/19/11 at 20:26:05
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TalJechin wrote on 12/19/11 at 12:25:04:
@Vass Have you checked that it really is a win? My engine seems rather confident of getting a draw after 29...cxb3, for example: 30.axb3 a5 31.c4 g5 32.Kg2 a4 33.bxa4 Qa8 34.Kg3 Qd8 35.c5 Qd3+ 36.Rf3 g4!

The queen is usually a much stronger piece when wielded by an engine...

Well, don't trust your engine!.. Just try to analyze this position just like in the old days when there were no engines at all!.. In this exact position (after 27...b5) all the engines keep showing 0.00 or =, or whatever.. Just try to move the pieces for example like this: 28. a4!! a6 29. axb5 axb5 30. Rf2 Qe7 31. Ba2 Qa7 32. b4!! g5 33.Kf1! and you will see something more than just 0.00.. If you spend some hours in analysis here you'll find that white wins in all the variations. The point is to keep the white king safe from checks while achieving a position where all the engines face the so-called "zugzwang"..  Wink A position they obviously don't understand in full.. In my analyses here I often reached positions like this one:
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or this one:
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In fact, there's a winning plan against every black's defense. Spectacular position!..  Shocked
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #35 - 12/19/11 at 12:25:04
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@Vass Have you checked that it really is a win? My engine seems rather confident of getting a draw after 29...cxb3, for example: 30.axb3 a5 31.c4 g5 32.Kg2 a4 33.bxa4 Qa8 34.Kg3 Qd8 35.c5 Qd3+ 36.Rf3 g4!

The queen is usually a much stronger piece when wielded by an engine...
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #34 - 12/19/11 at 09:42:47
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Good at tactics?! No way!

24. Qxe5!! is the move that wins the game.. No matter what...all the contemporary chess engines can't find it even for a day..  Cheesy
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #33 - 12/19/11 at 09:24:10
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Another position which is very, very difficult to solve by the leading chess engines:
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The obvious 1....Rxh2!! with the Ra8-f8-f4 & Qh4-h6 idea is not too far from the human chess mind. Not too many moves for a chess engine to count, in fact. And yet, they can't see the best move here.  Roll Eyes
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #32 - 12/02/11 at 14:41:16
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trw wrote on 11/03/11 at 19:46:17:
Markovich wrote on 11/03/11 at 16:48:54:
trw wrote on 11/03/11 at 14:08:56:
one of my favorite games is still this: http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1048284
A game which computers still don't understand the forced win for white. It came up as a 'test your strength' puzzle on chessgames.com Everyone cheated and declared the position drawn by writing down their computer's analysis. While Shirov did  not play the best defense, the game is heavily analyzed by Gelfand in his 300 best games book. All the computer moves are refuted by Gelfand's analysis to wins. No draw!

But is that true? The last comments on your link seem to suggest that Black draws after all. I haven't looked much at the chess of it.

Nope, white wins no matter what. The commentators on the game as I said are believing their chess engine -- which was the point of this thread.


I would like to be proven wrong, but I do think the last poster on that game has a point (on the variation after 32 Rc1 Qh7)
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #31 - 11/26/11 at 19:39:51
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It's easy to dismiss computers as they don't understand appr. one zillion positions, but sometimes they are not so bad. I have one question for the engine specialists in this forum:

In his new book "Understanding Chess Middlegames", John Nunn writes in the foreword (p. 7):

Quote:
(...) I first analysed the examples in depth with computer assistance (Deep Fritz, Deep Rybka and the free engine Houdini, depending on the type of position) and used this analysis as a basis for my general description of the course of the game (...) (my highlighting)


Which engine would you use for what type of position?

Thanks in advance, and best regards,

Zwischenzugzwang
  

What do people mean when they say "Chess is the pawn of the soul"?
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #30 - 11/22/11 at 07:51:19
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I think the engine's program is written economically in a way that can be described as "following the principles".. In this special case (promoting to bishop) the engine is told to consider promoting to B (instead of to queen) only if the opponent is entering into a stalemate right after a direct queen promotion. And if not a stalemate right after the promotion then a new-promoted queen is considered to be better than a new-promoted bishop, which in most of the cases (maybe 99.9 %) is true. A problem arises in this particular case when (in 0.01% maybe) a special position like this one is arranged. Anyway, I still can't figure how the strength of the engine is affected by this arrangement of the engine's "thinking process".. Maybe these + ELO points are gained because of the fact that this particular engine is "thinking" faster in some positions than the other engines which are not modified by this rule.. Who knows? Only the engine programmers maybe..  Cool
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #29 - 11/22/11 at 06:06:51
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Markovich wrote on 11/22/11 at 01:22:39:
I suspect the cost of refusing to calculate bishop promotion other than in technical endings is very slight.


But how else would ignoring a possibility increase the playing strength (assuming that this is really the consequence of not considering this sort of underpromotion)?
  

What do people mean when they say "Chess is the pawn of the soul"?
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #28 - 11/22/11 at 01:22:39
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As I recall there are one or two technical endings wbere poromotion to bishop figures in. But here Rybka no doubt relies on tablebases (so that she does indeed "recognize" this possibility). I suspect the cost of refusing to calculate bishop promotion other than in technical endings is very slight.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #27 - 11/21/11 at 06:03:31
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So the ignorance of the "bishoping" rule was intended? And that was done to gain some rating points (probably by cutting down the resulting trees a little bit)? Funny if it works.

Chess coaches of the world, please pay attention to this!
Teach your students that a pawn is not allowed to promote to a bishop!!
   Wink

In this particular case, it doesn't spoil the problem, as, because of its symmetry, the bishop promotion is only relevant if Black is promoting to a bishop too. As Rybka doesn't see this possibility, it doesn't need to take bishoping into account for White either.

Best regards,

Zwischenzugzwang
  

What do people mean when they say "Chess is the pawn of the soul"?
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #26 - 11/21/11 at 03:20:15
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Zwischenzugzwang wrote on 11/19/11 at 09:21:17:
A little oddity:

Chessbase shows (in "Kavalek in Huffington: Joys of Chess: From Krabbé to Hesse") the following problem:

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(Leonid Yarosh - White mates in 4 moves, Shakhmaty v SSSR, 1983 [GM Lubomir Kavalek/Huffington Post])

The point is, that, after 1.a7!, whichever piece Black promotes his pawn to, White mates within the given number of moves by promoting to the same piece.

Of course, every chess engine (I tested Fritz 11, Hiarcs 13, Houdini 1.5, Stockfish 2.0.1) solves the problem in a fracture of a second. Oddly enough, only Rybka (all versions I have) has a problem with the variation 1...axb1B: It doesn't find the solution 2.axb8B. Does Rybka have a blind spot and doesn't know the underpromotion to a bishop?  Smiley

Best regards,

Zwischenzugzwang


It's well-known that Rybka does not iterate bishop underpromotions in its search. It will allow them as legal moves if played against it, but it will not search them in its tree.

Despite a fair bit of flak from the community, apparently Rajlich's ultra-pragmatic design choice reportedly gained 2 or 3 Elo points from the reduction.

From a consumer viewpoint, the gain is negligible, and there's something not very aesthetic about an engine being entirely unable to solve a problem even if it searched until the end of time just because it didn't fully support the rules of chess. Nevertheless, it is true that bishop underpromotions are sufficiently rare that one could say they pretty much only exist in contrived positions.

At any rate, it is what it is.
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #25 - 11/19/11 at 12:14:07
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Very interesting!.. Maybe Rybka doesn't know that white can promote the pawn into a third bishop?!?  Huh
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #24 - 11/19/11 at 09:21:17
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A little oddity:

Chessbase shows (in "Kavalek in Huffington: Joys of Chess: From Krabbé to Hesse") the following problem:

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*
(Leonid Yarosh - White mates in 4 moves, Shakhmaty v SSSR, 1983 [GM Lubomir Kavalek/Huffington Post])

The point is, that, after 1.a7!, whichever piece Black promotes his pawn to, White mates within the given number of moves by promoting to the same piece.

Of course, every chess engine (I tested Fritz 11, Hiarcs 13, Houdini 1.5, Stockfish 2.0.1) solves the problem in a fracture of a second. Oddly enough, only Rybka (all versions I have) has a problem with the variation 1...axb1B: It doesn't find the solution 2.axb8B. Does Rybka have a blind spot and doesn't know the underpromotion to a bishop?  Smiley

Best regards,

Zwischenzugzwang
  

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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #23 - 11/15/11 at 11:13:44
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Engines good at tactics.. Really?

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If you're tired of looking at your engines' solutions 1.Kh1 (1.Kh2) or 1.f3 as the superior moves for white in this position...just try to wake up your beloved engine with 1.Bxh6!   Shocked Then after the obvious 1...gxh6 2.Qxh6 Ng6 (the knight on h4 was hanging badly) it usually starts counting on 3.Nf5  Roll Eyes  But enter 3.Re1! and...whoa, suddenly your machine is seeing everything.  Cheesy
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #22 - 11/03/11 at 19:46:17
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Markovich wrote on 11/03/11 at 16:48:54:
trw wrote on 11/03/11 at 14:08:56:
one of my favorite games is still this: http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1048284
A game which computers still don't understand the forced win for white. It came up as a 'test your strength' puzzle on chessgames.com Everyone cheated and declared the position drawn by writing down their computer's analysis. While Shirov did  not play the best defense, the game is heavily analyzed by Gelfand in his 300 best games book. All the computer moves are refuted by Gelfand's analysis to wins. No draw!

But is that true? The last comments on your link seem to suggest that Black draws after all. I haven't looked much at the chess of it.

Nope, white wins no matter what. The commentators on the game as I said are believing their chess engine -- which was the point of this thread.
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #21 - 11/03/11 at 16:48:54
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trw wrote on 11/03/11 at 14:08:56:
one of my favorite games is still this: http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1048284
A game which computers still don't understand the forced win for white. It came up as a 'test your strength' puzzle on chessgames.com Everyone cheated and declared the position drawn by writing down their computer's analysis. While Shirov did  not play the best defense, the game is heavily analyzed by Gelfand in his 300 best games book. All the computer moves are refuted by Gelfand's analysis to wins. No draw!

But is that true? The last comments on your link seem to suggest that Black draws after all. I haven't looked much at the chess of it.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #20 - 11/03/11 at 15:53:26
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And look at this one! Aronian - Volokitin:

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After the game Aronian makes the remark: Bxh6! with excellent play for white.
Just try to give this to Houdini!..  Cheesy
Never trust your engine!.. Trust your mind!..  Lips Sealed
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #19 - 11/03/11 at 15:08:16
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First one 1 Re2(?)!! Second one 1 Kd1, "+25.94" ...
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #18 - 11/03/11 at 14:54:39
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The same thing, but little exaggerated:
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Shocked
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #17 - 11/03/11 at 14:47:30
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[quote author=6D6E6462030 link=1319957182/16#16 date=1320330168]My Houdini is weird! In the first position it plays 1 ...Qh6, giving it as winning and making me think it's [i]possible[/i] it's gone for this having evaluated it as actually stronger than 1 ...g3 2 h3 Bh3. Then, if I input 1 ...g3 it then sees 2 h3 Bh3 immediately (playing 2 hg in fact), but when I input 2 h3 as well, it plays 2 ...Nc8. Weird! ...[/quote]
  ;D
A paradox:
[fen]8/8/2k5/5p2/p1p1pPp1/PpPpP1Pp/1P1P3P/QNR1RNK1 w - - 0 13



[/fen]
If you put this position to Houdini...what evaluation do you think it gives? (Suppose the last black move is b4-b3..) From +4.0 (for Qa1-a2) to +25.0 or so..  :D
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #16 - 11/03/11 at 14:22:48
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My Houdini is weird! In the first position it plays 1 ...Qh6, giving it as winning and making me think it's [i]possible[/i] it's gone for this having evaluated it as actually stronger than 1 ...g3 2 h3 Bh3. Then, if I input 1 ...g3 it then sees 2 h3 Bh3 immediately (playing 2 hg in fact), but when I input 2 h3 as well, it plays 2 ...Nc8. Weird! ...
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #15 - 11/03/11 at 14:09:02
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 11/03/11 at 13:41:46:
Thx, Vass! I'm amazed that the engines can't see that plan. But then, I've found that even now, Roman Dzindzichasvili's old (1990s) method of using pawn storms to crush engines still works in correspondence.

You're welcome!..  Cool
Amazingly, even in the positions that are highly tactical the engines can't do without the correspondent player. At least, when a strategy is needed.. Look at this example:
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This one is from a correspondent chess game, too.. Every correspondent player will try to analyze the winning move 1.Ncxe5!! first.. Try some Houdini's or Rybka's!.. They can see it in 27-depth  Shocked, at least.. While the human strategy is simple: sac the knight for two pawns (Kh8-h7 is a must), exchange the c-file rooks (Rc1xc8, Rfxc8 is compulsory, too), then move the queen along f3-g4-f5 route and...you can help yourself with some engines if you're lazy..  Wink
The pawn storm is coming..  Grin
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #14 - 11/03/11 at 14:08:56
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one of my favorite games is still this: http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1048284
A game which computers still don't understand the forced win for white. It came up as a 'test your strength' puzzle on chessgames.com Everyone cheated and declared the position drawn by writing down their computer's analysis. While Shirov did  not play the best defense, the game is heavily analyzed by Gelfand in his 300 best games book. All the computer moves are refuted by Gelfand's analysis to wins. No draw!
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #13 - 11/03/11 at 13:41:46
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Thx, Vass! I'm amazed that the engines can't see that plan. But then, I've found that even now, Roman Dzindzichasvili's old (1990s) method of using pawn storms to crush engines still works in correspondence.
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #12 - 11/03/11 at 12:01:04
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As correspondence chess players know...the engines are far from perfection. One may look at this position with Houdini, Rybka or whatever and never find the win for black (position taken from a correspondence chess game):
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Then try to think yourself, analyze a bit...and you'll see:
1... g3! 2. h3 Bxh3! 3. gxh3 g2 4. Rfc1 Qh4-+  Cool
They use to to say correspondence chess is dead. Yes, it's dead...when relying only on machines.  Wink
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #11 - 11/03/11 at 08:35:10
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bragesjo wrote on 11/02/11 at 10:13:55:
About engines, often different engines tells completly different things in complicated positions.
I remember a certain sharp Dragon line where first engine says white is winning and second engine says black is slightly better and the truth was the black was much better.


This was precisely my first point. And it was a comment on the idea that Houdini should be the best engine. It turned out that statement was because it won a match (don't remember the exact details, but not even a useful set-up IMO - too short analysis time) against other engines.

Well of course different engines will give different evaluations depending on their algoritms. And their main strength is not long-term planning. Nothing new, really. I guess the question is when in practical terms we humans won't be able to improve the analysis.
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #10 - 11/03/11 at 04:41:37
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 11/02/11 at 12:42:42:
Agreed, bragesjo. I've seen on another site how some ppl are beholden to the computational power of Houdini over everything else. Yet Fritz will often have a more accurate evaluation of the position. I'm not the first to have noticed this by a long shot. There was an article over on ChessCafe that discussed the strengths and weaknesses of various engines in correspondence chess. Of course, I still believe that humans have the best evaluative skills in positions such as this unless there's a mathematical proof of a draw.


Can you link to that article?


BTW, I also concur with Markovich and MNB. Chess engines are not god and they are not telling 'Chess Truths'
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #9 - 11/02/11 at 12:42:42
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Agreed, bragesjo. I've seen on another site how some ppl are beholden to the computational power of Houdini over everything else. Yet Fritz will often have a more accurate evaluation of the position. I'm not the first to have noticed this by a long shot. There was an article over on ChessCafe that discussed the strengths and weaknesses of various engines in correspondence chess. Of course, I still believe that humans have the best evaluative skills in positions such as this unless there's a mathematical proof of a draw.
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #8 - 11/02/11 at 10:13:55
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About engines, often different engines tells completly different things in complicated positions.
I remember a certain sharp Dragon line where first engine says white is winning and second engine says black is slightly better and the truth was the black was much better.
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #7 - 11/02/11 at 09:34:32
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Well, the position I created at random was to illustrate that while engines may consider a material imbalance in favor of one side, humans have a different sense.

Here's a slightly revised version of the same material imbalance that is a bit more clearly in White's favor. I'm not claiming a win for White, but I'd definitely prefer to play that side. I wonder how many humans would prefer to play Black?

Firebird considers the position to be equal (+0.09) at a depth of 20 ply. The goal here isn't so much to find absolute truth as to point out a basic flaw in the calculus of material that this family of engines consistently exhibit.

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And here's another similar position:
Firebird gives this as 0.00 at 20 ply. I think most humans would LOVE to play White in a correspondence game.
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #6 - 11/02/11 at 07:51:51
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I can understand why the position in question is eventually equal. Without calculating a lot of variations 
For White to win he must prevent that Black exchanges his pawn and 2 pieces against the 3 pawns (2 lonely knights cant deliver mate). That may prove extremely difficult, especially since the 'defenders' king is in front of the passed pawn(s).
But there are plenty of other endgame positions that are too difficult for engines at this moment (perhaps not in the future). Another example are positions with R+p vs. B+Kn, Rook end-games with multiple pawns (4p vs 3p) are often too difficult for a correct evaluation.
I also appreciate the comments on gambits. Especially those gambits where compensation for a pawn in a semi-closed position is in the nature of a creeping initiative
where you can slowly improve your position further and the opponent has been robbed of any pawn-brakes.
  
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Re: My trusty engine tells me Chess Truth
Reply #5 - 11/01/11 at 16:29:35
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This Topic was moved here from 1. e4 e5 - Non-Spanish [move by] Markovich.
  

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