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Poll closed Question: what is your favorite move after : 5.Nbd2 ... ?
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*** This poll has now closed ***


5. ... f6    
  0 (0.0%)
5.... Bg4    
  1 (14.3%)
5.... Bf5    
  1 (14.3%)
5.... Be6    
  0 (0.0%)
5.... Nge7 (Moro. Var.)    
  5 (71.4%)
5.... Qe7    
  0 (0.0%)
5... a5    
  0 (0.0%)
5.... Nh6 (a recent idea)    
  0 (0.0%)




Total votes: 7
« Created by: Bubu13 on: 12/15/11 at 16:16:31 »
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Problem with the Morozevitch var. of the Albin ... (Read 22822 times)
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Re: Problem with the Morozevitch var. of the Albin ...
Reply #31 - 09/16/14 at 12:15:57
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to continue on my previous post, I think it's better for black to play Bh3 on move 7, I can't find a clear refutation here
but then delaying Bg2 with 7.a3 (or maybe 7.h3 in case of Bg4) looks very interesting...
  
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Re: Problem with the Morozevitch var. of the Albin ...
Reply #30 - 09/15/14 at 22:11:03
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SWJediknight wrote on 09/15/14 at 12:36:11:
A) 5...Bg4 6.a3 (6.h3 Bxf3 7.Nxf3 Bb4+ 8.Bd2 Qe7, 6.Nb3 Bb4+ 7.Bd2 Qe7) 6...Qe7 7.h3 Bh5 (7...Be6 is well met by 8.b4).  However, White can get a queenside attack rolling here with 8.Qa4, e.g. 8...0-0-0 9.b4 Nxe5 10.Nxe5 Qxe5 11.Bb2.



11.g4 (Watson) is almost winning.
  
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Re: Problem with the Morozevitch var. of the Albin ...
Reply #29 - 09/15/14 at 19:52:56
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against 5.Nbd2 Bg4/Be6 6.g3 Qd7 7.Bg2 O-O-O 8.O-O Bh3 I like 9.e6 Bxe6 10.Ng5
in all the other lines I could find something playable for black, but here white has an unopposed g2-bishop and I really can't find anything decent
b4 is often a good pawn sac: 10...Nf6 11.b4 /10...Kb8 11.b4 /10...Nge7 11.b4 /10...Be7 11.Nxe6 Qxe6 12.b4 but white has other good options as well
  
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Re: Problem with the Morozevitch var. of the Albin ...
Reply #28 - 09/15/14 at 16:41:43
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I think 5.g3 Nge7 is sound, but that White can return the pawn and get a slight edge (6.Bg2 Ng6 7.0-0 Nxe5 8.Nxe5 Nxe5 9.b3 as played by Ivanchuk against Morozevich in 2012)- this avoids Black's various attractive attacking lines that follow the attempt to disrupt Black's efforts at regaining the pawn with 7.Bg5.

The problem with 5.g3 Bg4 in my opinion is not 6.Nbd2 but rather 6.Bg2 Qd7 7.0-0 0-0-0 8.Qb3, intending 9.Rd1 rounding up the d4-pawn, and if 8...Bh3?! then 9.e6 follows, intending 9...Bxe6 10.Ne5 and pressure mounts against c6 and b7.  Partly for this reason, I prefer 5...Bf5, whereupon in the above line, 8.Qb3 can be met by 8...a6 since 9.Rd1?? Na5 wins the queen.

As far as I'm aware 5.Nbd2 Bg4 6.g3 is likely to lead to the popular line 6...Qd7 7.Bg2 0-0-0 8.0-0 Bh3- I don't deny that this is theoretically better for White, but I am more than happy with Black's kingside hacking chances there.  5.Nbd2 Be6 6.g3 is likely to come to the same thing.
  
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Re: Problem with the Morozevitch var. of the Albin ...
Reply #27 - 09/15/14 at 14:45:17
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after 5...Be6 and 5...Bg4 I intend to transpose to the old main line with 6.g3 (having avoided the 5.g3 Nge7 line), Black has some active plans of course, but I doubt it is theoretically sound
  
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Re: Problem with the Morozevitch var. of the Albin ...
Reply #26 - 09/15/14 at 12:36:11
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I don't trust 5.Nbd2 Bf5 any longer because of the first line above: 6.Nb3 Bb4+ 7.Bd2 Be7 (or 7...Qe7 8.a3, and after 8...Bxd2+ 9.Qxd2 the bishop on f5 is vulnerable to Qd2-f4) 8.Na5 (Justesen-Anderson, email 2011) and I don't think much of Black's compensation after 6...Qe7 7.Nbxd4, e.g. 7...0-0-0 8.e3 Nxe5 9.Bd2 (the bishop on f5 proves to be a target).

Therefore I think Black's best options are:

A) 5...Bg4 6.a3 (6.h3 Bxf3 7.Nxf3 Bb4+ 8.Bd2 Qe7, 6.Nb3 Bb4+ 7.Bd2 Qe7) 6...Qe7 7.h3 Bh5 (7...Be6 is well met by 8.b4).  However, White can get a queenside attack rolling here with 8.Qa4, e.g. 8...0-0-0 9.b4 Nxe5 10.Nxe5 Qxe5 11.Bb2.

B) 5...Be6 6.a3 (again 6.Nb3 Bb4+ 7.Bd2 Qe7 is an improved version for Black over 5...Bf5 6.Nb3) 6...Nge7 7.Nb3 Nf5.  White has the better chances with accurate play (8.Qd3 and 8.g3 are among the most critical responses) but the position is complicated.
  
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Re: Problem with the Morozevitch var. of the Albin ...
Reply #25 - 09/14/14 at 18:37:09
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Bubu13 wrote on 12/18/11 at 15:03:20:
I would like to point out a new idea in the Nbd2 Bf5 variation :
1.d4 d5 2.c4 e5 3.dxe5 d4 4.Nf3 Nc6 5.Nbd2 Bf5 6.Nb3 ... (I think that 6.a3 is better) 6.... Bb4+ 7.Bd2 Be7 8.Bf4 ... and now : 8.... g5 !? in order to use the Be7 (instead of Bb4+) I know that Raetzky/Chetwerick dismiss it, but look after : 9.Bc1 Qd7!? 10.Bxg5 ... (If 10.Nfxd4 OOO! 11.e3 Nxe5 ) 10....BxBg5 11.NxBg5 000 12. Qd2 Nxe5 13.OOO f6! 14.Nf3 Qa4! and i think that black can be optimist !? What do you think about it ?

but what about 5.Nbd2 Bf5 6.Nb3 Bb4+ 7.Bd2 Be7 8.Na5, and now for example 8...Nxa5 9.Bxa5 b6 10.Bd2 Qd7 11.e3 dxe3 12.Bxe3 Bb4+ 13.Bd2 Bxd2+ 14.Qxd2 Ne7 15.O-O-O
I also looked at 6.Nb3 Qe7 but here I think I found a strong exchange sac for white: 7.g3 O-O-O (7...f6 8.exf6 Nxf6 9.Bg2 d3 10.e3; 7...Nxe5 8.Nxe5 Qxe5 9.Qxd4 Bb4+ 10.Bd2 Bxd2+ 11.Qxd2 Rd8 12.Qc3 Qxc3+ 13.bxc3) 8.Bg2 d3 9.O-O dxe2 10.Qxe2 Bd3 11.Qd1!
  
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Re: Problem with the Morozevitch var. of the Albin ...
Reply #24 - 12/18/12 at 16:23:47
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Looking at those positions after 5.....Nge7.  I would have to go with 5....f6.  I have found a few games from 50 years ago where black play 6......Qf6 and seems to get a decent game.  Opocensky played it once and it is called the Janowski variation.
  
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Re: Problem with the Morozevitch var. of the Albin ...
Reply #23 - 11/22/12 at 17:34:34
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Avrukh gives 5.a3 Bg4 6.Nbd2 Qe7 7.b4 but I think 5.Nbd2 Bg4 6.g3 may be better
  
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Re: Problem with the Morozevitch var. of the Albin ...
Reply #22 - 11/22/12 at 17:16:43
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After 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e5 3.dxe5 d4 4.Nf3 Nc6 5.Nbd2 I have used 5...Bg4 consistently with good results. Some of the theoretical lines used to dismiss this after 6.a3 Qe7 are old and not particularly convincing.

I don't know, honestly, what the true verdict should be on this line, so all that I can offer is my practical experience: my last two games using this line for Black were comfortable draws against mid 2300 level opposition. After the last one (where I was probably winning but took a draw because it was getting late and I wanted to sleep), my opponent told me that he was now doubting Avrukh's analysis. However, since I don't own Avrukh's book, I can't confirm this.
  
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Re: Problem with the Morozevitch var. of the Albin ...
Reply #21 - 08/29/12 at 14:03:01
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From the lines given so far, I still prefer 5...Bf5- it seems to me that Black has to accept a modest theoretical disadvantage but gets counterplay, whereas I don't like Black's position after 10-15 moves of the aforementioned game in the 5...Nge7 line.  Black is essentially relying upon White messing up in an endgame with a significantly-devalued pawn plus.

I tried out the 5...Bf5 6.a3 Qe7 line in a recent simul and lost, but I feel that I actually got a decent position out of the opening- my opponent just handled the complications better than I did around moves 10-15 and emerged with advantage.
  
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Re: Problem with the Morozevitch var. of the Albin ...
Reply #20 - 08/29/12 at 12:30:38
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Yes ! I do agree with you ! In fact, this game doesn't help me to find a final answer to my initial question : what to do against 5.Nbd2 ... ?
1) to accept this ending with 8.... KxQd8 even if i'm not totally convinced by the resulting situation.
2) to try 5.... Bf5, 5.... f6 or 5... Be6 ? Undecided
  
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Re: Problem with the Morozevitch var. of the Albin ...
Reply #19 - 08/15/12 at 20:45:07
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Bubu13 wrote on 08/15/12 at 14:02:27:
And now, a recent game with one of the best french woman player defending the white side ! At the moment of writting, she is playing the French National championship at Pau (France) from the 14th of august to the 24th of august 2012.
This game is quite strange ! White seems to hold a clear advantage without too many problems ... Black has won but i cannot understand why !
Some ideas ?!



At a high level it appears to me that White lost due to some weak endgame play rather than as a direct result of the opening.  Notice how White was ineffective in launching counter play and allowed Black to use his king unopposed in support of  advancing his queenside pawns.  White never brought her king into play and the bishop was largely passive.
  
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Re: Problem with the Morozevitch var. of the Albin ...
Reply #18 - 08/15/12 at 14:02:27
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And now, a recent game with one of the best french woman player defending the white side ! At the moment of writting, she is playing the French National championship at Pau (France) from the 14th of august to the 24th of august 2012.
This game is quite strange ! White seems to hold a clear advantage without too many problems ... Black has won but i cannot understand why !
Some ideas ?!


  
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Re: Problem with the Morozevitch var. of the Albin ...
Reply #17 - 06/22/12 at 14:17:50
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Finally, i found an other idea to (maybe) save the day of the morozevich way of play : 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e5 3.dxe5 d4 4.Nf3 Nc6 5.Nbd2! Nge7 6.Nb3! Nf5 7.e4!? dxe3 8.QxQd8 ... and now : 8.... KxQd8 !? The idea is to keep the e5 pawn under the knight pressure. 9. fxe3 Bb4+ 10. Kf2 Nh6!? 11.h3 Re8 12.e4 Nxe5 and in case of 12.... BxNh6 13.gxBh6 the bishops pair is a compensation vs the wrecked structure ...
What do you think about this ?
  
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Re: Problem with the Morozevitch var. of the Albin ...
Reply #16 - 12/23/11 at 05:23:42
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Not that I'm aware of. With the assistance of Rybka I found another idea though: 6.a3 Qe7 7.g3 O-O-O 8.Bg2 d3 9.O-O dxe2 10.Qxe2 Bd3 11.Qe3 Bxf1 12.Bxf1 and Black has problems developing his/her Kingside, eg Kb8 13.b4 f6 14.Bb2 fxe5 15.Bg2 Nf6 16.b5 e4 unclear.
More solid is 6.a3 Qe7 7.b4 O-O-O 8.Bb2 (iso 8.Nb3)
a)8...Nh6 9.Nb3 Ng4 10.Nbxd4 Ngxe5 11.e3.
b)8...f6 9.exf6 Nxf6 10.g3 Ng4 11.Bh3 and White might still be a little better, though Black might enjoy the complications. There is still that Bishop on f8 though.
  

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Re: Problem with the Morozevitch var. of the Albin ...
Reply #15 - 12/22/11 at 12:42:13
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Yes, I don't think Black's chances are too bad at all in that last position.  White might have improvements though, e.g. 12.e4 h6 13.Nf3 Bg4 14.h3 Bxf3 (14...Bh5 15.g4 Bg6 16.Bd3 +=) 15.Qxf3 Nxe5 16.Qf4 Qe6 +=.  I think the line must be +=, though Black does have some compensation for the pawn.

6.a3 (the best response to 5...Be6) might also be best after 5...Bf5, as after 6...Qd7 7.b4 0-0-0 8.Nb3 White's attack should indeed be faster than Black's (probably += to +/-).  That might not be the last word, though, for Rybka's first choice after 6.a3 is 6...Qe7 eyeing the e5-pawn as well as planning to castle queenside, while ...f6 is also possible at an opportune moment.  For instance 7.b4 0-0-0 8.Nb3 is no longer as effective because of 8...f6 intending 9...Nxe5 (8...Nxe5 is also possible), and after 9.exf6 Nxf6 10.Bb2 Ne4 Black has a lot of activity.  7.Nb3 0-0-0 8.Bf4 (8.g3 Nxe5) 8...f6 9.exf6 Nxf6 also gives Black good play.  Unlike after the immediate 5...f6, Black appears to get strong tactical chances in these 5...Bf5 and later ...f6 lines, and the bishop on f5 is ideally placed to support the ...d4-d3 push.

Or is there some published refutation that I'm unaware of?
  
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Re: Problem with the Morozevitch var. of the Albin ...
Reply #14 - 12/18/11 at 15:03:20
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I would like to point out a new idea in the Nbd2 Bf5 variation :
1.d4 d5 2.c4 e5 3.dxe5 d4 4.Nf3 Nc6 5.Nbd2 Bf5 6.Nb3 ... (I think that 6.a3 is better) 6.... Bb4+ 7.Bd2 Be7 8.Bf4 ... and now : 8.... g5 !? in order to use the Be7 (instead of Bb4+) I know that Raetzky/Chetwerick dismiss it, but look after : 9.Bc1 Qd7!? 10.Bxg5 ... (If 10.Nfxd4 OOO! 11.e3 Nxe5 ) 10....BxBg5 11.NxBg5 000 12. Qd2 Nxe5 13.OOO f6! 14.Nf3 Qa4! and i think that black can be optimist !? What do you think about it ?
  
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Re: Problem with the Morozevitch var. of the Albin ...
Reply #13 - 12/16/11 at 22:49:53
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Yeah, that line is similar to 5...Be6 6.a3 Qd7 7.b4- White gets a rapid ready-made attack on the queenside.
  
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Re: Problem with the Morozevitch var. of the Albin ...
Reply #12 - 12/16/11 at 21:38:39
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5.Nbd2 Bf5 6.a3 Qd7 7.b4 looks pretty good for White to me.
  

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Re: Problem with the Morozevitch var. of the Albin ...
Reply #11 - 12/16/11 at 20:48:00
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Here's an interesting article on 5.Nbd2:
http://www.chessbase.com/newsroom2.asp?id=6154

After 5.Nbd2 Be6 6.Nb3 the article implies that Black does best with ...Bb4+ but claims an advantage for White in all lines after 6.a3, preventing ...Bb4+ and following up with 7.Nb3 in most cases- indeed play can transpose to MNb's game.

Michael Goeller has an analysis of some relevant lines here:
http://www.kenilworthchessclub.org/games/java/summer05/albin-nge7.htm

I think if I was Black in this line I would try to avoid that particular ending.  In the meantime 5...Bf5!? is worth a look, though I imagine that White should still get some advantage using the familiar plan of Nd2-b3 and a3 to attack the d4-pawn.
  
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Re: Problem with the Morozevitch var. of the Albin ...
Reply #10 - 12/16/11 at 17:23:20
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MNb wrote on 12/15/11 at 21:24:07:
Bubu13 wrote on 12/15/11 at 16:08:21:
To MNb : 15. ... Nd3+ !? seems to be better, doesn't it ? The Na3 is "en prise" !?
Was : 5. ... Be6 your favorite move against the 5.Nbd2 line ?

Yes, was. 15...Nd3+ 16.Bxd3 Rxd3 (Bxa3 17.Rd1) 17.Nc2 Be7 18.Ke2 and I don't see Black's compensation.

OK ! Maybe something else somewhere else ... ??
  
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Re: Problem with the Morozevitch var. of the Albin ...
Reply #9 - 12/15/11 at 21:24:07
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Bubu13 wrote on 12/15/11 at 16:08:21:
To MNb : 15. ... Nd3+ !? seems to be better, doesn't it ? The Na3 is "en prise" !?
Was : 5. ... Be6 your favorite move against the 5.Nbd2 line ?

Yes, was. 15...Nd3+ 16.Bxd3 Rxd3 (Bxa3 17.Rd1) 17.Nc2 Be7 18.Ke2 and I don't see Black's compensation.
  

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Re: Problem with the Morozevitch var. of the Albin ...
Reply #8 - 12/15/11 at 16:16:31
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What is your opinion, dear Albin aficionados ?
After : 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e5 3.dxe5 d4 4.Nf3 Nc6 5.Nbd2 ...
what is your move ?
  
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Re: Problem with the Morozevitch var. of the Albin ...
Reply #7 - 12/15/11 at 16:08:21
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To MNb : 15. ... Nd3+ !? seems to be better, doesn't it ? The Na3 is "en prise" !?
Was : 5. ... Be6 your favorite move against the 5.Nbd2 line ?
  
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Re: Problem with the Morozevitch var. of the Albin ...
Reply #6 - 11/20/11 at 21:19:12
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Faust,D - MNb [D08]
em J50/P052 ICCF, 2001

1-0
  

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Re: Problem with the Morozevitch var. of the Albin ...
Reply #5 - 11/19/11 at 19:30:10
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is 5. ...Nge7 considered as best? What about ...Be6 and Bg4? Houdini thinks about ....f6!?
  

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Re: Problem with the Morozevitch var. of the Albin ...
Reply #4 - 11/19/11 at 16:57:49
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I'm an ex-Albin devotee and 5...Nge7 hasn't done anything to bring me back.
  

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Re: Problem with the Morozevitch var. of the Albin ...
Reply #3 - 11/19/11 at 07:05:13
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OK ! So, dear Albin devotees, what is your opinion : do you dodge the whole line by playing something else after 5.Nbd2 or do you accept this line as playable but slightly inferior, hoping for a white mistake in the middlegame ?
  
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Re: Problem with the Morozevitch var. of the Albin ...
Reply #2 - 11/18/11 at 10:27:58
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Quote:
1.d4 d5 2.c4 e5 3.dxe5 d4 4.Nf3 Nc6 5.Nbd2! Nge7 (5. ... Nh6!?) 6.Nb3! (simple !) Nf5 7.e4! (simple, as i've said !) 7. ... dxe3 8.QxQd8 and the resulting position seems to be completely nice for the white side !
This is well known, given in some books on 1.d4
  

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Re: Problem with the Morozevitch var. of the Albin ...
Reply #1 - 11/17/11 at 11:42:22
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Bubu13 wrote on 11/17/11 at 08:44:45:
The problem seems to be :
1.d4 d5 2.c4 e5 3.dxe5 d4 4.Nf3 Nc6 5.Nbd2! Nge7 (5. ... Nh6!?) 6.Nb3! (simple !) Nf5 7.e4! (simple, as i've said !) 7. ... dxe3 8.QxQd8 and the resulting position seems to be completely nice for the white side ! At first, I thought that the double white e-pawns would give some compensation, but i cannot find a game where this is demonstrated ...
Do you have a score game to oppose ?

I've found two corr.games but not of high quality:  Huh


  
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Bubu13
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Chess is not a science
! It is a game !!

Posts: 48
Location: Marseille
Joined: 11/25/04
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Problem with the Morozevitch var. of the Albin ...
11/17/11 at 08:44:45
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The problem seems to be :
1.d4 d5 2.c4 e5 3.dxe5 d4 4.Nf3 Nc6 5.Nbd2! Nge7 (5. ... Nh6!?) 6.Nb3! (simple !) Nf5 7.e4! (simple, as i've said !) 7. ... dxe3 8.QxQd8 and the resulting position seems to be completely nice for the white side ! At first, I thought that the double white e-pawns would give some compensation, but i cannot find a game where this is demonstrated ...
Do you have a score game to oppose ?
  
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