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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Lines against the Torre/London for Grunfeld Player (Read 9221 times)
DragonKnight
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Re: Lines against the Torre/London for Grunfeld Player
Reply #10 - 12/14/11 at 00:35:23
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Ofcause, it is possible to play 2..c5 but then you have to learn some english, or maybe Benko, Benoni, Blümenfeld, or play g6 follow by kingsindian setup. I think the kingsindian setups is some of the best lines aginst London an Torre.
I play the grünfeld myself, and I play some grünfeld setups vs the Torre and the London.
Here are some lines that works for me.
Torre: 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 g6 3.Bg5 Bg7 4.e3 d5 5.Bd3 Nbd7!? (or c5 with the same plan) 6.Nbd2 c5! 7.c3 Qb6 8.Qc2 (or 8.Rb1 e5; 8.Qb3 Qc7) 8..e5 The plan is 9.dxe5 Ng4 and 9.Nxe5 Nxe5 10.dxe5 Ng4. It is a simpel an good plan.
London: 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 g6 3.Bf4 Bg7 4.e3 d5 5.Bd3 b6 follow by c5,Bb7,Nc6,0-0,N(f6)d7. White have to play h3 because (after Nc6) Nh5 is a treath.
  

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Re: Lines against the Torre/London for Grunfeld Player
Reply #9 - 12/08/11 at 23:32:57
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Thanks for the replies.  Much food for thought.  In the end after looking at the various plans mentioned here the Nfd7 followed by e5 break and kingside pawn advance looked interesting in both the Torre and London in the games from my database I looked at, so I decided to make that my plan of choice against these.
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Lines against the Torre/London for Grunfeld Player
Reply #8 - 12/05/11 at 17:32:38
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Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 12/04/11 at 03:19:29:
ErictheRed wrote on 12/02/11 at 23:49:09:
In general I like playing an early ...c5, usually followed up with ...d5 instead of the "King's Indian" ...d6 in these types of lines. 

Actually, I've recently started playing 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 c5!? right away to "punish" White for not sticking his pawn on c4.  Now anything other than 3.c4 and 3.d5 is very comfortable for Black who hasn't committed to ...e6 or ...g6 yet; it's something for you to consider, especially if you know your opponent always plays the d-pawn specials.


But with this line if White intends to play 3. c4 after 2...g6 instead of 2...c5, then Black eschews this possibility of transposing to the Grünfeld. 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 g6 3. c4 Bg7 4. Nc3 d5 could easily transpose to the Grünfeld.


Well it's up to you, but I basically quit trying to transpose back into "my" openings after 2.Nf3, because the vast majority of 2.Nf3 players were going to play a d-pawn special anyway.  It's a numbers game, and it's totally up to you.

After 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 c5 3.c4 I wouldn't worry about not having transposed to the Grunfeld; you're playing an English, and White can always make you play an English instead of a Grunfeld anyway.  I recommend the gambit 3...cd 4.Nxd4 e5 5.Nb5 d5 6.cd Bc5 or 4...e6 with Nimzo-like play (often transposing to the 4.g3 line of the Nimzo). 

The only real drawback from my point of view is 3.d5, after which you can play for a Benoni, Blumenfeld, or the interesting 3...b5!? to try to keep things on your terrain.  So basically after 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 c5, you really only need to add one new line in your prep.  I'm enjoying this so far, and people who would normally play the London, Torre, Colle, etc., end up having to play 3.c3 or 3.e3, which look even more tame than usual after 2...c5.
  
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Re: Lines against the Torre/London for Grunfeld Player
Reply #7 - 12/05/11 at 13:57:13
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To me at least, the lines in Dembo's book or setups with ...d5 (3.Bg5 Bg7 4.Nbd2 0-0 5.c3 d5 or 3.Bf4 Bg7 4.e3 d5) would seem logical choices for a Grunfeld player. In the ...d5 lines, compared to the Schlechter Slav, White hasn't played c4 and isn't in such a good position to do, whereas Black can play the typical ...c5 in one turn. The fact that White's dark-squared bishop is outside the pawn chain doesn't really compensate for this. Not that Black is better or anything, of course.

3.Bf4 Bg7 4.c4 does transpose to a King's Indian, but it is such a rare line that I don't think a Grunfeld player would have any issues going into it. A good reply is 4...0-0 5.Nc3 c5 (6.e3 cd4 7.ed4 d5 or 6.d5 b5), or 5...d6 6.e3 Nbd7 7.h3 b6 8.Be2 Bb7 9.0-0 Ne4.
  

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Re: Lines against the Torre/London for Grunfeld Player
Reply #6 - 12/05/11 at 12:53:48
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Klick wrote on 12/05/11 at 11:58:48:
After 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 g6 3.  Bf4 Bg7 4. e3 black has a good position. Consider playing d6-c5-Be6(taking away b3) and Qb6 hitting the abandoned b2-pawn. Another idea I like is to play a quick Nfd7-e5 and then follow with a general kingside-advance.

This looks more like the King's Indian player approach than the Gruenfeld player's one. Other than that...it is good, sound and easy to study and play. Yelena Dembo's "Fighting The Anti-King's Indians" (2008) book may be of good help in this setup with d6-c5-Be6-Qb6 if chosen..  Cool
  
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Re: Lines against the Torre/London for Grunfeld Player
Reply #5 - 12/05/11 at 11:58:48
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Here are some ideas:

You can contemplate playing 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 d5 when 3.c4 will get you positions you recognize.

After 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 g6 3.  Bf4 Bg7 4. e3 black has a good position. Consider playing d6-c5-Be6(taking away b3) and Qb6 hitting the abandoned b2-pawn. Another idea I like is to play a quick Nfd7-e5 and then follow with a general kingside-advance.

In the Torre 4.c4 doesnt look critical, simply 4..c5 looks good when white cannot bolster the a1-h8 diagonal with c3. The bishop on g7 is then a strong piece.

After 4.c3 black got different plans, one idea which is interesting is to play for the dark-squared bishop with h6-g5-Nh5-Nxg3 sooner or later.

  

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Re: Lines against the Torre/London for Grunfeld Player
Reply #4 - 12/04/11 at 03:19:29
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ErictheRed wrote on 12/02/11 at 23:49:09:
In general I like playing an early ...c5, usually followed up with ...d5 instead of the "King's Indian" ...d6 in these types of lines. 

Actually, I've recently started playing 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 c5!? right away to "punish" White for not sticking his pawn on c4.  Now anything other than 3.c4 and 3.d5 is very comfortable for Black who hasn't committed to ...e6 or ...g6 yet; it's something for you to consider, especially if you know your opponent always plays the d-pawn specials.


But with this line if White intends to play 3. c4 after 2...g6 instead of 2...c5, then Black eschews this possibility of transposing to the Grünfeld. 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 g6 3. c4 Bg7 4. Nc3 d5 could easily transpose to the Grünfeld.
  

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Re: Lines against the Torre/London for Grunfeld Player
Reply #3 - 12/02/11 at 23:49:09
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In general I like playing an early ...c5, usually followed up with ...d5 instead of the "King's Indian" ...d6 in these types of lines. 

Actually, I've recently started playing 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 c5!? right away to "punish" White for not sticking his pawn on c4.  Now anything other than 3.c4 and 3.d5 is very comfortable for Black who hasn't committed to ...e6 or ...g6 yet; it's something for you to consider, especially if you know your opponent always plays the d-pawn specials.
  
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Re: Lines against the Torre/London for Grunfeld Player
Reply #2 - 12/02/11 at 22:21:54
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Yes I did look but was unable to find any threads that addressed these questions.  I'm not saying they don't exist but I was unable to find them.
  
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Re: Lines against the Torre/London for Grunfeld Player
Reply #1 - 11/24/11 at 23:45:30
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I'm sure I've seen these questions before somewhere! You should look at some of the previous threads on the same subject, and then download Eric's London System and Torre playable eBooks from the main site. Wink
  
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Lines against the Torre/London for Grunfeld Player
11/24/11 at 21:33:28
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I play the grunfeld against the queens gambit, but have trouble in knowing what sort of setups to adopt against the London and Torre that are consistent with my repertoire. (And with the other d pawn deviates as well, but I see these two most often)

Ideas?
I start out 1. d4  Nf6 2.  Nf3  g6

London  3.  Bf4 Bg7 4. e3 (what to play?)

Torre 3. Bg5 Bg7  4. c4 (how to play here?)
                            4. c3 (?)

I looked in my database but there seems to be alot of choices.  My goal is to avoid getting move ordered somehow and to come out of the opening with a playable position.
  
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