Latest Updates:
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) C13: Alekhine-Chatard Attack Question (Read 13400 times)
Paddy
God Member
*****
Offline


The truth will out!

Posts: 923
Location: Manchester
Joined: 01/10/03
Gender: Male
Re: C13: Alekhine-Chatard Attack Question
Reply #14 - 04/18/12 at 12:56:13
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 04/16/12 at 20:58:54:
What does Eingorn recommend after 6...h6 7.Be3 c5 8.Qg4 ? You have convinced me that 8...Bf8 is too slow; 8...Kf8 feels uneasy but 8...g6 looks harder to crack. I guess I'll have to work my way through that old thread again.

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1107036355/0#0

Edit: a cute idea seems to be 6.h4 h6 7.Bf4 (iso 7.Be3) c5 8.Qg4 and 9.dxc5 with play somewhat similar to the Two Knights Variation 1.e4 e6 2.Nf3 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.Nf3 c5 6.dxc5 Nc6 7.Bf4.
White has lost a tempo with Bc1-g5-f4 but Black's extra tempo ...Be7 also allows the active Qg4 iso Qe2. The extra moves h4 and h6 prevent Black from castling, which also is in White's favour.
What do you guys think?


After 7 Be3 Eingorn has 7...g6; MNb - I've PMed you about this.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10551
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: C13: Alekhine-Chatard Attack Question
Reply #13 - 04/16/12 at 20:58:54
Post Tools
What does Eingorn recommend after 6...h6 7.Be3 c5 8.Qg4 ? You have convinced me that 8...Bf8 is too slow; 8...Kf8 feels uneasy but 8...g6 looks harder to crack. I guess I'll have to work my way through that old thread again.

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1107036355/0#0

Edit: a cute idea seems to be 6.h4 h6 7.Bf4 (iso 7.Be3) c5 8.Qg4 and 9.dxc5 with play somewhat similar to the Two Knights Variation 1.e4 e6 2.Nf3 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.Nf3 c5 6.dxc5 Nc6 7.Bf4.
White has lost a tempo with Bc1-g5-f4 but Black's extra tempo ...Be7 also allows the active Qg4 iso Qe2. The extra moves h4 and h6 prevent Black from castling, which also is in White's favour.
What do you guys think?
« Last Edit: 04/17/12 at 02:14:25 by MNb »  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paddy
God Member
*****
Offline


The truth will out!

Posts: 923
Location: Manchester
Joined: 01/10/03
Gender: Male
Re: C13: Alekhine-Chatard Attack Question
Reply #12 - 04/16/12 at 16:15:18
Post Tools
Paddy wrote on 12/05/11 at 18:50:35:
Anonymous3 wrote on 12/04/11 at 09:02:09:
I'm interested to hear your thoughts on the following line: 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 2.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Be7 5.e5 Nfd7 6.h4!? h6 (this move is generally thought to be dubious but I think it may good and I'm not sure if any of the other moves are satisfactory) 7.Be3 (This is generally considered to be the best move but 7.Bxe7 is much more popular even though Black is fine. After 7...Qxe7 8.Qg4, Black is fine with 8...0-0 and maybe 8...g6!? What do you think about 8...g6!?.) 7...c5 8.Qg4 g6 (This is actually slightly more popular than 8...Kf8 which I think is generally more well known and thought to be best but I think is slightly better for White). I've been analyzing this line with Fritz 11 and Rybka 3 and it's quite interesting and seems playable for Black. White can't currently exploit Black's weaknesses or breakthrough on the kingside and Black can get good counterplay on the Queenside and just leave his king in the center.


OK, I know that 6...h6 has been the recent choice of those two Classical French gurus Gleizerov and Ulibin, but on the whole it scores badly and seems to me to be hard to handle.

Why suffer with this when you can play the much more interesting 6...Nc6!? This line, played by Morozevich in the only two games I could find in which he has had to face 6 h4, is an unusual but combative response.

The main ideas behind this move are:
a) develop quickly;
b) put pressure on d4 to deter Qh5;
c) prepare ...f6 by overprotecting e7; *
d) facilitate queenside castling via ...Nb6, ...Bd7 and ...Qe7, as an alternative to the quick ...f6 plan.

* Compare this with the line 6...f6 7 Qh5+ g6? 8 exf6! and if 8...gxh5 9 fxe7 regaining the queen with a much superior structure.


I notice that 6...h6 is the ONLY line against the Chatard given in the new book "A Rock-Solid Chess Opening Repertoire for Black" by Eingorn, so maybe it's time to re-open the discussion.

By the way, Gleizerov has still been playing 6...h6 this year.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
aiorla
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


Computers are our friends!

Posts: 4
Location: Barcelona, Catalonia
Joined: 10/08/10
Gender: Male
Re: C13: Alekhine-Chatard Attack Question
Reply #11 - 12/08/11 at 17:07:00
Post Tools
MartinC wrote on 12/08/11 at 16:35:40:
Ok Smiley Did you mean to end the game at move 19 though? It just seems an odd place to stop.


Yes, he offered me draw and I accepted doubtlessly because I had many games on. Possibly he was in the same situation like me and wanted to finish this game quickly, I don't know.
I spent some time looking for winning lines but I didn't see any convincing for black (me) so I decided to ensure half point...
If I remember well my lasts analysis reached only drawing bishop endgames or forcing variations to threefold repetitions.  Undecided
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MartinC
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 2004
Joined: 07/24/06
Re: C13: Alekhine-Chatard Attack Question
Reply #10 - 12/08/11 at 16:35:40
Post Tools
Ok Smiley Did you mean to end the game at move 19 though? It just seems an odd place to stop.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
aiorla
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


Computers are our friends!

Posts: 4
Location: Barcelona, Catalonia
Joined: 10/08/10
Gender: Male
Re: C13: Alekhine-Chatard Attack Question
Reply #9 - 12/08/11 at 15:07:13
Post Tools
MartinC wrote on 12/08/11 at 11:38:22:
Seems an interesting place to stop that Smiley Horribly unclear still, and far from obviously OK for black.

As an aside, isn't the sort of ending after 14 Nd4 much more 'boring' for black than white? Suppose that it must be much easier to defend that sort of thing in correspondence.


Yes, I suppose that white didn't like the endgame,which was boring as you said but also quite simple to defend for black in a correspondence game. I also believe that he didn't calculate that b3 would help me to speed my offensive with forcing moves like Na4 instead of giving him some tempos in order to finish his kingside plans.

And I also agree with you that h6 is not a pleasant defense for black but other moves are pretty dangerous too. In my opinion Alekhine-Chatard Attack is a really powerful system against french if you know what you're doing!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MartinC
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 2004
Joined: 07/24/06
Re: C13: Alekhine-Chatard Attack Question
Reply #8 - 12/08/11 at 11:38:22
Post Tools
Seems an interesting place to stop that Smiley Horribly unclear still, and far from obviously OK for black.

As an aside, isn't the sort of ending after 14 Nd4 much more 'boring' for black than white? Suppose that it must be much easier to defend that sort of thing in correspondence.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
aiorla
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


Computers are our friends!

Posts: 4
Location: Barcelona, Catalonia
Joined: 10/08/10
Gender: Male
Re: C13: Alekhine-Chatard Attack Question
Reply #7 - 12/08/11 at 10:49:28
Post Tools
Well, I've played a correspondence game with h6 line recently, so it may interest you...

I didn't many problems (engines are really helpful in this kind of tactical games) but I had to attack really fast in order to get half a point because my king had no safe place. (h6 would have been a weakness if I had castled)



I think that 14.b3?! allows me to get the attacking/drawish positions but white didn't have many options because Nd4 would have entered in a really boring endgame after exchanging queens. Other moves would probably have allowed me to continue my queenside plans.

It's a really difficult variant to play, white has an extremely easy attack in the kingside and black has to play sharply so as to acquire some counterplay...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paddy
God Member
*****
Offline


The truth will out!

Posts: 923
Location: Manchester
Joined: 01/10/03
Gender: Male
Re: C13: Alekhine-Chatard Attack Question
Reply #6 - 12/07/11 at 18:15:05
Post Tools
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 12/06/11 at 01:54:59:
Paddy! Angry

I tried to ask a couple questions about 6...Nc6 a couple of years ago but found few who were interested. That persuaded me to take it up seriously and I've had a string of successes at every time control as a result.

And here you go, bringing it up again!  Angry


Hi SF, I've PMed you about this.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
YaBB Moderator
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: C13: Alekhine-Chatard Attack Question
Reply #5 - 12/06/11 at 01:54:59
Post Tools
Paddy! Angry

I tried to ask a couple questions about 6...Nc6 a couple of years ago but found few who were interested. That persuaded me to take it up seriously and I've had a string of successes at every time control as a result.

And here you go, bringing it up again!  Angry
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paddy
God Member
*****
Offline


The truth will out!

Posts: 923
Location: Manchester
Joined: 01/10/03
Gender: Male
Re: C13: Alekhine-Chatard Attack Question
Reply #4 - 12/05/11 at 18:50:35
Post Tools
Anonymous3 wrote on 12/04/11 at 09:02:09:
I'm interested to hear your thoughts on the following line: 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 2.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Be7 5.e5 Nfd7 6.h4!? h6 (this move is generally thought to be dubious but I think it may good and I'm not sure if any of the other moves are satisfactory) 7.Be3 (This is generally considered to be the best move but 7.Bxe7 is much more popular even though Black is fine. After 7...Qxe7 8.Qg4, Black is fine with 8...0-0 and maybe 8...g6!? What do you think about 8...g6!?.) 7...c5 8.Qg4 g6 (This is actually slightly more popular than 8...Kf8 which I think is generally more well known and thought to be best but I think is slightly better for White). I've been analyzing this line with Fritz 11 and Rybka 3 and it's quite interesting and seems playable for Black. White can't currently exploit Black's weaknesses or breakthrough on the kingside and Black can get good counterplay on the Queenside and just leave his king in the center.


OK, I know that 6...h6 has been the recent choice of those two Classical French gurus Gleizerov and Ulibin, but on the whole it scores badly and seems to me to be hard to handle.

Why suffer with this when you can play the much more interesting 6...Nc6!? This line, played by Morozevich in the only two games I could find in which he has had to face 6 h4, is an unusual but combative response.

The main ideas behind this move are:
a) develop quickly;
b) put pressure on d4 to deter Qh5;
c) prepare ...f6 by overprotecting e7; *
d) facilitate queenside castling via ...Nb6, ...Bd7 and ...Qe7, as an alternitive to the quick ...f6 plan.

* Compare this with the line 6...f6 7 Qh5+ g6? 8 exf6! and if 8...gxh5 9 fxe7 regaining the queen with a much superior structure.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
bigbelly
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline



Posts: 26
Location: Minnesota, USA
Joined: 01/18/09
Gender: Male
Re: C13: Alekhine-Chatard Attack Question
Reply #3 - 12/04/11 at 18:38:01
Post Tools
Exchanging bishops is good for Black according to Gufeld.

Gufeld does cite the game Hellers-Bareev Gausdal 1986 where Blacl played 8..g6.

The ..g6 line looks scary for both sides to me.
  

1d4!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
PANFR
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 251
Location: Greece
Joined: 10/31/11
Gender: Male
Re: C13: Alekhine-Chatard Attack Question
Reply #2 - 12/04/11 at 13:49:51
Post Tools
8.f4 is almost surely the best move, where the insertion of the moves h4 and h6 is to White's interest.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
dom
YaBB Moderator
*****
Offline



Posts: 908
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 01/11/03
Gender: Male
Re: C13: Alekhine-Chatard Attack Question
Reply #1 - 12/04/11 at 12:34:54
Post Tools
As White I will prefer to play:

6..h6 7.Bxe7 Qxe7 8.f4 oo (8...c5 9.Nb5) 9.Qd2 (or 9.Nf3) c5 (transposing to one analyzed line in chesspub database) 10.Nf3 Nc6  and now 11.ooo (instead of 11.dxc5 or g4) a6 (11...f6 12.exf6 Nxf6 13.g3 a6 14.Bg2) 12.g4 b5 13.Kb1 Bb7 14.Ne2
  

“Learn from the mistakes of others. You can never live long enough to make them all yourself.”  - Groucho Marx
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Anonymous3
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 305
Joined: 08/15/08
C13: Alekhine-Chatard Attack Question
12/04/11 at 09:02:09
Post Tools
I'm interested to hear your thoughts on the following line: 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 2.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Be7 5.e5 Nfd7 6.h4!? h6 (this move is generally thought to be dubious but I think it may good and I'm not sure if any of the other moves are satisfactory) 7.Be3 (This is generally considered to be the best move but 7.Bxe7 is much more popular even though Black is fine. After 7...Qxe7 8.Qg4, Black is fine with 8...0-0 and maybe 8...g6!? What do you think about 8...g6!?.) 7...c5 8.Qg4 g6 (This is actually slightly more popular than 8...Kf8 which I think is generally more well known and thought to be best but I think is slightly better for White). I've been analyzing this line with Fritz 11 and Rybka 3 and it's quite interesting and seems playable for Black. White can't currently exploit Black's weaknesses or breakthrough on the kingside and Black can get good counterplay on the Queenside and just leave his king in the center.
« Last Edit: 12/04/11 at 10:46:36 by dom »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo