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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) English Symmetrical, Fischer setup recommendations (Read 32007 times)
kylemeister
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Re: English Symmetrical, Fischer setup recommendations
Reply #39 - 05/12/15 at 16:47:18
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I notice that a game Gunnarsson-Golod 2002 transposed via 5. h4 h6 6. Nf3 e6 7. d4, with Black opting for the ...Nxd4 approach (it was won by White, who was playing up about 250 points).
  
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TonyRo
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Re: English Symmetrical, Fischer setup recommendations
Reply #38 - 05/12/15 at 14:41:59
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I have been looking a bit at the Fischer System lately (for White), and came up with an interesting idea. I don't think it's groundbreaking or anything, but an interesting practical weapon nonetheless. I thought that after 1.c4 c5 2.g3 g6 3.Bg2 Bg7 4.Nc3 Nc6 5.Nf3 e6 6.h4!? was interesting. My idea is that after the most played (and thematic) move 6...h6 we can play into the common isolani lines after 7.d4 cxd4 8.Nb5 d5 9.cxd5 exd5 10.O-O Nge7 11.Bf4 O-O 12.Nfxd4, etc.

My thought was that eventually White would grab a free tempo with Qd2, and that perhaps the insertion of h4/h6 favors White somewhat. Maybe White is a smidge better, or at least he can claim that he's reached a position that is somewhat atypical of the Fischer System. The only game to feature 6.h4 and 7.d4 is recent, and favored White for sure:



Black can play 6...h5 instead, but then maybe White should prefer 11.Bg5, I dunno, really just started to look at it. Thoughts?
  
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Vass
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Re: English Symmetrical, Fischer setup recommendations
Reply #37 - 03/08/14 at 09:03:00
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BladezII wrote on 03/08/14 at 08:49:43:
I have a question, or perhaps, a proposal for discussion here --

What about this deviation by black on move 6... 


1. Nf3 c5 2. c4 Nc6 3. g3 g6 4. Bg2 Bg7 5. Nc3 e6

6. d3 d5

Before White has the chance to play Bg5.

Any thoughts ?




As it seems to me...it only transposes to the main line after 7.Bg5 Nge7  Undecided
  
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BladezII
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Re: English Symmetrical, Fischer setup recommendations
Reply #36 - 03/08/14 at 08:49:43
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I have a question, or perhaps, a proposal for discussion here --

What about this deviation by black on move 6... 


1. Nf3 c5 2. c4 Nc6 3. g3 g6 4. Bg2 Bg7 5. Nc3 e6

6. d3 d5

Before White has the chance to play Bg5.

Any thoughts ?



  

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Re: English Symmetrical, Fischer setup recommendations
Reply #35 - 02/28/14 at 01:35:13
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BabySnake wrote on 12/06/11 at 11:03:28:
I had forgotten but then remembered when I came back to this thread that an opponent of mine a while age did choose the exact same set-up and move order (8. Bd2 b6 9. a3 Bb7)  which to me after more thought seems to put the ball back into white's court regarding the Marin/Jobava approach vs the Fischer set-up. So I totally agree with Vass....I'm stumped!

I still think Marin's books are fantastic, but he covers so much new ground that of course he can not possibly foresee all possibilities!  Grin





The problem with Marin's book is that is it did not use heavy computer assistance to check some lines.  The book faces so many problems because some move orders do not hold their integrity when checked with our silicon partners.

Another GM who caught very many problems with Marin's book is GM Delchev.  The list is very vast.

Marin needed a good team of assistants to check his lines and he needed to use more computer assistance.
  

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TonyRo
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Re: English Symmetrical, Fischer setup recommendations
Reply #34 - 02/27/14 at 02:47:44
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Yes, Watson's coverage of this line was quite good, and reasonably convincing from a practical perspective (like you said).
  
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Ametanoitos
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Re: English Symmetrical, Fischer setup recommendations
Reply #33 - 02/21/14 at 09:39:41
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My problem with this as Black is that i'll have zero winning chances, while at the slightlest inaccuracy White will have an overwelming position. Looking at Watson's coverage of this line in his "Mastering" series, i see that White has also a choice of promising continuations! For a practical player i don't see why he has to look smething more than this actually.
  
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Re: English Symmetrical, Fischer setup recommendations
Reply #32 - 02/21/14 at 03:00:38
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Ametanoitos wrote on 02/20/14 at 22:47:10:
White has some initiative in the symmetrical variation with e3+Ne2+d4. Isn't this enough for an edge at least in OTB play?


This was always my opinion as well. When I looked at it a year ago or so, I thought White had annoying play and reasonable practical chances, but that Black could prove equality with precise play. Surprise!

Grin
  
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Re: English Symmetrical, Fischer setup recommendations
Reply #31 - 02/20/14 at 22:47:10
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White has some initiative in the symmetrical variation with e3+Ne2+d4. Isn't this enough for an edge at least in OTB play?
  
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Vass
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Re: English Symmetrical, Fischer setup recommendations
Reply #30 - 01/13/14 at 22:49:05
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Thank you, thank you, thank you people!  Grin
By the way, looking at games like these, one may think they're not substantial. After all, draws on 13-th move?!?
In fact, a good correspondence chess player spends many, many days to analyze the posible continuations. And the fact that both players agreed to draw, after all, means that the position is completely equal. Equal, yes, but full of life for an OTB game.  Wink
  
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fling
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Re: English Symmetrical, Fischer setup recommendations
Reply #29 - 01/13/14 at 21:09:22
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Thanks for posting some miniature games  Grin
  
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Vass
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Re: English Symmetrical, Fischer setup recommendations
Reply #28 - 01/13/14 at 19:34:43
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fling wrote on 01/13/14 at 16:30:58:
Lol, well, I am preparing to give it a shot. Who knows what I might stumble upon as Black :-D

You won't be disappointed. Here are my last correspondence (mini) games:





This line seems to be completely harmless. I've spent hours and hours to find even a tiny edge for black or white, with no success. It seems my opponents came to the same conclusion.  Wink
  
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fling
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Re: English Symmetrical, Fischer setup recommendations
Reply #27 - 01/13/14 at 16:30:58
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Lol, well, I am preparing to give it a shot. Who knows what I might stumble upon as Black :-D
  
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Vass
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Re: English Symmetrical, Fischer setup recommendations
Reply #26 - 01/13/14 at 08:55:01
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fling wrote on 01/12/14 at 21:40:33:
Vass, did you come up with something more substantial?


You said it here already:

fling wrote on 11/30/12 at 12:40:28:
... I guess the Fischer system is alive and kicking I guess.


Wink
  
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Re: English Symmetrical, Fischer setup recommendations
Reply #25 - 01/12/14 at 21:40:33
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Vass, did you come up with something more substantial?
  
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Re: English Symmetrical, Fischer setup recommendations
Reply #24 - 12/05/12 at 18:48:24
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Very instructive game you have dig up Vass!  Highlight the weakness of an early Qc1 with fast Rc8 and fast d5. Nd4 hits the temporary weakness on b3.
  
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Vass
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Re: English Symmetrical, Fischer setup recommendations
Reply #23 - 12/05/12 at 14:40:37
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Mange wrote on 12/05/12 at 14:34:45:
Hi
This is my first post ever on chesspub.
I got hit by 7.Bg5 a few weeks ago at local club championship. I very much suspected my opponent had Marvin grandmasters book as  7.Bd2 (or 0-0) would been more in my opponets playing style. I didn’t play 7.-h6 as I couldn’t slove 7.-h6 8.Bd2 b6 9. Qc1!?. White will follow up with 0-0 and standard a3, b4, Rb1 and asking black how his going to castle. OTB I couldn’t find any good way to castle for black with h6 target as knight will not be stable on f5 (after e4).   Undecided
I went for 7.-b6!? And my opponent played 8.Qc1 anyway but without pawn on h6 it was nothing for white (if 8.d4 I would have play 8.-h6! 9.Bxe7 Nxe7!?).

So maybe 9.Qc1!? improve on a3 in Vass corr. Game?   

Welcome to the forum, Mange!
Smiley

Nice try!
Look what I have found:

  
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Re: English Symmetrical, Fischer setup recommendations
Reply #22 - 12/05/12 at 14:34:45
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Hi
This is my first post ever on chesspub.
I got hit by 7.Bg5 a few weeks ago at local club championship. I very much suspected my opponent had Marvin grandmasters book as  7.Bd2 (or 0-0) would been more in my opponets playing style. I didn’t play 7.-h6 as I couldn’t slove 7.-h6 8.Bd2 b6 9. Qc1!?. White will follow up with 0-0 and standard a3, b4, Rb1 and asking black how his going to castle. OTB I couldn’t find any good way to castle for black with h6 target as knight will not be stable on f5 (after e4).   Undecided
I went for 7.-b6!? And my opponent played 8.Qc1 anyway but without pawn on h6 it was nothing for white (if 8.d4 I would have play 8.-h6! 9.Bxe7 Nxe7!?).

So maybe 9.Qc1!? improve on a3 in Vass corr. Game?   
  
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Vass
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Re: English Symmetrical, Fischer setup recommendations
Reply #21 - 11/30/12 at 14:25:12
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And I wanted to play it as white..  Undecided
  
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fling
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Re: English Symmetrical, Fischer setup recommendations
Reply #20 - 11/30/12 at 14:14:31
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Vass wrote on 11/30/12 at 13:42:52:
fling wrote on 11/30/12 at 12:53:16:
What about 14. b5 instead of 14. e3 as in the Henrichs-Fontaine game? The point is that the knight will be a bit off on a5, or on the pawn structure worse after 14 ...Ne5 15. Nxe5 dxe5. I found the game Thiede-Siebrecht, 2012 that continued this way (well, White lost after a blunder, and I am not sure it is better). It is at least different from the other games in which White has been run over on the kingside.

14.b5 Nd4! 15.Nxd4 cxd4 16.Na2 a5 17.bxa6 Bxg2 18.Kxg2 Rxa6 and the problems for black are none.. For example, 19.Nb4 Ra4 20.Qb2 Rfa8 ...and I want to be the second player here.  Wink


Right, missed that. Well, my plan is actually to use this system as Black as a refreshing change from the Botvinnik set-ups I have played recently. This analysis goes to show that White seems to have at least as many problems to solve as Black.
  
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Vass
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Re: English Symmetrical, Fischer setup recommendations
Reply #19 - 11/30/12 at 13:42:52
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fling wrote on 11/30/12 at 12:53:16:
What about 14. b5 instead of 14. e3 as in the Henrichs-Fontaine game? The point is that the knight will be a bit off on a5, or on the pawn structure worse after 14 ...Ne5 15. Nxe5 dxe5. I found the game Thiede-Siebrecht, 2012 that continued this way (well, White lost after a blunder, and I am not sure it is better). It is at least different from the other games in which White has been run over on the kingside.

14.b5 Nd4! 15.Nxd4 cxd4 16.Na2 a5 17.bxa6 Bxg2 18.Kxg2 Rxa6 and the problems for black are none.. For example, 19.Nb4 Ra4 20.Qb2 Rfa8 ...and I want to be the second player here.  Wink
  
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Re: English Symmetrical, Fischer setup recommendations
Reply #18 - 11/30/12 at 12:53:16
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What about 14. b5 instead of 14. e3 as in the Henrichs-Fontaine game? The point is that the knight will be a bit off on a5, or on the pawn structure worse after 14 ...Ne5 15. Nxe5 dxe5. I found the game Thiede-Siebrecht, 2012 that continued this way (well, White lost after a blunder, and I am not sure it is better). It is at least different from the other games in which White has been run over on the kingside.
  
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Re: English Symmetrical, Fischer setup recommendations
Reply #17 - 11/30/12 at 12:40:28
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I see. I guess the Fischer system is alive and kicking I guess.
  
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Vass
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Re: English Symmetrical, Fischer setup recommendations
Reply #16 - 11/30/12 at 11:54:07
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9.Rb1!? is a good try and maybe a novelty in this exact position. Nevertheless, after the logical 9....Bb7! threatening Nc6-d4, therefore 10.0-0 is necessary.. 10...0-0 11.a3 d6 (or d5) 12.b4 Qd7 and we're back on the tracks..
As for 11.Rb1 d6! 12.Qc1 I have found only two games which I combined in this one:



Undecided

By the way, this year a new move (13.Ne1!?) was made by Liu, Chang (ELO: 2336, U18 at WCh, Maribor, Slovenia) in this known position:



Liu won, but not convincingly.. So, I think there are still some blank spots where improvements can be found..  Cool

EDIT: ...And no, Marin never commented on the position you mention..  Roll Eyes
  
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Re: English Symmetrical, Fischer setup recommendations
Reply #15 - 11/30/12 at 08:47:59
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After 16 ...Qb8, the position looks kinda like a Hedgehog but with d-pawns on. I can't believe White have enough compensation after this.

What did you think about 9. Rb1 instead of 9.a3? Will this still transpose into the main lines.

Or after 11. Rb1 d5 12. Qc1, which would be Jobava-Alekseev, 2006. There is your tempo. I guess in that case, critical would be 11 ...d6 instead, when everybody has played 12. b4. What is your analysis after 12. Qc1? I haven't checked if Marin has commented on this position.
  
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Re: English Symmetrical, Fischer setup recommendations
Reply #14 - 11/30/12 at 07:38:23
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fling wrote on 11/29/12 at 22:20:33:
Vass wrote on 12/05/11 at 13:42:20:
Nothing left except 10. 0-0 0-0 11. Qc1 Na5 12. Qc2 Nac6 13. Rab1 d6 14. b4 Qd7 and black is OK. And where did I go wrong?  Huh


Is there a reason three relatively strong players all played 11 ...Kh7 instead of 11 ...Na5? They couldn't all have missed that Na5 threatens a fork, could they? Or is it not dangerous for White somehow?

Who knows?  Roll Eyes
Maybe they just didn't want to draw the game after, say, 11...Na5 12.Qc2 Nac6 13.Qc1 Na5
Or maybe they feared of a possible white attack after 11...Na5 12.Bxh6!? Nb3 13.Qf4 Bxh6 14.Qxh6 Nf5 15.Qf4 Nxa1 16.Rxa1 where white definitely has some compensation for the exchange..
I'm sure that 12.Bxh6!? is playable over the board, but in a high level correspondence chess game white has to be confident of playing it. In other words, this position needs to be heavy analysed. What about 16...Qb8(!?) afterwards?  Wink
  
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Re: English Symmetrical, Fischer setup recommendations
Reply #13 - 11/29/12 at 22:20:33
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Vass wrote on 12/05/11 at 13:42:20:
Nothing left except 10. 0-0 0-0 11. Qc1 Na5 12. Qc2 Nac6 13. Rab1 d6 14. b4 Qd7 and black is OK. And where did I go wrong?  Huh


Is there a reason three relatively strong players all played 11 ...Kh7 instead of 11 ...Na5? They couldn't all have missed that Na5 threatens a fork, could they? Or is it not dangerous for White somehow?
  
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Re: English Symmetrical, Fischer setup recommendations
Reply #12 - 11/26/12 at 17:40:19
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I just started reading the English - Move by move and Giddins has not picked up on this move order subtlety. In fact, there is much praise for Marin's set-up.

John Bartholomew, sorry if I missed it, but have you covered this recently or will you perhaps do it? It would be great!
  
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Re: English Symmetrical, Fischer setup recommendations
Reply #11 - 12/08/11 at 09:02:14
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Marin's books are really good,  but I do not trust on some major lines Marin gives, e.g. 1.c4 Nf6 2.g3 c6 is easy for black. Here I play either 2.e4 or go to a standard slav. 1.c4 c5 2.Nf3 and 3.Nc3 seems better for fighting on the opening advantage than 2.g3 (2.-Nc6 3.-Nd4 being one of better lines for black). I like to play the english dynamically,  many Marin lines are too silent and sophisticated for me.

Marin lost in a recent game horribly in the 1.c4 Nf6 2.g3 e6 3.Bg2 d5 4.Nf3 dc  -line. He seems now to have given up playing 1.c4 altogether. He plays now 1.d4 2.Nf3 and then usually Colle-Zukertort.

« Last Edit: 12/08/11 at 10:20:02 by Sauron »  

1.Nf3! -  beat your opponent by killing his zest for life.
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Re: English Symmetrical, Fischer setup recommendations
Reply #10 - 12/08/11 at 05:13:44
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Promising move order for Black.  At first I thought 8...b6 9.h4!? Bb7 10.h5 g5 11.Nxg5 was worth considering, ala Radjabov-Ivanchuk, but then I realized we're just down a tempo compared to that game   Undecided  I don't think White has much better than 9.0-0, which doesn't pose many problems.  Btw, in addition to 9.a3 Bb7, 9.a3 d5 should also be very good for Black.

Judging from the database it looks like a few good players have cued into 8...b6 in 2011 (IM Altounian the first to play it OTB?).

Definitely not easy to get an edge vs. the Fischer setup.  Probably the best strategy is to switch things up from time to time on move 6 (lots of White alternatives here) or 7 (7.h4!?), or even move 5 if you want to escape Marin territory.
  
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Re: English Symmetrical, Fischer setup recommendations
Reply #9 - 12/06/11 at 23:32:42
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BabySnake wrote on 12/06/11 at 11:03:28:
I still think Marin's books are fantastic, but he covers so much new ground that of course he can not possibly foresee all possibilities!  Grin




I fully agree with you!..  Lips Sealed
  
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Re: English Symmetrical, Fischer setup recommendations
Reply #8 - 12/06/11 at 23:30:26
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 12/06/11 at 10:17:16:
(Just to be clear, this game is over, isn't it?  I'd hate to discuss a game in progress.)

Completely over!  Smiley
  
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Re: English Symmetrical, Fischer setup recommendations
Reply #7 - 12/06/11 at 11:03:28
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I had forgotten but then remembered when I came back to this thread that an opponent of mine a while age did choose the exact same set-up and move order (8. Bd2 b6 9. a3 Bb7)  which to me after more thought seems to put the ball back into white's court regarding the Marin/Jobava approach vs the Fischer set-up. So I totally agree with Vass....I'm stumped!

I still think Marin's books are fantastic, but he covers so much new ground that of course he can not possibly foresee all possibilities!  Grin



  
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Re: English Symmetrical, Fischer setup recommendations
Reply #6 - 12/06/11 at 10:17:16
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(Just to be clear, this game is over, isn't it?  I'd hate to discuss a game in progress.)
  
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Re: English Symmetrical, Fischer setup recommendations
Reply #5 - 12/05/11 at 17:30:28
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Yes!.. And such approach as this one of my opponent's is to be considered, too.. Black seems to be OK in all lines, especially with b7-b6 and Bc8-b7 before 0-0 is made..  Wink
  
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Re: English Symmetrical, Fischer setup recommendations
Reply #4 - 12/05/11 at 17:24:44
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Vass wrote on 12/05/11 at 16:10:04:
Come on, guys!.. Your fearless 10.Rb1 can be easily met by Nc6-d4 (a standart threat in such setups) and the white bishop on g2 is not defended.. While 10.0-0 0-0 11.Rb1 goes into the main line where black is OK choosing between d7-d5 or d7-d6 setups. In fact, the Marin's intention was to avoid the main line's equality with an early Qc1 and b2-b4 as per some Jobava games..  Wink


I remember the idea (hitting h6), but I haven't really looked at it in detail. Apparently, Marin might not have done that either. On the other hand, in some of the lines he looks at, I wasn't convinced that White had such an edge. The queen on c1 might still have to move, thus giving the tempo back. I don't remember on top of my head which variation it was. I have to check my notes.

Maybe Black is ok after all in these lines. I have actually been thinking of playing the Fischer setup even after looking at Marin's analysis.
  
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Re: English Symmetrical, Fischer setup recommendations
Reply #3 - 12/05/11 at 16:10:04
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Come on, guys!.. Your fearless 10.Rb1 can be easily met by Nc6-d4 (a standart threat in such setups) and the white bishop on g2 is not defended.. While 10.0-0 0-0 11.Rb1 goes into the main line where black is OK choosing between d7-d5 or d7-d6 setups. In fact, the Marin's intention was to avoid the main line's equality with an early Qc1 and b2-b4 as per some Jobava games..  Wink
  
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Re: English Symmetrical, Fischer setup recommendations
Reply #2 - 12/05/11 at 15:23:42
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Yes, Rb1 looks pretty thematic, either before or after castling.
  
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BabySnake
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Re: English Symmetrical, Fischer setup recommendations
Reply #1 - 12/05/11 at 14:59:17
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How about 11.Rb1. If 11.-Na5 then 12.b4.
  
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Vass
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English Symmetrical, Fischer setup recommendations
12/05/11 at 13:42:20
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Hi all!
As a first player in one of my recent correspondence chess games I followed the Jobava-Marin's approach to meet the so-called Fischer setup as it follows:

And here Marin gives only 8... 0-0 9. a3 (delaying 0-0 for some time) 9... b6 10. Rb1 and if 10... Bb7 11. Qc1! (N) gaining a tempo attacking the h6-pawn, followed by 12. b4 with some real chances for +=  Wink
Great!.. And I fully agree with him. But,... My opponent as black followed a slightly different move order:

And suddenly I realised that I was out of my preparation..  Cheesy Where is my Qc1 gaining a tempo?!  Shocked Nothing left except 10. 0-0 0-0 11. Qc1 Na5 12. Qc2 Nac6 13. Rab1 d6 14. b4 Qd7 and black is OK. And where did I go wrong?  Huh
  
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