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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Emms 'Play the Open Games as Black' (Read 13223 times)
TopNotch
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Re: Emms 'Play the Open Games as Black'
Reply #17 - 01/15/12 at 21:17:07
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Schaakhamster wrote on 01/04/12 at 14:04:07:
Let's take the quote from Aagaard in question (http://www.qualitychess.co.uk/blog/?p=442#comment-1263)

Quote:
But the problem is that there, to use an example, was NOTHING in the Vigus book that challenged the repertoire.
Play the Open Games was well out of date and the moves not computer checked. I disagree that there was relevance with this one.
The Kaufman book was, as far as I remember, not out when Marin wrote his book. Fortune telling is not a speciality of ours  .
Obviously we have missed ideas and sources – but as far as I can see, not in these cases.


The truth is in between: Aagaard dismissed it because it wasn't relevant, due to being outdated and not computer checked. So anon3 interprets these statements too harshly but there is some ground to it.

Later on in the comments someone also points out that Kaufman was published 3 years prior to Marin's book.

My take: Aagaard doesn't take kindly to criticism (which has been an ongoing trend in his communication). Both books should have been considered for Marin's book (they all are excellent books btw), considering Quality Chess status as the flagship chess book publisher (which they have earned fair and square). 

MNB, why do you react so violently to anon3? It seems a bit out proportion. I would just have asked himself to back his words by proving them.



The implication I inferred by Aagaard's defensive comments back then was that the Emms book was old and unreliable and not worth consulting as a source.

There is no doubt that Quality Chess is an excellent publisher with a stable of high class writers, nevertheless if there is a weakness, it is their practice of often not listing or consulting available sources which sometimes smacks of arrogance, as if the author is trying to say I don't need sources I know all.

Having said all that and reviewing plenty of Aagaard's posts and even his writing style (His contribution in Experts against The Anti Sicilians, springs to mind) seems to be very much toungue in cheek, some would even say pessimistic or sarcastic, but one should note that his writing/comments also contains plenty self recrimination.

Maybe not a diplomat, but he certainly says what is on his mind, and I find his candor and frankness quite refreshing at times.

Tops Smiley
  

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ghenghisclown
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Re: Emms 'Play the Open Games as Black'
Reply #16 - 01/15/12 at 18:45:23
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I agree as well...
  

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Anonymous3
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Re: Emms 'Play the Open Games as Black'
Reply #15 - 01/14/12 at 22:49:23
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Schaakhamster wrote on 01/04/12 at 14:04:07:
Let's take the quote from Aagaard in question (http://www.qualitychess.co.uk/blog/?p=442#comment-1263)

Quote:
But the problem is that there, to use an example, was NOTHING in the Vigus book that challenged the repertoire.
Play the Open Games was well out of date and the moves not computer checked. I disagree that there was relevance with this one.
The Kaufman book was, as far as I remember, not out when Marin wrote his book. Fortune telling is not a speciality of ours  .
Obviously we have missed ideas and sources – but as far as I can see, not in these cases.


The truth is in between: Aagaard dismissed it because it wasn't relevant, due to being outdated and not computer checked. So anon3 interprets these statements too harshly but there is some ground to it.

Later on in the comments someone also points out that Kaufman was published 3 years prior to Marin's book.

My take: Aagaard doesn't take kindly to criticism (which has been an ongoing trend in his communication). Both books should have been considered for Marin's book (they all are excellent books btw), considering Quality Chess status as the flagship chess book publisher (which they have earned fair and square). 

MNB, why do you react so violently to anon3? It seems a bit out proportion. I would just have asked himself to back his words by proving them.



Couldn't agree more!
  
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SWJediknight
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Re: Emms 'Play the Open Games as Black'
Reply #14 - 01/06/12 at 16:05:40
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Markovich wrote on 01/05/12 at 22:45:15:
Concerning the Scotch, I thought I recalled that Emms advocated 3...Nf6 4.Nxc6 bxc6 5.e5 Qe7 6.Qe2 Nd5 7.c4 Nb6. Am I wrong? Further I believe this line holds up today.

Yes, he did. 

I remember John Watson suggesting that he didn't think John Emms's lines against Kasparov's approach gave "a true equaliser", so perhaps some of the sub-variations may need updating.  Also, Emms himself gave some recommendations for White in his "Starting Out: the Scotch Game" (2005).  However, as far as I'm aware the variation up to and including 8.c4 Nb6 is still widely regarded as a critical test of the Scotch, having had quite a few tests at super-GM level last year, so I doubt that wholesale changes are needed.
  
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MNb
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Re: Emms 'Play the Open Games as Black'
Reply #13 - 01/06/12 at 00:46:37
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SWJediknight wrote on 01/03/12 at 22:26:22:
The one thing that I did find inconsistent was the main recommendation against the Danish of 3...dxc3 4.Bc4 cxb2 5.Bxb2 d5"!", while missing the fact that 5...Nc6 leaves White with nothing better than 6.Nf3 transposing directly to his recommended lines against the Göring double-pawn sacrifice.

That's what I meant. But it has been a few years since I saw the book, so my memory was a bit vague.
For the record: the only Quality Chess book I own is Alterman's Gambit Guide, bought 1˝ years ago. So Aagaard attempt to brainwash me hasn't been too successfull.
  

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Re: Emms 'Play the Open Games as Black'
Reply #12 - 01/05/12 at 22:45:15
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Dear me, is what Aagaard said or didn't say, thinks or doesn't think, really important enough to give rise to all this heat? Would it not be more constructive to talk about the actual strengths and weaknesses of the subject book?

But I really think it's a bit much to call Aagaard ignorant and say that people here have been brainwashed by him, don't you, anonymous3? Those allegations are so ridiculous that they don't even require deletion. Please, nothing more ad hominem. And please stop telling people that you don't care what they think. Why post here at all if that's the case?

Personally I think it't a very fine book, and I would be happy to see a new edition. Of course, opening books do very often make recommendations with which I disagree, and this one is no exception.  But on the whole I have always considered it very sound.

Concerning the Scotch, I thought I recalled that Emms advocated 3...Nf6 4.Nxc6 bxc6 5.e5 Qe7 6.Qe2 Nd5 7.c4 Nb6. Am I wrong? Further I believe this line holds up today.
  

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Anonymous3
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Re: Emms 'Play the Open Games as Black'
Reply #11 - 01/04/12 at 21:47:17
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Thank you Schaakhamster!
  
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Schaakhamster
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Re: Emms 'Play the Open Games as Black'
Reply #10 - 01/04/12 at 14:04:07
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Let's take the quote from Aagaard in question (http://www.qualitychess.co.uk/blog/?p=442#comment-1263)

Quote:
But the problem is that there, to use an example, was NOTHING in the Vigus book that challenged the repertoire.
Play the Open Games was well out of date and the moves not computer checked. I disagree that there was relevance with this one.
The Kaufman book was, as far as I remember, not out when Marin wrote his book. Fortune telling is not a speciality of ours  .
Obviously we have missed ideas and sources – but as far as I can see, not in these cases.


The truth is in between: Aagaard dismissed it because it wasn't relevant, due to being outdated and not computer checked. So anon3 interprets these statements too harshly but there is some ground to it.

Later on in the comments someone also points out that Kaufman was published 3 years prior to Marin's book.

My take: Aagaard doesn't take kindly to criticism (which has been an ongoing trend in his communication). Both books should have been considered for Marin's book (they all are excellent books btw), considering Quality Chess status as the flagship chess book publisher (which they have earned fair and square). 

MNB, why do you react so violently to anon3? It seems a bit out proportion. I would just have asked himself to back his words by proving them.

  
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Re: Emms 'Play the Open Games as Black'
Reply #9 - 01/04/12 at 00:34:30
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MNb, I don't care if you believe me or not but it's all true. Ask Aagaard if you really don't believe me. It seems like most of you guys have been brainwashed by Qualitychess and are blind to all of the ridiculous things Aagaard says and think Qualitychess is better than they really are.

I doubt a 2nd edition of Play the Open Games as Black will happen because he wrote it for Gambit and he know works for Everyman. Also, Gambit hasn't yet allowed a 2nd edition of any of their opening books (which I don't understand at all. They did a 2nd edition of "A Killer Opening Repertoire but they didn't do the 1st edition). They wouldn't allow a 2nd edition of "Win with the London System" even though it really needs a 2nd edition.
  
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Re: Emms 'Play the Open Games as Black'
Reply #8 - 01/03/12 at 22:26:22
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I think Emms offered both accepted (...dxc3) and declined (...d5, and also mentioned the transposition into a line of the Ponziani from the Göring via 4...Nf6 5.e5 Nd5).  However, two lines that are given as transposing into the Göring from the Danish (3...d5 and 3...dxc3 4.Nxc3 Nc6) in reality don't fully transpose.

The one thing that I did find inconsistent was the main recommendation against the Danish of 3...dxc3 4.Bc4 cxb2 5.Bxb2 d5"!", while missing the fact that 5...Nc6 leaves White with nothing better than 6.Nf3 transposing directly to his recommended lines against the Göring double-pawn sacrifice.

The suggestions of 4...Bc5 in the Scotch Four Knights and Spanish Four Knights but not the Scotch proper also struck me as a little inconsistent but I think to be fair to Emms the Scotch Mieses variation (4...Nf6 5.Nxc6 bxc6 6.e5 etc) is such a huge topic, and one that he has a lot of experience with, that it was probably impractical to cover 4...Bc5 against the Scotch in such a wide-ranging repertoire book.
  
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MNb
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Re: Emms 'Play the Open Games as Black'
Reply #7 - 01/03/12 at 18:14:31
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Anonymous3 wrote on 01/03/12 at 00:03:55:
MNb, Aagaard did say all of this. It's all in the "Beating the Open Games 2nd Edition" posts here on chesspub. and on the Qualitychess blog.

Repeat this and I'm going to submit a complaint. It's not true and you're insulting GM Aagaard again. Period. Post something like this in the Dragon section and I will censor you.
I have read that entire thread and remember it very well.

With JediKnight and CraigEvans I would welcome an update of Emms' book. I found a few choices of his a bit peculiar: accepting the Danish Gambit, but declining the Göring Gambit (or the other way round)?
Moreover I suppose there have been some developments in the pure Scotch.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Emms 'Play the Open Games as Black'
Reply #6 - 01/03/12 at 12:02:30
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CraigEvans wrote on 01/02/12 at 17:52:44:
True, though there have been advances in the Two Knights and Scotch, and at least two of his critical lines need patching up! Especially since he rejects 8.fxg7 in the ML almost out-of-hand but it has become the most critical attempt for white. There are some other lines which could also do with an update... and perhaps over time he might have reconsidered some of his choices altogether.

At any rate, I hope he doesn't, as many people still use this as their (almost) sole repertoire as black, and as I am about to engage with these lines as white, I'm quite happy for there to be no updates for a long time to come!!


To be fair Emms did mention the "straightforward" 8.fxg7 Rg8 9.Bg5 as a viable alternative for White, assessing the resulting positions as "unclear" with best play- he may just have underestimated White's chances.  Most other articles prior to Gutman/Bücker's analysis in Kaissiber either ignored the 8.fxg7 line or rejected it out of hand.

Actually, looking over the lines I think there is indeed room for an update.  For example in his coverage of the Göring Gambit he gave (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.c3 dxc3 5.Nxc3 Bb4 6.Bc4 d6 7.Qb3) 7...Qe7 an "!" in view of Black's problems in the line 7...Bxc3+ 8.bxc3 Qd7, and correctly noted that 8.Qxc3 is probably White's best response, but missed the transposition 7...Bxc3+ 8.bxc3 Qe7 which avoids the 8.Qxc3 line.  Also, after 5.Bc4 cxb2 6.Bxb2 d6 7.Nc3, 7...Be7 (as per analysis by John Watson; 8.Qb3 Nh6 9.Nd5 0-0) is far more critical than Emms's 7...Be6, plus he also misses a few resources for White in the ...d5 declining variations.  And of course as you say, the Scotch and 4.Ng5 Two Knights are more critical- e.g. the modern 8.Bd3 line in the Two Knights is relegated to just a small footnote but has recently had numerous tests.

I don't think this reflects badly on the book though- even the best books contain numerous pieces of analysis that are superseded during the following decade.
  
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Re: Emms 'Play the Open Games as Black'
Reply #5 - 01/03/12 at 00:03:55
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MNb, Aagaard did say all of this. It's all in the "Beating the Open Games 2nd Edition" posts here on chesspub. and on the Qualitychess blog.

Your comment about 3...Nf6 and 3...Bc5 shows how ignorant you are since Marin recommends meeting 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.0-0 Nf6 5.d4!? with exd4 (I think 5...Bxd4 is stronger) which transposes to a line covered in Play the Open Games as Black. Also, there are other lines that are covered in both books.
  
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Re: Emms 'Play the Open Games as Black'
Reply #4 - 01/02/12 at 22:00:04
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Anonymous3 wrote on 01/02/12 at 21:41:25:
Jacob Aagaard says "Play the Open Games as Black" is a bad book, riddled with errors (since it wasn't computer checked), and not relevant (he said Marin didn't need to use it as a source in his "Beating the Open Games".

I doubt if Aagaard has said this. You know, Emms recommends 3...Nf6. This move is quite irrelevant to Marin's book as it gives 3...Bc5.
Your post mainly shows what kind of guy/girl yóú are.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Emms 'Play the Open Games as Black'
Reply #3 - 01/02/12 at 21:41:25
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Jacob Aagaard says "Play the Open Games as Black" is a bad book, riddled with errors (since it wasn't computer checked), and not relevant (he said Marin didn't need to use it as a source in his "Beating the Open Games". However I have seems many examples of Marin's book falling short and it could have been avoided if he had used this book or other ...e5 sources. Marin really didn't use any ...e5 sources!)! If this is true than it would need a 2nd edition.

He also said Kaufman's "The Chess Advantage in Black and White", another ...e5 repertoire book for Black and the one I consider the best, to be old news (this was after saying he didn't think the book was out before Marin wrote his 1st edi. of "Beating the Open Games" and made fun of me by saying "fortune telling is not a speciality of ours").

All of this just shows how ignorant Aagaard is!
  
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