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Gambit
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Re: Hacking with 1.Nf3
Reply #50 - 07/21/11 at 01:42:25
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Thank you for the game. What were the ratings? Also, is it 2007 or 2009?
  
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Re: Hacking with 1.Nf3
Reply #49 - 07/20/11 at 23:13:44
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Gambit wrote on 07/20/11 at 19:30:55:
What about the Buss Guss Gambit, 1 Nf3 e5 2 Nxe5 Nc6 ? Any comments and games?


Attached is the game I played against Ed Farrington in the 2007 Oxford University 30 minute Rapidplay who won all of his other games and could well have won this one had he found the follow up to his Rook sac combo on move 24 after coming at me like a pawn saccing maniac right from move one  Shocked

  

JEH-Farrington.pgn ( 0 KB | Downloads )

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: Hacking with 1.Nf3
Reply #48 - 07/20/11 at 20:23:04
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Gambit wrote on 07/20/11 at 19:30:55:
What about the Buss Guss Gambit, 1 Nf3 e5 2 Nxe5 Nc6 ? Any comments and games?


Yes. 3.Nxc6 resigns (1-0), a Blitz game of mine where I was white.
  
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Re: Hacking with 1.Nf3
Reply #47 - 07/20/11 at 19:30:55
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What about the Buss Guss Gambit, 1 Nf3 e5 2 Nxe5 Nc6 ? Any comments and games?
  
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Re: Hacking with 1.Nf3
Reply #46 - 07/18/11 at 23:28:14
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 07/18/11 at 16:47:20:
Stefan Buecker recently wrote that he was pretty sure 1.Nf3 is a mistake. He wasn't sure whether 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 was a mistake though.  Smiley


Grin
  

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Re: Hacking with 1.Nf3
Reply #45 - 07/18/11 at 16:47:20
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Stefan Buecker recently wrote that he was pretty sure 1.Nf3 is a mistake. He wasn't sure whether 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 was a mistake though.  Smiley
  
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Re: Hacking with 1.Nf3
Reply #44 - 07/18/11 at 10:44:08
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MNb wrote on 07/18/11 at 10:19:44:
No. I'm not. It's possible that 4...Nc6 (which was recommended by Williams) does not give equality either, but it has been known since years that 2...Nf6 is inferior.
I always play 1...e6. After 2.c4 (I don't really see how this fits in White's gambit) f5 3.h3 Nf6 4.g4 Black has the reasonable 4...b6. There is no need to adopt a Stonewall structure.


1...e6 is of course fine.

2...d6 with 4...Nc6 is nothing special (black's life still isn't that easy after 5. exf5), if it were I'd have to think two of the Dutch specialist GMs I run into regularly in blitz would've used it by now if it were instead of opting constantly for 2...Nc6. It's really hard to argue a white edge when moves like 3. d4!? might be best. Nimzowitsch would be proud, but that's about it.  Grin
  

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Re: Hacking with 1.Nf3
Reply #43 - 07/18/11 at 10:19:44
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Eclectico wrote on 07/17/11 at 21:04:12:
Having played 1.Nf3 f5 2.d3 something like 300 times in blitz, I think I have seen 2...d6 maybee once.

That means that your opponents haven't studied Play the Classical Dutch.

BPaulsen wrote on 07/17/11 at 22:15:17:
Please tell me you're not thinking of Williams' 4...c5

No. I'm not. It's possible that 4...Nc6 (which was recommended by Williams) does not give equality either, but it has been known since years that 2...Nf6 is inferior.
I always play 1...e6. After 2.c4 (I don't really see how this fits in White's gambit) f5 3.h3 Nf6 4.g4 Black has the reasonable 4...b6. There is no need to adopt a Stonewall structure.
  

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Re: Hacking with 1.Nf3
Reply #42 - 07/18/11 at 09:30:00
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Just a hint!.. If you want an offbeat continuation then try 1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 c5 3. a3!?
Example variations (you can vary anywhere you want to):
1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 c5 3. a3 g6 4. b4 Bg7 5. bxc5 Qa5 6. Bb2 Na6 7. Bc3 Qxc5 8. e3 O-O 9. d4 Qc7 10. Nbd2 d5 11. Rc1 Bf5 12. cxd5 Nxd5 13. Bb2 Qa5 14. Qb3 *
1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 c5 3. a3 Nc6 4. Nc3 g6 5. Rb1 d5 6. cxd5 Nxd5 7. e4 Nc7 8. b4 cxb4 9. axb4 Bg7 10. b5 Nd4 11. Nxd4 Qxd4 12. Ba3 O-O 13. Be2 Ne6 14. O-O Nf4 15. Bxe7 Re8 16. Bg5 Be5 17. Re1 Be6 18. Bf1 f6 19. Bh6 Nd3 20. Be3 Qd7 21. Bxd3 Qxd3 22. Rc1 b6 23. Qa4 *
1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 c5 3. a3 e6 4. e3 d5 5. d4 Nc6 6. dxc5 Bxc5 7. b4 Be7 8. Bb2 * ...with some Tarrasch's stuff
1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 c5 3. a3 d5 4. cxd5 Nxd5 5. e4 Nc7 6. d4 cxd4 7. Qxd4 Qxd4 8. Nxd4 e5 9. Nb5 Nxb5 10. Bxb5+ *
1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 c5 3. a3 d6 4. e3 g6 5. d4 Bg7 6. Nc3 O-O 7. h3 Qb6 8. Rb1 e5 9. dxc5 dxc5 10. e4 Rd8 11. Nd5 Qd6 12. Bd3 Nc6 13. O-O *

I can guarantee you good results on blitz. For the rest, it's your choice!..  Wink
  
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Re: Hacking with 1.Nf3
Reply #41 - 07/18/11 at 08:45:27
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Yes, I was playing it as a break from 1 e4 so... Smiley

The symmetrical english would likely be the soundest/easiest way to meet 1 .. c5. Black does gain the odd non trivial option from not having Nf6 in - Nc6, e5 if you play Nc3 for instance. But nothing massive.

Actually I guess one other option would be to play the 1 Nc3 lines where you go for d4 without playing e4 first. Tricky things and you're not a pawn down!

The main early d4 symmetrical english line thing is 1 c4 c5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 d4 cd 4 Nxd4 e6 5 Nc3 Nc6 when various options, 6 a3 keeps bits on etc. 6 g3 is the oldish main line and has some non trivial theory. But its actually very sharp in the principal lines and I'd suspect theory most people at this sort of level might not know. So worth looking at.

1 Nf3 Nf6 2 c4 c5 3 Nc3 e6 is a little tricky due to the 4 Nf3 Nimzo/Semi Tarrasch transpositions you've got. 3 d4 more economical but you'll need to look (hard!) at the 4 .. e5 gambit stuff.

There's also black going into the Symettrical dragon but suppose you'll be OK with that.

Oh I'm assuming you've got dangerous weapons the flank openings. Because if not you really should Smiley
  
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Re: Hacking with 1.Nf3
Reply #40 - 07/17/11 at 22:46:06
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MartinC wrote on 07/17/11 at 18:24:34:
Mostly good fun - I've gone this way myself at times Smiley Well open Sicillians and not the wing gambit! (ugh.).


Thank you for such a constructive post.  This amateur simply doesn't have time to take up sharper lines of the open sicilian for my 2nd string "active" repertoire.  Is my current skill level worth considering here?  I'm a 38 year old 1900 (USCF) with 5 years OTB experience, who will probably never go higher than 2200. 

In this "active" repertoire I'm looking for lines to use against the typical 65 year old former expert who is floored at 2000 - his endgame skills are still better than me, but maybe he is not tactically as sharp any more.  I also want the 2nd string repertoire to focus more on initiative to help me develop my tactical strength.  It would help if they were good blitz lines, since my local club has frequent G/30 quads.  I'm tired of losing games on time when i have a superior pawn structure, space advantage or need 20 more moves to promote my queenside majority Smiley

Perhaps it makes more sense to just seek the friskiest lines I can within the symmetrical english.  Fortunately I already play an early d4 vs. an early Nc6.  I would like you use your excellent suggestion vs. the Keres/Parma as my "active" choice whilst maintaining the 5.d4/6.g3 Tarrasch setup as my "solid" chioce.  Do you think there is a reasonable way to create chaos in other lines of the symmetrical with d4?  My experience has been that an early d4 often quickly leads to a queenless middle game / end game. 
  
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Re: Hacking with 1.Nf3
Reply #39 - 07/17/11 at 22:15:17
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MNb wrote on 07/17/11 at 19:34:13:
Eclectico wrote on 07/17/11 at 16:02:31:
1...f5 2.d3 Nf6 3.e4 Anti-Dutch

Since Simon Williams every player of the Dutch knows that 2...d6 is better. Moreover you have to deal with 1...e6.


Grin

Please tell me you're not thinking of Williams' 4...c5 (after 3. e4 e5 4. Nc3), because black will be lucky to survive the opening in tact against a prepared white player. The only reason Williams' pet has done as well as it has is because white players haven't looked into it all that deeply (most white players that head for 2. d3 are doing it to avoid preparation). In fact, the one game I see in the database that Williams got this, he was worse by move 8, and only white going passive bailed him out.

The player I second for is an experienced Dutch player, and we both agree 2...Nc6 is the best bet when 3. d4 just leads to an unclear game (an equal game if white plays c4 too early in follow up).

I've played this line against numerous titled players on ICC in lightning and/or blitz, ones that actually specialize in the Dutch by reputation (and they know it's coming since I've used it before against them), and even they aren't opting for 2...d6 all that much.

Also, if you head to the main line of 2...d6, which is 3. e4 e5 4. Nc3 Nf6 white will retain an edge after 5. exf5, so I don't get how 2...d6 is supposed to be something special.
  

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Re: Hacking with 1.Nf3
Reply #38 - 07/17/11 at 21:04:12
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MNb wrote on 07/17/11 at 19:34:13:
Since Simon Williams every player of the Dutch knows that 2...d6 is better. Moreover you have to deal with 1...e6.


Having played 1.Nf3 f5 2.d3 something like 300 times in blitz, I think I have seen 2...d6 maybee once. Regardless, at least this stuff is in the spirit of the open games i'm aiming for. 

Against 1...e6 I would like to exploit black's early king exposure with a gambit to open lines.  Any thoughts on my own invention:  1.Nf3 e6 2.c4 f5 3.h3 Nf6 4.g4!?  My intention is the same as the d3 lines... white gets a raging attack after say 4... fg 5.hg Nxg4 6.Qc2 Nf6 7.Ng5.  Black can decline the gambit if he's willing to play a stonewall structure, but that isn't everyone's cup of tea. 

Of more concern is 1...d6 when my repertoire against the modern / old indian require 2.d4.  Do you have any thoughts on this KID style line where white goes for early queenside expansion?  1.Nf3 d6 2.d4 f5 3.c4 Nf6 4. Nc3 g6 5.e3 Bg7 6.b4! 
  
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Re: Hacking with 1.Nf3
Reply #37 - 07/17/11 at 19:34:13
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Eclectico wrote on 07/17/11 at 16:02:31:
1...f5 2.d3 Nf6 3.e4 Anti-Dutch

Since Simon Williams every player of the Dutch knows that 2...d6 is better. Moreover you have to deal with 1...e6.
  

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Re: Hacking with 1.Nf3
Reply #36 - 07/17/11 at 18:24:34
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Mostly good fun - I've gone this way myself at times Smiley Well open Sicillians and not the wing gambit! (ugh.).

A few more bits to complete a bit:
1 Nf3 Nf6 2 c4 e6 3 Nc3 b6 4 e4 Bb7 5 Bd3!? - great fun and a bit of (old!) theory. 

1 Nf3 g6 2 c4 Nf6 3 Nc3 d5 4 cd Nxd5 5 e4!? ^ Nxc3 6 bc and then development before a slightly delayed d4.

Much more popular to go d4 directly there, but there are Ba3 ideas which a few have tried. I was actually wondering about trying Be2/o-o/Rb1 and then d4 to get a Rb1 exchange without dropping a2. Its not obviously silly. There are also of course the Qa4+ antis which seem popular.

The KID/Moderns I suspect you'll just have to go d4 and turn anti theoretical from there. Or perhaps the (very) early Q - side expansion ideas.

I really do conceptually like the 3 b4/e3 lines after 2 c4 d4, but I'm just not sure if they actually work all that well. They'll at least need checking. Some very random stuff with an early c5 I suppose.

As for the symmetrical, the thematically center oriented/activity thing to do is go for a quick d4. Probably with 3 Nc3 first because the 3.. d5 4 cd Nxd5 5 e4!? variation fits so well! 6 a3 anti benoni say.

Oh and I hate the idea of the wing gambit, but there you go Smiley
  
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