Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 7 8 [9] 10 11 12
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit (Read 164385 times)
Gilchrist is a legend
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1039
Location: Manchester, UK
Joined: 03/02/10
Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #56 - 02/11/12 at 00:59:55
Post Tools
When in February is this book due to be published?
  

Creo lo que creo no importa lo que creen los demás.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
derdudea
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 175
Location: Germany
Joined: 10/03/08
Gender: Male
Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #55 - 02/05/12 at 09:01:43
Post Tools
@MaxJudd

I did not do anything special for those statistics. I just sorted out (with chessbase) games with both players above 2500 oder between 2000 and 2500 and so on. Now you can see in the statistics which move was played how often and what was White´s average ELO.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
derdudea
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 175
Location: Germany
Joined: 10/03/08
Gender: Male
Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #54 - 02/05/12 at 08:56:53
Post Tools
I gladly accept your apology. Let´s hope for some detailed information in book.

Maybe we can discuss some critical variations when Scherbakov gives us the much needed overview and points out what´s critical. That´s not that easy today.

Since Scherbabov understandably did no recent update on the noteboom mainlines in chesspub, the most interesting problem for me is the following game:

Jakovenko,Dmitrij (2718) - Grigorian,Avetik (2608) [D31]
EU-ch 12th Aix-les-Bains (7), 28.03.2011
1.c4 c6 2.Sf3 d5 3.d4 e6 4.Sc3 dxc4 5.a4 Lb4 6.e3 b5 7.Ld2 Lb7 8.axb5 Lxc3 9.Lxc3 cxb5 10.b3 a5 11.bxc4 b4 12.Lb2 Sf6 13.Ld3 0–0 14.0–0 Sbd7 15.Sd2 Dc7 16.f3 e5 17.Kh1 Tfe8 18.Dc2 h6 19.Tfd1 exd4 20.exd4 Df4 21.Sf1 Sh5 22.Lc1 Dh4 23.Le3 Sf4 24.Lf5 Sf6 25.d5 S6xd5 26.cxd5 Sxd5 27.Ld4 Sf4 28.Sg3 Sh5 29.Lh7+ Kh8 30.Sf5 Df4 31.Sd6 Te7 32.Sxb7 Txb7 33.Le4 Tc7 34.Dd2 Dxd2 35.Txd2 Tac8 36.Tdd1 Sf6 37.Lxf6 gxf6 38.Txa5 b3 39.Tb5 Tc1 40.Tg1 1–0
If the big boys recently played the white side, they chose the 15. Nd2 (sorry for the german annotation before)
Krasenkow points out 21...b3! as an improvement and it looks convincing, but I´m curious about Scherbakovs analysis.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #53 - 02/05/12 at 01:33:48
Post Tools
I suppose that I should apologize to derdudea for unduly pointed remarks, and so I do.

But I found it quite striking that the claim that all is specificity in chess, conjoined with precisely no analysis, was offered as evidence of anything. Anyone could say for example, "I have a fantastic record with Latvian, and since all is specificity in chess, any principled judgment of the Latvian should be ignored." Or further, "If only I had a dollar for every time somone told me that the Latvian introduces a fatal weakness in Black's kingside." The whole form of argument seemed to me to be presumptuous.

But I regret the intensity of my reaction.

  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MaxJudd
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 105
Joined: 12/09/09
Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #52 - 02/04/12 at 20:13:50
Post Tools
This is really interesting.  I am a typical club player and have had experience consistent with these numbers.  I see 5 e4 very often which is nearly absent from the databases.

This may be off topic to this thread but how does one stratify database runs by rating?  Is there already a thread on this?  If not, is this easier to do in Chessbase or in Chess Assistant (or somewhere else such as Chess.com )?   What database do you start with?

derdudea wrote on 02/03/12 at 22:34:54:
The Noteboom is not whole opening complex, but a pretty special variation giving White very limited choice. If White had as much ways to play against the Noteboom as against the Grünfeld, it would be much easier for him to find a way to have a tangible advantage. White´s best choice is to deviate before 4...dxc4. So most elite players do...

Some  statistics to compare:
Position 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Sf3 e6.
1.White´s average Elo 1912: 4.Nc3 is the most often played move (in 40%) of the games
2.White´s average Elo 2259: 4.Nc3 is the most often played move (in 27,5%) of the games
3.White´s average Elo: 2567: 4.Nc3 is the fourth - often played move (in 12,5% of the games)

The better White´s ELO is, the more likely he will avoid the Noteboom.

I would not so say that the whole triangle complex as a complete answer to the closed games is better than the Slav or the Grünfeld, but the lower the level of of your opponents is the more likely you will come away with a good game in the Noteboom or an completely innocuous stonewall setup.
And if you´re usually playing opponents <2200, you pretty sure have an easier life as Black playing the triangle than playing the Grünfeld if you know your stuff well.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
derdudea
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 175
Location: Germany
Joined: 10/03/08
Gender: Male
Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #51 - 02/04/12 at 15:01:36
Post Tools
I did not offer any analysis, all I offered was my personal correspondence playing experience which was simply ridiculed by Markovich and some observations about the way top players deal with the noteboom.

That´s not much, but I did not feel obliged to answer with analysis to an argument of the kind "according to the general rules of chess, there has to be a stong line for White". Which analysis should be able to refute such a metaphysical claim?

Of course I don´t know whether the Noteboom is a clear equalizer. But until today White did not find the holy grail and therefore avoids the line. So less enlightened players might guess it´s equal until White prooves an advantage. So did I.

Hopefully a lot of my future opponents believe in White´s chances and do not avoid it.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10756
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #50 - 02/04/12 at 13:44:13
Post Tools
Bibs wrote on 02/04/12 at 11:42:58:
Presumably for good reason.

Like Markovich implied it would have been nice if Derdudea had given these reasons as well.

Markovich wrote on 02/04/12 at 04:43:38:
revealing to the chess world the deep variations that he no doubt has in hand, must have indeed, since all is specificity in chess, to back up his claim that the Noteboom is fully adequate.


derdudea wrote on 02/03/12 at 17:38:58:
the Noteboom is a ..... safe equalizer against 1.d4/1.c4/1.Nf3, if White allows the Noteboom mainline.

That's the end of the debate, isn't it? Derdudea knows. Alas Markovich and I still don't.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bibs
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 2338
Joined: 10/24/06
Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #49 - 02/04/12 at 11:42:58
Post Tools
Markovich's comments were unwarranted and unnecessarily abrasive.

Derdudea's comments all seemed sensible enough to me. I am wary of chess stats, but does seem to bear out what I understood, that it is usually avoided. Presumably for good reason. Presumably theoretical value and the somewhat irrational 'all-in' slugging mine v yours type positions. But I'm a bit weak, so best ask a few people who are high rated.

Anyhow, I look forward to reading this book. Let's not get too sidetracked.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MartinC
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 2073
Joined: 07/24/06
Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #48 - 02/04/12 at 09:38:51
Post Tools
I think its the apparent certainty being expressed that he doesn't like.

Which is fair, because there are sorts of precedents for things we 'knew' being wrong. Especially in something so fundamentally complex as this stuff is.

It'd be a silly thing to get into a heated argument about mind Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
derdudea
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 175
Location: Germany
Joined: 10/03/08
Gender: Male
Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #47 - 02/04/12 at 07:54:08
Post Tools
Seth_Xoma wrote on 02/04/12 at 04:54:55:
I sensed nothing in derdudea's posts that deserved such a patronizing response, but maybe that's just me.


That´s not only you. But I guess it was well deserved.

How could I doubt a certain moderators statement that was against the current status of theory but based on his unique insight in the eternal principles of chess? There must be forum rule against such blasphemous behaviour.

Now only GM Scherbakov can save my silly mortals soul, but only if 2500 ELO is enough to be taken seriously.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Seth_Xoma
God Member
*****
Offline


FM with 2 IM Norms - (2381)

Posts: 558
Location: Lansing
Joined: 11/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #46 - 02/04/12 at 04:54:55
Post Tools
I sensed nothing in derdudea's posts that deserved such a patronizing response, but maybe that's just me.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #45 - 02/04/12 at 04:43:38
Post Tools
Fascinating. We must hope that Sherbakov has consulted extensively with derdudea, or at least made a deep study of his games. If not, then derdudea himself should turn around and write a proper Noteboom book, revealing to the chess world the deep variations that he no doubt has in hand, must have indeed, since all is specificity in chess, to back up his claim that the Noteboom is fully adequate.

But you have to feel sorry for poor old Sherbakov, who has labored so many months on his book, when all the time derdudea could have supplied him with numerous, highly specific answers to prove Black's case.

Just imagine, though. So many tricky positions, uncertain to so many people, and in each and every case derdudea has it all worked out in Black's favor. It's monumental.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
derdudea
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 175
Location: Germany
Joined: 10/03/08
Gender: Male
Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #44 - 02/03/12 at 22:34:54
Post Tools
The Noteboom is not whole opening complex, but a pretty special variation giving White very limited choice. If White had as much ways to play against the Noteboom as against the Grünfeld, it would be much easier for him to find a way to have a tangible advantage. White´s best choice is to deviate before 4...dxc4. So most elite players do...

Some  statistics to compare:
Position 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Sf3 e6.
1.White´s average Elo 1912: 4.Nc3 is the most often played move (in 40%) of the games
2.White´s average Elo 2259: 4.Nc3 is the most often played move (in 27,5%) of the games
3.White´s average Elo: 2567: 4.Nc3 is the fourth - often played move (in 12,5% of the games)

The better White´s ELO is, the more likely he will avoid the Noteboom.

I would not so say that the whole triangle complex as a complete answer to the closed games is better than the Slav or the Grünfeld, but the lower the level of of your opponents is the more likely you will come away with a good game in the Noteboom or an completely innocuous stonewall setup.
And if you´re usually playing opponents <2200, you pretty sure have an easier life as Black playing the triangle than playing the Grünfeld if you know your stuff well.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Gilchrist is a legend
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1039
Location: Manchester, UK
Joined: 03/02/10
Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #43 - 02/03/12 at 21:34:23
Post Tools
If the Noteboom equalises so easily, how is it that more reputable openings such as the Grünfeld and Slav are not clear equalisers?
  

Creo lo que creo no importa lo que creen los demás.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
derdudea
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 175
Location: Germany
Joined: 10/03/08
Gender: Male
Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #42 - 02/03/12 at 17:38:58
Post Tools
Markovich wrote on 02/02/12 at 17:26:21:
It seems you're convinced that the Noteboom is bad for White.  I'm not.  Completely independently of current theory, I think that some sort of strong line of play will eventually emerge for White.  In fact, this book may hasten its arrival.  My point of view is that White is White, and he has played nothing but good moves.  Black on the other hand, tsk.

But Sherbakov's contributions on Chess Publishing have been so impressive that I'm sure this will be a great book.


I play the triangle against 1.d4/c4/Nf3 for three years now in correspondence chess, most of the time against 2000 - 2350 (ICCF rating) competition scoring 64% with Black and for the same time I´m promoting it here in the forum.

If I only got a dollar for every time I read
1) "There has to be a good line in the Noteboom for White since all he did was playing good opening moves"
or
2)"Black has problems in the line 3.Nf3 and 4.Qc2! and therefore should only enter the triangle after 3.Nc3"

1) If we learned anything about chess in the last 20 years, it is that there is no principle in chess without exceptions. And until someone proves the Noteboom players wrong, the Noteboom is a highly complicated, but safe equalizer against 1.d4/1.c4/1.Nf3, if White allows the Noteboom mainline. Maybe there is an exception to the rule that playing only (in principle) good opening moves should give you a chance to play for advantage? 

2) The line may be White´s best try to get an advantage, but after 4.Qc2 dxc4 5.Qxc4 Nf6 I really can´t see Black facing more problems than in other Semi-Slav mainlines. White is White in this line and that´s much better than he does entering the Noteboom mainlines and even better than playing 4.e3, allowing all kinds of Semi-Slavs (he might did not want to play) and a good version of the Stonewall, where White usually gets only a little more than nothing.

So White has two lines against that whole triangle/stonewall complex where he can fight for an advantage. That´s not too much, regarding that the has absolutely nothing against the Noteboom and in most stonewall setups.

In my games, in 4 of 5 games I equalise pretty easy, the rest are fighting games. In 53 games, I scored 65%, loosing only 5 games, two of them due to  unforced errors (analysing the wrong position).
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 7 8 [9] 10 11 12
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo