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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit (Read 126301 times)
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #176 - 03/21/14 at 12:53:54
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The key position in the Noteboom (a+b passed pawn vs c4-d4-e4/e3 white center) is a fascinating one. I tried to play that lines with black some years ago but anybody as W seemed to want to accept the challenge. Lots of early a4 or Bg5.

Yesterday I saw a pure Noteboom game next to me in the tournament I am playing, and I enjoyed a lot watching that game (I blundered in my own game and I continued playing a lost position only to see it). Nice messy positions.

Sorry for the offtopic  Wink
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #175 - 03/12/14 at 12:32:43
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MNb wrote on 03/10/14 at 20:20:06:
My idea is 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 c6 3.e3 Bg4 heading for a Stonewall with the bishop on g4, 3.c3 Bg4 and 3.Bf4 Qb6 eg 4.b3 Bf5. No symmetry here.


While not completely symmetrical, it was lines like 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 c6 3.Bf4 Qb6 4.Qc1 Bf5 5.e3 that put me off of the 2...c6 move order.  Obviously there's nothing wrong with Black's game, but it's hardly exciting. 

Anyway to each their own; your way and my way are basically what Black has to choose from if he wants to keep the option of playing the Noteboom after 2.Nf3.
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #174 - 03/11/14 at 11:43:30
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Volcanor wrote on 03/11/14 at 08:37:41:
ReneDescartes wrote on 03/10/14 at 17:37:16:
And you'll die before you get to play against the aptly-named  Diehmer-Duhm gambit, except perhaps in Blitz.

What is the Diehmer-Duhm gambit?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diemer%E2%80%93Duhm_Gambit

and this is a whole site devoted to it: http://www.nic.funet.fi/pub/doc/games/chess/ddg/
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #173 - 03/11/14 at 08:37:41
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ReneDescartes wrote on 03/10/14 at 17:37:16:
And you'll die before you get to play against the aptly-named  Diehmer-Duhm gambit, except perhaps in Blitz.

What is the Diehmer-Duhm gambit?
  
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MNb
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #172 - 03/10/14 at 20:20:06
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ErictheRed wrote on 03/09/14 at 16:12:33:
I made an old thread around here some years ago about how Noteboom players should handle 2.Nf3.  In the end, I decided on 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 e6, meeting 3.e3 with 3..f5.  I figured that I'd rather have the option of playing ...c5 against the London and Torre than the option of developing the bishop outside the pawn chain, which often seemed to lead to very boring, symmetrical positions--though 2.Nf3 e6 3.Bf4 wasn't much fun, either.

My idea is 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 c6 3.e3 Bg4 heading for a Stonewall with the bishop on g4, 3.c3 Bg4 and 3.Bf4 Qb6 eg 4.b3 Bf5. No symmetry here.
  

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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #171 - 03/10/14 at 17:37:16
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Agree. The point of the triangle idea is to launch a huge raft of pawns on the queenside after ...dxc4 and ...b5. If White holds back c4, this whole idea becomes impossible, and by trying to stick to the Triangle then you will have purchased the worst sides of the Slav and QGD in one wrapper. Rather than MNb's 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 c6, I would probably just play Eric's 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 e6 so as to reserve the right to shove my c-pawn in White's face in case of a Queen's pawn game. But that's a matter of taste; the main point is to be ready to shelve the triangle if you don't see c4.

And you'll die before you get to play against the aptly-named  Diehmer-Duhm gambit, except perhaps in Blitz.
« Last Edit: 03/11/14 at 02:13:26 by ReneDescartes »  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #170 - 03/09/14 at 16:12:33
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I made an old thread around here some years ago about how Noteboom players should handle 2.Nf3.  In the end, I decided on 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 e6, meeting 3.e3 with 3..f5.  I figured that I'd rather have the option of playing ...c5 against the London and Torre than the option of developing the bishop outside the pawn chain, which often seemed to lead to very boring, symmetrical positions--though 2.Nf3 e6 3.Bf4 wasn't much fun, either.

If Black really wants to punish White for being so boring, he can try 3.Bf4 Bd6 4.Bg3 f5, which while not the best version of a Stonewall, at least isn't a London!  The good news for Black is that it's better than 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 c6 4.Nc3 f5?! 5.Bf4! for instance, because White's spent a tempo putting the bishop on g3.  Additionally, some hyper-aggressive g2-g4 options for White are bypassed.

Anyway that's what I came up with some years ago, though London players  went 4.Bxd6 or 4.Ne5 the few times I played this.
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #169 - 03/09/14 at 12:35:11
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The only ways to invite a Noteboom after 1.e4 are via c6 2.c4 e6, 1.e4 e6 2.c4 c6 and 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.c4 (this even has a name: Diemer-Duhm Gambit) c6.
After 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 c6 not 3.c4 Black should try to take benefit and look for ways to get Bc8 out of the pawn chain.
  

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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #168 - 03/08/14 at 22:06:04
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Well, playing an early ...c6 and ...e6 when White isn't playing an early c4 makes little sense.

I'm not sure why the Winawer, or any other e4 defense, would be "consistent" with the Triangle.
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #167 - 03/08/14 at 20:26:00
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A question on a consistent rep..... I have started using the triangle as my d4 defense. To be consistent what would you play against white's offbeat d4 tries (london, colle, etc)? Is there a way to stick with the "triangle" or do you drop into other defenses?

Secondly, what would be consistent against e4? A Winawer French maybe but anything else?

Thanks guys.
  

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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #166 - 08/21/12 at 03:28:21
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After a weekend of culling lines I found myself bogged down in (totally unnecessary) sideline choices. Out of 252 something separate PGNs to edit/sort I stalled around 1/4 of the way through.

Onwared, imperterritus.
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #165 - 08/13/12 at 13:14:26
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yes, i snagged the pgn when downloading the pgn so i've been culling it in chessbase 11. learning a lot!  i have a tournament in 30 days and i'm torn about trying to incorporate all of this in that time, or just the high level mainline. will see how far i get this week.
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #164 - 08/12/12 at 05:20:56
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I've bought the ebook version (there is a pgn), imported it in CPT and trim variations from here.

This is probably quicker, and certainly less tedious...
  

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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #163 - 08/11/12 at 22:13:19
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I just bought the eBook and am about half-way through culling the lines for a repertoire that I can load into Chess Positional Trainer and practice with.

My thoughts: The book is a beast! I have been using a Noteboom repertoire built from the author's chesspublishing texts and this text, in my opinion, is well worth the money for the additional material!

I am not through the book yet so these questions may be premature, but I'll ask anyway...

Would like to know: If I were to make the Triangle text the foundation for my repertoire against 1.d4, do I need to supplement it with any additional material not found in the book (say, for a d4 special of some kind)?

Would like to know: Are there synergistic repertoires against 1.Nf3 and 1.c4 that would "make sense" to learn from an efficiency viewpoint. This Triangle system is massive, I'd like to get the most mileage from learning it.

What I play now:

White: Botvinnik English, and sometimes 1.e4 heading to the "Big Clamp" if I want to change it up.

Black v. 1.e4: Caro-Kann
Black v. 1.d4: 1.... c6 hoping for CK and lately the Noteboom sometimes
Black v. 1.c4: 1..../e5/2.d6/3.Nc6 or Be7
Black v. 1.Nf3: 1....c6

Thanks for any thoughts. Making repertoire PGNs is so tedious for me, I'd gladly pay someone to fix all mine for me. May have to go back to my coach but I haven't done lessons in a year.
« Last Edit: 08/11/12 at 23:24:15 by jhbchess »  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #162 - 07/19/12 at 15:32:09
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Quote:
And with 2...e6 i have a logical problem. The d5-pawn is not under pressure but you waste move to cover him and block your own bishop.



Well Tullius, chess is a curious game.  While 2...e6 spends a tempo, blocks in the light squared Bishop, and protects the d5-pawn, it does promote Kingside development.  On the other hand, 2...c6 spends a tempo, takes a good square away from the Queen's Knight, protects the d5-pawn, and only helps the Queen to develop along the d8-a5 diaganol.

So I'm not sure which is better from a "logical" standpoint.
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #161 - 07/19/12 at 06:53:48
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That's true but then can White play c2-c4 and we are in the main variation of the Stonewall. This is something i want to avoid (personal choice). After an early e2-e3 the Stonewall is more pleasant for Black (imo).
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #160 - 07/18/12 at 22:14:55
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As you are happy to play the stonewall against the colle I just want to mention that you can transpose to stonewall also against 2..e6 3.g3 by playing 3..f5!?
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #159 - 07/18/12 at 20:37:14
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Quote:
Personally I would play 2...e6. The other is rather wimpy against the Colle. After 2.c4 I would also play 2...e6.


The problem with 2...e6 is that White can now play 3.g3 and even when it is not a real threat after 3...c5 but the arising positions after 4.c4 cxd4 can be boring and at the end you have a dull position as Black, otherwise White can transpose in more ambitous openings (Catalan/Dutch).

And with 2...e6 i have a logical problem. The d5-pawn is not under pressure but you waste move to cover him and block your own bishop.

2...c6 is much better esp because after 3.g3 the bishop can go to f5 or g4. Against the Colle the Stonewall is a good answer because you have chance to seize the initative instead of trying simply to neutralize the Colle and after c2-c4 you are back in the book.
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #158 - 07/08/12 at 05:56:20
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Yes and that caused a lot of problem. Suddenly I wanted to like too many books which I was not ready to pay $20! Finally gone with what I felt I need, rather what I actually like.
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #157 - 07/05/12 at 20:03:16
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But you get a second eBook of your choice for free.
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #156 - 07/05/12 at 15:33:56
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eBook is out now. But the price has gone up from earlier $19.95 to $22.95 !!
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #155 - 06/15/12 at 14:59:20
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For the most part I used to play 2.Nf3 e6, heading to the Stonewall if 3.e3 and meeting 3.Bf4 with 3...Bd6.  Not the most exciting try againt the London, but c'est la vie.
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #154 - 06/15/12 at 14:13:47
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Markovich wrote on 06/15/12 at 03:00:59:
The other is rather wimpy against the Colle.

Heading for the Stonewall after 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 c6 3.e3 is not wimpy at all.
  

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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #153 - 06/15/12 at 03:00:59
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Personally I would play 2...e6. The other is rather wimpy against the Colle. After 2.c4 I would also play 2...e6.
  

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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #152 - 06/14/12 at 23:11:22
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If you really want to play the Noteboom Variation (1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 e6 4.Nc3 dc4), you will probably want to play 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 c6. 2...e6 also allows the transposition, but is less flexible. The main difference is whether you want to play ...c7-c5 against London and other QP systems.


If you're not so interested in the Noteboom you can respond 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6, but then you probably won't be interested in this book.
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #151 - 06/14/12 at 23:00:46
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OK, at my level, 1 d4 d5 2 Nf3 is extremely common.  Does he have any recommendation there?  If white is going for a typical Queen's pawn game then after 2...Nf6 we can just play our preferred setup.  But what about 2...Nf6 3 c4, does this book have a suggestion for that?
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #150 - 06/08/12 at 08:50:17
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I am not familiar with technology and computing in absolute, so if there are applications that are semi-computerised to study without a laptop, it would still be difficult to study them like a laptop, with an engine running, with no mouse, etc. But I would rather have the actual book to carry round.
  

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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #149 - 06/08/12 at 08:10:42
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Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 06/08/12 at 01:10:05:
it is impossible with an e-book unless you bring your laptop.


I wouldn't call it impossible. I will most likely get a Galaxy Tab 7.7 pretty soon, which is considerably smaller and lighter than a laptop. Of course, my Galaxy S3 works ok (the iPhone was worse) for just reading the books, even though I also prefer paper versions. But I am not allowed to have too many at home, and also it is much easier to read on a phone when you have to stand because the subway is packed with people.
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #148 - 06/08/12 at 01:10:05
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The problem is that if you want to study it without a computer, or if you want to bring your book on a train ride to read or to school or work, it is impossible with an e-book unless you bring your laptop. Also it is impossible to study an e-book if one has no computer or does not want to use computers. For example, if my grandfather wanted to study this book, he would need the physical book, despite it being 400+ pages long, because he does not have a computer nor does he want to learn how to use one.
  

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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #147 - 06/08/12 at 00:38:30
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I like both the book and the ebook. I like to feel the book and the pages too and sometimes keep away from the screen but on the other hand, today I like more and more the pratical side of ebooks because I do not need to write all the 400 pages again. The author had done that job for me. The pratical side of studying the book in Chessbase is to analyse myself, add variations in notes and check with engines. I think Everyman could arrange a discount for book + ebook buyers.  Wink
  

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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #146 - 06/07/12 at 05:19:32
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I rather have a physical book in front of me, so that I can actually feel the book and turn the pages and carry it around places to read. This book is over 400 pages long if I remember correctly, a bit a large file? At least with a book one can have both the book and enter the moves into Chessbase as well.
  

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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #145 - 06/07/12 at 03:44:04
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I would still wait for eBook as it is so easy run through on Chessbase, reather than reading a book and playing it over board/chessbase
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #144 - 05/30/12 at 21:14:47
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I ordered mine from book depository for a total of 18 eur! They send to India free of charge too.  Smiley
  

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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #143 - 05/22/12 at 01:08:31
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Why not get priority shipping or Fedex?
  

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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #142 - 05/21/12 at 16:28:28
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Any idea when this book will come as eBook. From India, that is the fastest & easiest choice to get it.
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #141 - 05/04/12 at 12:08:21
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Off-Topic replies have been moved to this Topic.
  

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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #140 - 05/02/12 at 06:56:30
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Markovich wrote on 05/02/12 at 00:15:49:
Actually though, I maintain that the Triangle system is not a Semi-Slav at all, but a variation of the Queen's Gambit Declined, with c6 being played on move three.. That is how it arises in a large majority of cases.

Why indeed would you play 2...c6 if you were intending to play this?


Some would argue that the entire Slav complex is itself merely a large branch of the Queen's Gambit declined and in some books I own it is certainly handled that way. (Lars Schandorff for example!)

Either way, this new Triangle book is great ... very objective. 

I bought it for the White side and have not been disappointed.  Very dense analysis (which I enjoy).
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #139 - 05/02/12 at 02:43:00
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I don't like the name Semi-Slav at all; it's not specific enough. As soon as someone uses it I wonder: which one? Though I must admit that MartinC made a good use of it at 19:59.

Markovich wrote on 05/02/12 at 00:15:49:
Why indeed would you play 2...c6 if you were intending to play this?

To avoid the Marshall Gambit with 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 dxc4 and transpose after 4.Nf3 e6. There will be a problem with consistency though after 1.c4 e6 2.Nc3.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #138 - 05/02/12 at 00:15:49
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Actually though, I maintain that the Triangle system is not a Semi-Slav at all, but a variation of the Queen's Gambit Declined, with c6 being played on move three.. That is how it arises in a large majority of cases.

Why indeed would you play 2...c6 if you were intending to play this?
  

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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #137 - 05/01/12 at 22:04:26
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Quite well even Smiley Think I got confused by it being covered as a fourth move deviation....
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #136 - 05/01/12 at 19:35:29
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MartinC wrote on 05/01/12 at 18:59:05:
Certainly not many of them being produced.

As it happens it is basically complete - no exchange lines but going e6 before c6 or Nf6 makes those a total non issue anyhow. No 1 c4, Nf3 either but e6 followed by d5 really does considerably simplify life there too.

Not the semi slav either of course Smiley But lots of good coverage of all blacks independent ways to play.

The thing which slightly scares me is that you've got this massively erudite/thorough book and you can still look at it and think of all these places where some more obsessive authors might have analysed to death.
(Without I'd think any genuine benefit.).

Well that and how hard the Marshall gambit must be to analyse - white's compensation obviously isn't crushing but it does seem to endure all the way through to all sorts of endings.


In fact, the exchange is covered.
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #135 - 05/01/12 at 18:59:05
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Certainly not many of them being produced.

As it happens it is basically complete - no exchange lines but going e6 before c6 or Nf6 makes those a total non issue anyhow. No 1 c4, Nf3 either but e6 followed by d5 really does considerably simplify life there too.

Not the semi slav either of course Smiley But lots of good coverage of all blacks independent ways to play.

The thing which slightly scares me is that you've got this massively erudite/thorough book and you can still look at it and think of all these places where some more obsessive authors might have analysed to death.
(Without I'd think any genuine benefit.).

Well that and how hard the Marshall gambit must be to analyse - white's compensation obviously isn't crushing but it does seem to endure all the way through to all sorts of endings.
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #134 - 05/01/12 at 18:24:29
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I was just thinking, I wonder how well such books (which dare not to provide a "complete repertoire") sell these days ...
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #133 - 05/01/12 at 18:08:47
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Thank you Markovich!  Smiley
only a question: as a repertoire is it... complete? I mean I need other books on (semi)-slav, exchange lines etc  as Black?
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #132 - 05/01/12 at 14:44:34
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Markovich wrote on 05/01/12 at 12:39:04:
buy it .....

I will.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #131 - 05/01/12 at 13:21:14
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Markovich wrote on 05/01/12 at 12:39:04:
This book finally came into my hands, and I am very, very impressed.  It really is one of the best opening works that I can recall.  I have a library of six or seven hundred chess books, and I don't think that it includes any, devoted to a specific opening system, better than this one.  It is beyond thorough, delving deeply into; organizing; and evaluating some of the most complicated, important and heretofore obscure variations in all of chess theory.  It is not a repertoire book, but a full exploration of the possibilities for either side. The evaluations exaggerate neither side's chances.

It is clear and concise.  The diction is formal but still engaging.  It is refreshingly free of the self-congratulation, upon finding this or that new idea, that has recently afflicted the chess opening literature.  There is enough discussion of important positions that the amateur can gain significant insights from the Grandmaster, but nothing that merely points out the obvious.

But the chess is marvelous!  There is so much complexity and dynamism here.  Anyone playing either the Noteboom or the Marshall Gambit from either side must have this work.  If you play 1.d4 or answer 1.d4 with 1...d5, buy it for the light is sheds on whatever systems you do play.  Buy it anyway for the fascinating exploration of fighting chess that it is.  Playing through these variations, you can hear the opposing shields thumping together, and the clash of sword against sword.

Ruslan Sherbakov's contributions to Chesspublishing have always been among the best and most thorough, and this work continues in the same excellent vein.

Great review!.. Thank you, Markovich!
(Obviously, this is my next book to buy. ..And I'll give it a try in my future correspondence chess games.)
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #130 - 05/01/12 at 12:39:04
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This book finally came into my hands, and I am very, very impressed.  It really is one of the best opening works that I can recall.  I have a library of six or seven hundred chess books, and I don't think that it includes any, devoted to a specific opening system, better than this one.  It is beyond thorough, delving deeply into; organizing; and evaluating some of the most complicated, important and heretofore obscure variations in all of chess theory.  It is not a repertoire book, but a full exploration of the possibilities for either side. The evaluations exaggerate neither side's chances.

It is clear and concise.  The diction is formal but still engaging.  It is refreshingly free of the self-congratulation, upon finding this or that new idea, that has recently afflicted the chess opening literature.  There is enough discussion of important positions that the amateur can gain significant insights from the Grandmaster, but nothing that merely points out the obvious.

But the chess is marvelous!  There is so much complexity and dynamism here.  Anyone playing either the Noteboom or the Marshall Gambit from either side must have this work.  If you play 1.d4 or answer 1.d4 with 1...d5, buy it for the light is sheds on whatever systems you do play.  Buy it anyway for the fascinating exploration of fighting chess that it is.  Playing through these variations, you can hear the opposing shields thumping together, and the clash of sword against sword.

Ruslan Sherbakov's contributions to Chesspublishing have always been among the best and most thorough, and this work continues in the same excellent vein.
  

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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #129 - 04/02/12 at 21:03:59
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Page 41  at the top I think has an error.  Has anyone else found it ?
z
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #128 - 04/02/12 at 16:46:35
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I think you did pretty well. Your 16...exd5 is best. Hence your opponent's 9.Bf8 is not good. I'll post your game with some options for both sides. Some of these variations are almost forced.  Wink

  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #127 - 04/02/12 at 15:53:09
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I tried to play the Noteboom again in a rated game for the first time in years, but was hit with the Marshall Gambit.  I knew this was a risk; unfortunately, I hadn't studied the theory of this line for 8 years or so.  Here's how the game proceeded:

1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c6 4.e4 de 5.Nxe4 Bb4+ 6.Bd2 Qxd4 7.Bxb4 Qxe4+ 8.Be2 Na6 9.Bf8 Ne7 10.Bxg7 Rg8 11.Bf6 Rg6 12.Bc3 Qxg2 13.Qd2 Qxh1 14.0-0-0 Nd5 15.Nf3 Qg2 16.cd ed and now my opponent played 17.Bxa6? Qxf3! and I think Black's just winning.  After 18.Re1+ Re6 19.Rxe6+ I had 19...Bxe6! because 20.Bxb7 loses on the spot to 20...Qh1+ 21.Kc2 Bf5+ 22.Kb3 Rb8 (my opponent didn't play 20.Bxb7).

Anyway not exactly a high level game, but I was wondering about the theory of this line; I was on my own after move 10!  Is 12...Qxg2 playable, or too risky?  The old Play the Noteboom gives it in a subvariation, saying it's too risky for Black, but only considers 16...cxd5 17.Ne5, which I indeed thought looked very strong, hence my 16...exd5.  During the game I was worried about 17.Ne5 or 17.Qd4; thankfully my opponent went astray with 17.Bxa6?. 

  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #126 - 03/28/12 at 22:46:01
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It sounds like everyone else may have been on holiday as well.

Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 03/28/12 at 22:39:40:
BlkSabb wrote on 03/28/12 at 22:15:40:
How does anyone do business like this?  480 days off for each kid for both parents?  How is Sweden not bankrupt in a year?  The employer and taxpayers are footing the bill for you to read chess books for 480 days?

What if you have something like six kids?  Do you ever have to work again?


Maybe because he deserves the time as a Swedish citizen? There is a reason Sweden is in the Top 10 list of countries for greatest quality of life. Like how in almost all developed nations (except for one) where citizens deserve free healthcare and subsidised education?

And what do you mean "the taxpayers?" Is he not also a taxpayer himself?

I went on holiday to Sweden's neighbouring country Norway, and it is true, that most of the Scandinavian countries have priorities right.

  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #125 - 03/28/12 at 12:27:18
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In the position after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c6 4.e3, Ruslan Scherbakov gives three options, 4..., f5, Bd6 or Nd7. The section on 4..., f5 does a pretty convincing job on making this seem dubious. 4..., Nd7 is directed against the plan of Nf3-e5 and f4. When this is played against 4..., Bd6, the white position is very solid and he comments that black has few winning chances if any. However, doesn't 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c6 4.e3 Nd7 5.Bd3 condemn black to a worse pawn structure if he wants to stick to the Stonewall ? E.g. 5.Bd3 f5 6.cd cd and black will need to play a6 and would have preferred to be able to play Nc6. The line given after 4..., Nd7 5.Nf3 f5 6.Qc2 Nh6 does look attractive but how achieveable is getting it on the board ?
Not having found an answer I'll stick to 4..., Bd6. I am thoroughly enjoying the book so far.
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #124 - 03/17/12 at 16:17:29
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If I have time Smiley
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #123 - 03/17/12 at 11:00:51
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Göran wrote on 03/17/12 at 10:54:29:
fling wrote on 03/17/12 at 10:01:20:
Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 03/17/12 at 07:45:06:
Which resources on the Slav do you use to complement Scherbakov's book to be consistent with both repertoires?


...
Hopefully I'll have more time later this year, when on parental leave  Tongue


In your dreams!  Grin


I know, especially since I also wanted to go climbing with some friends! At least the good thing here in Sweden is that we have lots of time for parental leave. Maybe I should start a group for chess-playing dads on parental leave  Smiley
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #122 - 03/17/12 at 10:01:20
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Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 03/17/12 at 07:45:06:
Which resources on the Slav do you use to complement Scherbakov's book to be consistent with both repertoires?


I have Burgess, Vigus and Lakdawala's latest books, as well as the Chess Explained and Play the Semi-Slav by Vigorito. For the White side, Avrukh's GM1 and 2, Beat the Guerillas, Wojo 1 and Schandorff. Well, also the Starting Out from Everyman. Last but not least, for both sides - Chesspub Smiley

But I can't say I am really complementing to have a consistent repertoire. I haven't started building a real repertoire, since I have only been playing the Slav. Just need to find some time to work on it  Grin.

Since the Repertoire thread here at Chesspub have gone cold (1.e4 and 1.d4) maybe we can start assembling something for a Slav/Triangle/Semi-Slav complex. Hopefully I'll have more time later this year, when on parental leave  Tongue
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #121 - 03/17/12 at 07:45:06
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Which resources on the Slav do you use to complement Scherbakov's book to be consistent with both repertoires?
  

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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #120 - 03/17/12 at 06:55:12
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Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 03/17/12 at 02:40:23:
It seems interesting to play the Noteboom/Marshall Gambit setup 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nc3 e6. Then if 4. e3, play Scherbakov's 4...f5 setup, or 4...Nf6 transposing to the Meran as Scherbakov mentions. Then if 3. Nf3, one can play the Slav setup 3...Nf6. Then if 4. Nc3 dxc4 5. a4 Bf5 is the Slav Alapin. Then that seems like a repertoire based on the Noteboom/Marshall Gambit, Semi-Slav, and Slav simultaneously. It seems quite complicated since that repertoire would be based not on one main opening, but on three different main line openings. But was that in your plans?


It is quite like my plans. I will for sure transpose to a Meran if i can, rather than a Stonewall. Anyway, I have been studying the Semi-Slav for some time, and already play the Slav. Therefore, I still "only" have to add the Noteboom. All in all, to be able to vary depending on the opposition, but also most importantly, depending on my mood Smiley

Also, not to forget, the study of the ideas in Semi-Slav and Noteboom really helps me understand some Slav positions and vice versa. Especially since I play the Catalan as White, I can combine these to understand more about the compensation for White and plans for Black in various lines with g3 from White (which you migth get quite often as Black at club level).
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #119 - 03/17/12 at 02:40:23
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It seems interesting to play the Noteboom/Marshall Gambit setup 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nc3 e6. Then if 4. e3, play Scherbakov's 4...f5 setup, or 4...Nf6 transposing to the Meran as Scherbakov mentions. Then if 3. Nf3, one can play the Slav setup 3...Nf6. Then if 4. Nc3 dxc4 5. a4 Bf5 is the Slav Alapin. Then that seems like a repertoire based on the Noteboom/Marshall Gambit, Semi-Slav, and Slav simultaneously. It seems quite complicated since that repertoire would be based not on one main opening, but on three different main line openings. But was that in your plans?
  

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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #118 - 03/16/12 at 10:53:01
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Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 03/15/12 at 22:30:57:
fling wrote on 03/15/12 at 09:02:34:
Actually, in my experience, most players under 2000 would have no clue how to get to the main line. Therefore, many White players will simply deviate early. Or else they will likely avoid the main line of fear of being outprepared.


Even in that case, at least the book offers recommendations for 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3.


That is true, and good of course! I still haven't started looking at the recommendations carefully in the book, but I will. My intention is to couple the Slav, which I play now, to the Semi-Slav and Noteboom set-ups. The idea is flexibility and to learn something new and potentially more unbalanced.
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #117 - 03/16/12 at 10:20:48
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A lot of nice things have been said of this book and I like it very much too. However  Smiley I think I found a little oversight by Scherbakov. If you check the Broznik book on d4 Guerrillas, there's a section on the Stonewall Slav, and Scherbakov doesn't have a white move that Broznik has. I will post the line here later.
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #116 - 03/15/12 at 22:30:57
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fling wrote on 03/15/12 at 09:02:34:
Actually, in my experience, most players under 2000 would have no clue how to get to the main line. Therefore, many White players will simply deviate early. Or else they will likely avoid the main line of fear of being outprepared.


Even in that case, at least the book offers recommendations for 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3.
  

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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #115 - 03/15/12 at 09:02:34
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Actually, in my experience, most players under 2000 would have no clue how to get to the main line. Therefore, many White players will simply deviate early. Or else they will likely avoid the main line of fear of being outprepared.
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #114 - 03/14/12 at 23:41:55
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The book is definitely extremely dense and detailed. It reminds me of The Complete Najdorf and The Complete Najdorf: 6. Bg5 in terms of detail. I think some players below 2200 can read this book though. I would memorise the bold lines only and use the ideas in the footnotes for sidelines.

An ambitious 1800 or 1900 can probably use the bold moves to learn and not attend to all of the footnotes in detail.  This is probably the detail that a 2300 would definitely need, all the way up to a 2800, but still useful for under 2200.
  

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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #113 - 03/14/12 at 17:22:53
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The book sounded great, especially since I already have some Slav/Semi-Slav experience, so I ordered directly from the UK. It arrived yesterday.

And man is it complicated. When an opening book gives you solutions on move 25 while saying "Black must play precisely here", you know it is serious. Plus there are multiple places where Scherbakov admits that Black's best option is to transpose to the Botvinnik Semi-Slav, so hopefully you already have that under your belt!

On the other hand, the writing is very clear, and is good about talking about larger issues than just variations. There's also a nice narrative thread through the chapters; the structure of the book is nicer than just a big list of variations. It's also extremely (maybe too?) comprehensive. It certainly feels like a book that could have been published by Quality Chess, which is a large compliment.

My conclusion is that it's too much for this 1900 to handle, even though I'm a better variation-memorizer than most. If you're sub-2200, browse through it before deciding if it's for you.
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #112 - 03/13/12 at 02:45:51
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Also, the paper feels very different. As one post said anteriormente, the paper feels similar to the current paper used in Quality Chess books.
  

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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #111 - 03/10/12 at 19:50:44
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I actually would like to see more books like this. Variations and deep analyses that will be helpful especially for 2300+. An opening such as the Noteboom required heavy analysis anyway.

Page 190 has a variation numbered "D42221", a branch on Move 22. Again I do not complain about the extreme density of the analyses; instead I wish more opening books were at this level of detail, just like Grandmaster Repertoire series.
« Last Edit: 03/11/12 at 00:03:52 by Gilchrist is a legend »  

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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #110 - 03/10/12 at 19:25:19
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Without Nf6 and the Bg5 possibility, the Exchange in the Triangle version is almost toothless as Black can easily contest the b1-h7 diagonal.

Duh, silly me. I should have known that. Thanks!
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #109 - 03/10/12 at 09:29:09
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I got the book during the week.

This is a very broad repertoire book.  He covers lines for black that he doesnt even belive in (which learns us why NOT to play a certain line). He covers in general 2-3 answers for black and more white replies (of course).

I would say that this is a book for the advanced player. There are a lot of theory and a little bit of a jungle...at least for me. There are no illustrative games in this book so if you like trees of variaitions you certainly like this book.

For my own prefrence this book could have been done better with more verbal explanations of strategies . But in some places Ruslan shows that he really can explain strategy for the reader in a very good way. It should have just been a little more of it.

All in all I like the book and I am glad I have it. But it could have been done better when it comes to verbal explanations of ideas and strategies.

I give it  Smiley Smiley Smiley,5   (3,5)   of  Smiley Smiley Smiley Smiley Smiley.

I would have given it 5/5 if t contained more verbal explanation. BUT if you just search a book where variations are the most important... I give it 5/5. And it is a nice book for the correspondance player.
  

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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #108 - 03/10/12 at 08:50:47
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Seth_Xoma wrote on 03/10/12 at 03:32:54:
Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 03/10/12 at 00:45:24:
Seth_Xoma wrote on 03/07/12 at 22:21:04:
What variation does Scherbakov recommend against the Exchange?


4...exd5 against Exchange.


I guess I'm wondering whether he's advocating the Exchange system as in Cox's book or the old Be7, Nbd7, c6, 0-0, Re8, Nf8, etc, variation?


Without Nf6 and the Bg5 possibility, the Exchange in the Triangle version is almost toothless as Black can easily contest the b1-h7 diagonal.
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #107 - 03/10/12 at 08:33:36
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gwnn wrote on 03/10/12 at 08:00:43:
where do you see the exchange variation covered?


Page 433: 3. Nc3 c6 4. cxd5 exd5.
  

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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #106 - 03/10/12 at 08:00:43
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where do you see the exchange variation covered?
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #105 - 03/10/12 at 03:32:54
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Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 03/10/12 at 00:45:24:
Seth_Xoma wrote on 03/07/12 at 22:21:04:
What variation does Scherbakov recommend against the Exchange?


4...exd5 against Exchange.


I guess I'm wondering whether he's advocating the Exchange system as in Cox's book or the old Be7, Nbd7, c6, 0-0, Re8, Nf8, etc, variation?
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #104 - 03/10/12 at 00:45:24
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Seth_Xoma wrote on 03/07/12 at 22:21:04:
What variation does Scherbakov recommend against the Exchange?


4...exd5 against Exchange.

I received the book today and it is excellent, quite larger than most books and about the same size as the Quality Chess Grandmaster Repertoire books in terms of width and length. Feels almost like 1 kg. Tree format with over 400 pages of variations, something I am not complaining about.
  

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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #103 - 03/07/12 at 22:21:04
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What variation does Scherbakov recommend against the Exchange?
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #102 - 03/07/12 at 17:40:24
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I've ordered this book, since for years the Noteboom was my main defence to 1.d4 and I still play it occasionally.  I agree that at sub-master level White players are often at a loss; at a tournament a few months ago, I played the Noteboom against a 2000ish player and at one point had spent about 5 minutes to his 1 hour, only to still be well within "book."  Needless to say I won that game without even really having to try (I think the time control was 40/2, and he spent the entire hour getting to move 10 or so)!  White players can end up completely lost quite easily if they haven't done any preparation.

I had a bad score in the ultra main-line, though; maybe this book will help.
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #101 - 03/07/12 at 16:24:51
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Agree.. And sometimes such tests end up with  Cry
Anyway, in this case I think I'm ready to try..  Wink
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #100 - 03/07/12 at 15:37:46
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Vass wrote on 03/06/12 at 14:00:04:
ferdia wrote on 03/06/12 at 13:34:27:
I've had this book for a couple of days and I think it is excellent. Played a couple of experimental games on ICC and fell into the 'trap' of playing an automatic combination of Qc7/Nbd7/OO in the main line against 15 Re1 (1 d4 d5 2 c4 e6 3Nc3 c6 4 Nf3 dc 5 a4 Bb4 6 e3 b5 7 Bd2 a5 8 ab Bc3 9 Bc3 cb 10 b3 Bb7 11 bc b4 12 Bb2 Nf6 13 Bd3 Nbd7 14 00 00 15 Re1 Qc7?) The book explains very clearly why 15 ...Qc7 is wrong in this case (it's usually 'right') and gives a number of viable alternatives.
I have played the Noteboom once in a serious game before and my experience bears out a point made by Scherbakov. My 2200ish opponent took about an hour to reach a book position in the mainline (he went 15 Qc2 instead and was lost after another 7 or 8 moves.) If you know the theory, the Noteboom is likely to give you a big advantage in time.
I had been looking forward to this book for a while and it gives me exactly what I was hoping for - deep analysis of main lines in the Noteboom and the Marshall plus clear ways to proceed against alternative White methods (4 Qc2, 4 g3, 4 e3 and the Exchange variation.) I will definitely be giving this line more of a go in real games.

Now that's a decent review!..
It seems I'll have to buy this book and give this Noteboom a try in my future correspondence chess games.  Cool


It is perhaps unnecessary to say that the practical advantages to which ferdia points do not exist in CC.  But as you may know, trying a line in serious correspondence play is excellent if you want to receive a severe test -- which you will get in about half your games.
  

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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #99 - 03/06/12 at 14:00:04
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ferdia wrote on 03/06/12 at 13:34:27:
I've had this book for a couple of days and I think it is excellent. Played a couple of experimental games on ICC and fell into the 'trap' of playing an automatic combination of Qc7/Nbd7/OO in the main line against 15 Re1 (1 d4 d5 2 c4 e6 3Nc3 c6 4 Nf3 dc 5 a4 Bb4 6 e3 b5 7 Bd2 a5 8 ab Bc3 9 Bc3 cb 10 b3 Bb7 11 bc b4 12 Bb2 Nf6 13 Bd3 Nbd7 14 00 00 15 Re1 Qc7?) The book explains very clearly why 15 ...Qc7 is wrong in this case (it's usually 'right') and gives a number of viable alternatives.
I have played the Noteboom once in a serious game before and my experience bears out a point made by Scherbakov. My 2200ish opponent took about an hour to reach a book position in the mainline (he went 15 Qc2 instead and was lost after another 7 or 8 moves.) If you know the theory, the Noteboom is likely to give you a big advantage in time.
I had been looking forward to this book for a while and it gives me exactly what I was hoping for - deep analysis of main lines in the Noteboom and the Marshall plus clear ways to proceed against alternative White methods (4 Qc2, 4 g3, 4 e3 and the Exchange variation.) I will definitely be giving this line more of a go in real games.

Now that's a decent review!..
It seems I'll have to buy this book and give this Noteboom a try in my future correspondence chess games.  Cool
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #98 - 03/06/12 at 13:34:27
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I've had this book for a couple of days and I think it is excellent. Played a couple of experimental games on ICC and fell into the 'trap' of playing an automatic combination of Qc7/Nbd7/OO in the main line against 15 Re1 (1 d4 d5 2 c4 e6 3Nc3 c6 4 Nf3 dc 5 a4 Bb4 6 e3 b5 7 Bd2 a5 8 ab Bc3 9 Bc3 cb 10 b3 Bb7 11 bc b4 12 Bb2 Nf6 13 Bd3 Nbd7 14 00 00 15 Re1 Qc7?) The book explains very clearly why 15 ...Qc7 is wrong in this case (it's usually 'right') and gives a number of viable alternatives.
I have played the Noteboom once in a serious game before and my experience bears out a point made by Scherbakov. My 2200ish opponent took about an hour to reach a book position in the mainline (he went 15 Qc2 instead and was lost after another 7 or 8 moves.) If you know the theory, the Noteboom is likely to give you a big advantage in time.
I had been looking forward to this book for a while and it gives me exactly what I was hoping for - deep analysis of main lines in the Noteboom and the Marshall plus clear ways to proceed against alternative White methods (4 Qc2, 4 g3, 4 e3 and the Exchange variation.) I will definitely be giving this line more of a go in real games.
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #97 - 03/06/12 at 08:24:44
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Yes, I was reading the introduction, especially this part on p. 6:

This book gives a complete and well-organized repertoire for Black, based on the Slav
Triangle. However, I didn’t avoid any problems Black may face, so it should be also helpful
for White players in their search for a way to counter the Triangle. I tried to remain as objective as possible


and I read some of the excerpt. It does not seem to be a complete guide, since Scherbakov gives, for example, the Stonewall for the 3. Nf3 c6 4. e3 line, instead of covering every single line that Black can play. So it seems as if he gives multiple alternatives for critical lines and sometimes one line for the less critical lines.
  

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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #96 - 03/06/12 at 08:14:53
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Well to me personally yes I think it strengthens it (by the way, Scherbakov says in the introduction that he intended this book as a guide to help you build your own repertoire and/or to choose a line based on you feel on a given day). Not every day do I want to concede a check on d8 by move 10, for instance. But yes there really is a lot of material so I can't say very much on where exactly the book lies between encyclopaedia and repertoire book.
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #95 - 03/06/12 at 07:11:31
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I guess that would not matter, I mean do you think the approach of Scherbakov's offering more than one line in the repertoire strengthens the book?
  

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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #94 - 03/06/12 at 06:47:53
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Don't have that one, sorry.
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #93 - 03/06/12 at 00:17:20
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Would you say it is similar to Janjgava's book on the QGD in terms of how extensive the repertoire is since there are many options for Black?
  

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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #92 - 03/05/12 at 23:43:38
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Yes, it is quite denser than other books I have. I think it is very detailed. Perhaps on par with GM repertoire books but probably slightly falls short. That is because there's quite a bit of explanation too and the letters are bigger. Well anyway, it is enough for the whole Trans-Siberian railway I think!
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #91 - 03/05/12 at 23:07:41
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Is the paper making the book denser? The above post also said that the book was approximately ¾ kg so, perhaps just like Quality Chess books, the paper is the reason that the book is not at the expected height.

Anyway did you start reading it? Would you say the detail of the book is good for 2300+?
  

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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #90 - 03/05/12 at 20:52:00
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Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 03/05/12 at 19:54:02:
gwnn wrote on 03/05/12 at 09:47:09:
It feels to my non-initiated hands identical to Quality Chess paper. It feels like a much more quality product than the move by move series (I have the Slav and Nimzo books), double column, smaller diagrams, etc. Of course this is all quite beside the point. And there is something that I think I've seen mostly in Gambit books, but maybe also in some QC/EC books: when there's a crossroads, the book gives you the page numbers (e.g. A Rb1 pg 15, B Rc1 pg 18, C Ra2!? pg 19).


My copy is due to arrive tomorrow and this sounds like a good book. So if it is Quality Chess paper, then the book is smaller than others previously? I think one other post above said that the book was 2 cm vertically?

It is quite thin, I thought I've been had when I got it. Two books that have a similar size are Playing the Queen's Gambit  (but this one is thicker and has bigger letters) and Understanding Chess Middlegames.

To some other questions: I don't think 2 Nf3 is covered. And I might be wrong about the Stonewall after all after reading a bit. It just seems to be a question of move orders. Scherbakov likes the Stonewall more vs some setups than others. Not sure! Like I said, it is a long long book.
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #89 - 03/05/12 at 19:54:02
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gwnn wrote on 03/05/12 at 09:47:09:
It feels to my non-initiated hands identical to Quality Chess paper. It feels like a much more quality product than the move by move series (I have the Slav and Nimzo books), double column, smaller diagrams, etc. Of course this is all quite beside the point. And there is something that I think I've seen mostly in Gambit books, but maybe also in some QC/EC books: when there's a crossroads, the book gives you the page numbers (e.g. A Rb1 pg 15, B Rc1 pg 18, C Ra2!? pg 19).


My copy is due to arrive tomorrow and this sounds like a good book. So if it is Quality Chess paper, then the book is smaller than others previously? I think one other post above said that the book was 2 cm vertically?
  

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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #88 - 03/05/12 at 19:31:22
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Well the whole point of the thing is to not move any black knights early Smiley
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #87 - 03/05/12 at 19:15:35
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I can't wait for this book to arrive. Is there any mention of move orders against 2.Nf3 ? I'm playing the Tartakower at the moment and am interested in the Noteboom to give a more aggressive option. However, against 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 is it necessary to allow a normal QGD with 2..., Nf6 or would 2..., c6 be better ?
        All the best, Adam.

P.S. The previews I've seen mean I've rarely looked forward to a book so much.
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #86 - 03/05/12 at 09:47:09
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It feels to my non-initiated hands identical to Quality Chess paper. It feels like a much more quality product than the move by move series (I have the Slav and Nimzo books), double column, smaller diagrams, etc. Of course this is all quite beside the point. And there is something that I think I've seen mostly in Gambit books, but maybe also in some QC/EC books: when there's a crossroads, the book gives you the page numbers (e.g. A Rb1 pg 15, B Rc1 pg 18, C Ra2!? pg 19).
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #85 - 03/05/12 at 09:14:08
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What is the difference with this book's paper and other books? Is the paper like the new Quality Chess paper? I still do not quite understand.

I looked at the excerpt, and some pages look like the analysis is so dense that it might take more than three hours per page to read, which is not a bad thing. It is good to see multiple choices in a repertoire book as well.
  

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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #84 - 03/05/12 at 08:52:48
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I notice he sometimes offers as many as three different lines for Black, albeit perhaps not in White sidelines. I, for one, will surely play 4 .. Bb4 to avoid the Marshall. Brrrr... (But I looked at his lines and compared with the John Cox d4 book and looks like Scherbakov found a good way against all tries - well that was to be expected seeing as the d4 book had the Marshall covered in less than 10 pages more than 5 years ago - in fact credit to the old book as there are still plenty of unclear positions with a White initiative). And players who hate that turnip on c8 in the Stonewall rest assured, he offers non-Stonewall setups too. I think in all lines but I didn't check the book *that* deeply.

And at the risk of sounding like a superficial person, I agree that the paper is great!
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #83 - 03/05/12 at 01:15:33
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I ordered my copy. Anyone else who has the book, how do you find the repertoire?
  

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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #82 - 03/04/12 at 21:52:09
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Is this same line also given in Scherbakov's book?
  

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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #81 - 03/04/12 at 20:55:25
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Well, it certainly is in IM Bronznik's Beating the Guerrilla's. According to him 12...Ne4 is better than 12...Nbd7.
  

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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #80 - 03/04/12 at 00:59:29
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Is Avrukh's recommendation considered in the book? I think it would be 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 e6 4. e3 f5.
« Last Edit: 03/04/12 at 04:00:57 by Gilchrist is a legend »  

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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #79 - 03/03/12 at 15:08:36
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Vass wrote on 03/02/12 at 22:54:21:
Maybe because the good correspondent players never play such opening moves..who knows?!  Roll Eyes

That certainly can't be ruled out. Also thanks.
  

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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #78 - 03/03/12 at 00:38:47
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I am considering buying this book since the opening sounds interesting. And I also need a good book for a long train ride soon.
  

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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #77 - 03/02/12 at 22:54:21
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@MNb
I respect your opinion. 4...Nd7 and 5...a6 is an interesting idea. But, my choice as the first player could be:

1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 e6 4.e3 Nd7 5.Bd3!? (my mark) and if 5...dxc4 6.Bxc4 b5 7.Bd3 a6 8.a4!? (or 8.0-0 Bb7 9.a4!?) or similar...trying to secure c4-square for my queen's knight.. It's a common idea in such positions with early b7-b5 while the white knight is still on b1. That's why most of the players in this exact position play 5...Ngf6 instead of 5...dxc4 accepting the Meran as BPaulsen already stated. As for the other option (though not mentioned here) 5...Bd6 I like the straight 6.e4!? (as in Jankovic-Hulak, Sibenik CRO-cht, 2007).
In addition, I'm sorry I couldn't find some high-class correspondent chess games with 4...Nd7 and 5....a6 (in response to 5.Nbc3) though I have more than fifteen correspondent chess databases (ICCF, IECG, IECC, FICGS, OM Corr, Mega Corr, Ultra Corr, Echecs Email, Chess OK Corr, Best Logic...and alike). Maybe because the good correspondent players never play such opening moves..who knows?!  Roll Eyes
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #76 - 03/02/12 at 21:40:43
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BPaulsen wrote on 03/02/12 at 19:38:30:
Preference? Perhaps.

No, that only applies to me. I play chess for fun and I have a limited taste. Thanks for your answer. That was the kind I was looking for.

BPaulsen wrote on 03/02/12 at 19:38:30:
But also the play is dictated to white rather than the opposite being the case.

Yes. I do my best to prevent my subjevity from oppressing objectivity and to find a nice equilibrium.
  

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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #75 - 03/02/12 at 21:21:25
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Jonathan Tait wrote on 03/02/12 at 21:06:29:
Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 03/02/12 at 20:00:58:
Is the book heavy? How long is it from cover to cover? Just asking because I want to know for shipping purposes. And I saw somewhere in the introduction that the repertoire is objective. Do you find it that way?


Approx weight (using kitchen scales): 750g
Dimensions (if that's what you mean by long): 24x17x2 cm
Objective: yes — as far as I can tell, given that I don't really know much about these lines


Thanks.

I meant objective as in do some lines in the book have final evaluations of +=, or do most of the lines in the book he finds a route to equalisation?
« Last Edit: 03/02/12 at 23:01:17 by Gilchrist is a legend »  

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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #74 - 03/02/12 at 21:06:29
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Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 03/02/12 at 20:00:58:
Is the book heavy? How long is it from cover to cover? Just asking because I want to know for shipping purposes. And I saw somewhere in the introduction that the repertoire is objective. Do you find it that way?


Approx weight (using kitchen scales): 750g
Dimensions (if that's what you mean by long): 24x17x2 cm
Objective: yes — as far as I can tell, given that I don't really know much about these lines
  

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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #73 - 03/02/12 at 20:00:58
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Jonathan Tait wrote on 03/01/12 at 12:46:00:
Arrived this morning. My first thought:

Nice paper! Smiley


Is the book heavy? How long is it from cover to cover? Just asking because I want to know for shipping purposes. And I saw somewhere in the introduction that the repertoire is objective. Do you find it that way?
  

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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #72 - 03/02/12 at 19:38:30
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MNb wrote on 03/02/12 at 19:14:58:
BPaulsen wrote on 03/02/12 at 17:17:07:
Look at it this way - given the Bc8 is often solved via ...b6/...Bb7 in the case of the Nf3+Bd3/Be2 set-ups, it's just a Colle with a pawn on f5 and better control of the e4 square. The e5 square can generally be lived with.

Same non-answer as Vass. So I repeat:

I will not play the Stonewall as Black. Period.

BPaulsen wrote on 03/02/12 at 17:17:07:
Scherbakov did a really good job on addressing the Stonewall stuff.

Nice for him. Irrelevant for my question:

Is there anything wrong with 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 c6 4.e3 Nd7 idea 5.Nc3 a6 etc.?


5.Nc3 Nf6 just heading directly into the Meran would make more sense, unless you have some particular liking for that very passive Chebanenko, because that's what 5.Nc3 a6 ultimately will transpose into.

5.b3 would be the more typical treatment for the solid/quiet type that aim to retain flexibility should black opt for a Semi-Slav or Stonewall set up. If you don't mind defending the black cause in those positions where you'll be hit with the Ne5+f4 ideas and are willing to prepare them - have at it. They're definitely not fatal, but I can't say they're much fun for the black cause, either. Note that due to your move order you would lose out on stuff like 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 c6 4.e3 Nf6 5.b3 (5.Nbd2 limits white to set-ups involving Nd2 over Nc3) c5!?, noted previously on here by Markovich, and since picked up in practice by numerous GMs with good results.

Refusing to play the Stonewall at all just makes no sense to me. If something is good and it works, then it's good and it works. Why avoid it and make life harder on yourself than it otherwise needs to be? This isn't a criticism, I am honestly wondering.

Struck with defending the Slav Stonewall or the attempts by white to avoid the Meran with b3/Nbd2 and the like I would undoubtedly choose the former. Preference? Perhaps. But also the play is dictated to white rather than the opposite being the case.

Carry on.
  

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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #71 - 03/02/12 at 19:14:58
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BPaulsen wrote on 03/02/12 at 17:17:07:
Look at it this way - given the Bc8 is often solved via ...b6/...Bb7 in the case of the Nf3+Bd3/Be2 set-ups, it's just a Colle with a pawn on f5 and better control of the e4 square. The e5 square can generally be lived with.

Same non-answer as Vass. So I repeat:

I will not play the Stonewall as Black. Period.

BPaulsen wrote on 03/02/12 at 17:17:07:
Scherbakov did a really good job on addressing the Stonewall stuff.

Nice for him. Irrelevant for my question:

Is there anything wrong with 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 c6 4.e3 Nd7 idea 5.Nc3 a6 etc.?
  

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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #70 - 03/02/12 at 17:17:07
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@MNb

Look at it this way - given the Bc8 is often solved via ...b6/...Bb7 in the case of the Nf3+Bd3/Be2 set-ups, it's just a Colle with a pawn on f5 and better control of the e4 square. The e5 square can generally be lived with.

Scherbakov did a really good job on addressing the Stonewall stuff.
  

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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #69 - 03/02/12 at 17:07:23
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Vass wrote on 03/02/12 at 09:55:43:
And I wonder why?..

That Bishop on c8, as I wrote in my previous post. Call it personal preference, bias or an emotional blockade, no matter how many games you post, you won't convince me. I will not play the Stonewall as Black. Period.

Yeah, I know about the Chebanenko.
Now I would really appreciate it if somebody addressed my question iso making suggestions: is there anything wrong with 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 c6 4.e3 Nd7 idea 5.Nc3 a6 etc.?
  

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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #68 - 03/02/12 at 10:48:33
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Chessexplained wrote on 03/02/12 at 10:22:50:
This Stonewall indeed seems ok for black, especially if white is comitted to Nf3 already (no g4 or Bd3,Nge2 setups).


This point is the same Bronznik makes in his Beat the Guerillas, coupled together with the point that White has closed in the dark-squared bishop. I agree, I wouldn't want to play this way against the Stonewall.

The line with 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c6 4.e3 Nf6 5.Nf3 a6 is interesting, and also more in the same spirit as Slav stuff than the Dutch Stonewall.
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #67 - 03/02/12 at 10:22:50
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This Stonewall indeed seems ok for black, especially if white is comitted to Nf3 already (no g4 or Bd3,Nge2 setups). If you want a less explored line, I'd recommend 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c6 4.e3 Nf6 5.Nf3 a6 (instead of main line Meran with Nbd7). It's not exactly a rare line nowadays, but seems fully playable and avoids lots of complexities of the Meran. A nice point vs. less booked up opponents is that 6.Bd3 is rather harmless.
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #66 - 03/02/12 at 09:55:43
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MNb wrote on 03/01/12 at 21:37:26:
A related question, perhaps not worthy it's own thread. After 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 e6 4.e3 the usual recommendation is 4...f5, but I don't like the Stonewall at all because of that Bishop on c8.

And I wonder why?.. This exact Stonewall formation is way better for black than the main line formation with g2-g3 and Bf1-g2. One of my recent correspondent games as the second player went like this:


And in the next tournament he tried to enforce white with:



I'm waiting for the next time when we will play this setup again..  Wink
This means I believe in this setup for black.  Cool
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #65 - 03/02/12 at 09:46:52
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Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 03/02/12 at 02:28:42:
Is the paper different? Is it like the paper in the Attacking Chess: King's Indian Volume 2 book?

Dunno about the other book, but I'd guess it's different. Probably, because Scherbakov has written so much, the only way to get it all between the covers was to use really high-grade paper.

Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 03/02/12 at 02:28:42:
But the more important question: How is the book with regards to content?

It looks like very diligent work. For instance, there are whole sections which seem to be just his analysis.

As to any theoretically difficult questions, someone else will have to say, since I'm not an expert on these lines. I've only played a few games in the Marshall Gambit, mostly as White, mostly without success, one of which he actually mentions.

  

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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #64 - 03/02/12 at 09:44:54
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You can probably tell by the countless sample pages on amazon.co.uk, no? It looks like a tree format with a lot of depth but also a lot of explanation. No wonder it's 450 pages long.
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #63 - 03/02/12 at 02:28:42
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Jonathan Tait wrote on 03/01/12 at 12:46:00:
Arrived this morning. My first thought:

Nice paper! Smiley


Is the paper different? Is it like the paper in the Attacking Chess: King's Indian Volume 2 book?

But the more important question: How is the book with regards to content?
  

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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #62 - 03/01/12 at 21:37:26
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A related question, perhaps not worthy it's own thread. After 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 e6 4.e3 the usual recommendation is 4...f5, but I don't like the Stonewall at all because of that Bishop on c8. At the other hand the transposition to the Meran with 4...Nf6 is overkill.
So I wondered if 4...Nd7 and 5...a6 is a viable idea. The point is 4...Nd7 5.Nc3 a6 6.Bd3 dxc4 7.Bxc4 b5 8.Bd3 Bb7, which is similar to the Meran, but seems to cut down on theory.
Are there any specific objections? Like 6.b3 and 6.Qc2 ? Or a setup with Nd2 ?
  

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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #61 - 03/01/12 at 12:46:00
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Arrived this morning. My first thought:

Nice paper! Smiley
  

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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #60 - 02/29/12 at 13:02:31
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For minute it looks as if Amazon.co.uk enable you to read the entire book for free with their 'look inside' feature.  Until, that is, you realise that no matter how many hundreds of sample pages they provide, it's still not the full 400+.
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #59 - 02/28/12 at 09:26:15
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I received a reply from Everyman this morning, confirming it is now available in the UK. My order will be in today.
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #58 - 02/27/12 at 13:19:29
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Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 02/11/12 at 00:59:55:
When in February is this book due to be published?

I usually buy stuff from a dutch site (debestezet) and they already have it available, but when I ordered it they apologised for the mistake and said they would send it on Friday.
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #57 - 02/11/12 at 02:43:13
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Having gotten a really good look at it as part of writing my own book, I can say without hesitation that this book is an amazing treatise on the Noteboom, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was the best written to date on the subject. Readers will not be disappointed. GM Scherbakov's objectivity is refreshing, and his work is very, very thorough - improvements for both sides are teeming.

...And it will definitely advance the discussion of the main line Noteboom. It will be every bit as important to prospective white players facing it as the black players looking to take it up.

Simply put, it's a must have for anyone that faces it or uses it, and has got to be one of the early favorites for book of the year. That's my opinion, anyway.
  

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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #56 - 02/11/12 at 00:59:55
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When in February is this book due to be published?
  

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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #55 - 02/05/12 at 09:01:43
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@MaxJudd

I did not do anything special for those statistics. I just sorted out (with chessbase) games with both players above 2500 oder between 2000 and 2500 and so on. Now you can see in the statistics which move was played how often and what was White´s average ELO.
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #54 - 02/05/12 at 08:56:53
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I gladly accept your apology. Let´s hope for some detailed information in book.

Maybe we can discuss some critical variations when Scherbakov gives us the much needed overview and points out what´s critical. That´s not that easy today.

Since Scherbabov understandably did no recent update on the noteboom mainlines in chesspub, the most interesting problem for me is the following game:

Jakovenko,Dmitrij (2718) - Grigorian,Avetik (2608) [D31]
EU-ch 12th Aix-les-Bains (7), 28.03.2011
1.c4 c6 2.Sf3 d5 3.d4 e6 4.Sc3 dxc4 5.a4 Lb4 6.e3 b5 7.Ld2 Lb7 8.axb5 Lxc3 9.Lxc3 cxb5 10.b3 a5 11.bxc4 b4 12.Lb2 Sf6 13.Ld3 0–0 14.0–0 Sbd7 15.Sd2 Dc7 16.f3 e5 17.Kh1 Tfe8 18.Dc2 h6 19.Tfd1 exd4 20.exd4 Df4 21.Sf1 Sh5 22.Lc1 Dh4 23.Le3 Sf4 24.Lf5 Sf6 25.d5 S6xd5 26.cxd5 Sxd5 27.Ld4 Sf4 28.Sg3 Sh5 29.Lh7+ Kh8 30.Sf5 Df4 31.Sd6 Te7 32.Sxb7 Txb7 33.Le4 Tc7 34.Dd2 Dxd2 35.Txd2 Tac8 36.Tdd1 Sf6 37.Lxf6 gxf6 38.Txa5 b3 39.Tb5 Tc1 40.Tg1 1–0
If the big boys recently played the white side, they chose the 15. Nd2 (sorry for the german annotation before)
Krasenkow points out 21...b3! as an improvement and it looks convincing, but I´m curious about Scherbakovs analysis.
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #53 - 02/05/12 at 01:33:48
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I suppose that I should apologize to derdudea for unduly pointed remarks, and so I do.

But I found it quite striking that the claim that all is specificity in chess, conjoined with precisely no analysis, was offered as evidence of anything. Anyone could say for example, "I have a fantastic record with Latvian, and since all is specificity in chess, any principled judgment of the Latvian should be ignored." Or further, "If only I had a dollar for every time somone told me that the Latvian introduces a fatal weakness in Black's kingside." The whole form of argument seemed to me to be presumptuous.

But I regret the intensity of my reaction.

  

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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #52 - 02/04/12 at 20:13:50
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This is really interesting.  I am a typical club player and have had experience consistent with these numbers.  I see 5 e4 very often which is nearly absent from the databases.

This may be off topic to this thread but how does one stratify database runs by rating?  Is there already a thread on this?  If not, is this easier to do in Chessbase or in Chess Assistant (or somewhere else such as Chess.com )?   What database do you start with?

derdudea wrote on 02/03/12 at 22:34:54:
The Noteboom is not whole opening complex, but a pretty special variation giving White very limited choice. If White had as much ways to play against the Noteboom as against the Grünfeld, it would be much easier for him to find a way to have a tangible advantage. White´s best choice is to deviate before 4...dxc4. So most elite players do...

Some  statistics to compare:
Position 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Sf3 e6.
1.White´s average Elo 1912: 4.Nc3 is the most often played move (in 40%) of the games
2.White´s average Elo 2259: 4.Nc3 is the most often played move (in 27,5%) of the games
3.White´s average Elo: 2567: 4.Nc3 is the fourth - often played move (in 12,5% of the games)

The better White´s ELO is, the more likely he will avoid the Noteboom.

I would not so say that the whole triangle complex as a complete answer to the closed games is better than the Slav or the Grünfeld, but the lower the level of of your opponents is the more likely you will come away with a good game in the Noteboom or an completely innocuous stonewall setup.
And if you´re usually playing opponents <2200, you pretty sure have an easier life as Black playing the triangle than playing the Grünfeld if you know your stuff well.

  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #51 - 02/04/12 at 15:01:36
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I did not offer any analysis, all I offered was my personal correspondence playing experience which was simply ridiculed by Markovich and some observations about the way top players deal with the noteboom.

That´s not much, but I did not feel obliged to answer with analysis to an argument of the kind "according to the general rules of chess, there has to be a stong line for White". Which analysis should be able to refute such a metaphysical claim?

Of course I don´t know whether the Noteboom is a clear equalizer. But until today White did not find the holy grail and therefore avoids the line. So less enlightened players might guess it´s equal until White prooves an advantage. So did I.

Hopefully a lot of my future opponents believe in White´s chances and do not avoid it.
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #50 - 02/04/12 at 13:44:13
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Bibs wrote on 02/04/12 at 11:42:58:
Presumably for good reason.

Like Markovich implied it would have been nice if Derdudea had given these reasons as well.

Markovich wrote on 02/04/12 at 04:43:38:
revealing to the chess world the deep variations that he no doubt has in hand, must have indeed, since all is specificity in chess, to back up his claim that the Noteboom is fully adequate.


derdudea wrote on 02/03/12 at 17:38:58:
the Noteboom is a ..... safe equalizer against 1.d4/1.c4/1.Nf3, if White allows the Noteboom mainline.

That's the end of the debate, isn't it? Derdudea knows. Alas Markovich and I still don't.
  

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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #49 - 02/04/12 at 11:42:58
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Markovich's comments were unwarranted and unnecessarily abrasive.

Derdudea's comments all seemed sensible enough to me. I am wary of chess stats, but does seem to bear out what I understood, that it is usually avoided. Presumably for good reason. Presumably theoretical value and the somewhat irrational 'all-in' slugging mine v yours type positions. But I'm a bit weak, so best ask a few people who are high rated.

Anyhow, I look forward to reading this book. Let's not get too sidetracked.
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #48 - 02/04/12 at 09:38:51
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I think its the apparent certainty being expressed that he doesn't like.

Which is fair, because there are sorts of precedents for things we 'knew' being wrong. Especially in something so fundamentally complex as this stuff is.

It'd be a silly thing to get into a heated argument about mind Smiley
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #47 - 02/04/12 at 07:54:08
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Seth_Xoma wrote on 02/04/12 at 04:54:55:
I sensed nothing in derdudea's posts that deserved such a patronizing response, but maybe that's just me.


That´s not only you. But I guess it was well deserved.

How could I doubt a certain moderators statement that was against the current status of theory but based on his unique insight in the eternal principles of chess? There must be forum rule against such blasphemous behaviour.

Now only GM Scherbakov can save my silly mortals soul, but only if 2500 ELO is enough to be taken seriously.
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #46 - 02/04/12 at 04:54:55
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I sensed nothing in derdudea's posts that deserved such a patronizing response, but maybe that's just me.
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #45 - 02/04/12 at 04:43:38
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Fascinating. We must hope that Sherbakov has consulted extensively with derdudea, or at least made a deep study of his games. If not, then derdudea himself should turn around and write a proper Noteboom book, revealing to the chess world the deep variations that he no doubt has in hand, must have indeed, since all is specificity in chess, to back up his claim that the Noteboom is fully adequate.

But you have to feel sorry for poor old Sherbakov, who has labored so many months on his book, when all the time derdudea could have supplied him with numerous, highly specific answers to prove Black's case.

Just imagine, though. So many tricky positions, uncertain to so many people, and in each and every case derdudea has it all worked out in Black's favor. It's monumental.
  

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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #44 - 02/03/12 at 22:34:54
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The Noteboom is not whole opening complex, but a pretty special variation giving White very limited choice. If White had as much ways to play against the Noteboom as against the Grünfeld, it would be much easier for him to find a way to have a tangible advantage. White´s best choice is to deviate before 4...dxc4. So most elite players do...

Some  statistics to compare:
Position 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Sf3 e6.
1.White´s average Elo 1912: 4.Nc3 is the most often played move (in 40%) of the games
2.White´s average Elo 2259: 4.Nc3 is the most often played move (in 27,5%) of the games
3.White´s average Elo: 2567: 4.Nc3 is the fourth - often played move (in 12,5% of the games)

The better White´s ELO is, the more likely he will avoid the Noteboom.

I would not so say that the whole triangle complex as a complete answer to the closed games is better than the Slav or the Grünfeld, but the lower the level of of your opponents is the more likely you will come away with a good game in the Noteboom or an completely innocuous stonewall setup.
And if you´re usually playing opponents <2200, you pretty sure have an easier life as Black playing the triangle than playing the Grünfeld if you know your stuff well.
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #43 - 02/03/12 at 21:34:23
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If the Noteboom equalises so easily, how is it that more reputable openings such as the Grünfeld and Slav are not clear equalisers?
  

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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #42 - 02/03/12 at 17:38:58
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Markovich wrote on 02/02/12 at 17:26:21:
It seems you're convinced that the Noteboom is bad for White.  I'm not.  Completely independently of current theory, I think that some sort of strong line of play will eventually emerge for White.  In fact, this book may hasten its arrival.  My point of view is that White is White, and he has played nothing but good moves.  Black on the other hand, tsk.

But Sherbakov's contributions on Chess Publishing have been so impressive that I'm sure this will be a great book.


I play the triangle against 1.d4/c4/Nf3 for three years now in correspondence chess, most of the time against 2000 - 2350 (ICCF rating) competition scoring 64% with Black and for the same time I´m promoting it here in the forum.

If I only got a dollar for every time I read
1) "There has to be a good line in the Noteboom for White since all he did was playing good opening moves"
or
2)"Black has problems in the line 3.Nf3 and 4.Qc2! and therefore should only enter the triangle after 3.Nc3"

1) If we learned anything about chess in the last 20 years, it is that there is no principle in chess without exceptions. And until someone proves the Noteboom players wrong, the Noteboom is a highly complicated, but safe equalizer against 1.d4/1.c4/1.Nf3, if White allows the Noteboom mainline. Maybe there is an exception to the rule that playing only (in principle) good opening moves should give you a chance to play for advantage? 

2) The line may be White´s best try to get an advantage, but after 4.Qc2 dxc4 5.Qxc4 Nf6 I really can´t see Black facing more problems than in other Semi-Slav mainlines. White is White in this line and that´s much better than he does entering the Noteboom mainlines and even better than playing 4.e3, allowing all kinds of Semi-Slavs (he might did not want to play) and a good version of the Stonewall, where White usually gets only a little more than nothing.

So White has two lines against that whole triangle/stonewall complex where he can fight for an advantage. That´s not too much, regarding that the has absolutely nothing against the Noteboom and in most stonewall setups.

In my games, in 4 of 5 games I equalise pretty easy, the rest are fighting games. In 53 games, I scored 65%, loosing only 5 games, two of them due to  unforced errors (analysing the wrong position).
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #41 - 02/03/12 at 16:57:59
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Vass wrote on 02/03/12 at 08:15:28:
Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 02/02/12 at 21:27:58:
I like how the book uses the tree variation rather than complete games; it seems to save more space for analysing the actual details of the variations rather than spend space on the full game score.

I always liked this approach, too.. It's way better than presenting the material in complete games where even endgames are analyzed by the author. The latter can be useful for the beginners, I agree.. But it's an opening book after all.  Angry

Buy the game format actually help one to understand the move and how teh position plays into it. Just the move will be like reading a song, rather than listening to it.
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #40 - 02/03/12 at 08:15:28
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Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 02/02/12 at 21:27:58:
I like how the book uses the tree variation rather than complete games; it seems to save more space for analysing the actual details of the variations rather than spend space on the full game score.

I always liked this approach, too.. It's way better than presenting the material in complete games where even endgames are analyzed by the author. The latter can be useful for the beginners, I agree.. But it's an opening book after all.  Angry
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #39 - 02/02/12 at 21:27:58
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I like how the book uses the tree variation rather than complete games; it seems to save more space for analysing the actual details of the variations rather than spend space on the full game score.
  

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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #38 - 02/02/12 at 17:26:21
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derdudea wrote on 02/02/12 at 09:31:16:
I´m sure it will be one the best repertoires against 1.d4 (and c4 and Nf3) available. For me, it´s not good - I got some nice correspondence chess wins with black from because people allowed entering the Noteboom due to a lack of decent opening books covering ist. I guess, some of them will stop doing so and others will be much better prepared.


It seems you're convinced that the Noteboom is bad for White.  I'm not.  Completely independently of current theory, I think that some sort of strong line of play will eventually emerge for White.  In fact, this book may hasten its arrival.  My point of view is that White is White, and he has played nothing but good moves.  Black on the other hand, tsk.

But Sherbakov's contributions on Chess Publishing have been so impressive that I'm sure this will be a great book.
  

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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #37 - 02/02/12 at 09:31:16
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I´m sure it will be one the best repertoires against 1.d4 (and c4 and Nf3) available. For me, it´s not good - I got some nice correspondence chess wins with black from because people allowed entering the Noteboom due to a lack of decent opening books covering ist. I guess, some of them will stop doing so and others will be much better prepared.
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #36 - 02/02/12 at 03:25:05
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I just saw the excerpt on the Everyman website. It looks like a very detailed repertoire book with a lot of variations, and over 400 pages.
  

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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #35 - 02/02/12 at 01:51:00
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I don't think that's right, since 3.Nf3 c6 4.g3 must lead either to a closed Catalan, a Stonewall (against which a Catalan player must play anyway), or 4...dxc4, a dicey line whose merits may be debated, but which to me seems promising for White.
  

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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #34 - 01/31/12 at 08:30:33
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saubhikr wrote on 01/29/12 at 04:38:43:
I am seeing a lot of fear on Catalan while discussing these lines. Fear may be a strong word but that's what it felt like. Is it really so or we are just overemphasizing something or sharing personal choice.



Fear is probably too strong a word. But one of the benefits of this line is that it dulls the Catalan as a weapon. That's an important feature that needs to be pointed out.
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #33 - 01/29/12 at 04:38:43
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I am seeing a lot of fear on Catalan while discussing these lines. Fear may be a strong word but that's what it felt like. Is it really so or we are just overemphasizing something or sharing personal choice.
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #32 - 01/25/12 at 12:35:17
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We both meant 1...e6, of course. You may be right. My point was that learning the Noteboom-Marshall is a lot of work if your main goal is to reach a Stonewall.

If I myself were a Stonewall player, I would probably play 1...f5 and tough it out in 2.d3 Nc6 3.d4 e6.
« Last Edit: 01/25/12 at 13:57:20 by Markovich »  

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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #31 - 01/24/12 at 03:54:48
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I'm surprised at the recommendation of the stonewall after e3 when Nf3 hasn't been played. In Lubomir Ftacnik's d4 repertoire he gives a simple set up for white to play, based on Lautier, J - Tregubov, F (19.06.2004) that looks a very easy and effective system for white (Bd3, Qc2, Nge2, f3, 0-0...)
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #30 - 01/24/12 at 02:34:19
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Seth_Xoma wrote on 01/21/12 at 02:31:52:
Markovich wrote on 01/08/12 at 13:33:08:
It may be worth noting that Shulman, a major Triangle practitioner, only plays it after 3.Nc3. If 3.Nf3, he plays 3...Nf6, allowing the Catalan, and if then 4.Nc3, he plays 4...dxc4, which usually turns into a Vienna.

Secondly, if anyone plans to use the Triangle move order to avoid the Catalan, after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 c6 4.g3, he has to play 4...dxc4. Because 4...f5 becomes the main line  of  Stonewall, and if he allows that, he might just as well play the Stonewall in the first place and forget the Triangle. Personally I think that most Catalan players would be happy to see 4...dxc4. I faced it as White once and won fairly easily from a position that my books claimed was equal.


What if White enters the Catalan from a 1.Nf3 move order and Black doesn't want to play against 1...f5 2.d3?


The are various answers to that, suppoing 2.d3 to be worth avoiding, that don't require Black to learn both the Stonewall, the Noteboom and the Marshall. 1...e3 is one, am I wrong?
  

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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #29 - 01/24/12 at 02:34:09
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Seth_Xoma wrote on 01/21/12 at 02:31:52:
Markovich wrote on 01/08/12 at 13:33:08:
It may be worth noting that Shulman, a major Triangle practitioner, only plays it after 3.Nc3. If 3.Nf3, he plays 3...Nf6, allowing the Catalan, and if then 4.Nc3, he plays 4...dxc4, which usually turns into a Vienna.

Secondly, if anyone plans to use the Triangle move order to avoid the Catalan, after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 c6 4.g3, he has to play 4...dxc4. Because 4...f5 becomes the main line  of  Stonewall, and if he allows that, he might just as well play the Stonewall in the first place and forget the Triangle. Personally I think that most Catalan players would be happy to see 4...dxc4. I faced it as White once and won fairly easily from a position that my books claimed was equal.


What if White enters the Catalan from a 1.Nf3 move order and Black doesn't want to play against 1...f5 2.d3?


The are various answers to that, suppoing 2.d3 to be worth avoiding, that don't require Black to learn both the Stonewall, the Noteboom and the Marshall. 1...e3 is one, am I wrong?
  

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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #28 - 01/21/12 at 22:55:43
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Zwischenzugzwang wrote on 01/21/12 at 11:04:46:
I'm sure, very soon FIDE will prohibit all transpositions!  Cheesy


Oh yes, please.

You´re both right. the line occurs after 1.c4 e6 2.g3 d5 3.Nf3 dxc4 or 1.Nf3....3.c4...
The transposition to the french of course only occurs after 1.Nf3, I mixed this up.
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #27 - 01/21/12 at 11:04:46
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I'm sure, very soon FIDE will prohibit all transpositions!  Cheesy
  

What do people mean when they say "Chess is the pawn of the soul"?
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #26 - 01/21/12 at 09:54:26
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 01/21/12 at 08:58:28:
derdudea wrote on 01/21/12 at 08:10:37:
1.Nf3 d5 2.g3 Bg4 3.Bg2 Nd7 looks like a decent, non-transposing option. Kramnik, Shirov and Scherbakov (!) used to play it some years ago and some other strong players (Rublevski, Wang Hao) still play it.

I´m playing Scherbakovs repertoire for years (and very succesfully in correspondence chess) but I´m not an expert on this line, since I play the French and therefore will be happy with 1.Nf3 e6 2.e4. If White plays 2.g3 d5 3.Nf3 dxc4 4.Qa4 is acceptable and will not transpose to Catalan mainlines.

Derudea, I'm not following your last line. When does White play c4, on move 1?

Presumably on move three...
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #25 - 01/21/12 at 08:58:28
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derdudea wrote on 01/21/12 at 08:10:37:
1.Nf3 d5 2.g3 Bg4 3.Bg2 Nd7 looks like a decent, non-transposing option. Kramnik, Shirov and Scherbakov (!) used to play it some years ago and some other strong players (Rublevski, Wang Hao) still play it.

I´m playing Scherbakovs repertoire for years (and very succesfully in correspondence chess) but I´m not an expert on this line, since I play the French and therefore will be happy with 1.Nf3 e6 2.e4. If White plays 2.g3 d5 3.Nf3 dxc4 4.Qa4 is acceptable and will not transpose to Catalan mainlines.

Derudea, I'm not following your last line. When does White play c4, on move 1?
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #24 - 01/21/12 at 08:10:37
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1.Nf3 d5 2.g3 Bg4 3.Bg2 Nd7 looks like a decent, non-transposing option. Kramnik, Shirov and Scherbakov (!) used to play it some years ago and some other strong players (Rublevski, Wang Hao) still play it.

I´m playing Scherbakovs repertoire for years (and very succesfully in correspondence chess) but I´m not an expert on this line, since I play the French and therefore will be happy with 1.Nf3 e6 2.e4. If White plays 2.g3 d5 3.Nf3 dxc4 4.Qa4 is acceptable and will not transpose to Catalan mainlines.
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #23 - 01/21/12 at 02:31:52
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Markovich wrote on 01/08/12 at 13:33:08:
It may be worth noting that Shulman, a major Triangle practitioner, only plays it after 3.Nc3. If 3.Nf3, he plays 3...Nf6, allowing the Catalan, and if then 4.Nc3, he plays 4...dxc4, which usually turns into a Vienna.

Secondly, if anyone plans to use the Triangle move order to avoid the Catalan, after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 c6 4.g3, he has to play 4...dxc4. Because 4...f5 becomes the main line  of  Stonewall, and if he allows that, he might just as well play the Stonewall in the first place and forget the Triangle. Personally I think that most Catalan players would be happy to see 4...dxc4. I faced it as White once and won fairly easily from a position that my books claimed was equal.


What if White enters the Catalan from a 1.Nf3 move order and Black doesn't want to play against 1...f5 2.d3?
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #22 - 01/21/12 at 02:05:48
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Fllg wrote on 01/20/12 at 16:39:35:
It seems Scherbakov does indeed suggest a transposition to a Stonewall in some lines after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 c6 without 4.Nc3 as can be seen in the video introduction to the book: http://www.everymanchess.com/chess/books/The_Triangle_System%3A_Noteboom%2C_Mars...

4.g3 isn´t mentioned specifically but I expect coverage in the last chapter "White doesn´t protect c4".



Well yes, but I think that if you're going to use the Triangle as something more than a way of reaching a Meran, you'll have to react to 3.Nc3 c6 4.e3 with 4...Bd6 and next 5...f5.  4...Bd6 is an important finesse, btw, since 4...f5 runs into 5.g4. Black waits for White's next move, and 5.Bd3 f5 6.g4 is nothing much.

4...Nf6 is there, but if you play that, all your Noteboom preparation is just to support a certain move-order preferance.
  

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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #21 - 01/20/12 at 19:48:22
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #20 - 01/20/12 at 16:39:35
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It seems Scherbakov does indeed suggest a transposition to a Stonewall in some lines after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 c6 without 4.Nc3 as can be seen in the video introduction to the book: http://www.everymanchess.com/chess/books/The_Triangle_System%3A_Noteboom%2C_Mars...

4.g3 isn´t mentioned specifically but I expect coverage in the last chapter "White doesn´t protect c4".

  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #19 - 01/20/12 at 13:01:07
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Markovich wrote on 01/08/12 at 13:33:08:
Secondly, if anyone plans to use the Triangle move order to avoid the Catalan, after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 c6 4.g3, he has to play 4...dxc4. Because 4...f5 becomes the main line  of  Stonewall, and if he allows that, he might just as well play the Stonewall in the first place and forget the Triangle. Personally I think that most Catalan players would be happy to see 4...dxc4. I faced it as White once and won fairly easily from a position that my books claimed was equal.


Well, what's the harm in seeing if White will play an e3-setup before going Stonewall? Besides, the Stonewall variation is probably the Catalan bishop's worst enemy - while all those different variations of taking on c4 is exactly what Bg2 wants...
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #18 - 01/08/12 at 16:49:26
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I sort of agree with Markovich

I would probably be quite happy playing 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c6 as after 4.Nf3 you would get the Noteboom 4.e4 the Marshall Gambit or 4.cxd5 a pretty tame Exchange QGD when the Black bishop can come to f5.

However after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 I am not too happy playing 3...c6 as it allows like lots of Anti-Triangle lines such as:

a) 4.Qc2 when you get positions similar to a QGD.
b) 4.g3 when you have positions similar to a Closed Catalan.
c) 4.e3 (very popular in my league!) when you can follow up with the Queen's Knight to d2 and follow Avrukh's repertiore in GM1.
d) 4.Bg5 when again Black can play 4...Nf6 with positions similar to that of a QGD/Semi-Slav or 4...Be7 which for me looks pretty dull!

Personally I quite like playing 3...c6 against 3.Nc3 and 3...c5 against 3.Nf3.
But that means learning two defences, and one could argue why not play 3...c5 against both 3.Nc3 & 3.Nf3.
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #17 - 01/08/12 at 13:33:08
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It may be worth noting that Shulman, a major Triangle practitioner, only plays it after 3.Nc3. If 3.Nf3, he plays 3...Nf6, allowing the Catalan, and if then 4.Nc3, he plays 4...dxc4, which usually turns into a Vienna.

Secondly, if anyone plans to use the Triangle move order to avoid the Catalan, after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 c6 4.g3, he has to play 4...dxc4. Because 4...f5 becomes the main line  of  Stonewall, and if he allows that, he might just as well play the Stonewall in the first place and forget the Triangle. Personally I think that most Catalan players would be happy to see 4...dxc4. I faced it as White once and won fairly easily from a position that my books claimed was equal.

More peaceable Catalan players will just play 4.Qc2 instead of 4.g3, and get pretty much the game they want.
« Last Edit: 01/21/12 at 01:57:35 by Markovich »  

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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #16 - 01/07/12 at 20:38:32
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MNb wrote on 01/07/12 at 20:27:42:
gramsci wrote on 01/07/12 at 07:50:06:
to allow the Slav Exchange and the Botwinnik/Moscow/Anti-Moscow

How does Black allow the (Anti-)Moscow if he/she only plays ...Nf6 after White's e2-e3? As far as I understand that's the whole point of the Noteboom.

that's my idea: to avoid the (Anti-)Moscow and the Slav Exchange playing the Noteboom, the Meran Semi-Slav after e3, the Catalan, the Marshall Gambit and a good vesion or the QGD Exchange.
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #15 - 01/07/12 at 20:27:42
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gramsci wrote on 01/07/12 at 07:50:06:
to allow the Slav Exchange and the Botwinnik/Moscow/Anti-Moscow

How does Black allow the (Anti-)Moscow if he/she only plays ...Nf6 after White's e2-e3? As far as I understand that's the whole point of the Noteboom.
  

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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #14 - 01/07/12 at 18:01:25
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Oh yes very fine, but its still not trivial to do much if whites organise and after a draw. Which is a very silly thing to be scared of really Smiley (but is the only reason to be truly perturbed by the Slav exchange.).
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #13 - 01/07/12 at 16:38:41
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gramsci wrote on 01/06/12 at 15:05:04:
So what's the meaning of the title "(...) and other Semi-Slav Triangle lines"?


Anti-Noteboom lines like 4 Qc2, 4 Qb3, 4 Nbd2 are also Semi-Slavs if Black plays ...Nf6. Not the most testing lines maybe, but Black still has to know what to do.
  

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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #12 - 01/07/12 at 16:06:37
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saubhikr wrote on 01/07/12 at 15:33:20:
fling wrote on 01/07/12 at 11:14:17:
Yeah, I'd be more afraid of the QGD exchange rather than the Slav exchange. The QGD seems to give White more chances for an edge, and also to play for a draw if suitable. But I agree, varying move orders is a good idea. Also, it is of course good and fun to play different pawn structures.


That is true in proper QGD exchange where black plays Nf6 and then white (with Nc3) exchanges on d5 and then plays Bg5. Here black has not played Nf6 and had an useful c6 move supporting d5 which allows him to play Bf5 faster. Resulting positions are unbalanced enought to give enough winning chances. More than that of exchange slav.


True, my mistake. The plan ...c6 and ...Bf5 is fine for Black.
  
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Re: Scherbakov Book on Noteboom,Marshall Gambit
Reply #11 - 01/07/12 at 15:33:20
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fling wrote on 01/07/12 at 11:14:17:
Yeah, I'd be more afraid of the QGD exchange rather than the Slav exchange. The QGD seems to give White more chances for an edge, and also to play for a draw if suitable. But I agree, varying move orders is a good idea. Also, it is of course good and fun to play different pawn structures.


That is true in proper QGD exchange where black plays Nf6 and then white (with Nc3) exchanges on d5 and then plays Bg5. Here black has not played Nf6 and had an useful c6 move supporting d5 which allows him to play Bf5 faster. Resulting positions are unbalanced enought to give enough winning chances. More than that of exchange slav.
  
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