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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Opinions of Arkhangelsk DVD by Mikhalchishin (Read 11729 times)
mn
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Re: Opinions of Arkhangelsk DVD by Mikhalchishin
Reply #28 - 08/24/18 at 23:20:33
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I also don't particularly like Black's position in the line where White goes Re1/c3/d4/Be3, then at some point plays d4-d5, takes on b6 and plays a4.
  
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Re: Opinions of Arkhangelsk DVD by Mikhalchishin
Reply #27 - 08/24/18 at 00:16:47
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I would play the 6...Bb7 Archangel if it weren’t for 7.d3. That kills all the fun out of the opening. If this line were good for Black, then the line 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5.d3 b5 6.Bb3 Bb7 would be played. And maybe even 5.0-0 Be7 6.d3 b5 7.Bb3 Bb7. As virtually no one plays like this, it seems strange to play the Archangel, when most of the time what you’re playing is really a 5.d3 Ruy Lopez with the Bishop committed to b7. Until someone is able to prove that the Bishop is more useful on b7 than leaving it on c8 for the time being, I don’t see a reason to play the Archangel.
  
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Re: Opinions of Arkhangelsk DVD by Mikhalchishin
Reply #26 - 07/03/18 at 19:16:15
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Stigma wrote on 07/02/18 at 20:04:28:
Pantu wrote on 07/02/18 at 05:54:42:
Instead 7.Bc2 d5!? was covered in some recent YB article (YB112 by Van der Tak?). When white just goes 8.0-0 and 9.d4 then Svidler covers these positions well via the Yurtaev move order.

But 7.Bc2 d5 etc. can't arise from the Yurtaev move order. Do you mean 5...Bc5 6.c3 b5 7.Bb3 d6 8.0-0 followed by 9.d4? I guess you're talking about two different lines in this paragraph, but it's not clear what happens before "White just goes 8.0-0 and 9.d4".


Yes, I meant 5.0-0 Bc5 6.c3 b5 7.Bb3 d6 8.d4 Bb6 of course, transposing to the Yurtaev, especially since white already castled at move 5...
  
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Stigma
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Re: Opinions of Arkhangelsk DVD by Mikhalchishin
Reply #25 - 07/02/18 at 20:04:28
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Pantu wrote on 07/02/18 at 05:54:42:
Instead 7.Bc2 d5!? was covered in some recent YB article (YB112 by Van der Tak?). When white just goes 8.0-0 and 9.d4 then Svidler covers these positions well via the Yurtaev move order.

But 7.Bc2 d5 etc. can't arise from the Yurtaev move order. Do you mean 5...Bc5 6.c3 b5 7.Bb3 d6 8.0-0 followed by 9.d4? I guess you're talking about two different lines in this paragraph, but it's not clear what happens before "White just goes 8.0-0 and 9.d4".
  

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Re: Opinions of Arkhangelsk DVD by Mikhalchishin
Reply #24 - 07/02/18 at 17:07:39
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Pantu wrote on 07/02/18 at 05:54:42:
The Moller looked most promising as with 5...Bc5 6.c3 b5 7.Bb3 d6 8.a4 black can avoid transposing with 8...Rb8 with 8...Bg4 which looked interesting - Adhiban had an article in YB123 that I thought might cover this but some real life stuff put chess on the backburner for a while. If someone has that YB and can let me know if it covers exactly that it would be nice Smiley


I don't see games with that line in YB123.

(games download page)
https://secure.newinchess.com/Yearbook/Default.aspx?PageID=223
  
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Re: Opinions of Arkhangelsk DVD by Mikhalchishin
Reply #23 - 07/02/18 at 09:47:02
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And the thing about ol' NN he's still out there swinging. My degree is in history, I've been teaching it for 30 years, words fail me, but not very often!
  
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Re: Opinions of Arkhangelsk DVD by Mikhalchishin
Reply #22 - 07/02/18 at 06:30:13
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Pantu wrote on 07/02/18 at 05:54:42:
Instead 7.Bc2 d5!? was covered in some recent YB article (YB112 by Van der Tak?). When white just goes 8.0-0 and 9.d4 then Svidler covers these positions well via the Yurtaev move order.


More recently in CBM (181):
"By using this move order (first 5...Bc5 instead of 5...b5) Black avoids a rapid a2-a4. But in return the white bishop can go to c2, which in its turn allows 7...d5. Robert Ris examines this position in depth and sees everything as being alright for Black; however he needs to know a lot of theory."
  
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Re: Opinions of Arkhangelsk DVD by Mikhalchishin
Reply #21 - 07/02/18 at 05:54:42
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I was interested in these lines a while ago so did some digging. Following is what I remember, no access to my files at the moment:

The feeling I got was that in the Yurtaev 5...b5 6.Bb3 Bc5 7.a4 was the real challenge and if you go 7...Rb8 Svidler is a good summary and was ahead of theory at the time. The Karjakin-Carlsen WCh match line is fairly critical and Svidler was just showing how to hold for black (which Carlsen didn't know...) but IIRC my engine was suggesting a improvement at the critical point there. Or maybe that was the same as Svidler's Smiley but in any case with these lines it's all about remembering the long lines of a analysis, which Carlsen failed to do in the WCh match so I decided I wasn't too happy with that.

In blitz I've experimented a bit with 7.a4 Bb7 when after 8.d3 there are some pluses and minuses over 6...Bb7 7.d3 where I wasn't too comfortable but didn't look too carefully.

The Moller looked most promising as with 5...Bc5 6.c3 b5 7.Bb3 d6 8.a4 black can avoid transposing with 8...Rb8 with 8...Bg4 which looked interesting - Adhiban had an article in YB123 that I thought might cover this but some real life stuff put chess on the backburner for a while. If someone has that YB and can let me know if it covers exactly that it would be nice Smiley

Instead 7.Bc2 d5!? was covered in some recent YB article (YB112 by Van der Tak?). When white just goes 8.0-0 and 9.d4 then Svidler covers these positions well via the Yurtaev move order.
  
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Re: Opinions of Arkhangelsk DVD by Mikhalchishin
Reply #20 - 07/02/18 at 05:36:14
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Respect to the chess historians. My first degree was history, years back, but my hobby is separate!
Here, but I was rather looking for more recent theory....

I have the Emms/Panczyk book- both always reliable authors, and a good text indeed, particularly considering the vintage.

PawnPusher - bad day for NN indeed. He had many of those against the greats, poor chap. Kept coming back for more though, and good on him for that. Thanks for making me laugh on that one Smiley
  
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Re: Opinions of Arkhangelsk DVD by Mikhalchishin
Reply #19 - 07/02/18 at 01:03:02
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Pawnpusher wrote on 07/02/18 at 00:31:17:
The earliest game I was able to find was NN vs Vince Grimm, Istanbul 1864 0-1. I found the score on Chessgames. 13 moves, NN had a bad day.


Hmm, I recognized part of that from a note in Alekhine's Deux cent parties d'échecs ("Intéressant est [5...Lf8-c5 6. c2-c3 Fc5-a7] 7. Tf1-e1 Cf6-g4! 8. d2-d4 e5xd4 9. c3xd4 Cc6xd4! 10. Cf3xd4 Dd8-h4! avec une attaque gagnante.") ...but is it really winning?  (I notice that a much later book gave only 7...d6.)
« Last Edit: 07/02/18 at 02:13:58 by kylemeister »  
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Re: Opinions of Arkhangelsk DVD by Mikhalchishin
Reply #18 - 07/02/18 at 00:31:17
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The earliest game I was able to find was NN vs Vince Grimm, Istanbul 1864 0-1. I found the score on Chessgames. 13 moves, NN had a bad day.
  
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Re: Opinions of Arkhangelsk DVD by Mikhalchishin
Reply #17 - 07/01/18 at 20:32:54
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Stigma wrote on 07/01/18 at 19:04:11:
Will be interesting to compare his conclusions to everything that's happened since 1903!


Well, I know that his 6. c3 Ba7 7. d4 Nxe4 has been considered good for White in a number of books going back at least to Fine in the '40s.
  
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Re: Opinions of Arkhangelsk DVD by Mikhalchishin
Reply #16 - 07/01/18 at 19:04:11
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kylemeister wrote on 07/01/18 at 17:30:15:
Well, here you have Møller writing about it in Danish in a Swedish magazine ...
http://www.schack.se/tfsarkiv/history/1903/tfs_1903_04.pdf

Thanks for digging this up. Just a quick glance reveals Møller indeed wanted to play without ...b5. The exception is his brief note recommending 6.Nc3 b5 7.Bb3 d6 - which today we would call a transposition to the Yurtaev variation with White committed to Nc3.

Will be interesting to compare his conclusions to everything that's happened since 1903!
  

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Re: Opinions of Arkhangelsk DVD by Mikhalchishin
Reply #15 - 07/01/18 at 17:30:15
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Bibs wrote on 07/01/18 at 11:07:36:
Any language is okay.


Well, here you have Møller writing about it in Danish in a Swedish magazine ...
http://www.schack.se/tfsarkiv/history/1903/tfs_1903_04.pdf

Now a bit in English about an ostensible case of the Møller transposing to the Yurtaev.  (White eschews 8. de as in e.g. Karjakin-Carlsen, alluded to by Stigma.)
https://www.chesspublishing.com/content/1/may18.htm#spa
  
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Re: Opinions of Arkhangelsk DVD by Mikhalchishin
Reply #14 - 07/01/18 at 17:15:26
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I think Gawain Jones plays one of these lines but not sure which one. His games might be worth a look.
  

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Re: Opinions of Arkhangelsk DVD by Mikhalchishin
Reply #13 - 07/01/18 at 16:32:29
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Regarding sources about the Møller there is a chapter about it in "Dangerous Weapons 1.e4 e5" written by Glen Flear. The chapter is called "Twenty years of obscurity" so don´t be fooled if you look at the table of content.
  
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Re: Opinions of Arkhangelsk DVD by Mikhalchishin
Reply #12 - 07/01/18 at 15:00:45
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A tangent about the name Arkhangelsk/Archangel: I've always thought the name often used in English, the "Archangel", was just a funny misreading of the correct "Arkhangelsk", after the northern Russian city where some early proponents and analysts of the variation lived.

But it turns out that the city name Arkhangelsk really does mean "Archangel". I should have thought of that... The city is named after the archangel Michael, who has a high standing in Orthodox Christianity (source: Wikipedia).

So I guess both spellings are acceptable, but I still prefer the one with "kh" since that makes it obvious the reference is to the Russian city, not to archangels in general!
  

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Re: Opinions of Arkhangelsk DVD by Mikhalchishin
Reply #11 - 07/01/18 at 14:47:15
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Bibs wrote on 07/01/18 at 11:07:36:
Thanks everyone. Thanks Stigma particularly for the clarity there. "Ah, now I see!" Epiphany.

You're welcome.

I can't be of much help when it comes to Møller sources. This entire complex has always interested me, but I've never gotten around to actually taking up 1.e4 e5 for Black. But playing through any games by strong specialists like Alexander Alekhine (!), Tamir Nabaty, Alexander Onischuk, Xiangzhi Bu, Mateusz Bartel etc. must be a good start. In the database there is a pattern of Chinese top GMs going 5...Bc5 6.c3 b5, while as mentioned many Polish players in particular go 5...Bc5 6.c3 0-0.

Going by the nomenclature established in this thread, Svidler's video series on Chess24, "Svidler's Archangels", is really about the Yurtaev move order (5...b5 6.Bb3 Bc5). I have only skimmed this, but I think I recall Svidler concluding that Black got interesting, sharp play, but at the time of filming he thought White could get an edge in some critical lines.

Seeley wrote on 07/01/18 at 10:22:05:
I numbered the moves incorrectly here. I should have written "White answers 6...Bb7 with 7.d3. Hence the 6...Bc5 refinement". In other words, my intention was to agree with what Bibs indicated, namely that the Yurtaev is a refinement of the Arkhangelsk. However, as a consequence of my misnumbering, it reads as though I'm saying it's a refinement of the Møller. This was my mistake and I apologise for misleading you.

No problem. I actually caught the first misnumbering but then somehow didn't connect the dots and realize it applied to 5...Bc5/6..Bc5 as well.
  

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Re: Opinions of Arkhangelsk DVD by Mikhalchishin
Reply #10 - 07/01/18 at 11:29:32
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Bibs wrote on 07/01/18 at 11:07:36:
Møller interests me. Resources? Yearbook articles?

The book I alluded to earlier – 'Archangel and New Archangel' by Panczyk and Emms – has a twelve-page chapter on the Møller, which is written by Emms. The book was published in 2000, so it's a bit long in the tooth now. A quick search indicates that it's still available new for about a tenner, though, if you're interested.
  
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Re: Opinions of Arkhangelsk DVD by Mikhalchishin
Reply #9 - 07/01/18 at 11:07:36
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You were closer than me Seeley - no probs eh!

I've been reading around. Seems Yurtaev is often called 'New Archangel' but if Yurtaev invented the thing, I'd say to call it that, yeah. Respect and credit where it is due.

Møller interests me. Resources? Yearbook articles?
I looked around and just saw an old Davies video. Not guaranteed to be the most thorough. Any language is okay.

Is there much gained on the Cordel (3..Bc5) that the bishop is on a4 not b5? Certainly an interesting idea. That a4 weaker than b3, and that pawn b5 is a weakness (see a4, Na3xb5 in main line Yurtaev) That said, the c8 bishop not seeing daylight yet.

Thanks everyone. Thanks Stigma particularly for the clarity there. "Ah, now I see!" Epiphany.

  
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Re: Opinions of Arkhangelsk DVD by Mikhalchishin
Reply #8 - 07/01/18 at 10:22:05
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Stigma wrote on 06/30/18 at 23:50:13:
Seeley wrote on 06/30/18 at 09:34:47:
'as any fule kno', it seems, White answers 5...Bb7 with 6.d3. Hence the 5...Bc5 refinement, as you correctly indicate.

I see what you mean, and when people play the Møller today it's usually because they are trying to avoid some concrete problems with the Arkhangelsk and Yurtaev move orders; respectively after 5...b5 6.Bb3 Bb7 7.d3 and 5...b5 6.Bb3 Bc5 7.a4. But since Jørgen Møller was a much earlier player than the originators of the Arkhangelsk, calling his variation a "refinement" sounds a bit strange.

I numbered the moves incorrectly here. I should have written "White answers 6...Bb7 with 7.d3. Hence the 6...Bc5 refinement". In other words, my intention was to agree with what Bibs indicated, namely that the Yurtaev is a refinement of the Arkhangelsk. However, as a consequence of my misnumbering, it reads as though I'm saying it's a refinement of the Møller. This was my mistake and I apologise for misleading you.
  
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Re: Opinions of Arkhangelsk DVD by Mikhalchishin
Reply #7 - 06/30/18 at 23:50:13
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Seeley wrote on 06/30/18 at 09:34:47:
According to the (now quite old) Panczyk and Emms book on the Archangel, the Møller is the line where Black plays 5...Bc5 – in other words, without playing ...b5 first.

This is my understanding as well. So we have two clearly named move orders and one move order with a confusing variety of names in use:

5...Bc5 (without ...b5 first or even ever): Clearly the Møller variation

5...b5 6.Bb3 Bb7: Clearly the Arkhangelsk variation

5...b5 6.Bb3 Bc5: The Yurtaev [correct according to Tkachiev and Kosten], Tkachiev, New Arkhangelsk... any others?!

What then do we do with positions that could have been reached from two or all three of these? I guess people will either trust the ECO classification's placement (which may not be very logical or current) or classify them as the currently most popular variation. It seems this has lead to a lot of naming confusion.

Seeley wrote on 06/30/18 at 09:34:47:
'as any fule kno', it seems, White answers 5...Bb7 with 6.d3. Hence the 5...Bc5 refinement, as you correctly indicate.

I see what you mean, and when people play the Møller today it's usually because they are trying to avoid some concrete problems with the Arkhangelsk and Yurtaev move orders; respectively after 5...b5 6.Bb3 Bb7 7.d3 and 5...b5 6.Bb3 Bc5 7.a4. But since Jørgen Møller was a much earlier player than the originators of the Arkhangelsk, calling his variation a "refinement" sounds a bit strange.

It's interesting to try playing the Møller (5...Bc5) while avoiding the move ...b5 entirely. Black can just get on with his development and argue that the bishop is potentially out of play on a4, so why spend a tempo on chasing it back into play? I associate this way of playing it with Israeli GM Nabaty, and it seems to have been popular in Poland and tried by several of the top players there. Carlsen even tried it recently (5...Bc5 6.c3 0-0).

Now I'm just waiting for some history buff to point out that this was indeed Møller's original idea (if in fact it was), complete with the correct reference.  Smiley
  

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Re: Opinions of Arkhangelsk DVD by Mikhalchishin
Reply #6 - 06/30/18 at 17:47:32
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Bibs wrote on 06/30/18 at 08:16:19:
Thank you flllg for replying.

I must admit, I had thought the Bb7 stuff, likely with Bc5 up next, Bc5 was the Moller (with an umlaut that I cannot do on my keyboard, cos I am a bit thick).
That not right?


I thought the Moller was 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.O-O Bc5, the difference being that ...b5 is not yet played.

Edit:  Oh, I see someone already said that.  It's just as well my club closes over the summer, I'm useless at this time of year.
  
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Re: Opinions of Arkhangelsk DVD by Mikhalchishin
Reply #5 - 06/30/18 at 09:34:47
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Bibs wrote on 06/30/18 at 08:16:19:
Thank you flllg for replying.

I must admit, I had thought the Bb7 stuff, likely with Bc5 up next, Bc5 was the Moller (with an umlaut that I cannot do on my keyboard, cos I am a bit thick).
That not right? I may well be wrong. My understanding was that the increased punting of the Archangel evolved, in a sense, from the Moller noting that the Bb7 may bite on the proverbial d3-e4 granite, hence the improved approach of Bc5 first. Which may or may not be a memory (false memory?) from Fire on Board. Bc5 first, as if white plays d3 then can have the c8 bishop elsewhere.

Or is that just nonsense?!

Aside from nomenclature, anyone also seen these products, and can compare...?


According to the (now quite old) Panczyk and Emms book on the Archangel, the Møller is the line where Black plays 5...Bc5 – in other words, without playing ...b5 first.

I have the Mikhalchishin DVD but not the Shirov one, so I can't compare the two. However, as per what Fllg says above, Mikhalchishin covers the line 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 b5 5.Bb3 Bb7. I haven't watched the DVD for some time, but my recall is that there are a lot of sharp and exciting lines that are fun to look at and would be fun to play if they ever appeared on the board. The problem I encountered is that, in practice, you're wasting your time learning these, because, 'as any fule kno', it seems, White answers 5...Bb7 with 6.d3. Hence the 5...Bc5 refinement, as you correctly indicate.
  
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Re: Opinions of Arkhangelsk DVD by Mikhalchishin
Reply #4 - 06/30/18 at 08:54:56
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Fllg wrote on 06/30/18 at 07:37:17:
Tkachiev: 1.e4 e5 2.Sf3 Sc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 b5 5.Bb3 Bc5


Tkachiev told me that this variation was invented by Yurtaev, not him, and he asked me to rename the variation when Black plays ...Bc5 before ...Bb7, which is what we have done here at ChessPublishing. Incidentally, he also told me that the idea of playing ...Rb8 after 7 a4 was Khalifman's.
  
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Re: Opinions of Arkhangelsk DVD by Mikhalchishin
Reply #3 - 06/30/18 at 08:16:19
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Thank you flllg for replying.

I must admit, I had thought the Bb7 stuff, likely with Bc5 up next, Bc5 was the Moller (with an umlaut that I cannot do on my keyboard, cos I am a bit thick).
That not right? I may well be wrong. My understanding was that the increased punting of the Archangel evolved, in a sense, from the Moller noting that the Bb7 may bite on the proverbial d3-e4 granite, hence the improved approach of Bc5 first. Which may or may not be a memory (false memory?) from Fire on Board. Bc5 first, as if white plays d3 then can have the c8 bishop elsewhere.

Or is that just nonsense?!

Aside from nomenclature, anyone also seen these products, and can compare...?

  
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Re: Opinions of Arkhangelsk DVD by Mikhalchishin
Reply #2 - 06/30/18 at 07:37:17
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I don´t know the DVDs but the Arkhangelsk and the Tkachiev are two seperate variations:

Arkhangelsk: 1.e4 e5 2.Sf3 Sc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 b5 5.Bb3 Bb7

Tkachiev: 1.e4 e5 2.Sf3 Sc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 b5 5.Bb3 Bc5

In the latter Black may or may not play ...Bb7. Afaik he usually does not.
  
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Re: Opinions of Arkhangelsk DVD by Mikhalchishin
Reply #1 - 06/30/18 at 07:07:06
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Bump!

And how does is compare with the Shirov DVD on the ‘Tkachiev’?
Which, as far as I can make out and as far as my limited exiting knowledge takes me, appears to be the same variation, but with a different name?

Clarity? How thorough? All there, or any odd omissions? Logically organised?

Also, how does it compare with ‘Svidler’s Archangels’ on chess24?

Thanking you all in advance. Much obliged.
  
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Location: USA
Joined: 11/11/09
Gender: Male
Opinions of Arkhangelsk DVD by Mikhalchishin
01/09/12 at 17:43:35
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I'm thinking about picking this DVD up. What do people think of this DVD? Is it worth picking up or should I just stick to database?
  
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