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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Berlin Defence - Igor Lysyj, Roman Ovetchkin (Read 77200 times)
tp2205
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Re: The Berlin Defence - Igor Lysyj, Roman Ovetchkin
Reply #57 - 06/01/18 at 16:22:02
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IsaVulpes wrote on 06/01/18 at 13:41:09:
Does anyone other than the chessmind-blog have an opinion on this book by now?  Wink Somehow all discussion stopped after it was actually released.

I really like the two Chess Stars books I own (Attacking the Flexible Sicilian / Attacking the English+Reti), and would like to add the Berlin to my repertoire for days where I don't feel like discussing the Marshall.

Is this book still a good idea despite being obviously dated by now? Don't really feel like I need any cutting edge theory at ~1900 level, but perhaps some of the lines are outright 'refuted' by now?
I was planning to learn the Endgame with Cox and use this for a start into the Anti-Berlins; can always update concrete lines later manually by checking out what people play nowadays (I presume that particularly the 4.d3 Bc5 5.Bc6: line has had some major developments in the last 6 years).

How does it stack up compared to the much more recent "Berlin Defence Unraveled"? 
The excerpt of that one didn't read as nicely; felt more confuddled and denser than the neat Introduction-StepbyStep-CompleteGames format of the CStars books, which I've grown to love. 
Should I get it anyway because 2012 is just 'too old' (even for a low rated OTB player rather than Correspondence GM)? 

Or are there any other general problems with the Lysyj/Ovetchkin tome? Feedback would be lovely, thanks!


I found no problems with either Cox or Lysyj/Ovetchkin (whatever endorsement that entails) when I was looking for ways to play against the Berlin with White (the conclusion I reached was to play 3.Bc4 or 2.Bc4). For me: Cox > Lysyj > Bernal (I only read Bernal's excerpt). 

I would just read the book whose style you like best. In the Berlin understanding of typical positions, common maneuvers/patterns/formations is what matters. Concrete variations and innovations matter less than in pretty much any other opening. 
  
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Re: The Berlin Defence - Igor Lysyj, Roman Ovetchkin
Reply #56 - 06/01/18 at 13:41:09
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Does anyone other than the chessmind-blog have an opinion on this book by now?  Wink Somehow all discussion stopped after it was actually released.

I really like the two Chess Stars books I own (Attacking the Flexible Sicilian / Attacking the English+Reti), and would like to add the Berlin to my repertoire for days where I don't feel like discussing the Marshall.

Is this book still a good idea despite being obviously dated by now? Don't really feel like I need any cutting edge theory at ~1900 level, but perhaps some of the lines are outright 'refuted' by now?
I was planning to learn the Endgame with Cox and use this for a start into the Anti-Berlins; can always update concrete lines later manually by checking out what people play nowadays (I presume that particularly the 4.d3 Bc5 5.Bc6: line has had some major developments in the last 6 years).

How does it stack up compared to the much more recent "Berlin Defence Unraveled"? 
The excerpt of that one didn't read as nicely; felt more confuddled and denser than the neat Introduction-StepbyStep-CompleteGames format of the CStars books, which I've grown to love. 
Should I get it anyway because 2012 is just 'too old' (even for a low rated OTB player rather than Correspondence GM)? 

Or are there any other general problems with the Lysyj/Ovetchkin tome? Feedback would be lovely, thanks!
  
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Re: The Berlin Defence - Igor Lysyj, Roman Ovetchkin
Reply #55 - 07/25/12 at 17:17:34
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PANFR wrote on 07/24/12 at 13:38:27:
They recommend 7...a6 (instead of Vlady's 7...Ne7).

Interesting. Kramnik seems to disagree with the authors!
In the past, Kramnik tried both 7...a6 and 7...Bb6, but here he goes for 7...Ne7 which is a very rare move. Or perhaps Kramnik is experimenting once more in this tournament!

PANFR wrote on 07/24/12 at 13:38:27:
They also say that under that particular move order (5.0-0 instead of 5.c3) 5...Nd4 is a good move, but they do not offer any analysis.

Well, Kramnik has tried both 5...Nd4 and 5...d6.
Since the Caruana game is only a few days old, Kramnik's current evaluation must be in favour of 5...d6
  
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Re: The Berlin Defence - Igor Lysyj, Roman Ovetchkin
Reply #54 - 07/24/12 at 13:38:27
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They recommend 7...a6 (instead of Vlady's 7...Ne7). 
They also say that under that particular move order (5.0-0 instead of 5.c3) 5...Nd4 is a good move, but they do not offer any analysis.
  
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Re: The Berlin Defence - Igor Lysyj, Roman Ovetchkin
Reply #53 - 07/23/12 at 19:50:57
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Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 03/24/12 at 18:57:59:
Mortal Games wrote on 03/24/12 at 18:04:42:
Yes, but there are other options too in a creative strategic opening like the Berlin, the only problem is that today it seems that the way for White is to avoid the main line.   


The 4. d3 Bc5 line does not look as critical as the endgame line, the GMs seem to be playing it as a means of avoiding the endgame line at all costs. Surely Black just plays ...Bc5/d6/0-0 and develops simply like in the Italian Game, we will see what Lysyj will recommend against this line.


  
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Re: The Berlin Defence - Igor Lysyj, Roman Ovetchkin
Reply #52 - 07/03/12 at 21:45:25
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http://www.thechessmind.net/blog/2012/7/2/a-review-of-lysyj-and-ovetchkins-the-b...
  
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Re: The Berlin Defence - Igor Lysyj, Roman Ovetchkin
Reply #51 - 05/13/12 at 14:13:06
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cma6 wrote on 05/13/12 at 04:52:54:

Is the Kritz DVD also based on 9 Nc3, Ke8?


Yes, as the posts you cite imply, Kritz looks at lines that begin with 9 Nc3 Ke8.

If you want to know what he recommends thereafter, going to a website like chessgames.com and looking at Kritz's own games will give you a pretty good idea.
  
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Re: The Berlin Defence - Igor Lysyj, Roman Ovetchkin
Reply #50 - 05/13/12 at 04:55:54
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[quote author=0A34202A35362F061F3837590 link=1326363431/47#47 date=1332990050]The authors chose 9.Nc3 Ke8 in the Berlin endgame. I am also curious to see some good analysis of how White should play when Black chooses 9...h6 10.h3 Bd7 with the idea of moving the K to the Q-side.

Here is perhaps the seminal game with that plan:

[pgn][Event "World Championship"]
[Site "London"]
[Date "2000.10.08"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Kasparov, Garry"]
[Black "Kramnik, Vladimir"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "C67"]
[WhiteElo "2849"]
[BlackElo "2770"]
[PlyCount "50"]
[EventDate "2000.10.08"]
[EventType "match"]
[EventRounds "15"]
[EventCountry "ENG"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "2001.01.25"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 Nf6 4. O-O Nxe4 5. d4 Nd6 6. Bxc6 dxc6 7. dxe5 Nf5
8. Qxd8+ Kxd8 9. Nc3 Bd7 10. b3 h6 11. Bb2 Kc8 12. h3 b6 13. Rad1 Ne7 14. Ne2
Ng6 15. Ne1 h5 16. Nd3 c5 17. c4 a5 18. a4 h4 19. Nc3 Be6 20. Nd5 Kb7 21. Ne3
Rh5 22. Bc3 Re8 23. Rd2 Kc8 24. f4 Ne7 25. Nf2 Nf5 1/2-1/2

I have not seen Kramnik's original approach with 9...Bd7 refuted or am I missing something? It seems that 9...Ke8 has simply become fashionable, but not better then 9...Bd7.
  
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Re: The Berlin Defence - Igor Lysyj, Roman Ovetchkin
Reply #49 - 05/13/12 at 04:52:54
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PANFR wrote on 03/15/12 at 21:45:54:
Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 03/15/12 at 21:41:36:

Is the 9...Ke8 line where Black usually ends up with the two bishops against dark-squared bishop and knight, the line that Kritz plays, or am I confusing lines?


Yes, this is the line Kritz recommends in his DVD (10.h3 Be7 11.g4 Nh4 12.Nxh4 Bxh4). 
But in this book I see that they are about 10...h5, which amounts to a different type of positions.

Is the Kritz DVD also based on 9 Nc3, Ke8?
  
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Re: The Berlin Defence - Igor Lysyj, Roman Ovetchkin
Reply #48 - 05/10/12 at 23:27:24
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Just looked at where Bologan's recommendation in his dvd meets this book, it's in the 11.Bg5 line. They both follow the Amonatov - Karjakin game 2010 Moscow upto 11.Bg5 Be6 12. a3 Be7 13.Rad1 h4 however here Bologan deviates with 14.Rd2 instead of Amonatov's 14.Rfe1 which Houdini assesses both at 0.05 at depth 25. After 14.Rd2 Bologan's line continues with 14...Rd8 15.Rfd1 Bxg5 16.Nxg5 Rxd2 17.Rxd2 Ke7 18.Ne2 Bd5 19.Nf4 and Bologan assesses this as slightly favourable for White due to his 2 knights on f4 and g5. However after 19...Rd8 houdini gives it as 0.00 with the intention (in most cases) 20...Rd7 21...Be6 with rooks coming off and going into equal endgame.
  
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Re: The Berlin Defence - Igor Lysyj, Roman Ovetchkin
Reply #47 - 03/29/12 at 03:00:50
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The authors chose 9.Nc3 Ke8 in the Berlin endgame. I am also curious to see some good analysis of how White should play when Black chooses 9...h6 10.h3 Bd7 with the idea of moving the K to the Q-side.

Here is perhaps the seminal game with that plan:

  
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Re: The Berlin Defence - Igor Lysyj, Roman Ovetchkin
Reply #46 - 03/27/12 at 06:03:59
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The line 11. Bf4 Be7 with the rook lift to h6 is given.
  
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Re: The Berlin Defence - Igor Lysyj, Roman Ovetchkin
Reply #45 - 03/26/12 at 15:11:43
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Yes I agree with you, and I am curious to what variation Tkachiev was thinking about when he said in a recent  interview with Kramnik that White are starting to unravel it´s way against the Berlin and Petroff, because I only see White players playing 4.d3 or the other variation with Re1 followed by Bd3 or Bf1 etc. 
Yesterday another game:
Jones,Gawain C B (2635) - Fressinet,Laurent (2693) [C67]
EICC 2012 Plovdiv/Bulgaria, 25.03.2012

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nf6 4.0-0 Nxe4 5.d4 Nd6 6.dxe5 Nxb5 7.a4 Nbd4 8.Nxd4 d5 9.exd6 Nxd4 10.Qxd4 Qxd6 11.Qe3+ Be6 12.Nc3 a6 13.Rd1 Qc6 14.Rd3 Be7 15.Nb5 0-0 16.Nd4 Qd5 17.Nxe6 Qxe6 18.Qxe6 fxe6 19.Be3 Bf6 20.c3 Rfd8 21.Rad1 Rxd3 22.Rxd3 Rd8 23.Rxd8+ Bxd8 24.g4 e5 25.Kg2 Kf7 26.Kf3 Ke6 27.Ke4 c6 28.f3 b5 29.b3 g6 30.c4 Be7 31.Bd2 Bd8 32.Bc3 Bc7 33.Bd2 Bd8 34.Bc3 Bc7 35.Bd2 1/2-1/2

At least, the variation with Re1 followed by Bd3 have more preassure against the castle position and some tricks but I do not believe in any of these variations for White. 
The books are out in Germany and Netherland.  Smiley
  
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Re: The Berlin Defence - Igor Lysyj, Roman Ovetchkin
Reply #44 - 03/24/12 at 18:57:59
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Mortal Games wrote on 03/24/12 at 18:04:42:
Yes, but there are other options too in a creative strategic opening like the Berlin, the only problem is that today it seems that the way for White is to avoid the main line.   


The 4. d3 Bc5 line does not look as critical as the endgame line, the GMs seem to be playing it as a means of avoiding the endgame line at all costs. Surely Black just plays ...Bc5/d6/0-0 and develops simply like in the Italian Game, we will see what Lysyj will recommend against this line.
  
Creo lo que creo no importa lo que creen los demás.
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Re: The Berlin Defence - Igor Lysyj, Roman Ovetchkin
Reply #43 - 03/24/12 at 18:04:42
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Yes, but there are other options too in a creative strategic opening like the Berlin, the only problem is that today it seems that the way for White is to avoid the main line.
  
It has been said that chess players are good at two things, Chess and Excuses.  It has also been said that Chess is where all excuses fail! In order to win you must dare to fail!
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