Latest Updates:
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Another attempt to understand the spoiled KID (Read 6776 times)
Matemax
God Member
*****
Offline


Chesspub gives you strength!

Posts: 1302
Joined: 11/04/07
Re: Another attempt to understand the spoiled KID
Reply #11 - 01/22/12 at 17:10:22
Post Tools
gewgaw wrote on 01/20/12 at 15:24:03:
Matemax wrote on 01/19/12 at 21:39:07:
White is clearly better after 14.a3 - Black's knight has to be on the kingside (on g6) for a successful attack on the white king. The knight on a6 is just out of play and Black has not enough resources for counterplay

You had to play 10...Nc5 attacking the e4-pawn - White goes 11.Nd2 and now Black secures the knight on c5 (at least for the time being) with ...a5. You dont have to be afraid of 11.Bf6?! when White just gives up the bishop pair. After b4 the knight on d7 still hinders c5 (you could then also think about ...b6) and you continue your kingside plan with ...Bf6-g7, ...f7-f5, ...Nd7-f6 with very good play!


Thanks @matemax for your thoughts.

1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. d4 O-O 6. Be2 Na6 7. O-O e5 8. Bg5 Qe8 9. d5 Nc5 10. Bxf6 Bxf6 11. b4 Nd7 12. Ne1 (12. Nd2 Bg7 13. Rc1 f5
14. f3 Bh6) (12. c5) 12... Bg7 13. Nd3 f5 14. c5 Nf6 15. f3 Bh6

I like the positions, that can arise after 10.Bxf6 as given above, so your 9. ... Nc5, instead of 9. ...h6, seems far better.

When I play through the game again, I´m still not sure, where White blundered in the next moves. Was 16.Nb3 just odd or just bad?


Well this needs analysis. It is true that the immediate 16.c5!?, 17.cd6 (if 16...dc5 then 17.b5 Nb8 18.Nc4 with the idea of d5-d6 looks strong) and 18.Nc4 was much more logical - you cant waste tempos in the KI. Later on I would say that 22.fg4 is in principal a bad a idea for White - instead he should play Kh1 to make room for the bishop on g1.

You may have a look at the recent game Anand-Nakamura, London 2011. Despite the loss of Anand he was clearly better (perhaps even winning) and you may find this manoeuvre as well in the game.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
gewgaw
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 683
Location: europe
Joined: 09/09/04
Re: Another attempt to understand the spoiled KID
Reply #10 - 01/20/12 at 15:24:03
Post Tools
Matemax wrote on 01/19/12 at 21:39:07:
White is clearly better after 14.a3 - Black's knight has to be on the kingside (on g6) for a successful attack on the white king. The knight on a6 is just out of play and Black has not enough resources for counterplay

You had to play 10...Nc5 attacking the e4-pawn - White goes 11.Nd2 and now Black secures the knight on c5 (at least for the time being) with ...a5. You dont have to be afraid of 11.Bf6?! when White just gives up the bishop pair. After b4 the knight on d7 still hinders c5 (you could then also think about ...b6) and you continue your kingside plan with ...Bf6-g7, ...f7-f5, ...Nd7-f6 with very good play!


Thanks @matemax for your thoughts.

1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. d4 O-O 6. Be2 Na6 7. O-O e5 8. Bg5 Qe8 9. d5 Nc5 10. Bxf6 Bxf6 11. b4 Nd7 12. Ne1 (12. Nd2 Bg7 13. Rc1 f5
14. f3 Bh6) (12. c5) 12... Bg7 13. Nd3 f5 14. c5 Nf6 15. f3 Bh6

I like the positions, that can arise after 10.Bxf6 as given above, so your 9. ... Nc5, instead of 9. ...h6, seems far better.

When I play through the game again, I´m still not sure, where White blundered in the next moves. Was 16.Nb3 just odd or just bad?
  

The older, the better - over 2200 and still rising.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Matemax
God Member
*****
Offline


Chesspub gives you strength!

Posts: 1302
Joined: 11/04/07
Re: Another attempt to understand the spoiled KID
Reply #9 - 01/19/12 at 21:39:07
Post Tools
White is clearly better after 14.a3 - Black's knight has to be on the kingside (on g6) for a successful attack on the white king. The knight on a6 is just out of play and Black has not enough resources for counterplay

You had to play 10...Nc5 attacking the e4-pawn - White goes 11.Nd2 and now Black secures the knight on c5 (at least for the time being) with ...a5. You dont have to be afraid of 11.Bf6?! when White just gives up the bishop pair. After b4 the knight on d7 still hinders c5 (you could then also think about ...b6) and you continue your kingside plan with ...Bf6-g7, ...f7-f5, ...Nd7-f6 with very good play!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
fling
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1591
Joined: 01/21/11
Gender: Male
Re: Another attempt to understand the spoiled KID
Reply #8 - 01/19/12 at 05:50:48
Post Tools
Seth_Xoma wrote on 01/19/12 at 05:39:31:
Q1:
After 13 moves we reached a position, which reminds me to the following well known position:

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Be2 O-O 6. Nf3 e5 7. O-O Nc6 8. d5 Ne7 9. Ne1 Nd7 10. Be3 f5 11. f3 f4 12. Bf2 g5

There a couple of differences after black´s ...g5, did I get an improved version?


At first glance, I would think no. White's knight wants to be on d2. From there, it is ready to hop into the c4-square after the c4-c5 pawn break. A better comparison might be the variation with 9.Nd2 in the Classical.


Sorry, yes. When looking at it again, White will be able to play the c5-break pretty painlessly and in that case the knight is indeed better placed on d2 than it would be on d3.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Seth_Xoma
God Member
*****
Offline


FM with 2 IM Norms - (2381)

Posts: 558
Location: Lansing
Joined: 11/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Another attempt to understand the spoiled KID
Reply #7 - 01/19/12 at 05:39:31
Post Tools
Q1:
After 13 moves we reached a position, which reminds me to the following well known position:

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Be2 O-O 6. Nf3 e5 7. O-O Nc6 8. d5 Ne7 9. Ne1 Nd7 10. Be3 f5 11. f3 f4 12. Bf2 g5

There a couple of differences after black´s ...g5, did I get an improved version?


At first glance, I would think no. White's knight wants to be on d2. From there, it is ready to hop into the c4-square after the c4-c5 pawn break. A better comparison might be the variation with 9.Nd2 in the Classical.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
fling
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1591
Joined: 01/21/11
Gender: Male
Re: Another attempt to understand the spoiled KID
Reply #6 - 01/19/12 at 03:01:04
Post Tools
gewgaw wrote on 01/18/12 at 17:37:03:


I still don´t understand the position, maybe it was good, not to know, how bad my position was?!


I just wanted to see the game with the PGN viewer.

The final position looks a bit better for White to me, but on the other hand I have never understood how to play it from the Black side  Grin. White's Nd2 might not be optimally placed, but the queenside play has started. Black has gotten the kingside pawns rolling, but on the knight on a6 is not helping the attack much.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Stigma
God Member
*****
Offline


There is a crack in everything.

Posts: 3261
Joined: 11/07/06
Gender: Male
Re: Another attempt to understand the spoiled KID
Reply #5 - 01/19/12 at 00:51:10
Post Tools
gewgaw wrote on 01/18/12 at 17:29:17:
ErictheRed wrote on 01/17/12 at 16:21:20:
Read Pawn Structure Chess, the chapter on the d5-pawn chain, before trying to learn any "theory."  Just do it.


You recommend a book by Soltis?!


Judging from that comment, I bet you've looked at some of Soltis' hastily written opening books. I can assure you his middlegame and endgame books are much better; for example his Art of Defence in Chess is considered a classic and he wrote two great little books on endgame play for amateurs.

I must admit Pawn Structure Chess always looked a bit underwhelming to me; for every setup he covers I feel a need to immediately find deeper, more nuanced explanations in more specialized books. PCS is very general, while for the openings you're actually going to play you need more specific understanding! You could even say the book is best for quickly getting somewhat acquainted with the opening setups you don't usually play, thus improving your general chess culture.
« Last Edit: 01/19/12 at 04:53:08 by Stigma »  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
gewgaw
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 683
Location: europe
Joined: 09/09/04
Re: Another attempt to understand the spoiled KID
Reply #4 - 01/18/12 at 17:37:03
Post Tools
1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4
d6 5. d4 O-O 6. Be2 Na6 7. O-O e5 8. Bg5 Qe8 9. d5 h6 10. Bh4 Nh7 (10... Nh5 11. Ne1 Nf4 12. f3 f5 13. Rb1 g5 14. Bf2 g4 15. fxg4 fxe4 16. Nxe4 Qg6 17. Bf3 Bxg4 18. Bxg4 Qxe4 19. Qc2 Qxc2 20. Nxc2) (
10... Bd7 11. Bxf6 Bxf6 12. Ne1 Bg7 13. Nd3 c5 14. a3 f5 15. b4 b6 16. bxc5
Nxc5 17. Nxc5 bxc5 18. Rb1 Qc8 19. Rb3 Rb8 20. Nb5) (10... Nc5 11. Bxf6 Bxf6
12. b4 Nd7 {hm, doesn't Nc5 spend to much time?}) 11. Nd2 f5 (11... h5 12. f3
Bh6 13. Bf2 Qe7 {h5, Bh6, Qe7 was invented by Petrosion - have to think about
it, at first sight it looks a bit odd.}) 12. f3 (12. exf5 {0} gxf5 13. Bh5 Qd7)
12... g5 13. Bf2 f4 14. a3 (14. b4!?)

I still don´t understand the position, maybe it was good, not to know, how bad my position was?!
  

The older, the better - over 2200 and still rising.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
gewgaw
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 683
Location: europe
Joined: 09/09/04
Re: Another attempt to understand the spoiled KID
Reply #3 - 01/18/12 at 17:29:17
Post Tools
ErictheRed wrote on 01/17/12 at 16:21:20:
Read Pawn Structure Chess, the chapter on the d5-pawn chain, before trying to learn any "theory."  Just do it.


You recommend a book by Soltis?!
  

The older, the better - over 2200 and still rising.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ErictheRed
God Member
*****
Offline


USCF National Master

Posts: 2532
Location: USA
Joined: 10/02/05
Re: Another attempt to understand the spoiled KID
Reply #2 - 01/17/12 at 16:21:20
Post Tools
Read Pawn Structure Chess, the chapter on the d5-pawn chain, before trying to learn any "theory."  Just do it.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
agropop
Junior Member
**
Offline


Use your brain

Posts: 51
Location: Madrid
Joined: 04/13/10
Gender: Male
Re: Another attempt to understand the spoiled KID
Reply #1 - 01/17/12 at 11:02:39
Post Tools
At first sight the opening resembles a bit the Petrosian Variation. In the Petrosian main line the black a pawn stands in a5 instead a7. This means that the b4 push is easier to achieve but on the other hand black queenside is not as weak once c4-c5 is played. On the other hand the a6 knight is slightly misplaced and can be a problem piece.
Did you consider 10..Cc5 11.Cd2 a5?. Even 10...Nh5!? can be interesting (in the Petrosian system white plays Nd2 right after Qe8 so this move is not posible). 

White can  take f5 at move 12: 12.ef5 gf5 13.Bh5!? Qd7 14.f4, and i believe that black has problems. Why not 11... h5!? 12. f3 Bh6 12. Bf2 (12.Kh1) ...Qe7, in typical Petrosian fashion? The game continuation can be good for white (i don't know) but it's double-edged. Maybe instead 16. Nb3, 16.c5!? can be tried, in the event of 16...dc 17.b5 Nb8 18.d6!? with Bc4 coming next, p.e 18...Be6 19.Bc4 Bc4 20.Nc4 and white is better. If black doesn't take in c5 white has achieved his idea without misplacing his knight, so he can play it to c4 in the coming moves or even play c5-c6, when the a6 knight clearly suffers.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
gewgaw
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 683
Location: europe
Joined: 09/09/04
Another attempt to understand the spoiled KID
01/16/12 at 13:59:43
Post Tools
Hi all,

last sunday I played the KID for the first time in a tournement game and I know it was a weak game by both sides and of course I used the engine for tactical blunders - yes, there were a lot.
Nevertheless I still show the game to get a better understanding of this opening.


1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. d4 O-O 6. Be2 Na6 7. O-O e5 8. Bg5
Qe8 9. d5 h6 10. Bh4 Nh7 11. Nd2 f5 12. f3 g5 13. Bf2 f4 14. a3 Rf7 15. b4 Bf8
16. Nb3 Rg7 17. c5 h5 18. Nb5 b6 19. cxd6 cxd6 20. Rc1 Qd8 21. Nd2 g4 22. fxg4
hxg4 23. g3 Nf6 24. Re1 Rh7 25. Qc2 Qe8 26. Nf1 Qg6 27. Bd3 Nh5 28. gxf4 Nxf4
29. Bg3 Nh3+ 30. Kg2 Bh6 31. Ne3 Bd7 32. Qe2 Nf4+ 33. Bxf4 exf4 34. Nxg4 Qxg4+
35. Qxg4+ Bxg4 36. Nxd6 f3+ 37. Kg3 Rg7 38. Rc6 Nc7 39. Bc4 Bd7+ 40. Kxf3 Rf8+
41. Nf5 Bxc6 0-1

Q1:
After 13 moves we reached a position, which reminds me to the following well known position:

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Be2 O-O 6. Nf3 e5 7. O-O Nc6 8. d5 Ne7 9. Ne1 Nd7 10. Be3 f5 11. f3 f4 12. Bf2 g5

There a couple of differences after black´s ...g5, did I get an improved version?

Q2:
After 17. ...h5 I was quite optimistic about my position, white has nothing concrete on the queenside, played an odd move like 16.Nb3, while I made all standard moves on the king side. What´s your assessment after ...h5?

Q3:
The next moves are difficult to analyse, I don´t know, if 18. ...b6 was necessary or 20. ....Qd8 to prevent Bf2-h4, when I play g5-g4. In any case, I felt, that my attack, came to an end after 23.g3; houdini recommends 23. ...f3, but this move loses all tensions and I can´t see how to proceed?!

The last 15 moves were a result of big time trouble and I just show them for exhilaration.

Don´t hold back, just tell me what you think and answer my question, please.
  

The older, the better - over 2200 and still rising.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo