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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) B77 Giri - Nakamura (Read 32661 times)
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Re: B77 Giri - Nakamura
Reply #34 - 10/17/13 at 13:51:33
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Re: B77 Giri - Nakamura
Reply #33 - 10/16/13 at 20:52:11
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Yes Brabo I already said that we have analysed a lot here, and at the time I have played that game I was unsure that your improvment was better than h4/h6 but now it's clear that it is. And your improvment depends on White's move order. Indeed, as you understand, in a case of an early h4+g4 without a4, Black has to play with h6 entering a difficult endgame but maybe holdable. My game was rated and we played for "e points" in a match with 2 games, one with Black one with White. I have underestimated my opponent, and thought I would either make an easy draw with all my analysis, or suffer to learn something in the queen's ending we analysed here. But instead he crushed me with that g3!! move.
  
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Re: B77 Giri - Nakamura
Reply #32 - 10/16/13 at 20:17:47
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So h6 should be played only after white has played g4 if I understand you well. This is also inline what has been published earlier.
I believe the full analysis are mentioned here but also on my blog I wrote last year an article about this endgame:
http://schaken-brabo.blogspot.be/2012/03/jean-michel-delfosse-en-het-beroemde.ht...

B.t.w. was that a serious rated correspondence game in which you voluntarily chose to suffer in this endgame?
  
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Re: B77 Giri - Nakamura
Reply #31 - 10/16/13 at 18:09:02
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Hello it has been a long time since the last discussion on that subject, I have studied that famous pawns ending again and again...And I have decided to show my last conclusion. I have played a correspondance game in that line as Black, and my first and only try have been dramatic but at the same time very instructive. My opponent has been very impressive by finding novelties in that endgame in a very few days that nobody have seen included myself after so much work. So he should deserves a good part of the merits of my last conclusion.

Here is the game:

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 O-O 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.Bc4 Nxd4 10.Bxd4 Be6 11.Bb3 Qa5 12.O-O-O Rfc8 13.Kb1 b5 14.Rhe1 Bxb3 15.cxb3 b4 16.Bxf6 bxc3 17.Bxc3 Bxc3 18.bxc3 Rxc3 19.Re3 Rac8 20.Rxc3 Qxc3 21.Qxc3 Rxc3 22.Rc1 Rxc1+ 23.Kxc1 Kf8 24.Kc2 Ke8 25.Kc3 Kd7 26.Kc4 Kc6 27.h4 h6 28.b4 Kb6 29.a4 e6 30.g3!! (a total surprise, an amazing novelty) Ka6 31.f4! Kb6 32.a5+! Ka6 33.g4 Kb7 34.b5 Kc7 35.f5 (Now White is going to force a transposition into the game Rittner-Arnlind which is now considered to be lost for Black)Kd7 36.f6 g5 37.h5 Kc7 38.Kd4 Kd8 39.e5 d5 40.Kc5 Kd7 41.b6 axb6+ 42.Kxb6 Kc8 43.Kc5 Kb7 44.Kd6 d4 45.Ke7 d3 46.Kxf7 d2 47.Kg7 d1Q 48.f7 Qxg4 49.f8Q Qe4 50.Qd6 Qf5 51.Qb6+ Ka8 52.Qd8+ Kb7 53.Qf6 g4 54.Qxf5 exf5 55.e6 g3 56.e7 g2 57.e8Q g1Q+ 58.Kxh6 Qb1 59.Qd7+ Kb8 60.Qd6+ Ka8 61.Qc6+ Kb8 62.Kg5 Qg1+ 63.Kxf5 and this is 1-0 according to the tablebase 6 pieces. This game ending was perfectly played by White.

This guy alone seemed to refute the whole ending with ease. I worked hard to not allow that Rittner-Arnlind transposition but the alternatives were worse.

27.h4! and 27.b4! are of equal value and should transpose. In my previous analysis I thought that Black was quite ok with ..h6 after h4, where I believed in Black's drawing chances in the queen's endings we have analysed here before. But that game shows that 27.h4! wins against 27..h6 (?!). My improvment for Black now is to play 27..e6! 28.b4! Kb6! 29.a4 and now if 29..h6?! we transpose into my game. So here, we have the last idea of Brabo, which is 29..f6! and I have tried to refute it, but I could not find a winning line for White here. There are many ways to try but still it seems to hold. But now I am very careful because "we never know"... The idea to meet the f4 move with f5 or the g4 move with g5 is very strong. So the last chance for Black to survive is definitively that 29..f6! instead of playing with h6.

But, that's not the end of the story. The lines I have analysed here with h6 are not useless.

27.h4! e6! 28.b4! Kb6! and now instead of 29.a4 f6!, White can try 29.g4!? where 29.. f6? lose to 30.f4! but 29.g4!? should be responded by 29...h6! 30.f4! a6! which has been analysed here and with the conclusion that Black may hold, it's not clear if White is winning but he has good chances.

So Brabo's idea to avoid to play h6 and to play f6 is really good, but cannot be played against every move orders, it only works against an early a4 idea. Against an early h4/h4, Black has to play h6 instead of f6 and has to play the line we have analysed here.
  
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Re: B77 Giri - Nakamura
Reply #30 - 03/25/12 at 10:11:08
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Papageno wrote on 03/24/12 at 22:56:55:
Sorry to be posting quite late. Here is a remark of mine on #19. I'll be back if I find something in all of your interesting postings #20 to #27.

brabo wrote on 03/20/12 at 22:35:25:
However after 27...Kb6 28.a4 e6 29.h4 Kc6 30.b5+ Kb6 31.Kb4 f6 32.h5 Kc7! 33.Ka5 d5! 34.exd5 exd5 35.Kb4 d4 36.Kc4 (On 36.a5 follows Kd6) Kb6 37.h6 d3 38.Kxd3 Ka5 39.f4 Kxa4 40.Kc4 Ka5 41.Kc5 f5 42.g3 Ka4 43.b6 axb6+ 44.Kxb6 and white will eat the pawn on h7 but it is still draw as black can lock the king up with Kf7.

This is a nice line but certainly not forced. 33.Ka5 is not best. Instead, 33.g4 is clearly winning. 28. a4 probably does not deserve a question mark.

27... Kb6 28. a4 e6 29. h4 Kc6 30. b5+ Kb6 31. Kb4 f6 32. h5! Kc7! and here my engines say 33. g4! +-
The winning plan is e.g. 33... Kb6 34. f4 +- with f4-f5 to follow.
Only after say 33... g5 then 34. Ka5 d5 35. exd5 exd5 36. Kb4 d4 37. a5 +-.

There is no need to examine 32. g3 here, I think.

You are right, that was sloppy from me.
I believe black can improve with 27... Kb6 28. a4 e6 29. h4 f6! with same ideas as before g4-g5 and f4-f5. On the queenside I don't see how black can become in zugzwang as he can now play a6 and put the king in such position than black can always answer b5 with a5 (ok as white doesn't possess anymore of the plan f4-f5-f6).
  
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Re: B77 Giri - Nakamura
Reply #29 - 03/24/12 at 22:56:55
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Sorry to be posting quite late. Here is a remark of mine on #19. I'll be back if I find something in all of your interesting postings #20 to #27.

brabo wrote on 03/20/12 at 22:35:25:
However after 27...Kb6 28.a4 e6 29.h4 Kc6 30.b5+ Kb6 31.Kb4 f6 32.h5 Kc7! 33.Ka5 d5! 34.exd5 exd5 35.Kb4 d4 36.Kc4 (On 36.a5 follows Kd6) Kb6 37.h6 d3 38.Kxd3 Ka5 39.f4 Kxa4 40.Kc4 Ka5 41.Kc5 f5 42.g3 Ka4 43.b6 axb6+ 44.Kxb6 and white will eat the pawn on h7 but it is still draw as black can lock the king up with Kf7.

This is a nice line but certainly not forced. 33.Ka5 is not best. Instead, 33.g4 is clearly winning. 28. a4 probably does not deserve a question mark.

27... Kb6 28. a4 e6 29. h4 Kc6 30. b5+ Kb6 31. Kb4 f6 32. h5! Kc7! and here my engines say 33. g4! +-
The winning plan is e.g. 33... Kb6 34. f4 +- with f4-f5 to follow.
Only after say 33... g5 then 34. Ka5 d5 35. exd5 exd5 36. Kb4 d4 37. a5 +-.

There is no need to examine 32. g3 here, I think.
  
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Re: B77 Giri - Nakamura
Reply #28 - 03/23/12 at 19:44:53
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Very good summary of our analysis of the ending, brabo. It's clear that everything could not be mentioned but it shows the topical positions.

I would add that while I was the first to mention 18..Qe5, at least in the forum, I don't think Black can fully equalize here after 19.Kb2! Qxh2 20.Rh1. About 15.a3, it's clear that this move is almost unknown, and it was not that easy for me to find how to equalize, White want to play Na2 in response to ..b4, and I think Black is about equal after 15..Rab8! but 16.h4 is the most dangerous to me here, but it might be balanced.
  
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Re: B77 Giri - Nakamura
Reply #27 - 03/23/12 at 10:56:57
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Many thanks ArKheiN and of course also Papageno for your contributions.

I summarize here below the latest status of the analysis.



So now we are where we started. Black is still playing for 2 results: draw or loss. The only difference is that we are 15 moves (or even more) further in the game. I would never voluntary want to play one of the queenendgames out with black but theoretically it could be that it is still a draw as the extra a-pawn gives really very little shelter for the king.

As you can see in the analysis, I added some more lost lines but the mainline was kept.

Still interested to hear from somebody if improvements on white or blacks side can be made (earlier in the endgame?) as none of both sides can be 100% satisfied with the endconclusion.
  
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Re: B77 Giri - Nakamura
Reply #26 - 03/22/12 at 17:02:42
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Brabo said:
Quote:
Don't you mean 33.g5 as in my analysis as otherwise we have 32..hxg5 followed up with Kb5?


No, I confirm, I say that 32.g5 is very strong, and 32.Ka4 is strong too, both leads to +/- queen's endings at least, but maybe 32.g5 lead to a more difficult ending to play for Black. White still has to play very precise to get something here, and it's maybe not winning, but it may be even more promising for White than 32.Ka4. The next moves are very instructives. 32.g5 hxg5 33.hxg5! Kb5 34.Kc3! Kc6 35.Kb2! Kb6 36.Ka3! Kb5 37.Kb3! Kc6 38.Ka4! Kb6! 39.a3! Kc6 40.Ka5 d5 and now the rush to queen begin, with at least +/- in the end. I think Black should play 32..h5 instead of hxg5 if White play like a God, because as we have seen, White has to play a precise manoeuvre to get the advantage against 32..hxg5. This is easier to get the advantage against 32..h5 but in the beginning of queen's ending, I judged it as "more chance to draw" than the queen's ending after 32..hxg5. Objectively speaking, 32.Ka4 is maybe just as good as 32.g5, but I don't know if there is someone that strong that could judge the correct evaluation of theses queen's endings.
  
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Re: B77 Giri - Nakamura
Reply #25 - 03/22/12 at 09:08:04
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ArKheiN wrote on 03/21/12 at 23:40:12:
To brabo: 28.a4 e6 29.h4 f6? 30.g4! wins for White. For example 30..g5  31.b5+ axb5 32.axb5+ Kb6 33.hxg5 fxg5 34.Kb4 Also strong against an early a6 is to play b5!, if possible in the position after h4/h6.

You are right. I forgot about the triangulations. I was busy till 2AM so quite groggy looking at this fascinating endgame.

A6 probably indeed doesn't work. I don't give up the plan with f6. Maybe it is playable without a6. Besides we also need to look more in detail to g5 as I too easily rejected that move.

A new summary:
  
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Re: B77 Giri - Nakamura
Reply #24 - 03/22/12 at 08:24:03
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ArKheiN wrote on 03/21/12 at 22:49:04:
So, the most dangerous line I have found is what Brabo and Papageno are discussing, the line of the pgn I put. And after 31..Kc6, White should play 32.g5!! (the most promising to me) or 32.Ka4! (still very promising, and Black has to play 32..f6)

Don't you mean 33.g5 as in my analysis as otherwise we have 32..hxg5 followed up with Kb5?
  
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Re: B77 Giri - Nakamura
Reply #23 - 03/21/12 at 23:40:12
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To brabo: 28.a4 e6 29.h4 f6? 30.g4! wins for White. For example 30..g5  31.b5+ axb5 32.axb5+ Kb6 33.hxg5 fxg5 34.Kb4 Also strong against an early a6 is to play b5!, if possible in the position after h4/h6.
  
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Re: B77 Giri - Nakamura
Reply #22 - 03/21/12 at 23:33:47
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I believe that I found the same line as ArKheiN after Papagenos strong novelty. I am not sure it wins for white but it looks promising the queenendgame.

Therefore I built a new plan for black based on faster counterplay with d5. The idea as already explained in one of the previous analysed lines, is to respond h4 not with h6 but with f6. This gives the flexibility to answer g4 with g5 and f4 with f5.



So I am more looking again to a6, followed up with f6 at move 29. I don't see immediately a way through for white.
  
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Re: B77 Giri - Nakamura
Reply #21 - 03/21/12 at 22:49:04
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Good pieces of work, Papageno and Brabo. I had a very tense work of the ending just after the game Giri-Nakamura, using every source I could (the forum and some old threads, the article of Luis Rodi Maletich, the scan of an article by Van der Weide/Bosch from Nic Magazine 98 I got with the help of a chesspub member (Parisestmagique) and a response of that article in another NiC Magazine.) I used my engine with many "handplay" and trial-error.

I wanted to publish some analysis but I didn't because I wanted to keep it a bit secret for a moment. But you are close to my conclusions now. After a lot of work, my conclusion was one day "White is winning", one day "there is a defense for Black" until I have found a new demolition. Today, my conclusion is: the ending is really complicate, but the way most White player plays it is draw. I am not sure if Black can draw against best play, I have found very promising queen's ending for White but I don't know if it's winning or not, too complicated...

I have constructed a big file in chessposition trainer on that ending, but I am not very good to do pgn like you did. The pgn here is just to respond to Papageno.



31..Kc6 is a better try than 31..Kb5 (like you, I have found that 31..Kb5 is losing to h5!!)
After 31..Kc6!, the game is still very hard for Black.

Here are some of the rules I had wrote for myself, and some of them were cited by Brabo and others:

1)Black has to come as quickly as possible to c6, with the King, and it must be via f8.

2) a quick d5 is possible for Black when White push b5 alone.

3) a6 should be play only after White play a4 AND f4. (of course there are exceptions)

4) e6 should be played as fast as possible to not allow a way for White to come on d5 with the King

5) Black should probably play h6 against h4, but have to be really careful to not play ..g5 automatically because of the break with h5+f4 from White. It's not so clear when it's the last moment for Black to play h6, probably when White is able to push the g-pawn to g5. It may be an useful "waiting move" to play h6 automatically after h4.

6) The White idea of f4-f5-f6 followed by e5 with the idea to enter with the King, allowing Black to queen first as Rittner-Arnlind is always dangerous. When White play that idea after h5 gxg5 gxh5, it should be easy draw for Black. When EACH kingside pawns are blocked, that same idea doesn't work for White when in the queenside, White has a4+b4 against a6. because there is no Zugwzwang possible.

7) Another dangerous plan: h4 played followed by g4 and h5 to FORCE Black to take on h5 or White will break with f4. But that idea works mostly with the a pawn still on a2, to let the White king come to a5.

8) When White has played h4/g4/f4/e4 b4/a4, Black can't play without a6, because Rittner-Arnlind wins for White.

9) When White plays a quick g4 without h4, g5 is generally good for Black

10) the most promising idea for White is to come as fast as possible in c4 with the king, followed by h4!, then g4, then b4 and f4, and to keep the pawn in a2. That idea of keeping the pawn in a2 seems to be totally new ( I have checked every published games of this ending, corr and OTB) and I have found it while I was working on it, and Brabo seems to have found that too.

So, the most dangerous line I have found is what Brabo and Papageno are discussing, the line of the pgn I put. And after 31..Kc6, White should play 32.g5!! (the most promising to me) or 32.Ka4! (still very promising, and Black has to play 32..f6)

My work here continue to queen's endings with a pawn up for White but I am not able to say if it wins or not, but it's the best practical chance for White.




  
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Re: B77 Giri - Nakamura
Reply #20 - 03/21/12 at 12:52:13
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Thx. Lots of stuff to examine. But allow me to post a new thought first.

This time I'm challenging your analysis of 27... Kb6 with the more flexible 28. h4 (as it still permits the white king in some lines to win space via Kc4-b3-a4-a5 etc.) and the new move 30.f4 which is not mentioned in your analysis: After 27.... Kb6, White's best might be the line 28. h4 e6 29. g4 h6 30. f4!

Please have a look at the replayable PGN below:
  
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