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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) B77 Giri - Nakamura (Read 39410 times)
brabo
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Re: B77 Giri - Nakamura
Reply #19 - 03/20/12 at 22:35:25
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Papageno wrote on 03/20/12 at 14:02:26:
Not yet fully convinced that your improvement 27... Kb6 holds for Black in the game Bukavshin-Belous.

You gave the defense 27.... Kb6 (!) 28. a4 e6 29. h4 Kc6 30. b5+ Kb6 31. Kb4 f6 (!) but then 32. h5! is winning.
(The idea is 32... gxh5 33. f4 and pushing f4-f5 to open a road for the white king. The alternative 32... g5 33. g3 allows for the same winning manoeuvre.)

I am neither fully convinced as it is extremely complicated. Smiley

However after 27...Kb6 28.a4 e6 29.h4 Kc6 30.b5+ Kb6 31.Kb4 f6 32.h5 Kc7! 33.Ka5 d5! 34.exd5 exd5 35.Kb4 d4 36.Kc4 (On 36.a5 follows Kd6) Kb6 37.h6 d3 38.Kxd3 Ka5 39.f4 Kxa4 40.Kc4 Ka5 41.Kc5 f5 42.g3 Ka4 43.b6 axb6+ 44.Kxb6 and white will eat the pawn on h7 but it is still draw as black can lock the king up with Kf7.

Still there is a mistake in my analysis as after 27...Kb6 28.a4 e6 29.h4 Kc6 30.b5+ Kb6 31.Kb4 f6 32.g3 Kc7 33.Ka5 Kb7 34.h5 works now with same ideas but eliminating d5 as after 34...d5 35.exd5 exd5 36.Kb4 d4 37.a5 black doesn't have Kd6 so loses. Besides black neither has time for 34...Kc7 35.Ka6! , 34...Kb8 35.b6! 34...Ka8 35.Ka6! and all winning for white

So white afterall wins? No as I learned something from the first variation:
27...Kb6 28.a4 e6 29.h4 Kc6 30.b5+ Kb6 31.Kb4 f6 32.g3 Kc7 33.Ka5 d5! (and now it again works as king is on c7 able to chose between the routes b6 and d6 to pick up the queensidepawns) 34.exd5 exd5 35.Kb4 d4 36.h5 d3 37.Kc3 Kb6 38.Kxd3 Ka5 39.h6 Kxa4 40.Kc4 Ka5 41.Kc5 f5 42.f4 and we are back in the earlier mentioned variation. There are still lots of tricks after d5 but my computer thinks black arrives just on time.

I summarize again:


Anyway Papageno many thanks for your contribution as I don't expect many people taking up the challenge to dig in this endgame.
  
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Papageno
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Re: B77 Giri - Nakamura
Reply #18 - 03/20/12 at 14:02:26
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Not yet fully convinced that your improvement 27... Kb6 holds for Black in the game Bukavshin-Belous.

You gave the defense 27.... Kb6 (!) 28. a4 e6 29. h4 Kc6 30. b5+ Kb6 31. Kb4 f6 (!) but then 32. h5! is winning.
(The idea is 32... gxh5 33. f4 and pushing f4-f5 to open a road for the white king. The alternative 32... g5 33. g3 allows for the same winning manoeuvre.)
  
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brabo
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Re: B77 Giri - Nakamura
Reply #17 - 03/16/12 at 09:22:19
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I had the last week, a very extensive look to the famous pawnendgame using many sources.
- Megadatabase games and analysis
- Correspondence games and analysis
- Analysis of chesspub
- Analysis of Argentinian Luis Ernesto Rodi Maletich: http://www.ajedrez.com.ar/rodi_7.htm
- ...

My computerengines were quite helpless in this endgame as often the variations were leading far beyond the horizon of the calculations.

The endgame is extremely complicated and even after many hours analysis and using all these resources, I don't dare to say that my analysis are bulletproof. I found however plenty of ameliorations on old analysis and many new ideas and tricks.

I believe white has the following mainideas for a win:
- Putting king on a6
- Putting pawn on f6 and then breaking through with the king to pick up the pawn on f7
- Create a free pawn on the queenside and win via triangulations.

Blacks defences are in choosing the right setup on the queenside:
- Blocking with a5 even if this gives a passed b5 pawn for white
- Giving white the free pawn on the queenside but generating sufficient counterplay with d5
- Keep the a-pawn on a7 and organise the defense from the 7the line.

Key I think for both sides, is to keep maximum flexibility. On the other hand if white wants to win, he will need to move forward.

I tried to use a very recent mastergame as tool to explain all the ideas.



White became GM next year. Black became IM next year and won on top Moscow Open: http://www.chessvibes.com/reports/untitled-vladimir-belous-wins-moscow-open/
Chess is a very complex game if even such simple looking positions can lead to so many mistakes.
« Last Edit: 03/16/12 at 12:59:10 by brabo »  
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bragesjo
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Re: B77 Giri - Nakamura
Reply #16 - 01/31/12 at 11:53:45
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Having looked a bit more, black position in Kamsky-Nakamure seems very solid and the game is of theoritcal value and a game that must be annotated at next update at subscription section. Hopefully Giri-Nakamure will be annotated there too.
  
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bragesjo
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Re: B77 Giri - Nakamura
Reply #15 - 01/28/12 at 16:21:45
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It was a suprise that Kamsky played a critical line against Dragon (9 0-0-0 12 Bd4), I have seen many games where he plays short castle lines. I will not have time to analyse the games myself tommorow.
  
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Re: B77 Giri - Nakamura
Reply #14 - 01/27/12 at 12:36:17
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Another Dragon today, against Kamsky!
  
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Keano
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Re: B77 Giri - Nakamura
Reply #13 - 01/25/12 at 16:56:17
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Quote:
In any case, I think Giri was well behind on the clock after being surprised by this antique line, which also supports a "safety first" approach.


Ah thats interesting, it makes accepting the draw easier to understand, especially when up against a quick player like Nakamura.
  
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Re: B77 Giri - Nakamura
Reply #12 - 01/25/12 at 16:40:24
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I must confess that I thought one of the characteristics of Karpov's style is to react to opening suprises by playing safe and making a short draw, even with white.

In his matches against Kasparov this is correct. Before it was different - Karpov's opponents were happy to draw as White. Only Larsen and Timman tried to beat him.
From 1972 until 1983 Karpov won 53% of his games as White and drew only 18 of 377 before move 21.
Compare Kasparov from 1982 until 1993: 52% and 29 draws of more than 369.
  

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Re: B77 Giri - Nakamura
Reply #11 - 01/25/12 at 16:21:01
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Keano wrote on 01/25/12 at 15:53:36:
Would like to see a young Karpov play White there though, the slowly slowly approach.


I must confess that I thought one of the characteristics of Karpov's style is to react to opening suprises by playing safe and making a short draw, even with white.  Example: game 12 of the 1985 Wch match with the Kasparov gambit in the Taimanov.  Karpov should probably have avoided in in game 16 too...

In any case, I think Giri was well behind on the clock after being surprised by this antique line, which also supports a "safety first" approach.
  
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Keano
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Re: B77 Giri - Nakamura
Reply #10 - 01/25/12 at 15:53:36
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fling wrote on 01/24/12 at 21:31:50:
The more I look at the position, the more I think Black might be better if White tries to press. The only two half open files belong two Black and the double h-pawns can restrain White on the kingside. In other words, Black is more active, even though structurally potentially worse.


Well he must have something going for him for the doubled-h pawns and these 2 young maestros agreed a draw. Would like to see a young Karpov play White there though, the slowly slowly approach.
  
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Re: B77 Giri - Nakamura
Reply #9 - 01/24/12 at 21:31:50
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The more I look at the position, the more I think Black might be better if White tries to press. The only two half open files belong two Black and the double h-pawns can restrain White on the kingside. In other words, Black is more active, even though structurally potentially worse.
  
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Keano
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Re: B77 Giri - Nakamura
Reply #8 - 01/24/12 at 19:43:31
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Is this doubled h-pawn thing a standard endgame in the Dragon? As White I'd never take a draw there and plod on. Not sure the immediate h4 is best though that was just my first instinct, maybe Bd5 or c3 first and play for the good long fight. These super young geniuses obviously think different, or else just wanted an easy day.
  
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bragesjo
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Re: B77 Giri - Nakamura
Reply #7 - 01/24/12 at 11:41:16
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Keano wrote on 01/24/12 at 10:51:25:
I'm a bit mystified by that Giri-Nakamura game. To my understanding of chess White should be continuing the game with 19.h4 and trying to grind out a win, surely Karpov would've done? Can't White play on with minimal risk?


Of course white can play on, but the problem is that g pawn may became weak. Also, h4 may create weaknesses that blacks king can exploit. But I am no saying that black is better, I think the final position is dead equal.
  
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Re: B77 Giri - Nakamura
Reply #6 - 01/24/12 at 10:51:25
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I'm a bit mystified by that Giri-Nakamura game. To my understanding of chess White should be continuing the game with 19.h4 and trying to grind out a win, surely Karpov would've done? Can't White play on with minimal risk?
  
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Re: B77 Giri - Nakamura
Reply #5 - 01/22/12 at 01:23:24
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Thank you MNb. My idea for Black to not allow an early ending is 19..Qe5!?, but I couldn't check if it has been tried. This move seems to give only a minimal advantage for White, Black hope to eat the c-pawn in better conditions, or the h pawn, or to have enough pressure with still the queens on the board...
  
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