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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Against London-System (Read 6978 times)
gewgaw
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Re: Against London-System
Reply #10 - 02/10/12 at 16:09:45
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MNb wrote on 02/09/12 at 02:00:34:
You are contradicting yourself.

gewgaw wrote on 02/08/12 at 16:31:06:
I still think, White has nothing serious and the position is equal after 20 moves.

gewgaw wrote on 02/05/12 at 19:21:50:
I didn´t have the right setup to create counterplay.

Not being able to create counterplay is a serious disadvantage.
More concrete: White may not have much at move 20, but the weakness of pawn e7 is a long term weakness. It forced you to put a Rook on e8 without any prospect of getting the liberating e7-e5 in. As a result your plan of ...b6 backfired and gave White the opportunity to invade with a Rook.
Somewhat better is 28...Qb5 29.Qf2 b6 but 30.cxb6 Qxb6 31.Qc2 and 32.Rb1 is still a bit better for White. He controls the only open file.


In some way you are right, on the other hand, if I do nothing and just trade all rooks via e6, then a draw is the likely result. In the meantime, I looked up the appropriate lines in Dembo´s "Anti-kid"-book, hopefully I can remember the lines next time.  Wink
  

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MNb
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Re: Against London-System
Reply #9 - 02/09/12 at 02:00:34
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You are contradicting yourself.

gewgaw wrote on 02/08/12 at 16:31:06:
I still think, White has nothing serious and the position is equal after 20 moves.

gewgaw wrote on 02/05/12 at 19:21:50:
I didn´t have the right setup to create counterplay.

Not being able to create counterplay is a serious disadvantage.
More concrete: White may not have much at move 20, but the weakness of pawn e7 is a long term weakness. It forced you to put a Rook on e8 without any prospect of getting the liberating e7-e5 in. As a result your plan of ...b6 backfired and gave White the opportunity to invade with a Rook.
Somewhat better is 28...Qb5 29.Qf2 b6 but 30.cxb6 Qxb6 31.Qc2 and 32.Rb1 is still a bit better for White. He controls the only open file.
  

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gewgaw
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Re: Against London-System
Reply #8 - 02/08/12 at 16:31:06
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hi again and thxs for your thoughts.

I rarely play against the London-system, so I know the critical lines just superficially and forgot most of the lines.
White surprised me with 7.0-0 and I feared after 7. ...Qb6 8.Nc3 Qxb2 9.Nb5 would be unpleasent for me, so I refrained from playing ...Qb6 and played the provocative 7. ...Be6. Again, I was surprised by 8.c4, but I thought London-system and c4 doesn´t fit together and went for Grunfeld like play. I was quite content with the position after 11. ...Ne4 and maybe I played 12. ... Nxc3 too lefthanded and careless. I thought, sooner or later, I would play b7b6 and get pressure on the c-file, but undervalued 15.Ne5, when my square Xd7 gets quite weak. But okay, I still think, White has nothing serious and the position is equal after 20 moves, but it´s not easy to play with Black and spent lots of time, so I got in heavy timetrouble.
  

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OrangeCounty
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Re: Against London-System
Reply #7 - 02/07/12 at 20:14:49
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This is admittedly not deep analysis but generally Black wants to choose between ....d6 and ...d5, not play one and then the other.  Against the London, either one is fine - it isn't like you're going to be lost almost no matter what you do - but you're giving away a tempo here.  After you play a "King's Indian" setup, you should look to play ...e7-e5 or ...c7-c5 to attack that dastardly d-pawn.  Then, your goal is to make White capture or advance and lock the center, after which you advance the pawn next to the one you pushed (b or f pawn) to create your counterplay.

Obviously the game of chess isn't this simple.  But playing with a fianchetto is almost always about pawn breaks and you left yourself without good ones to play for.
  
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MNb
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Re: Against London-System
Reply #6 - 02/06/12 at 23:47:54
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gewgaw wrote on 02/06/12 at 18:31:03:
Can you explain it in more detail, pls. Smiley

Ask yourself which is the more active piece, Nc3 or Ne4.

To answer your initial question, why you didn't get any counterplay, with 7...Be6 and 9...d5 you doom your Bishops to passivity for a very long time. Basically after 10.c5 Black's only chance for counterplay is the break ...e5 and that's close to impossible.
  

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fling
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Re: Against London-System
Reply #5 - 02/06/12 at 21:39:39
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gewgaw wrote on 02/06/12 at 18:31:03:
fling wrote on 02/05/12 at 22:02:08:
I am not sure, but it looks like something could be improved around move 7 and 10. Black normally plays 7 ...Qb6, before ...Be6 is played. Even though the pawn can't be taken after 8.Nbd2, in this case, White won't be able to play c4. The structure after 9 ...d5 10. c5 to me looks a bit better for White.

But I think the real mistake was to play 12 ...Nxc3.


Can you explain it in more detail, pls. Smiley


I don't know, it just doesn't look right. The knight on e4 is well placed and if White didn't take it in the previous move, why not let it be. Also, after the exchange White has an open b-file and a strengthened center. Or maybe the follow-up should be ...Qa5, rather than ...Rc8 in case of an exchange. I am not sure what the rook is doing on c8.

I have no idea, but I guess the players could be around 1700-2000. Hope I am not insulting anybody!

What were your ideas during the game?
  
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gewgaw
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Re: Against London-System
Reply #4 - 02/06/12 at 18:35:53
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 02/06/12 at 01:09:39:
gewgaw wrote on 02/05/12 at 19:21:50:
Any ideas?

Well, by a stroke of luck Eric's last two updates have shown just why this particular line is good for Black! Roll Eyes


Thx for the hint!

Just by curiousity: can you guess the strength of both players, when you play through this game?
  

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gewgaw
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Re: Against London-System
Reply #3 - 02/06/12 at 18:31:03
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fling wrote on 02/05/12 at 22:02:08:
I am not sure, but it looks like something could be improved around move 7 and 10. Black normally plays 7 ...Qb6, before ...Be6 is played. Even though the pawn can't be taken after 8.Nbd2, in this case, White won't be able to play c4. The structure after 9 ...d5 10. c5 to me looks a bit better for White.

But I think the real mistake was to play 12 ...Nxc3.


Can you explain it in more detail, pls. Smiley
  

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GMTonyKosten
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Re: Against London-System
Reply #2 - 02/06/12 at 01:09:39
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gewgaw wrote on 02/05/12 at 19:21:50:
Any ideas?

Well, by a stroke of luck Eric's last two updates have shown just why this particular line is good for Black! Roll Eyes
  
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fling
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Re: Against London-System
Reply #1 - 02/05/12 at 22:02:08
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I am not sure, but it looks like something could be improved around move 7 and 10. Black normally plays 7 ...Qb6, before ...Be6 is played. Even though the pawn can't be taken after 8.Nbd2, in this case, White won't be able to play c4. The structure after 9 ...d5 10. c5 to me looks a bit better for White.

But I think the real mistake was to play 12 ...Nxc3.
  
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gewgaw
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Against London-System
02/05/12 at 19:21:50
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Hi all,

today I played against the London-System and I got a reasonable position, but White had always some pull. Of course, I used houdini to analyse - "skimread" - my game, but I feel, I didn´t have the right setup to create counterplay. Any ideas?

1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 g6 3. Bf4 Bg7 4. h3 O-O 5. e3 d6 6. Be2 c5 7. O-O Be6 8. c4
cxd4 9. exd4 d5 10. c5 Nc6 11. Nc3 Ne4 12. Bb5 Nxc3 13. bxc3 Rc8 14. Qa4 Na5
15. Ne5 Bxe5 16. Bxe5 a6 17. Bd3 Nc4 18. Bxc4 dxc4 19. Rfe1 Qd5 20. Bf4 Rfe8
21. Re5 Qd7 22. Qc2 Rc6 23. Rae1 Bd5 24. Qe2 Re6 25. Qe3 Qc6 26. f3 Rxe5 27.
Bxe5 f6 28. Bg3 b6 29. Rb1 bxc5 30. dxc5 e6 31. Rb6 Qa4 32. Rd6 Kf7 33. Kh2 g5
34. h4 h6 35. h5 Re7 36. Qd2 a5 37. Rxd5 exd5 38. Qxd5+ Re6 39. Bd6 Qd7 40.
Qxc4 Kg7 41. Qd3 f5 42. Bf8+ 1-0
  

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