Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Non-critical KID line for White? (Read 20907 times)
ErictheRed
God Member
*****
Offline


USCF National Master

Posts: 2532
Location: USA
Joined: 10/02/05
Re: Non-critical KID line for White?
Reply #24 - 02/19/12 at 20:14:19
Post Tools
My philosophy is to play main lines, but not necessarily MAIN main lines.  Against the KID, that means the Saemisch with 6.Bg5; I have a tremendous score with it (my performance rating is probably +200 or +300 above my regular rating)!  So pick a sub-line that has been played a lot by top players, specialize in it, dive in and do the work.  It might take a while but you'll be rewarded in the long run. 

I guess I'd recommend the Saemisch with either 6.Bg5 or 6.Nge2, the Averbakh, the Makoganov, the Seirawan, maybe even 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6 5. Nf3 O-O 6. Be2 e5 7. O-O Nc6 8. d5 Ne7 9. Ne1 Nd7 10. f3 f5 11. g4 as in Larsen-Tal, 1965, among others.  The point is to find something that denies Black his typical plans and then specialize.

Remember that in lines where the King's Knight goes to e2, like the Seirawan or most Saemisch positions, you can often castle Kingside after x...e5 y.d5, and meet a future ...f7-f5 with x.exf5 gxf5 y.f4!, blockading the f5-pawn and taking away Black's Kingside pawn roller.  Anyway it doesn't really matter what you choose exactly, just pick something with a high pedigree that denies Black his fun, preferably something you don't see other people playing in your area.  Good luck!

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10721
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Non-critical KID line for White?
Reply #23 - 02/19/12 at 14:09:48
Post Tools
Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 02/19/12 at 02:27:36:
Even though you do not want to play 4. e4, a Grünfeld player will not try to risk White not playing 4. e4. Then after 3...Bg7, 4. Nf3 0-0, again I doubt Grünfeld players are going to continuously delay ...d5.

It remains a gamble. 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Nf3 O-O and 6.g3 is answered with ...Bg4.

Statistics can be fun. 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.Nf3 O-O 5.g3 and in 20% of the games Black plays ...d5 while in 11% Black prefers ...c5. Surprisingly 5...c6 is quite rare with 5% but surely playable because of 6.e4 d5!
So I doubt if this is an easy approach for White - it just seems to be imprecise compared to 3.g3.
« Last Edit: 02/19/12 at 15:39:47 by MNb »  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TN
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 3420
Joined: 11/07/08
Gender: Male
Re: Non-critical KID line for White?
Reply #22 - 02/19/12 at 07:18:43
Post Tools
Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 02/19/12 at 02:27:36:
With the Fianchetto, White is not necessarily confined to play the Fianchetto Grünfeld with the move-order, unless for some reason a King's Indian player plays the Fianchetto Grünfeld instead of the Fianchetto King's Indian. 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. Nf3 d6 5. g3. If Black wants to delay moving the d-pawn and cause White to guess, with the move-order 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3, Black must play 3...d5 as a Grünfeld player, since 3...Bg7 will disallow the Grünfeld with 4. e4. Even though you do not want to play 4. e4, a Grünfeld player will not try to risk White not playing 4. e4. Then after 3...Bg7, 4. Nf3 0-0, again I doubt Grünfeld players are going to continuously delay ...d5. Then 5. g3, and Black can choose between the Fianchetto Grünfeld or Fianchetto King's Indian, but as far as I have seen, King's Indian players usually play the Fianchetto King's Indian.


I forgot about the 3.Nf3 Bg7 4.Nc3 0-0 5.e4 move order, so yes you are right. Having Nf3 thrown in does stop White playing the main line of the Exchange with 7.Bc4 and a few other lines, but there's still plenty of challenging lines in the Grunfeld involving Nf3.
  

All our dreams come true if we have the courage to pursue them.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Gilchrist is a legend
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1039
Location: Manchester, UK
Joined: 03/02/10
Re: Non-critical KID line for White?
Reply #21 - 02/19/12 at 02:27:36
Post Tools
With the Fianchetto, White is not necessarily confined to play the Fianchetto Grünfeld with the move-order, unless for some reason a King's Indian player plays the Fianchetto Grünfeld instead of the Fianchetto King's Indian. 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. Nf3 d6 5. g3. If Black wants to delay moving the d-pawn and cause White to guess, with the move-order 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3, Black must play 3...d5 as a Grünfeld player, since 3...Bg7 will disallow the Grünfeld with 4. e4. Even though you do not want to play 4. e4, a Grünfeld player will not try to risk White not playing 4. e4. Then after 3...Bg7, 4. Nf3 0-0, again I doubt Grünfeld players are going to continuously delay ...d5. Then 5. g3, and Black can choose between the Fianchetto Grünfeld or Fianchetto King's Indian, but as far as I have seen, King's Indian players usually play the Fianchetto King's Indian.
  

Creo lo que creo no importa lo que creen los demás.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
gramsci
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 210
Joined: 11/11/09
Re: Non-critical KID line for White?
Reply #20 - 02/18/12 at 23:28:42
Post Tools
What about Makogonov & Krasenkow's h3 systems?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10721
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Non-critical KID line for White?
Reply #19 - 02/18/12 at 15:43:03
Post Tools
Seeley wrote on 02/17/12 at 21:57:42:
My point above, though, was that it's equally possible for Black to play in this way against Nf3 lines if he wants to.

After 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Nf3 O-O 6.Be2 c5 White usually invites a transposition to the Acc. Dragon with 7.O-O.

Seeley wrote on 02/17/12 at 21:57:42:
My experience with the Averbakh has been that most people nowadays prepare for ...e5 by answering 6.Bg5 with either ...h6 or ...Na6 (or even ...Qe8 in one case). I suspect this has something to do with Black repertoire books trying to maintain some consistency in their approach (ie aiming for ...e5 rather than ...c5) rather than being a reflection of the merits of the two different approaches.

Ah, I didn't know that. Good point.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
saubhikr
Senior Member
****
Offline


Chess is a cruel game
but I still love it

Posts: 332
Location: Milwaukee, WI, USA
Joined: 10/29/06
Gender: Male
Re: Non-critical KID line for White?
Reply #18 - 02/18/12 at 04:12:03
Post Tools
What do you play as black against 1.d4? It may plat a role. If you play Benoni, then four pawn attack is a good option as you will have the familiarity to the pawn structures.
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Seeley
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 352
Location: UK
Joined: 04/03/10
Re: Non-critical KID line for White?
Reply #17 - 02/18/12 at 00:18:48
Post Tools
Fllg wrote on 02/17/12 at 23:44:53:
Regarding the Averbakh Vigorito in his Attacking Chess: The KID II recommends indeed the old 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Be2 0-0 6.Bg5 c5 7.d5 h6 and seemingly has defanged the suggestions by Flear in Dangerous Weapons: The KID. The lines after 8.Bf4 e6 9.dxe6 Bxe6 10.Bxd6 are quite complicated and cannot be played by both sides without a decent theoretical knowledge while 8.Be3 is maybe somewhat easier but allows Black very good counterplay. Sometimes I try to reach this via 6.Bg5 h6 7.Be3 c5 when 8.d5 transposes and 8.e5 is another unclear line.

That's interesting, I didn't know Vigorito had recommended 6...c5. I'm fairly sure, though I don't have the book in front of me, that Bologan suggests ...Na6 and ...e5 in his Chess Stars work.
Regarding 8.e5 in the final line you mention, I seem to recall Panczyk and Ilczuk liking it in their book 'Offbeat KI', though Flear is less than impressed with it in 'Dangerous Weapons'. I've tried this move twice as White and Black got dangerous activity on both occasions. In practice, it's certainly easier to play for Black than for White, imho, and I can't see myself playing the move again.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Fllg
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 647
Joined: 05/30/09
Gender: Male
Re: Non-critical KID line for White?
Reply #16 - 02/17/12 at 23:44:53
Post Tools
Regarding the Averbakh Vigorito in his Attacking Chess: The KID II recommends indeed the old 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Be2 0-0 6.Bg5 c5 7.d5 h6 and seemingly has defanged the suggestions by Flear in Dangerous Weapons: The KID. The lines after 8.Bf4 e6 9.dxe6 Bxe6 10.Bxd6 are quite complicated and cannot be played by both sides without a decent theoretical knowledge while 8.Be3 is maybe somewhat easier but allows Black very good counterplay. Sometimes I try to reach this via 6.Bg5 h6 7.Be3 c5 when 8.d5 transposes and 8.e5 is another unclear line.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Seeley
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 352
Location: UK
Joined: 04/03/10
Re: Non-critical KID line for White?
Reply #15 - 02/17/12 at 21:57:42
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 02/17/12 at 21:28:27:
I think the Averbach has more Benoni flavour than KID flavour. Those Benoni-type positions are quite different from the typical KID positions that arise after ...e7-e5/d4-d5.


You're quite right, of course, that this is the case if Black plays the old main line with ...c5. My point above, though, was that it's equally possible for Black to play in this way against Nf3 lines if he wants to. My experience with the Averbakh has been that most people nowadays prepare for ...e5 by answering 6.Bg5 with either ...h6 or ...Na6 (or even ...Qe8 in one case). I suspect this has something to do with Black repertoire books trying to maintain some consistency in their approach (ie aiming for ...e5 rather than ...c5) rather than being a reflection of the merits of the two different approaches.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10721
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Non-critical KID line for White?
Reply #14 - 02/17/12 at 21:28:27
Post Tools
Zwischenzugzwang wrote on 02/16/12 at 18:45:31:
which
- has some KI "flavour" (so that it helps to acquire "grown up theory" later),

I think the Averbach has more Benoni flavour than KID flavour. Those Benoni-type positions are quite different from the typical KID positions that arise after ...e7-e5/d4-d5.
Against the Seirawan Black can chose both.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Seeley
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 352
Location: UK
Joined: 04/03/10
Re: Non-critical KID line for White?
Reply #13 - 02/17/12 at 20:57:02
Post Tools
Zwischenzugzwang wrote on 02/17/12 at 19:39:33:
Thanks a lot for your comments!

I'm not sure yet what to decide for, I'm somewhere between the Averbakh, Petrosian, Gligoric and Seirawan variations. Following Seeley's suggestion, I've ordered the KI's Dangerous Weapons and will hopefully get it on Monday, so that might make it easier for me to decide which way to go.

Of all the variations mentioned, the Petrosian leads to the most typical King's Indian structures!? For me that's a very good reason to decide for that, although the Gligoric and the Averbakh statistics seem to be more promising ... Undecided

So if you have any other suggestions or arguments speaking for or against those variations, please don't hesitate to tell me!

Best regards,

Zwischenzugzwang


I hope you enjoy and are inspired by Flear's Averbakh chapters in Dangerous Weapons, Zwischenzugzwang. Just to avoid you being put off before you've even started, I thought I'd mention that the hair-raising line in the first game of the first Averbakh chapter ('Cramp and Provoke') can be easily avoided by retreating the B to e3 rather than f4, transposing straight into the more sedate second game.

Also, I disagree with the assertion made earlier in this thread that the Averbakh leads to a wide variety of pawn structures. The way I handle the line is to play d5 as soon as ...e5 is played, so I always get the standard blocked-centre KID pawn structure. Of course, Black can play ...c5 instead of ...e5, or even aim for ...c6 ...a6 and ...b5, but don't forget that this is equally true in most other lines of the KID. Certainly these options are open to Black before you even reach the Petrosian, so you aren't actually avoiding any alternative pawn structures by choosing the Petrosian over the Averbakh. Another virtue of the Averbakh over the Petrosian (and other early Nf3 lines) is that Black is prevented from playing the annoying 6...Bg4, following up with ...Nfd7 and then either ...c5 or ...e5, concentrating pressure against the square d4. This setup is slightly frowned upon by theory, I think it's fair to say, but there's nothing remotely resembling a refutation and it sets White some quite unusual problems for the KID. People who play this as Black tend to know it well, and if you want a standard-ish KID position, you won't get it here!

Anyway, I hope this is of some help. Please do let us know what you decide in the end.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Zwischenzugzwang
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing
& chess pubs!

Posts: 380
Location: Zotzenbach
Joined: 06/14/11
Gender: Male
Re: Non-critical KID line for White?
Reply #12 - 02/17/12 at 19:39:33
Post Tools
Thanks a lot for your comments!

I'm not sure yet what to decide for, I'm somewhere between the Averbakh, Petrosian, Gligoric and Seirawan variations. Following Seeley's suggestion, I've ordered the KI's Dangerous Weapons and will hopefully get it on Monday, so that might make it easier for me to decide which way to go.

Of all the variations mentioned, the Petrosian leads to the most typical King's Indian structures!? For me that's a very good reason to decide for that, although the Gligoric and the Averbakh statistics seem to be more promising ... Undecided

So if you have any other suggestions or arguments speaking for or against those variations, please don't hesitate to tell me!

Best regards,

Zwischenzugzwang
  

What do people mean when they say "Chess is the pawn of the soul"?
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
barnaby
Senior Member
****
Offline


The night is dark and
full of terrors.

Posts: 345
Joined: 01/09/12
Gender: Female
Re: Non-critical KID line for White?
Reply #11 - 02/17/12 at 17:23:15
Post Tools
Well, we all have differing experiences in life and in chess!  I have found the exchange variation to be a very handy weapon that when played correctly by white takes away a lot of black winning attempts and certainly eliminates the dreaded mating attacks. My own anecdotal experience of never having lost as white with is is not scientific by any means, but this particular variation does meet the criteria specifically for what was asked about by the OP. Also agree with the early d5 lines in the Petrosian.  Very thematic, but I have found that relying on opponents being unprepared is not a very sound way to choose an line for myself.   Wink

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Fllg
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 647
Joined: 05/30/09
Gender: Male
Re: Non-critical KID line for White?
Reply #10 - 02/17/12 at 15:30:47
Post Tools
The Petrosian has the advantage that it´s out of fashion but still a very sound line. Black has to know fairly well how to procced to get a decent position. If White is allowed e.g. a regrouping after Bg5 with Nd2 and Be3 Black may well find himself in a passive position where it´s difficult for him to get counterplay since Whites King is a moving target.

At least against a player under Elo 2000 who isn´t well prepared there are good chances to get out of the opening with a big advantage. Of course that is true about every other line as well but the Petrosian requires much less preparation than the Samisch or Fianchetto. Other lines without e4 by White tend to lead to positions not so typical for the pawn chains associated with the KID.

And please don´t start with the Exchange unless you really like to play without Queens. Otherwise in this queenless middlegame you just give Black instant equality. To be honest as Black I wish I would see this more since I really like to play against it.  Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo