ChessPub Forum - Non-critical KID line for White?

Zwischenzugzwang Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing & chess pubs! Posts: 380 Location: Zotzenbach Joined: 06/14/11 Gender:	Re: Non-critical KID line for White? Reply #39 - 04/03/12 at 18:15:45	Post Tools	Print Post
	Generally spoken, I find it very instructive to investigate such „minimal pairs“ (two positions where only a single piece is on a different square). But I haven’t found any opening book yet which does that in a systematic way.

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fling God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1591 Joined: 01/21/11 Gender:	Re: Non-critical KID line for White? Reply #38 - 04/03/12 at 11:08:49	Post Tools	Print Post
	TN wrote on 04/02/12 at 23:25:05: After 9...Qe7 10.0-0 Re8, 11.Rfe1 protects the e4-pawn indirectly by allowing 11...ed4 12.Nd4 Ne4? to be met with 12.Ne4 Qe4 13.Bf3 winning material. That's one reason why it's useful to place your rook behind the opponent's queen in many positions, even some closed ones. After 9...Qc7 10.0-0 Re8, Black's threat of 11...ed4 is a real one, so White plays 11.d5 to stop this threat and also leave the e8-rook a bit misplaced (it would be better on f8 to prepare ...f5). This is a very good explanation. It also shows what I think I am really starting to understand, i.e. that there are all so often small tactical operations that support positional aims in the opening. The ideas are pretty standard, though. ...Re8 is seen in many Spanish lines, and whenever White closes the center (with d5) in any opening with similar pawn structure, Black normally wants his rook on f8 to support ...f5, which gains space and can help undermining White's center.


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Zwischenzugzwang Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing & chess pubs! Posts: 380 Location: Zotzenbach Joined: 06/14/11 Gender:	Re: Non-critical KID line for White? Reply #37 - 04/03/12 at 06:33:11	Post Tools	Print Post
	Thank you, TN, for your clear explanation!

	What do people mean when they say "Chess is the pawn of the soul"?
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TN God Member Offline Posts: 3420 Joined: 11/07/08 Gender:	Re: Non-critical KID line for White? Reply #36 - 04/02/12 at 23:25:05	Post Tools	Print Post
	After 9...Qe7 10.0-0 Re8, 11.Rfe1 protects the e4-pawn indirectly by allowing 11...ed4 12.Nd4 Ne4? to be met with 12.Ne4 Qe4 13.Bf3 winning material. That's one reason why it's useful to place your rook behind the opponent's queen in many positions, even some closed ones. After 9...Qc7 10.0-0 Re8, Black's threat of 11...ed4 is a real one, so White plays 11.d5 to stop this threat and also leave the e8-rook a bit misplaced (it would be better on f8 to prepare ...f5).

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Zwischenzugzwang

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Re: Non-critical KID line for White?
Reply #35 - 04/02/12 at 16:10:45

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I'm trying to understand the position after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Be2 0-0 6.Bg5 Nbd7 7.Qd2 c6 8.Nf3 e5 9.Rd1 Qc7 10.0-0 Re8:

Here White normally plays 11.d5, whereas in the very similar position, but with 9...Qe7 instead of 9...Qc7, the better players seem to prefer 11.Rfe1. I wonder if that happens just by chance or if there's a particular reason for that? Can somebody help?

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Zwischenzugzwang

What do people mean when they say "Chess is the pawn of the soul"?

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kylemeister God Member Offline Posts: 4946 Location: USA Joined: 10/24/05	Re: Non-critical KID line for White? Reply #34 - 03/26/12 at 16:05:12	Post Tools	Print Post
	Regarding model games and closed kingsides, a game I'm always reminded of is Larsen-Hort from the San Antonio "fried chicken" tournament of 1972. (In the tournament book, Larsen's note at the end was something like, "He just couldn't stand to look at that bishop any longer.")


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Zwischenzugzwang Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing & chess pubs! Posts: 380 Location: Zotzenbach Joined: 06/14/11 Gender:	Re: Non-critical KID line for White? Reply #33 - 03/26/12 at 07:47:25	Post Tools	Print Post
	For those of you who are interested how it went on with my King's Indian experiences: Unfortunately, I had to leave the tournament half-way due to a serious cold, so I had only two games with White, a Grünfeld and a Noteboom (the latter was quite interesting: After some move order inaccuracies in the opening both sides had to sacrifice at one time or the other a queen, unfortunately I eventually lost ). But I might face the KID this Friday . Best regards, Zwischenzugzwang

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Seeley Senior Member Offline Posts: 352 Location: UK Joined: 04/03/10	Re: Non-critical KID line for White? Reply #32 - 02/27/12 at 18:18:37	Post Tools	Print Post
	Zwischenzugzwang wrote on 02/24/12 at 17:02:12: I'll go for the Averbakh...An additional "bonus" is provided by Chessexplained: The possibility of combining it with the "Pseudo"-Krasenkow 5.h3 and 6.Bg5. So in a second step that might be a nice variation to add to the Averbakh. Your observations here are very perceptive. My interest in the Averbakh stemmed from a spell of playing what you call the pseudo-Krasenkow, and then wondering if it might prove more flexible to precede 6.Bg5 with the developing and arguably less committal 5.Be2 instead of 5.h3. A number of the underlying ideas are the same, for example preparing the e3 square as a comfortable retreat for the dark-square bishop in case of ...h6 by preventing ...Ng4. Both systems are flexible and tend to contain Black's standard K-side counterplay, so I think you're absolutely right to see them as complementary. Good luck with them!


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Zwischenzugzwang Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing & chess pubs! Posts: 380 Location: Zotzenbach Joined: 06/14/11 Gender:	Re: Non-critical KID line for White? Reply #31 - 02/24/12 at 17:02:12	Post Tools	Print Post
	Seeley wrote on 02/17/12 at 20:57:02: Anyway, I hope this is of some help. Please do let us know what you decide in the end. I'll go for the Averbakh. "Formal" reasons are the statistics in White's favour and that Black has almost no deviations earlier on (except playing the Grünfeld, of course ). But after having gone through some of the theory, I like this sort of positions - not too open, not too closed, and a little tricky. I'm curious how it goes in my tournament - I'll have four or five games with White, so I might face the KI one or two times. So maybe I've found my "final" weapon against the KI! An additional "bonus" is provided by Chessexplained: The possibility of combining it with the "Pseudo"-Krasenkow 5.h3 and 6.Bg5. So in a second step that might be a nice variation to add to the Averbakh. Again, thank you all for your help! Best regards, Zwischenzugzwang

	What do people mean when they say "Chess is the pawn of the soul"?
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fling God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1591 Joined: 01/21/11 Gender:	Re: Non-critical KID line for White? Reply #30 - 02/21/12 at 21:40:28	Post Tools	Print Post
	The position in Bareev-Kasparov after move 14 reminds me of another I've seen discussed here at Chesspub recently, except that it was in a Fianchetto line IIRC


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ErictheRed God Member Offline USCF National Master Posts: 2533 Location: USA Joined: 10/02/05	Re: Non-critical KID line for White? Reply #29 - 02/21/12 at 20:46:49	Post Tools	Print Post
	Speaking of the Averbakh, this is somewhat of a model game for both sides: http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1070619. Bareev gives excellent commentary on this game in Dvoretsky's book Positional Play. The general themes and pawn structure are certainly applicable to many Saemisch positions and other variations as well; it's a good game showing some of White's main ideas (closing the Kingside to concentrate on the other wing) and how Black needs to play extremely dynamically to hold the balance. In my experience, even strong club players (2300ish) can't play these positions as Black very well; it's very hard to time the dynamic counterplay correctly, and if Black misses that one chance he can often end up in a strategically lost position. Of course strong club players rarely have the strategic skills of a Karpov, but White has such a big space advantage and Black a bad Bishop that you don't really need them.


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Chessexplained Junior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 93 Location: Duisburg, Germany Joined: 02/03/12 Gender:	Re: Non-critical KID line for White? Reply #28 - 02/21/12 at 14:01:44	Post Tools	Print Post
	I'll throw even another line in the mix: 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.h3 0-0 6.Bg5 This flexible line sort of combines the ideas of the h3 (a la Krasenkov) and Averbakh, but does not commit the bishop early to e2. This comes in handy in case Black goes for c5, as it just transposes to a Benoni setup very similar to the Modern Main line. On ...e5 by black you have the flexibility to operate with g4 or just handle black's coming f5 with the exf gxf f4 approach. The line scores rather well and a study of games might be sufficient to play it. You'll find that it is used by a number of strong players as sort of a 'backup' line to their main line system. That said, I also like the Averbakh a lot, as it really is completely out of fashion, but quite dangerous strategically if black doesn't know exactly what he is doing.


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fling God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1591 Joined: 01/21/11 Gender:	Re: Non-critical KID line for White? Reply #27 - 02/21/12 at 07:31:03	Post Tools	Print Post
	ErictheRed wrote on 02/21/12 at 04:03:01: Zwischenzugzwang wrote on 02/19/12 at 21:49:36: Quote: My philosophy is to play main lines, but not necessarily MAIN main lines. (...) So pick a sub-line that has been played a lot by top players, specialize in it, dive in and do the work. It might take a while but you'll be rewarded in the long run. That sounds like a good approach, and in some variations it's quite close to what I'm doing (or try to do). But as I indicated in my first post, I actually need something rather short term, the long term preparation against the KID has to wait. Well I don't see why you can't combine the two, that's the point. You pick a less-played variation so that you can start playing it without much theory and eventually specialize in it. If you're considering the Averbakh, I would think of that as within my philosophy of a main line, but not a MAIN main line. It's certainly no quick fix! Ooh, I just thought of 5.Nge2, it's a decent line that might transpose to the Saemisch but has some independent points, that's another area you might look. I like this approach, and it is kinda what e.g. Greet uses for the Ruy Lopez in his book. Another point, also mentioned by saubikhr, is that some KID lines can be used against the Benoni too, since ther are lots of transpositions, as in the Sämisch, Four Pawns Attac and Nge2-lines. This might be a time saver for you.


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ErictheRed God Member Offline USCF National Master Posts: 2533 Location: USA Joined: 10/02/05	Re: Non-critical KID line for White? Reply #26 - 02/21/12 at 04:03:01	Post Tools	Print Post
	Zwischenzugzwang wrote on 02/19/12 at 21:49:36: Quote: My philosophy is to play main lines, but not necessarily MAIN main lines. (...) So pick a sub-line that has been played a lot by top players, specialize in it, dive in and do the work. It might take a while but you'll be rewarded in the long run. That sounds like a good approach, and in some variations it's quite close to what I'm doing (or try to do). But as I indicated in my first post, I actually need something rather short term, the long term preparation against the KID has to wait. Well I don't see why you can't combine the two, that's the point. You pick a less-played variation so that you can start playing it without much theory and eventually specialize in it. If you're considering the Averbakh, I would think of that as within my philosophy of a main line, but not a MAIN main line. It's certainly no quick fix! Ooh, I just thought of 5.Nge2, it's a decent line that might transpose to the Saemisch but has some independent points, that's another area you might look.


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Zwischenzugzwang Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing & chess pubs! Posts: 380 Location: Zotzenbach Joined: 06/14/11 Gender:	Re: Non-critical KID line for White? Reply #25 - 02/19/12 at 21:49:36	Post Tools	Print Post
	Once again thanks for your recommendations and for sharing your personal insights! Seeley, you're quite a good advocate for the Averbakh, I think! But anyway, I will wait until tomorrow when I'll get the "Dangerous Weapons" before I make a decision. saubhikr wrote on 02/18/12 at 04:12:03: What do you play as black against 1.d4? It may play a role. If you play Benoni, then four pawn attack is a good option as you will have the familiarity to the pawn structures. I play the Nimzo-Indian, mostly with an early b7-b6, so that's not of great help. O.k., in some variations there's an early c7-c5, e.g. the Rubinstein Romanishin-Psakhis and in some variations of the Classical with 4...0-0, but I don't meet those variations so often. Quote: My philosophy is to play main lines, but not necessarily MAIN main lines. (...) So pick a sub-line that has been played a lot by top players, specialize in it, dive in and do the work. It might take a while but you'll be rewarded in the long run. That sounds like a good approach, and in some variations it's quite close to what I'm doing (or try to do). But as I indicated in my first post, I actually need something rather short term, the long term preparation against the KID has to wait. My thanks also to everybody not explicitly mentioned in this short post, have a nice Sunday evening! Best regards, Zwischenzugzwang

	What do people mean when they say "Chess is the pawn of the soul"?
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