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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!? (Read 56668 times)
Markovich
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #86 - 03/23/12 at 12:00:16
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Amen.  And since, in the Great Philidor Gambit Debate, the Affirmative refuses to offer evidence, I declare the Negative the winner -- notwithstanding that I have been upholding it.

In fact, so long as I am the monitor of this part of the board, anything posted on the subject of this gambit without being a serious attempt to prove Black's chances will be summarily deleted. 

Well, since someone took that to be a total supprssion of any conversation about this gambit, let me make it clear that anything serious that anyone has to say about this gambit will be accepted.  "See West's website" is going to be suppressed, however.
« Last Edit: 03/24/12 at 12:55:54 by Markovich »  

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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #85 - 03/23/12 at 09:46:12
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Use of such openings in serious games clearly demonstrates a lack of chess culture, erudition and general understanding.

3...Nf6 and 3...exd4 are the only correct moves.

  

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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #84 - 03/23/12 at 08:51:42
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Chessexplained wrote on 03/23/12 at 07:01:34:
SWJediknight wrote on 03/23/12 at 00:02:10:
Trouble is I don't find the above response "convincing".  I would need to see some analysis (AMM's sort of approach) as to why White isn't just better here, with the majority of the practical chances as well as a theoretical advantage.   AMM has put forward some reasonable tries for Black but in post #68 admitted that they probably fall short.


You may wait for any serious analysis from "Gambit" until hell freezes over. This is just an advertising thread for a book and website that promotes an incorrect opening, it's not meant to actually analyze chess content.

The underlined part is true. The later part pure speculation trying to put a meaning into something out of the category "shit happens".

Back to topic. My summary:
After 4. Bc4
a) fxe4 5. Nxe5
b) b5 5. Bb3
c) Nc6 5. Nc3
each move with white advantage.

Does an average player need more? (If yes - what's it?)

That a white player is able to blunder maybe enough reason for some to play this with black. So what?
  

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Chessexplained
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #83 - 03/23/12 at 07:01:34
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SWJediknight wrote on 03/23/12 at 00:02:10:
Trouble is I don't find the above response "convincing".  I would need to see some analysis (AMM's sort of approach) as to why White isn't just better here, with the majority of the practical chances as well as a theoretical advantage.   AMM has put forward some reasonable tries for Black but in post #68 admitted that they probably fall short.


You may wait for any serious analysis from "Gambit" until hell freezes over. This is just an advertising thread for a book and website that promotes an incorrect opening, it's not meant to actually analyze chess content.
  
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Gambit
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #82 - 03/23/12 at 06:34:20
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Yes, I suggest you go to Jim West's website. He defeated GM Maurice Ashley with the Philidor Counter-Gambit in 2002.

Go to Jim West on Chess. Type in Maurice Ashley. The game should come up.
  
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SWJediknight
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #81 - 03/23/12 at 00:02:10
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Trouble is I don't find the above response "convincing".  I would need to see some analysis (AMM's sort of approach) as to why White isn't just better here, with the majority of the practical chances as well as a theoretical advantage.   AMM has put forward some reasonable tries for Black but in post #68 admitted that they probably fall short.
  
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ghenghisclown
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #80 - 03/22/12 at 22:41:17
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Is there a game we can look at where a GM lost against this opening?
  

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Gambit
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #79 - 03/22/12 at 15:25:24
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See my previous post.
  
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #78 - 03/22/12 at 14:05:03
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I am still yet to see a convincing response to Markovich's suggestion of (4.Bc4 Nc6) 5.Nc3 Nf6 6.Ng5.  I looked more closely at it earlier in the thread and my impression that it gave exactly the sort of positions that White is hoping for when essaying the Scotch Gambit (normally reached after 2...Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Bc4) and without having to sacrifice a pawn.

On the other hand, now I know that if I am playing Lev in a game then an approach involving 1.e4, 2.Nf3 and 3.d4 suggests itself as a way to get good tactical chances right out of the opening.
  
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Gambit
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #77 - 03/22/12 at 05:07:26
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You want fresh analyses on 4 Bc4 Nc6 go to West's site and do some searching for games. I do believe I posted some lines earlier.

Some lines go 4 Bc4 Nc6 5 Ng5 Nh6. Others involve 4 Bc4 Nc6 5 Nc3 Nf6 6 Ng5 and are incredibly complicated.
West tells me that Black sacrifices the Rh8 for two pawns, a lead in development and a trapped White Knight. We actually analyzed it, but I cannot recreate the analyses right now.

Please cut that "poor Lev" crap. Were this a real OTB tournament game, I have no doubt that I would beat my opponent. After all, I know the theory of the Newark Gambit, while my opponents do not.

Grin Cheesy Wink Grin
  
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #76 - 03/22/12 at 00:53:02
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Poor Lev is being so badly beaten up here, closing this thread would be a mercy to him. Post fresh analysis here if you have it Lev, since I will summarily delete mere opinion and noncritical examples from your play.
  

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Gambit
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #75 - 03/21/12 at 23:04:20
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How about posting the complete gamescore of Badouin - Dominici?

You say that 5 Bxb5+ is the worst answer to the Newark Gambit, but that is not true. The two worst answers are 5 Ba6?? and 5 Bd3?!. As for why you play 5 Bxb5+ , the answer is that a gambit needs to be accepted in order to be refuted.

I have played against 5 Bxg8 Rxg8 and drawn or won against it. Sure, I lost a few games before I found a critical move that revitalized the variation for Black.

I will keep playing the Newark Gambit.
  
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #74 - 03/21/12 at 20:18:18
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Gambit wrote on 03/21/12 at 05:16:49:
I played against 5 Bb3 on the chess.com website. My correspondence game can be found on Jim West's website, Jim West On Chess. There, I show how to play against 5 Bb3.

A gambit's refutation lies in its acceptance, Bobby Fischer once said. So, AMM, I do not understand why you refuse to play 5 Bxb5+ .



Gambit, I don't know why I should capture on 'b5' ( 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 f5 4.Bc4 b5?! ) when I think this is the worst answer to 4..b5?!. Even 5.Bxg8 Rxg8 can give White adventage:

a) 6.Qe2!?
b) 6.exf5 Bxf5 ( 6..e4 7.Qe2 Qe7 8.Ng5 etc. Baudoin-Dominici, 1993 ) 7.Qe2 etc. several games
c) 6.dxe5 dxe5 7.Qe2 Bd6 8.0-0 Ba6? ( Mangion-Zilbermints, 2011) 9.exf5 b4 10.Qe4

In 2006 Michael Goeller asked to the community what is the best Black move against 4.Bc4. In the  games where Jim West himself played Black against the line, he chose 4..Nc6 which suggests that he does not fully trust the standards 4…exd4 or 4..fxe4 ( 4..b5 was not known yet ): I've tons of West games, and Always play 4..Nc6, so then we should consider this move as relatively best one.

If Markovich believes 5.Nc3 etc. is simplest we must continue the analysis at this point. Of course, this seems more relevant than Black resources on 5.dxe5 and 5.Ng5
  
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #73 - 03/21/12 at 17:03:35
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Gambit wrote on 03/21/12 at 16:27:45:
West gives good analyses and games. I recommend you google his website and spend some time checking out the games. You will find the answers there.


Well, I tried to find something no the site, but I didn't. The nature of this site is not exactly helpful, but I tried. The simple lines mentioned by me (and others before) didn't turn up in my searches or if they did, there was no serious analysis. For instance there are games on 4.Bc4 Nc6 5.dxe5, but why on earth would white want to exchange queens?
Either you show what is supposed to be on that site or I suggest you stop this book and website promotion stunt.
  
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #72 - 03/21/12 at 16:55:08
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What I don't understand is why a dangerous tactician and an experienced BDG-player like LDZ would defend black's side after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 f5 4.Bc4, when White gets a lead in development and lots of activity for free.
If Black plays like that against the BDG then LDZ is the fastest to show a hyper-aggressive and clever refutation.
No matter how much I like to tease LDZ, this time I am completely serious, exactly because I respect LDZ as a daring attacking player very much. After 4.Bc4 it's White who does the attacking and LDZ tries to defend? Shoot me.
  

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