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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!? (Read 64411 times)
Markovich
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #86 - 03/23/12 at 12:00:16
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Amen.  And since, in the Great Philidor Gambit Debate, the Affirmative refuses to offer evidence, I declare the Negative the winner -- notwithstanding that I have been upholding it.

In fact, so long as I am the monitor of this part of the board, anything posted on the subject of this gambit without being a serious attempt to prove Black's chances will be summarily deleted. 

Well, since someone took that to be a total supprssion of any conversation about this gambit, let me make it clear that anything serious that anyone has to say about this gambit will be accepted.  "See West's website" is going to be suppressed, however.
« Last Edit: 03/24/12 at 12:55:54 by Markovich »  

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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #85 - 03/23/12 at 09:46:12
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Use of such openings in serious games clearly demonstrates a lack of chess culture, erudition and general understanding.

3...Nf6 and 3...exd4 are the only correct moves.

  

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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #84 - 03/23/12 at 08:51:42
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Chessexplained wrote on 03/23/12 at 07:01:34:
SWJediknight wrote on 03/23/12 at 00:02:10:
Trouble is I don't find the above response "convincing".  I would need to see some analysis (AMM's sort of approach) as to why White isn't just better here, with the majority of the practical chances as well as a theoretical advantage.   AMM has put forward some reasonable tries for Black but in post #68 admitted that they probably fall short.


You may wait for any serious analysis from "Gambit" until hell freezes over. This is just an advertising thread for a book and website that promotes an incorrect opening, it's not meant to actually analyze chess content.

The underlined part is true. The later part pure speculation trying to put a meaning into something out of the category "shit happens".

Back to topic. My summary:
After 4. Bc4
a) fxe4 5. Nxe5
b) b5 5. Bb3
c) Nc6 5. Nc3
each move with white advantage.

Does an average player need more? (If yes - what's it?)

That a white player is able to blunder maybe enough reason for some to play this with black. So what?
  

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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #83 - 03/23/12 at 07:01:34
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SWJediknight wrote on 03/23/12 at 00:02:10:
Trouble is I don't find the above response "convincing".  I would need to see some analysis (AMM's sort of approach) as to why White isn't just better here, with the majority of the practical chances as well as a theoretical advantage.   AMM has put forward some reasonable tries for Black but in post #68 admitted that they probably fall short.


You may wait for any serious analysis from "Gambit" until hell freezes over. This is just an advertising thread for a book and website that promotes an incorrect opening, it's not meant to actually analyze chess content.
  
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #82 - 03/23/12 at 06:34:20
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Yes, I suggest you go to Jim West's website. He defeated GM Maurice Ashley with the Philidor Counter-Gambit in 2002.

Go to Jim West on Chess. Type in Maurice Ashley. The game should come up.
  
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #81 - 03/23/12 at 00:02:10
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Trouble is I don't find the above response "convincing".  I would need to see some analysis (AMM's sort of approach) as to why White isn't just better here, with the majority of the practical chances as well as a theoretical advantage.   AMM has put forward some reasonable tries for Black but in post #68 admitted that they probably fall short.
  
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #80 - 03/22/12 at 22:41:17
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Is there a game we can look at where a GM lost against this opening?
  

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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #79 - 03/22/12 at 15:25:24
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See my previous post.
  
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #78 - 03/22/12 at 14:05:03
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I am still yet to see a convincing response to Markovich's suggestion of (4.Bc4 Nc6) 5.Nc3 Nf6 6.Ng5.  I looked more closely at it earlier in the thread and my impression that it gave exactly the sort of positions that White is hoping for when essaying the Scotch Gambit (normally reached after 2...Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Bc4) and without having to sacrifice a pawn.

On the other hand, now I know that if I am playing Lev in a game then an approach involving 1.e4, 2.Nf3 and 3.d4 suggests itself as a way to get good tactical chances right out of the opening.
  
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #77 - 03/22/12 at 05:07:26
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You want fresh analyses on 4 Bc4 Nc6 go to West's site and do some searching for games. I do believe I posted some lines earlier.

Some lines go 4 Bc4 Nc6 5 Ng5 Nh6. Others involve 4 Bc4 Nc6 5 Nc3 Nf6 6 Ng5 and are incredibly complicated.
West tells me that Black sacrifices the Rh8 for two pawns, a lead in development and a trapped White Knight. We actually analyzed it, but I cannot recreate the analyses right now.

Please cut that "poor Lev" crap. Were this a real OTB tournament game, I have no doubt that I would beat my opponent. After all, I know the theory of the Newark Gambit, while my opponents do not.

Grin Cheesy Wink Grin
  
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #76 - 03/22/12 at 00:53:02
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Poor Lev is being so badly beaten up here, closing this thread would be a mercy to him. Post fresh analysis here if you have it Lev, since I will summarily delete mere opinion and noncritical examples from your play.
  

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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #75 - 03/21/12 at 23:04:20
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How about posting the complete gamescore of Badouin - Dominici?

You say that 5 Bxb5+ is the worst answer to the Newark Gambit, but that is not true. The two worst answers are 5 Ba6?? and 5 Bd3?!. As for why you play 5 Bxb5+ , the answer is that a gambit needs to be accepted in order to be refuted.

I have played against 5 Bxg8 Rxg8 and drawn or won against it. Sure, I lost a few games before I found a critical move that revitalized the variation for Black.

I will keep playing the Newark Gambit.
  
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #74 - 03/21/12 at 20:18:18
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Gambit wrote on 03/21/12 at 05:16:49:
I played against 5 Bb3 on the chess.com website. My correspondence game can be found on Jim West's website, Jim West On Chess. There, I show how to play against 5 Bb3.

A gambit's refutation lies in its acceptance, Bobby Fischer once said. So, AMM, I do not understand why you refuse to play 5 Bxb5+ .



Gambit, I don't know why I should capture on 'b5' ( 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 f5 4.Bc4 b5?! ) when I think this is the worst answer to 4..b5?!. Even 5.Bxg8 Rxg8 can give White adventage:

a) 6.Qe2!?
b) 6.exf5 Bxf5 ( 6..e4 7.Qe2 Qe7 8.Ng5 etc. Baudoin-Dominici, 1993 ) 7.Qe2 etc. several games
c) 6.dxe5 dxe5 7.Qe2 Bd6 8.0-0 Ba6? ( Mangion-Zilbermints, 2011) 9.exf5 b4 10.Qe4

In 2006 Michael Goeller asked to the community what is the best Black move against 4.Bc4. In the  games where Jim West himself played Black against the line, he chose 4..Nc6 which suggests that he does not fully trust the standards 4…exd4 or 4..fxe4 ( 4..b5 was not known yet ): I've tons of West games, and Always play 4..Nc6, so then we should consider this move as relatively best one.

If Markovich believes 5.Nc3 etc. is simplest we must continue the analysis at this point. Of course, this seems more relevant than Black resources on 5.dxe5 and 5.Ng5
  
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #73 - 03/21/12 at 17:03:35
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Gambit wrote on 03/21/12 at 16:27:45:
West gives good analyses and games. I recommend you google his website and spend some time checking out the games. You will find the answers there.


Well, I tried to find something no the site, but I didn't. The nature of this site is not exactly helpful, but I tried. The simple lines mentioned by me (and others before) didn't turn up in my searches or if they did, there was no serious analysis. For instance there are games on 4.Bc4 Nc6 5.dxe5, but why on earth would white want to exchange queens?
Either you show what is supposed to be on that site or I suggest you stop this book and website promotion stunt.
  
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #72 - 03/21/12 at 16:55:08
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What I don't understand is why a dangerous tactician and an experienced BDG-player like LDZ would defend black's side after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 f5 4.Bc4, when White gets a lead in development and lots of activity for free.
If Black plays like that against the BDG then LDZ is the fastest to show a hyper-aggressive and clever refutation.
No matter how much I like to tease LDZ, this time I am completely serious, exactly because I respect LDZ as a daring attacking player very much. After 4.Bc4 it's White who does the attacking and LDZ tries to defend? Shoot me.
  

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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #71 - 03/21/12 at 16:27:45
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West gives good analyses and games. I recommend you google his website and spend some time checking out the games. You will find the answers there.
  
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #70 - 03/21/12 at 16:05:01
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Gambit wrote on 03/21/12 at 15:40:52:
I posted my responses against 5 Nc3 earlier in this thread.


Yeah, you give 5...Nf6, which after 6.Ng5 just leaves white with a clear advantage/winning position. 5... exd4 also seems clearly better for white. Frankly speaking, opening up a position with no development and a weak king is just awful - and this is just what this line does.
  
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #69 - 03/21/12 at 15:40:52
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I have to run to school, but let me point something out here. After 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 f5 4 Bc4 Black can play 4...Nc6, transposing to the Rousseau Gambit. Now, if you want to do your research, I suggest you check out my earlier posts on this. I posted my responses against 5 Nc3 earlier in this thread.

Finally, check Jim West's website. It has the games you need. Just type in the moves in the Search function and hit Enter.
« Last Edit: 03/21/12 at 23:03:11 by Gambit »  
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #68 - 03/21/12 at 14:51:28
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Markovich wrote on 03/21/12 at 11:30:09:
Gambit wrote on 03/21/12 at 05:16:49:
I played against 5 Bb3 on the chess.com website. My correspondence game can be found on Jim West's website, Jim West On Chess. There, I show how to play against 5 Bb3.

A gambit's refutation lies in its acceptance, Bobby Fischer once said. So, AMM, I do not understand why you refuse to play 5 Bxb5+ .


Would you please be good enough to provide a link?  That site has a huge archive and there is no obvious way to find your game.

P.S. I found Simmons - Zilbermintz, but its 5.Bb3 fxe4 6.Nxe5 is not critical.  Do you have something against 6.Nc3?


In 2001 our ChessPubDirector Tony Kosten wrote a book titled "The Latvian gambit lives !".

In 2012 we should write another article titled "Can PCG survive ?". If after below anwers, all depends on Newark's 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 f5 4.Bc4 b5?! we are walking in a wrong way. By the way, the same position arises from a known Latvian gambit line: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Bc4 b5?! ( Strautins' move ) 4.Bb3! d6 5.d4. and most of the noted games goes from this trasposition

So, after Newark-Zilbermints gambit order, White plays 5.Bb3! and now I'll repeat my answer:

      - 5..h6? 6.dxe5 Ne7 7.Nh4! Qd7? 8.e6 Fiorito-Alloin, 1983

      - 5..Nf6?! 6.dxe5 Nxe4? 7.Qd5 +- Ouwerkerk-Zagt, 1982

      - 5..exd4?! 6.Nxd4 fxe4? 7.Qh5+ +- Janssen-Boll, 1975
 
      - 5..Nc6?! 6.dxe5 ( or 6.Ng5!? ) 6..Nxe5?? ( 6..dxe5 7.Bd5! ) Niemand-Purins, 1983; now 7.Bxg8! and 8.Qd5 +-

      - 5..fxe4:

                   - 6.0-0 c6 7.Ne5 ( 7.Ng5?! d5 8.Nc3 ) 7..dxe5 8.Qh5+ Kd7 8.dxe5 perhaps is favourable for White, but less clear than following below lines ( Atars-Gasser, 1969 and Diepstraten-Druke, 1990 )
 
                   - 6.Nxe5 dxe5 7.Qh5+ Kd7 ( 7..g6?? 8.Qxe5+ Qe7 9.Qxh8 +- Dinu- Popescu, 1995 ) 8.dxe5 ( 8.Qf5+?! Kc6 9.Qxe4+ Kb6 DePalma-Zilbermintz, 2011 and Simmons-Zilbermintz, 2012 or 8.Qxe5 Bd6 Hebrard-Jester, 1987 are not so good ) 8..Kc6 (!?) 9.Qe2 Bc5 10.a4 with some preasure, but Black still defends !
   
                   - 6.Ng5!? d5 ( 6..Nh6 7.Nxe4 Bf5 8.Qf3 d5 9.Nec3 ) 7.dxe5 c6 and now instead 8.e6 ( Schild-Bullockus, 1979 ) 8..Nf6 9.Nf7 Qc7 10.Nxh8 Bxe6 11.Nc3 Nbd7 or several games where first player played 8.0-0, best seems 8.Nc3 Bb6 9.e6! or even 8.Nxe4!? of Strelis-Alberts, 1979
                          
                   - 6.dxe5!? ( you could analyze many ways )

                   - 6.Cc3! - pointed by Markovich - and all moves are bad; f.i. - 6..Qd7? ( 6..Nf6 7.dxe5 ) 7.Ng5 Nh6 8.Be6 Courthiau-Simonet, 1982, but other Black 6th. moves are weak too


Summarizing: we have to find another better move as Black instead of this ones, but I've seen rest of 4th. moves are also dfficult ...      

  
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #67 - 03/21/12 at 14:33:10
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I am pretty amazed this thread keeps going on. That 4...b5 move on Bc4 is just unplayable after 5.Bb3, what's the point here? The only question is whether White just has a clear advantage or is already winning, like Houdini suggests. By the way, a comp assessment of +1.6 in an open position for the side with the development advantage is pretty reliable. You don't really need a computer to come to that conclusion, but maybe that helps to end this discussion on 4...b5?.
That leaves 4... Nc6, right? What do you play against 5.Nc3? Somewhere here I saw 5... Be7 suggested. After that just dxe5 and Qe2 and I don't see how you hold the centre or get the King to safety. It's maybe not downright lost like 4...b5, but why would anyone want to play such a position?
  
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #66 - 03/21/12 at 11:30:09
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Gambit wrote on 03/21/12 at 05:16:49:
I played against 5 Bb3 on the chess.com website. My correspondence game can be found on Jim West's website, Jim West On Chess. There, I show how to play against 5 Bb3.

A gambit's refutation lies in its acceptance, Bobby Fischer once said. So, AMM, I do not understand why you refuse to play 5 Bxb5+ .


Would you please be good enough to provide a link?  That site has a huge archive and there is no obvious way to find your game.

P.S. I found Simmons - Zilbermintz, but its 5.Bb3 fxe4 6.Nxe5 is not critical.  Do you have something against 6.Nc3?
  

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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #65 - 03/21/12 at 05:16:49
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I played against 5 Bb3 on the chess.com website. My correspondence game can be found on Jim West's website, Jim West On Chess. There, I show how to play against 5 Bb3.

A gambit's refutation lies in its acceptance, Bobby Fischer once said. So, AMM, I do not understand why you refuse to play 5 Bxb5+ .
  
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #64 - 03/19/12 at 21:33:31
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Gambit wrote on 03/19/12 at 19:51:37:
It is well-known that 4...fxe4 is a very bad move. Perhaps Lasker wanted to illustrate that in his Manual. No, the best counters are 4...Nc6 and 4...b5!?



Yes, indeed Jupp53; 4..fxe4? is a bad move. Also after 4..exd4 5.Ng5 Nh6 6.0-0 f4 (!?) Markovich suggest 7.Bxf4 Qf6 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.c3!.

If 4..Nc6 5.Nc3 Be7 ( 5..fxe4? 6.Ng5 Nh6 7.d5; 5..Nf6?! 6.Ng5 ) 6.Bd5 Nf6 7.Bxc6+ bxc6 8.dxe5 Nxe4 9.Qd3 d5 10.0-0 0-0 11.Bf4. All this is known not sufficient from long time ago

So 4..Nf6?! and 4..Be7? are weak too, ...

Gambit suggested Newark gambit 4..b5!? ( ?! ) as last refuge, but you should to read long http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1313467158/all to know if Philidor Countergambit is still playable. Personally I tnink 5.Bb3! is strong, but all this has been posted in above discussion.
  
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #63 - 03/19/12 at 19:51:37
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It is well-known that 4...fxe4 is a very bad move. Perhaps Lasker wanted to illustrate that in his Manual. No, the best counters are 4...Nc6 and 4...b5!?
  
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #62 - 03/19/12 at 17:41:14
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Gambit wrote on 03/02/12 at 21:56:00:
It took NM James West to point out just how to play the f5 - Philidor properly. I bet that some players screwed up playing f5, and their defeats got mentioned in Lasker's Manual.

Which line do you consider critical, Jupp?


Beg your pardon for answering late. My copy of Lasker's Manual has been disappeared and just refound it.

Personally: It's not of interest what an Elo 1900+ player thinks about this line. So it's Lasker's line to be given here (with a translation of some comments).

1. e4 e5
2. Nf3 d6
3. d4 f5 (A bold reply to remove the pawn e4.)
4. Bc4 (This way white limits the white king and aims at the difficult to protect point f7.)
4. .. fxe4
5. Nxe5 dxe5
6. Qh5+ Kd7
7. Qf5+ Kc6
8. Qxe5 (With many threats. Black will not be able to secure his king without important losses.)
*
Lasker gives a line after 8. .. a6 9. Be3.

This seems sufficient. In 50+ years never meeting this line the (known) motive Nxe5 -> Qh5+ and looking for attacking chances seems enough. Someone preparing this with black in my chess surroundings for serious games will be known soon and it's time to prepare it then. And to care about games with less than 15 min. time is spoiled energy imo.
  

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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #61 - 03/14/12 at 05:12:29
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6...f4 7.Bxf4 Qf6 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.c3 appears to me to be quite good for White.
  

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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #60 - 03/14/12 at 04:13:13
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I think that 5.Nc3 is much better than 5.dxe5
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 f5 4.exf5 Bxf5 5.Nc3! (5.dxe5)

AMM wrote on 03/14/12 at 00:29:50:
Maybe 4..Bxf5 5.dxe5 Nc6!? is also possible and tested by I myself !?
  
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #59 - 03/14/12 at 00:29:50
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Chessexplained wrote on 03/13/12 at 23:19:28:
kevinfat wrote on 03/13/12 at 22:40:56:
The move 6..Nh6 is no good. Best for black is
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 f5 4. dxe5 fxe4 5. Ng5 d5 6. e6 Bc5!


Isn't 7.Nxe4 just better for white?


All this ( and much more ) was pointed by myself in other ancient forum.

Is largely analyzed on "Winning with the Philidor" (Kosten, 1992), "The Philidor Countergambit" (West, 1996) and “Survive & Beat annoying chess openings –The open games-“ (Schiller and Watson, 2003). Is one of the best replies against Philidor Countergambit, but rather complicated. Essentially the whole variation is quite well analyzed even in the Bilguer (!) Bible of past century and some of the model old games are already valid at present.

Relatively best move is 6..Nh6 but as it has pointed by Vass plan 7.g3 and 8.Bh3 is a hard knock.

In this matter, 6..Bc5 is certainly answered with 7.Nxe4:

7..Be7 8.Qg4 ( 8.Ng5!? Kosten, 8..Bxg5 – 8..Qd6!? - 9.Qh5+ g6 10.Qg5 West, and now I would suggest 10..Nf6!? 11.Bd3 Bxe6 12.0-0 0-0 13.Re1 Qd7 13.b3 with a small pressure ) 8..g6 9.Ng5 Nf6 ( 9..Nh6 10.Qh4 Bf8 West “The Dynamic Philidor Countergambit” page 43, and now I suggest 11.Qd4 Rg8 12.Nc3 c6 13.Bd3 White advantage ) 10.Qa4+ c6 11.Nf7 Qb6 12.Nxh8 Ne4 13.f3 Bh4+ 14.Kd1 Qf2 15.Be2 Qxg2 16.Rf1 and now I don’t understand 16..Nf2+ 17. Kd2 Bf6 1/2 - 1/2  ( draw !!) in Geenen-Henris, Belgium Ch.,1995 so if 18.Ke1! Nh3 19.Nf7 Qxh2 20.Qg4  Na6 21.Nd6+ and White wins with his extra Rook !; also if f.i. 16..Qg5+ 17.f4 Qg2 18.Nc3 Bxe6 19.Qd4 +-. James West in a very long analysis ( page 42 ) with 16..Bxe6 claims Black compensation after: 17.Be3 Nd7 18.Nd2 ( 18.Nf7! Bxf7 19.fxe4 avoiding ..Bg4 as in 18.fxe4 Bg4! is best even !?, analysis ) 18..Nf2+ 19.Kc1 Ng4 20.fxg4 Qxe2 21.Qf4 0-0-0 ( with compensation, West ), but I don’t see any counter play after 22.Qf3! Qxf3 ( if not 23.Nf7 ) 23.Nxf3 Bf6 24.Bg5.

Anyway as many of our readers, I continue thinking 4.exf5 is the most simple way to find the 'refutation' and the unique playable continuation as Black 4..e4 5.Ng5 Bxf5 6.Nc3 ( 6.f3 Be7! ) 6..d5 7.f3 e3!? wild play, but few more can get second player. Maybe 4..Bxf5 5.dxe5 Nc6!? is also possible and tested by I myself !?
  
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #58 - 03/13/12 at 23:39:04
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1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 f5 4.dxe5 fxe4 5.Ng5 d5 6.e6 Bc5 7.Nxe4 Bb4
and white probably has an edge, but its the smallest that black can get it down.

Chessexplained wrote on 03/13/12 at 23:19:28:
kevinfat wrote on 03/13/12 at 22:40:56:
The move 6..Nh6 is no good. Best for black is
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 f5 4. dxe5 fxe4 5. Ng5 d5 6. e6 Bc5!


Isn't 7.Nxe4 just better for white?
  
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #57 - 03/13/12 at 23:19:28
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kevinfat wrote on 03/13/12 at 22:40:56:
The move 6..Nh6 is no good. Best for black is
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 f5 4. dxe5 fxe4 5. Ng5 d5 6. e6 Bc5!


Isn't 7.Nxe4 just better for white?
  
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #56 - 03/13/12 at 22:40:56
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The move 6..Nh6 is no good. Best for black is
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 f5 4. dxe5 fxe4 5. Ng5 d5 6. e6 Bc5!

Vass wrote on 03/13/12 at 09:39:16:
As a first player I would go for:

This is the game George Atwood - J.Bruhl 0-1, London 1801 where Atwood played 10. f4?! on 9...Nc7?!
Instead, on 9...Nc7 10.c4! is giving some good chances for a win. Another try can be 9...Nc5, but after 10.c4 Nd3 11. Nc3! white is close to winning.. At last, 9...g6, can be met by 10.c4! Be7 11. Nxe4! and I think white is way better..
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think white is close to win in every sub-variation after 7.g3! and 8.Bh3!  Cool
  
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #55 - 03/13/12 at 20:38:59
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That is really contemporary theory, citing a game from the 18th century! West, in his book, gives the same game, but the date is 1796, not 1801!
  
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #54 - 03/13/12 at 09:39:16
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As a first player I would go for:

This is the game George Atwood - J.Bruhl 0-1, London 1801 where Atwood played 10. f4?! on 9...Nc7?!
Instead, on 9...Nc7 10.c4! is giving some good chances for a win. Another try can be 9...Nc5, but after 10.c4 Nd3 11. Nc3! white is close to winning.. At last, 9...g6, can be met by 10.c4! Be7 11. Nxe4! and I think white is way better..
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think white is close to win in every sub-variation after 7.g3! and 8.Bh3!  Cool
  
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #53 - 03/13/12 at 08:09:20
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Are you sure white has to play 6.0-0
Why not 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 f5 4.Bc4 exd4 5.Ng5 Nh6 6.exf5 Bxf5 7.0-0
This looks very bad for black. I think best for black is
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 f5 4.Bc4 Nc6
and now Bb5 is not an option showing that the move 4.Bc4 is in a sense premature since its not clear what the best square for the bishop is.

I still think that 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 f5 4.exf5 is best for white.

AMM wrote on 03/13/12 at 00:12:30:
SWJediknight wrote on 03/12/12 at 19:50:36:
Instinctively I distrust 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 f5 4.Bc4 exd4 as it is reminiscent of a Scotch Gambit (where ...f7-f5 is rarely one of Black's better moves except in certain lines where Black gets ...Nxe4 in).  5.Ng5 Nh6 6.0-0 f4!? might well be Black's best chance in this variation but 7.Bxf4 Qf6 8.Qd2 still looks very good for White. 


As I've pointed below, this line seems one of the best resources as Black pieces: After 6..f4!? ( second player must keep the e-file closed ) 7.Bxf4 Qf6 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.Re1 ( 9.Bb5 Laine-Andrasiunas, cr. ICCF, 2007 ) 9..Ne5 ( 9..Be7!? Mechkarov, I know three games, but f.i. 10.c3 Ng4! unclear; another possibility is 9..Bd7 ) 10.Be2 ( 10.Bb3!? Be7 11.h4 ) 10..Be7! ( Kosten; but not 10..Bg4?! 11.f3 Bd7 12.Bg3 0-0-0 13.f4 of Parhalis-Arhipkin, USSR, 1975 ) and now:

a) 11.Na3?! 0-0 12.g3? ( better 12.Bxe5 dxe5 according English GM ) 12..Ng6 with Black advantage Hall-West, USA, 1993 ( or 12..c6 Kessler-Schultz, cr. email, 2004 )

b) 11.Nf3 Nxf3+ 12.Bxf3 Nf7! with idea ..0-0 and ...Ne5, or even, in some cases, ...g5 and ...h5 catching a bishop. In this way Black won a game Ali Bin-Ismail, Moskow ol., 1994; 0-1, 45

Maybe "our" Director GM Tony Kosten should to say anything about all this ? ....  (!!)
  
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #52 - 03/13/12 at 00:12:30
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SWJediknight wrote on 03/12/12 at 19:50:36:
Instinctively I distrust 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 f5 4.Bc4 exd4 as it is reminiscent of a Scotch Gambit (where ...f7-f5 is rarely one of Black's better moves except in certain lines where Black gets ...Nxe4 in).  5.Ng5 Nh6 6.0-0 f4!? might well be Black's best chance in this variation but 7.Bxf4 Qf6 8.Qd2 still looks very good for White. 


As I've pointed below, this line seems one of the best resources as Black pieces: After 6..f4!? ( second player must keep the e-file closed ) 7.Bxf4 Qf6 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.Re1 ( 9.Bb5 Laine-Andrasiunas, cr. ICCF, 2007 ) 9..Ne5 ( 9..Be7!? Mechkarov, I know three games, but f.i. 10.c3 Ng4! unclear; another possibility is 9..Bd7 ) 10.Be2 ( 10.Bb3!? Be7 11.h4 ) 10..Be7! ( Kosten; but not 10..Bg4?! 11.f3 Bd7 12.Bg3 0-0-0 13.f4 of Parhalis-Arhipkin, USSR, 1975 ) and now:

a) 11.Na3?! 0-0 12.g3? ( better 12.Bxe5 dxe5 according English GM ) 12..Ng6 with Black advantage Hall-West, USA, 1993 ( or 12..c6 Kessler-Schultz, cr. email, 2004 )

b) 11.Nf3 Nxf3+ 12.Bxf3 Nf7! with idea ..0-0 and ...Ne5, or even, in some cases, ...g5 and ...h5 catching a bishop. In this way Black won a game Ali Bin-Ismail, Moskow ol., 1994; 0-1, 45

Maybe "our" Director GM Tony Kosten should to say anything about all this ? ....  (!!)
  
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #51 - 03/12/12 at 19:50:36
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Instinctively I distrust 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 f5 4.Bc4 exd4 as it is reminiscent of a Scotch Gambit (where ...f7-f5 is rarely one of Black's better moves except in certain lines where Black gets ...Nxe4 in).  5.Ng5 Nh6 6.0-0 f4!? might well be Black's best chance in this variation but 7.Bxf4 Qf6 8.Qd2 still looks very good for White. 
  
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #50 - 03/12/12 at 06:03:01
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I am not sure of the principles by which Black's chances can be upheld after 4.Bc4, apart from pixie dust. This line at best is fun for coffeehousing. Nobody willing to defend Black's game on an objective basis could be accused of sanity.

It mystifies me that any exponent of romantic chess, like Lev, could uphold Black's side of a system that so thoroughly depends on the assumption that piece activity counts for little. Are there no principles of chess?
  

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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #49 - 03/12/12 at 00:07:36
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The summary looks accurate enough. If Elburg and Tiemann do not respond, start the tournament without them.
  
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #48 - 03/11/12 at 23:26:22
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Gambit wrote on 03/11/12 at 22:02:49:
Thanks, Alejandro. These guys don't understand that 4 Bc4 is not as critical is it looks.

So when is the Latvian Gambit Tournament taking place?


I continue thinking as Eric's Schiller ( "Survive & beat annoying chess openings", 2003 ) and Maurits Wind ( Chess review "Kaissiber" 7/2007 ) point of view, that 4.exf5 is most simple way to find "some" refutation on Philidor Countergambit. ( 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 f5 )

Summarizing;

a) 4.Nc3 fxe4 5.Nxe4 Nf6! ( 5..d5?! 6.Nxe5!? is more dubtious )
b) 4.dxe5 fxe4 5.Ng5 d5 6.e6 Nh6! 7.Nc3 c6 8.Ngxe4 Nf5!? ( Kosten, T )
c) 4.Bc4 exd4 ( 4..Nc6 5.Nc3 ) 5.Ng5 Nh6 6.0-0 f4!?

PS. "Gambit", our thematic Tourney should to start soon, but I'm waiting any answer of two important players, John Elburg and Hagen Tiemann. I see you are anxious to test some Philidor' traspositions ! ( 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.d4 d6; 3.Nc3 d6; 3.Bc4 d6 and 3.exf5 d6 but the problem is most people plays 3.Nxe5, so you will be able to do something about !! )
  
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #47 - 03/11/12 at 23:12:17
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That is correct, it transposes to the Rousseau Gambit after 4...Nc6.

Black should book up on PCG theory, then he will be having all the fun.
  
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #46 - 03/11/12 at 22:49:01
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Is 4...Nc6 not a straight transposition to the Rousseau Gambit (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 f5 4.d4 d6, vs. 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 f5 4.Bc4 Nc6)?  My understanding was that 4.d4 is the most critical test of the Rousseau, as Tim McGrew admitted in one of his articles:
http://www.chesscafe.com/text/mcgrew13.pdf
That said, Tim (and Dennis Monokroussos) only consider 4...fxe4 here and not 4...d6.

5.Ng5 Nh6 6.0-0 can be met by 6...Nxd4 which might be OK for Black (7.c3 f4! or 7.Nc3 c6, when White has plenty of compensation for the pawn, but probably not a large advantage).  Therefore White should probably save the pawn with 6.d5 Na5 7.Bd3 (or 6...Nd4 7.c3) when I think White has a pretty substantial advantage.

Alternatively Markovich gave 5.Nc3 Nf6 6.Ng5, which also looks good for White, e.g. 6...Qe7 7.Bf7+ Kd7 8.d5 Nd4 9.Be6+ Ke8 10.exf5, with complications, but White has the majority of the attacking chances.   If 5...fxe4 then 6.Ng5 Nh6 7.Ngxe4, or 6...exd4 7.Bf7+ Kd7 8.Nd5. 

I won't deny that the Philidor Countergambit may be a lot of fun in rapid games, but it seems to me that if White plays accurately then it's White who has the majority of the fun, with good attacking chances against the weakened black kingside.
  
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #45 - 03/11/12 at 22:02:49
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Thanks, Alejandro. These guys don't understand that 4 Bc4 is not as critical is it looks.

So when is the Latvian Gambit Tournament taking place?
  
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #44 - 03/11/12 at 21:44:13
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Fllg wrote on 03/11/12 at 17:24:30:
Markovich, like you I believe 3... f5? to be bad. And of course 4.Bc4 fxe4? 5.Nxe5 is quite strong, but that´s not what I wrote in my above post Wink.

Instead I wrote about 4.Bc4 exd4 5.Ng5 Nh6 and 4.dxe5 fxe4 5.Ng5.

It´s quite clear to me that White has more than one way to prove an advantage which is bigger than before Black´s third move...





I don't like 4..exd4, but anyway 5.Ng5 Nh6 6.0-0 f4!? 7.Bxf4 Qf6:

a) 8.Qh5+ g6 9.Qh4 ( Reyna-Pérez, cr. Cuba, 1984 http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~goeller/urusov/games/reyna-perez.htm ) but now 9..Ng4! etc.
b) 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.Re1 is analyzed in West book, by trasposition; several games are known, now 9..Ne5 or 9..Be7 ( Mechkarov ) are suggested.
c) 8.Bc1 Nc6 9.f4 Bg4 10.Qd3 0-0-0 is not problematic as Black either ( Zemitis-Melchor, cr. 1997 )

Probably 4.Bc4 Nc6 is the only reasonable move as it was pointed by Jim West at http://jimwestonchess.blogspot.com/2007/02/philidor-counter-gambit-4bc4.html
  
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #43 - 03/11/12 at 21:36:48
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West does have an analyses of it on his website and in his book. I did not post it here because the analyses and games take 10 pages of text and diagrams in the book. But since you ask, let me post some of it here.

1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 f5 4 Bc4 exd4 5 Ng5 Nh6 6 00 Nc6 7 exf5 Bxf5 8 Re1+ Kd7 9 Be6+ Bxe6 10 Nxe6 Qh4 =+ per Steinitz.

My BOOKUP 2000 computer gives 11...Ne5 12 Qd5 c6 13 Nc5+ Kc7 14 Ne6+ Kc7 with a perpetual check.
  
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #42 - 03/11/12 at 17:41:51
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Fllg wrote on 03/11/12 at 17:24:30:
Markovich, like you I believe 3... f5? to be bad. And of course 4.Bc4 fxe4? 5.Nxe5 is quite strong, but that´s not what I wrote in my above post Wink.

Instead I wrote about 4.Bc4 exd4 5.Ng5 Nh6 and 4.dxe5 fxe4 5.Ng5.

It´s quite clear to me that White has more than one way to prove an advantage which is bigger than before Black´s third move...




Sorry, I got confused.

I suppose that West haa an analysis of it, but to me, 4...exd4 5.Ng5 Nh6 6.0-0 looks strong. E.g. 6...Nc6 7.exf5 Bxf5 8.Re1+ Kd7 9.Be6+ Bxe6 10.Nxe6 Qh4 11.Qf3.
  

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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #41 - 03/11/12 at 17:24:30
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Markovich, like you I believe 3... f5? to be bad. And of course 4.Bc4 fxe4? 5.Nxe5 is quite strong, but that´s not what I wrote in my above post Wink.

Instead I wrote about 4.Bc4 exd4 5.Ng5 Nh6 and 4.dxe5 fxe4 5.Ng5.

It´s quite clear to me that White has more than one way to prove an advantage which is bigger than before Black´s third move...



  
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #40 - 03/11/12 at 15:50:45
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So what is Black supposed to do after 4.Bc4 exd4 5.Ng5?

@Fllg: Isn't 4.Bc4 fxe4 5.Nxe5 quite strong?
  

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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #39 - 03/11/12 at 15:29:48
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It seems that I have to hit a moving target. It was first said that 4...Nc6 was West's move; only now, exd4 comes up. Either way I believe I've already dealt convincingly with 4...b5 by means of 5.Bb3 fxe4 6.Nc3! c6 7.Nxe4 Nf6 8.Neg5. At least there.has been no rejoinder. Nor has there been a rejoinder to 4...Nc6 5.Nc3 Nf6 6.Ng5.

I'll return with my reaction to 4...exd4. But in all honesty Lev, it's rather unfair to attack my character for not seeing both sides of a line of play which I claim to be uniformly bad for Black. Am I not allowed to say that bad play is bad without being personally criticised?
« Last Edit: 03/11/12 at 17:45:43 by Markovich »  

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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #38 - 03/11/12 at 15:15:32
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I´m not here to defend Blacks cause but I have played this a few times a long time ago in my youth and from what I remember after 4.Bc4 exd4 5.Ng5 Nh6 is critical intending 6.Nxh7 Ng4. This has been played by Jonathan Mestel in 1975 winning a miniature in the U20-Wch.

Anyway I´m sure White is better after 4.exf5 and even 4.dxe5 fxe4 5.Ng5 d5 6.e6 Bc5 7.Nxe4! Be7 8.Ng5 Bxg5 9.Qh5+ g6 10.Qxg5 Qxg5 11.Bxg5 is no fun for Black as I had to experience myself. White has a stable edge with his pair of Bishops.
  
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #37 - 03/11/12 at 01:52:31
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Markovich wrote on 03/10/12 at 21:46:10:
While 4.exf5 and 4.Nc3 probably promise advantage for White, the position seems to cry out for 4.Bc4, particularly since 4...fxe4 fails.

I'm not going to waste my money on a book that claims that the position after 4.Bc4 is good for Black, nor am I likely to scour West's site just to find out where he addresses 4.Bc4 Nc6 5.Nc3 Nf6 6.Ng5.

But if if anyone wants to dispute my point of view with anything concrete, he can do it here.


See, that's your problem, Markovich. You don't want to see both sides of the debate, as MnB does.  That having been said, it might interest you that after 4 Bc4 West gives 4...exd4 with the following lines:

5 Nxd4 fxe4 6 Qh5+ g6 7 Qd5 Qe7 8 Bg5 Nf6 9 Bxf6 Qxf6 10 Qxe4+

In Tamburro - West, New York, 1992, there followed 10 Nc3 c6 11 Qxe4+ Qe7 12 000 Qxe4 13 Nxe4 d5 14 Rhe1 Bh6+ 15 Ng5+ Kf8 16 Ndf3 Bg4 17 h4 Nd7 = , 0-1/45.

10...Qe7 11 Ne6 Bxe6 12 Qxe6 Qxe6+ 13 Bxe6 Nc6 14 c3 Ke7 15 Bb3 Bg7 = , analysis by GM Tony Kosten. 

There is more analyses and games with 4 Bc4 ed4, but I am just giving you a sample.

West gives two moves (the book is from 1996) against 4 Bc4. These moves are 4...exd4 and 4...Nc6. A third move, 4...b5!? was discovered by me only in 2003.
  
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #36 - 03/10/12 at 21:46:10
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While 4.exf5 and 4.Nc3 probably promise advantage for White, the position seems to cry out for 4.Bc4, particularly since 4...fxe4 fails.

I'm not going to waste my money on a book that claims that the position after 4.Bc4 is good for Black, nor am I likely to scour West's site just to find out where he addresses 4.Bc4 Nc6 5.Nc3 Nf6 6.Ng5.

But if if anyone wants to dispute my point of view with anything concrete, he can do it here.
  

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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #35 - 03/10/12 at 11:25:47
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Probably not. And if you want more info, check out Jim West on Chess blog. It has his games with the lines you ask about here. Better yet, buy his book, "The Dynamic Philidor Counter Gambit".
« Last Edit: 03/11/12 at 01:30:55 by Gambit »  
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #34 - 03/10/12 at 05:10:51
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But is trading queens the best line for white against 4..Bxf5

breizatao wrote on 03/10/12 at 04:30:38:
kevinfat wrote on 03/10/12 at 03:49:17:
I think that
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 f5 4.exf5 Bxf5
is the only playable way for black.


Sorry Kevin but 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 f5 4.exf5 Bxf5?! 5.dxe5 Nc6 (5...Qe7 6.Bg5 or 6.Nc3) 6.Bb5! dxe5 7.Qxd8+ Rxd8 8.Bxc6 bxc6 9.Nxe5 +/- seems good for White.

  
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #33 - 03/10/12 at 04:30:38
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kevinfat wrote on 03/10/12 at 03:49:17:
I think that
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 f5 4.exf5 Bxf5
is the only playable way for black.


Sorry Kevin but 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 f5 4.exf5 Bxf5?! 5.dxe5 Nc6 (5...Qe7 6.Bg5 or 6.Nc3) 6.Bb5! dxe5 7.Qxd8+ Rxd8 8.Bxc6 bxc6 9.Nxe5 +/- seems good for White.
  
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #32 - 03/10/12 at 04:21:06
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4...Bf5 is easier to play, but the other line is just as good, provided you know West's analyses and games.
  
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #31 - 03/10/12 at 03:49:17
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I am skeptical about 4..e4
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 f5 4.exf5 e4 5.Ng5 Nf6 6.Nc3 d5 7.f3 h6 8.Ne6 Bxe6 9.fxe6 Bb4 10.Be2!

I think that
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 f5 4.exf5 Bxf5
is the only playable way for black.

Gambit wrote on 03/09/12 at 16:42:31:
To begin with, after 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 f5 4 exf5 e4! is played. Then you have:

5 Ng5 Nf6

6 Ne6 Bxe6 7 fxe6 d5 8 Be2 Qd6 9 00 Qxe6 10 f3 Bd6 11 fxe4 dxe4 12 b3 Nbd7 13 Na3 c6 14 Nc4 Bc7 15 Ne3 000 and 0-1/56, Airapetian - Arkhipkin, Erevan, 1981.

6 Nc3 d5 7 f3 h6!

8 Ne6 Bxe6 9 fxe6 Bb4 10 Bd2 Bxc3 11 bxc3 Qe7 12 fxe4 Qe6 13 e5 Ne4 14 Bd3 00 15 Bxe4 dxe4 16 Qe2 Qg6, = in 27, Gubats - Ziedins, Latvia, 1970.

Of course, 4...Bf5 can be played. In his book, West gives ten pages of games and analyses to this move. Obviously, for space reasons, I cannot cite everything.
  
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #30 - 03/09/12 at 16:42:31
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To begin with, after 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 f5 4 exf5 e4! is played. Then you have:

5 Ng5 Nf6

6 Ne6 Bxe6 7 fxe6 d5 8 Be2 Qd6 9 00 Qxe6 10 f3 Bd6 11 fxe4 dxe4 12 b3 Nbd7 13 Na3 c6 14 Nc4 Bc7 15 Ne3 000 and 0-1/56, Airapetian - Arkhipkin, Erevan, 1981.

6 Nc3 d5 7 f3 h6!

8 Ne6 Bxe6 9 fxe6 Bb4 10 Bd2 Bxc3 11 bxc3 Qe7 12 fxe4 Qe6 13 e5 Ne4 14 Bd3 00 15 Bxe4 dxe4 16 Qe2 Qg6, = in 27, Gubats - Ziedins, Latvia, 1970.

Of course, 4...Bf5 can be played. In his book, West gives ten pages of games and analyses to this move. Obviously, for space reasons, I cannot cite everything.
  
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #29 - 03/09/12 at 13:30:21
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Gambit wrote on 03/03/12 at 02:58:13:
A search on West's website gave 5...Nf6! as the correct move.

In that case, 6.Ng5 looks quite strong to me. Rather than just quoting West, cou"d you point me to his treatment of 5...Nf6?
  

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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #28 - 03/09/12 at 12:19:18
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What does James West recommend for white if black plays 4..Bxf5
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 f5 4.exf5 Bxf5

Gambit wrote on 02/27/12 at 03:57:07:
I play the Philidor Counter-Gambit a lot, and have never seen 4...Qe7 played. James West suggests instead, 4...e4. Now, 5 Ng5 Nf6 with the following deviations:

  A1.1  6 Ne6

  A1.2  6 Nc3 d5 7 f3 h6  8 Ne6;
                                     8 Nge4


  A2 5...Bxf5

   6 Nc3 d5
   6 Nc3 Nf6
   6  f3

   and Black has 3 responses:

   6...d5; 6...Qe7 ; 6...e3

Source: The Dynamic Philidor Counter-Gambit 2nd edition, by NM James R. West

Also, let me mention here that my joint analyses with West and his chess engine Fritz have found new improvements in the Newark Gambit. In fact, the improvements put to rest the  so called refutations.

At this moment I am playing a correspondence game with the Newark Gambit. It involves the line you mentioned, Alejandro, "the ruinous position". Once it is finished, I will post it here.

When your Latvian Gambit correspondence tournament starts, I will be only too happy to play you. Maybe then we can transpose, via 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 f5 3 d4 d6 4 Bc4 b5
order, into my line.

So how long until the LG tournament starts?
  
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #27 - 03/03/12 at 02:58:13
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A search on West's website gave 5...Nf6! as the correct move.
  
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #26 - 03/03/12 at 00:52:37
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Gambit wrote on 03/02/12 at 21:56:00:
It took NM James West to point out just how to play the f5 - Philidor properly. I bet that some players screwed up playing f5, and their defeats got mentioned in Lasker's Manual.

Which line do you consider critical, Jupp?

To cite West's book, pages 118-120:

After 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 f5 4 Bc4 West gives 4...Nc6 5 dxe5 dxe5 6 Qxd8+ Nxd8 7 Ne5



I don't understand 5.dxe5.  It certainly would not be my first idea.  Why would White, with much better activity, want to exchange queens? What does West say about 5.Nc3, which looks to me like a very good move?  White's position is God's gift to a gambiteer, and you're upholding Black's side of it!  I can't figure it.
  

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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #25 - 03/02/12 at 21:56:00
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It took NM James West to point out just how to play the f5 - Philidor properly. I bet that some players screwed up playing f5, and their defeats got mentioned in Lasker's Manual.

Which line do you consider critical, Jupp?

To cite West's book, pages 118-120:

After 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 f5 4 Bc4 West gives 4...Nc6 5 dxe5 dxe5 6 Qxd8+ Nxd8 7 Ne5

Alternatives:

  7 exf5 Nc6 8 Bd3 Nge7 9 Nh4 Nd4 10 g4 h5 = 11 h3? hxg4 12 hxg4 Rxh4! -+ ; 8 Ng5 Nd4 9 Nf7 Bxf5 =

7 Nc3, McCarthy - West, Somerset 1991

  7... fxe4 8 Bd2
 
 Alternatives:

  8 Nxe4 Nf6 9 Nxf6 ch gxf6 10 00 Nf7 =
  8 Nc3 Nf6 9 Bg5 Bd6 10 f4 Be6 and drawn on move 27, MacArthur - West, Somerset, 1995.

8...Bd6 9 Bc3 Nf6 10 h3 Be6 11 Nd2 00 12 00 Nd5, drawn on move 30.

The above game given by West is Lowenthal and Medley - Morphy and Mongredien, London, 1858.
  
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #24 - 03/02/12 at 12:37:10
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f5 has been played by Philidor and Morphy - indeed. This is no prove the moves are good, with all respect to the grand old masters. Infact Philidor and Morphy opened the door to the class teaching us inferior players why these kind of moves are minor moves.

f5 was respectable enough to be mentioned in Lasker's Manual as a bad continuation. That's the kind of respect a great master of the past deserves.

Having fun with this continuation is one thing and all right. De gustibus non est disputandum! Telling this a good move shows either a lack of chess education (and-)or disrespect.
  

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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #23 - 03/02/12 at 08:28:11
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Regarding 3...f5, it has been played by Morphy, no less. The poor move, as you call it, is actually 4...Qe7.
  
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #22 - 03/02/12 at 08:07:37
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This is in no way similar to anti-Sicilians or 1.d4 without c4. In those two examples, white plays a second-best move to get an equal (or perhaps very slightly advantageous) position from a theoretical perspective in order to fish in less-charted waters.

Here, Black is playing clearly inferior moves that have not been tested in grandmaster practice and then trying to figure out how to survive from that obviously inferior position. It's not the same thing, and the readers should know it.
  
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #21 - 03/02/12 at 00:26:21
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I have the same opinion of anti-Sicilians, 1. d4 without 2. c4, and other sidelines. Would it not be better to generally play the Open Sicilian, 1. d4 with 2. c4, and other main lines instead of expending maximum effort trying to get a good position out of a mediocre opening line? To me it is like wasting 1 hour on the clock for no reason in a tournament game and then trying very hard not to lose on time before move 40...
  

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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #20 - 03/01/12 at 20:40:14
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I can't understand the obsession with lines like 3...f5 and 4...Qe7.  I mean, some people play two poor moves and then burn the midnight oil trying to find the best possible way to continue after that.  Why not just play good moves from the outset?
  
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #19 - 03/01/12 at 17:17:09
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Gambit wrote on 03/01/12 at 02:40:21:
I suggest you buy West's book, "The Dynamic Philidor Counter Gambit". It gives good analyses of 4...Nc6 lines.

You should also google Jim West on Chess and go on his website. He gives many games with 4...Nc6.


I'll save my money.  As for the website, there is no easy way to discover games in this line.  If I ever encounter this I will just have to reply to 4...Nc6 with 5.Nc3 and see what happens.  But I thought you would share your own ideas, that's really what I was asking.
  

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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #18 - 03/01/12 at 02:40:21
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I suggest you buy West's book, "The Dynamic Philidor Counter Gambit". It gives good analyses of 4...Nc6 lines.

You should also google Jim West on Chess and go on his website. He gives many games with 4...Nc6.
  
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #17 - 02/29/12 at 11:39:12
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Gambit wrote on 02/29/12 at 06:31:01:
I will email West. Between him and Fritz we will come up with an antidote to your lines.

As for 4...fxe4? it  is a mistake. I thought you knew that, Markovich. West himself says either 4...Nc6 or 4...b5 are the playable moves.

No, I had no idea. I mistrust West if he claims 4...b5 is viable. When did chess stop being chess?

4...Nc6 looks like a better idea, but what is Black's play supposed to be after 5.exf5 Bxf5 6.0-0?  Offhand White looks better to me.  I found a lot of old games with 5.dxe5 in my data base, but that move makes no sense to me.  For that matter, 5.Nc3 looks quite strong.

It seems to me that if 4.Bc4 can be safely played, then 3...f5 is just a mistake.
« Last Edit: 02/29/12 at 22:11:35 by Markovich »  

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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #16 - 02/29/12 at 06:31:01
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I will email West. Between him and Fritz we will come up with an antidote to your lines.

As for 4...fxe4? it  is a mistake. I thought you knew that, Markovich. West himself says either 4...Nc6 or 4...b5 are the playable moves.
  
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #15 - 02/28/12 at 21:28:25
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Gambit wrote on 02/28/12 at 16:28:45:
James West suggests 6...c6! This is found by his Fritz engine. We analysed this back and forth. Black appears to hold in all lines, including the 7 Ne4 and 7 Ng5 lines.

If 7 Nxe4 Nf6! 8 Nxf6 gf6
                      8 Ng3 e4



What about 8.Neg5? For example, 8.Neg5 e4 9.Nf7 Qe7 10.O-O and Black seems to be in water way over his head. 

When was it, 1855, that Morphy demonstrated to all and sundry just how to smash an opponent who opens the position when lagging in development?  That's what Reti thought his point was, anyway.  Has something changed since then?

I can't believe a great gambiteer like you, Lev, author of so many nice piece attacks, is upholding this antediluvian approach to chess!  Or that anyone is, for that matter.

What, by the way, is supposed to be Black's play against 4.Bc4 fxe4 5.Nxe5?  I would be very interested to know.
  

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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #14 - 02/28/12 at 17:40:00
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Gambit wrote on 02/28/12 at 16:28:45:
7 Ng5 Qe7 8 Nf7 Nf6 9 Nxh8 d5 10 dxe5 Qxe5 11 00 Ng4 12 f4 Bc5+ 13 Kh1 Qh5! 14 h3 Qh4 15 Bd5 Qg3 16 Bf7+ Ke7! 17 Qg4 Bg4  18 Ne4 Qh4 19 Nc5 Bxh3 20 Rf3 Bg4 21 Rh3 Bh3 22 gh leading to a draw by perpetual check in the lines Fritz, West and I analysed.

I'd prefer 9.dxe5. This is clearly better than your move.
After 9. .. dxe5 10. Bg5 white develops easily with a material and a positional plus.
  

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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #13 - 02/28/12 at 16:28:45
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James West suggests 6...c6! This is found by his Fritz engine. We analysed this back and forth. Black appears to hold in all lines, including the 7 Ne4 and 7 Ng5 lines.

If 7 Nxe4 Nf6! 8 Nxf6 gf6
                      8 Ng3 e4

7 Ng5 Qe7 8 Nf7 Nf6 9 Nxh8 d5 10 dxe5 Qxe5 11 00 Ng4 12 f4 Bc5+ 13 Kh1 Qh5! 14 h3 Qh4 15 Bd5 Qg3 16 Bf7+ Ke7! 17 Qg4 Bg4  18 Ne4 Qh4 19 Nc5 Bxh3 20 Rf3 Bg4 21 Rh3 Bh3 22 gh leading to a draw by perpetual check in the lines Fritz, West and I analysed.

These lines were worked out at the 2012 United States Amateur Team East tournament and shortly afterwards, February 18 - 26, 2012. USATE lasted 3 days, 18-20 February 2012.
  
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #12 - 02/28/12 at 14:26:37
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Lev, what is your answer to 4.Bc4 b5 5.Bb3 fxe5 6.Nc3? Frankly it amazes me that anyone with any sense of judgment in this game could uphold Black's side.
  

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C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Bxf5
Reply #11 - 02/28/12 at 12:29:49
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I have been having a hard time finding the theory on
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 f5 4.exf5 Bxf5
Is there a way for white to get a major advantage against Bxf5 without having to trade queens?

[Moved by Markovich. I don't think we need multiple theads on this gambit, however powerful an antidote to 1.e4 it may be.]
« Last Edit: 02/28/12 at 14:17:29 by Markovich »  
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #10 - 02/27/12 at 03:57:07
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I play the Philidor Counter-Gambit a lot, and have never seen 4...Qe7 played. James West suggests instead, 4...e4. Now, 5 Ng5 Nf6 with the following deviations:

  A1.1  6 Ne6

  A1.2  6 Nc3 d5 7 f3 h6  8 Ne6;
                                     8 Nge4


  A2 5...Bxf5

   6 Nc3 d5
   6 Nc3 Nf6
   6  f3

   and Black has 3 responses:

   6...d5; 6...Qe7 ; 6...e3

Source: The Dynamic Philidor Counter-Gambit 2nd edition, by NM James R. West

Also, let me mention here that my joint analyses with West and his chess engine Fritz have found new improvements in the Newark Gambit. In fact, the improvements put to rest the  so called refutations.

At this moment I am playing a correspondence game with the Newark Gambit. It involves the line you mentioned, Alejandro, "the ruinous position". Once it is finished, I will post it here.

When your Latvian Gambit correspondence tournament starts, I will be only too happy to play you. Maybe then we can transpose, via 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 f5 3 d4 d6 4 Bc4 b5
order, into my line.

So how long until the LG tournament starts?
  
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #9 - 02/25/12 at 22:57:30
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kevinfat wrote on 02/23/12 at 08:21:29:
I was looking at the line
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 f5 4.exf5 Qe7
and couldn't find a way to get a clear dominating position for white. Is the move 4.. Qe7 a known theoretical move in the philidor countergambit?

I've read in a number of places that 4.exf5 is suppose to be the crushing move against the philidor countergambit, but I'm not so sure of it after 4.. Qe7.


This move was played in a game between two relative strong players: ( from a Latvian gambit trasposition ), so it's not a "novelty".

Pupols,V - Grivainis,K corr., 1970-71 : 5.Bg5 Nf6 6.dxe5 dxe5 ( I would prefer 5..Bxf5 ) 7.Nc3 ( 7.Bb5+!? ) 7..Nbd7? ( 7..Bxf5 again ) 8.Bd3 Qb4 9.0-0 Bd6 10.h3 etc. ( best even 10.a3 Qg4 11.Nb5 ) and White won at move 31 ( "The Latvian gambit" 1985, by Kon Grivainis, page 164 ).

Probably 5.dxe5 Bxf5 6.Nc3 dxe5 7.Bc4 is another correct way
  
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #8 - 02/25/12 at 12:30:27
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3...f5?!
4....Qe7?

Tad harsh. But certainly helpful.

  
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breizatao
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #7 - 02/25/12 at 04:39:26
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okay Marko, this is a bit harsh but that's your point of view.

In mind, it's a great moderation. Smiley

We'll stop this post by concluding that 4 ... Qe7 is not paying for Black.
  
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #6 - 02/24/12 at 21:36:37
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breizatao wrote on 02/24/12 at 19:48:37:
Markovich wrote on 02/24/12 at 19:14:18:
What is to answer, really? After 4...Qe7, White has made four good moves, Black one.

Who is promoting 3...f5 that this bad move keeps attracting attention here?


You can always denigrate some variations but it is still necessary to discover refutations. I think we should be open minded, Marko, and accept that some players are looking to explore some variants even considered doubtful. It is the charm of Chess.


I don't criticise you for pointing out some specifics to tne OP, nor  do I say that denegration is a substitute for analysis.

But to observe frankly that one side's game is crap is a useful antidote to wasting time on analysis. If you want to put a page of variations up here analyzing 4...Qe7, by all means do so. I think though that the tail is wagging the dog if we need analysis to reach that conclusion.

Further if somebody seriously thinks Black's game might be okay after 4...Qe7, theoretical investigations are unlikely to be the very best use of the time they have for chess.
  

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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #5 - 02/24/12 at 19:48:37
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Markovich wrote on 02/24/12 at 19:14:18:
What is to answer, really? After 4...Qe7, White has made four good moves, Black one.

Who is promoting 3...f5 that this bad move keeps attracting attention here?


You can always denigrate some variations but it is still necessary to discover refutations. I think we should be open minded, Marko, and accept that some players are looking to explore some variants even considered doubtful. It is the charm of Chess.
  
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #4 - 02/24/12 at 19:14:18
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What is to answer, really? After 4...Qe7, White has made four good moves, Black one.

Who is promoting 3...f5 that this bad move keeps attracting attention here?
  

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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #3 - 02/24/12 at 16:10:18
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1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 f5 4. exf5 Qe7 5. dxe5 Bxf5 6. Bc4 dxe5 7. Nc3 Nc6 8. 0-0 Qd7 and now 9.Qxd7 Bxd7 10.Re1 O-O-O 11.Nxe5 Nxe5 12.Rxe5 Nf6 13.Re1 Bxf5 14.Bb3 Bd6 15.Be3 +/- with an extra pawn
  
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #2 - 02/24/12 at 10:16:12
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What about
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 f5 4. exf5 Qe7 5. dxe5 6. Bc4 dxe5 7. Nc3 Nc6 7. 0-0 Qd7
with only a small edge for white.

breizatao wrote on 02/24/12 at 07:56:12:
It is true that this move has never been played in OTB tournament game or postal chess game. Myself, I never met an opponent who played that move. Only the chess software Morphy 3.2.2 plays this move. However the software is quite weak and it does not give an accurate assessment of variations played. We can say that:

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 f5 4. exf5 Qe7 5. dxe5

a) 5... Bxf5 6. Nc3 (6. Bc4 dxe5 7. Nc3 c6 8. Ng5 Nh6 9. O-O+/-) 6... Nf6 7. Nd5 Nxd5 8. Qxd5 c6 9. Qxd6 Qxd6 10. exd6 Bxd6 11. Nd4+/-]

b) 5...dxe5 6. Ng5 Bxf5 7. Qf3 Bxc2 8. Qxb7 Qb4 9. Qxb4 Bxb4 10. Bd2 Bd6 11. Nc3+/-


For fans of this opening, I recall a good link http://contregambitphilidor.blogspot.com/  Wink
  
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Re: C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
Reply #1 - 02/24/12 at 07:56:12
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It is true that this move has never been played in OTB tournament game or postal chess game. Myself, I never met an opponent who played that move. Only the chess software Morphy 3.2.2 plays this move. However the software is quite weak and it does not give an accurate assessment of variations played. We can say that:

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 f5 4. exf5 Qe7 5. dxe5

a) 5... Bxf5 6. Nc3 (6. Bc4 dxe5 7. Nc3 c6 8. Ng5 Nh6 9. O-O+/-) 6... Nf6 7. Nd5 Nxd5 8. Qxd5 c6 9. Qxd6 Qxd6 10. exd6 Bxd6 11. Nd4+/-]

b) 5...dxe5 6. Ng5 Bxf5 7. Qf3 Bxc2 8. Qxb7 Qb4 9. Qxb4 Bxb4 10. Bd2 Bd6 11. Nc3+/-


For fans of this opening, I recall a good link http://contregambitphilidor.blogspot.com/  Wink
  
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C41: Philidor Countergambit 4.exf5 Qe7!?
02/23/12 at 08:21:29
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I was looking at the line
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 f5 4.exf5 Qe7
and couldn't find a way to get a clear dominating position for white. Is the move 4.. Qe7 a known theoretical move in the philidor countergambit?

I've read in a number of places that 4.exf5 is suppose to be the crushing move against the philidor countergambit, but I'm not so sure of it after 4.. Qe7.
  
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