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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Any d pawn attack drawbacks for Noteboom player ? (Read 13134 times)
Straggler
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Re: Any d pawn attack drawbacks for Noteboom player ?
Reply #17 - 03/11/12 at 14:36:33
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I've just discovered this thread, in which Markovich suggests that a Noteboom player might go for a Ragozin or Vienna in case of an early Nf3: http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1238669126/15. At club level you wouldn't need to know much Ragozin/Vienna theory in order to be better prepared than most of your opponents.
  
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Gilchrist is a legend
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Re: Any d pawn attack drawbacks for Noteboom player ?
Reply #16 - 03/06/12 at 19:50:10
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Straggler wrote on 03/06/12 at 11:51:19:
It's a shame that Scherbakov doesn't seem to deal with this problem in his new book on the Triangle, though since the book already runs to 450 pages he can hardly be faulted for that! I suppose the likelihood of a Colle or a London is not a major consideration at his level. Perhaps one should just play 2...Nf6 and if 3.c4 then 3...e6, when one has at least avoided the dreaded exchange variation? Irritating to have to learn the QGD as well as the Triangle stuff, though.


I think it would be a 700 page book if Scherbakov had to deal with all d4 sidelines in the detail he already did with the Noteboom..
  

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TalJechin
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Re: Any d pawn attack drawbacks for Noteboom player ?
Reply #15 - 03/06/12 at 14:57:55
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[quote author=19263B2A3C3A490 link=1330884762/14#14 date=1331042660][quote author=07323F1936303B3A3D530 link=1330884762/3#3 date=1330942477]The London & Co is surely a fly in the ointment in anything with d7-d5. 

I was thinking about using [b]1.d4 e6[/b] (inviting 2.e4 d5 and not closing the door on the Dutch) but after [b]2.Nf3 d5 3.Bf4[/b] can Black take advantage of not having played Nf6? 

After a quick look in the database I came up with [b]3...Bd6 4.e3[/b] (or 4.Bg3 Ne7(-f5)) [b]4...Bxf4 5.exf4 Qd6 6.Qd2 Nf6[/b] which already looks kinda promising... And [b]3.c3 Bd6 4.Bg5 Ne7[/b] also looks congenial to me.[/quote]

By the way, how would you respond to 1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 d5 [b]3.g3[/b] - would you head for a Dutch Stonewall? Or is 3...b5 an option?
[/quote]

Probably Stonewall, though I think I've seen 3...b5 recommended somewhere in a similar position... Also, 3...Nd7!? could be an alternative > if c4 then dxc4 & Nb6 :)

Anyway, my guess is that the Marshall will become more popular - at least to me it feels like the most critical white response.
  
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Re: Any d pawn attack drawbacks for Noteboom player ?
Reply #14 - 03/06/12 at 14:04:20
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[quote author=07323F1936303B3A3D530 link=1330884762/3#3 date=1330942477]The London & Co is surely a fly in the ointment in anything with d7-d5. 

I was thinking about using [b]1.d4 e6[/b] (inviting 2.e4 d5 and not closing the door on the Dutch) but after [b]2.Nf3 d5 3.Bf4[/b] can Black take advantage of not having played Nf6? 

After a quick look in the database I came up with [b]3...Bd6 4.e3[/b] (or 4.Bg3 Ne7(-f5)) [b]4...Bxf4 5.exf4 Qd6 6.Qd2 Nf6[/b] which already looks kinda promising... And [b]3.c3 Bd6 4.Bg5 Ne7[/b] also looks congenial to me.[/quote]
It's an interesting idea for Black. You could also transpose into the line mentioned by Chessexplained:
1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 e6 3.Bf4 c5 4.e3 Nf6 5.c3 Nc6 6.Nbd2 Nh5

By the way, how would you respond to 1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 d5 [b]3.g3[/b] - would you head for a Dutch Stonewall? Or is 3...b5 an option?

My take on 1.d4 e6 has been to go for the Triangle [i]if and only if[/i] White plays 2.c4. If instead 2.Nf3, then forget the Triangle and play 2...Nf6. Now 3.c4 c5 is a Benoni where Black has avoided the dangerous f4 & Bb5+ line.
  
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Chessexplained
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Re: Any d pawn attack drawbacks for Noteboom player ?
Reply #13 - 03/06/12 at 13:06:03
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Playing these kind of positions with Black (let's say after 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 c6 3.Bf4) mostly requires the right attitude, not specific lines. Of course it's useful to have an idea how to answer to get some kind of imbalance, but mostly you just need to be prepared to play a long game and test the White player to the last bullet (given he plays this stuff with the idea to just draw a higher rated opponent). I had this issue with the Slav for years when people played the Exchange with just a draw in mind. I scored close to 100% with black against the exchange Slav, you just need to be patient and avoid the total symmetry stuff. That's also why I would be more inclined to play something like 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 e6 3.Bf4 c5 4.e3 Nf6 5.c3 Nc6 6.Nbd2 Nh5 than going 2...c6/Bf5 and so on. That may be completely equal, but doesn't imbalance enough.
  
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TalJechin
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Re: Any d pawn attack drawbacks for Noteboom player ?
Reply #12 - 03/06/12 at 12:48:01
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If White [i]doesn't[/i] play the London & Co there are other issues in the background, for example 1.d4 e6 is often met by 2.Nf3 because White wants to avoid extra ...Bb4+ options in the Dutch (or even as soon as move two) where 1.d4 2.Nf3 3.g3 4.Bg2 5.0-0 is the most economical move order for white, which however means that if White intends to meet the Triangle with the Marshall Gambit he could be move-ordered out of it after 3 ply! :))

1...c6 allows the bishop to get out, but it also allows the Slav Exchange which would put me off it. Not only because of its drawishness, but also since White, if so inclined, can probably play for a safe edge as well.
  
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Re: Any d pawn attack drawbacks for Noteboom player ?
Reply #11 - 03/06/12 at 12:36:04
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Certainly not remotely enough of a problem to warrant learning the QGD too! 

Just learn something effective after d5/c6 or d5/e6 - there's plenty of choice - and if white solidly draws then its hardly a major achievement for him Smiley 

If you know they're going to stodge in advance and really want a fight then can maybe try stuff without d5 in.
  
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Re: Any d pawn attack drawbacks for Noteboom player ?
Reply #10 - 03/06/12 at 11:51:19
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It's a shame that Scherbakov doesn't seem to deal with this problem in his new book on the Triangle, though since the book already runs to 450 pages he can hardly be faulted for that! I suppose the likelihood of a Colle or a London is not a major consideration at his level. Perhaps one should just play 2...Nf6 and if 3.c4 then 3...e6, when one has at least avoided the dreaded exchange variation? Irritating to have to learn the QGD as well as the Triangle stuff, though.
  
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Re: Any d pawn attack drawbacks for Noteboom player ?
Reply #9 - 03/06/12 at 10:17:19
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Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 03/06/12 at 08:40:48:
They can basically play their systems against any Noteboom move-order. A ...Qb6 from 2...c6 will probably be answered by Qc1 followed by their usual Torre/London/Trompowsky/etc.

That's correct, but Black at least has avoided the answer Qb3 which is sometimes annoying. So White's choice has been limited too.
  

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Re: Any d pawn attack drawbacks for Noteboom player ?
Reply #8 - 03/06/12 at 08:40:48
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They can basically play their systems against any Noteboom move-order. A ...Qb6 from 2...c6 will probably be answered by Qc1 followed by their usual Torre/London/Trompowsky/etc. Colle players who play the b3 Colle probably will never have any problems since a ...Qb6 will always be answered by b3 and Bb2 anyway.
  

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Re: Any d pawn attack drawbacks for Noteboom player ?
Reply #7 - 03/06/12 at 08:36:11
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Straggler wrote on 03/05/12 at 22:28:09:
Most d-pawn special players just love to see ...d5 and ...e6, and at my level (1800) someone who plays 2.Nf3 is more likely to be planning 3.e3 or 3.Bf4 than 3.c4. Such a person isn't very likely to allow a Noteboom anyway, so you have more to lose than to gain by playing something that isn't ideal if White omits c4.


I think this is true at sub-2000 level, maybe even higher. Most of these players want to play their system, and not try to move order Black out of his anti-d-pawn special.

  
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Re: Any d pawn attack drawbacks for Noteboom player ?
Reply #6 - 03/05/12 at 22:28:09
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Most d-pawn special players just love to see ...d5 and ...e6, and at my level (1800) someone who plays 2.Nf3 is more likely to be planning 3.e3 or 3.Bf4 than 3.c4. Such a person isn't very likely to allow a Noteboom anyway, so you have more to lose than to gain by playing something that isn't ideal if White omits c4.
  
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Re: Any d pawn attack drawbacks for Noteboom player ?
Reply #5 - 03/05/12 at 19:10:56
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Thanks Eric,
  I think you got the first question ! I'm not that worried about facing d pawn attacks after 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 but there is the potential for 3.c4 and I have to defend the QGD. While this is not terrible, and is indeed what I play now, as you understood, i'm trying to think of the best move order to keep the Noteboom possibility open. Playing the Caro Kann as black gives me a ready made second move against the Veresov or the Blackmar, it's the others that are slightly awkward.
      Never mind, I'll see if Scherbakov mentions it when his book arrives !
      Thanks again,
                       Adam.
  
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Re: Any d pawn attack drawbacks for Noteboom player ?
Reply #4 - 03/05/12 at 17:23:20
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I made a post on this topic some years ago, but can't seem to find it with the search function.  The big drawback is that after 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 you have to commit to either 2...c6 or 2...e6 if you want a Noteboom, so you can't play 2...Nf6 3.Bf4 c5, for instance.  Still, you can vary your move order depending on opponent.

I used to play 2...e6, and if 3.Bf4 Bd6 right away.  If White played 3.e3 with a Colle I'd head for a Stonewall setup.

If equality is what you're after, 2...c6 might be a better option, but after 3.Bf4 Bf5 it can get pretty dull, for instance.  I suppose you might try 3...Nf6 and hope for 4.e3 Bg4.  After 2...c6 3.e3 a Stonewall is still possible, so 2...c6 might be the best way to play; I'm not really sure as I haven't played the Noteboom in years.
  
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Re: Any d pawn attack drawbacks for Noteboom player ?
Reply #3 - 03/05/12 at 10:14:37
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The London & Co is surely a fly in the ointment in anything with d7-d5. 

I was thinking about using [b]1.d4 e6[/b] (inviting 2.e4 d5 and not closing the door on the Dutch) but after [b]2.Nf3 d5 3.Bf4[/b] can Black take advantage of not having played Nf6? 

After a quick look in the database I came up with [b]3...Bd6 4.e3[/b] (or 4.Bg3 Ne7(-f5)) [b]4...Bxf4 5.exf4 Qd6 6.Qd2 Nf6[/b] which already looks kinda promising... And [b]3.c3 Bd6 4.Bg5 Ne7[/b] also looks congenial to me.
  
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