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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Future of the chess - Decrease of players? (Read 7598 times)
GeneM
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Re: Future of the chess - Decrease of players?
Reply #20 - 03/10/12 at 07:42:41
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the first thing you have to is to make rapid chess rated and also give titles to good rapid players ... then people will be inclined to more rapid chess

Perhaps six years ago the USCF (U.S. Chess Fed) implemented ratings for speed chess (meaning games with less than 1 hour for the whole game, such as Game/30).

The reaction of the speed-playing members can be summed up in two words: "Nobody cares".
I never cared about my speed rating, and I never will.

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Re: Future of the chess - Decrease of players?
Reply #19 - 03/07/12 at 23:21:56
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How do you want to synergize with the web?
In fact people don't go to the club, because they can as well play on the web. The problem really is what can a club provide to the players that is really unique and makes it stand out in comparison to the chess on the web.
2 games a day, a tournament lasting several days ... is a thing of the past ... the first thing you have to is to make rapid chess rated and also give titles to good rapid players ... then people will be inclined to more rapid chess ... now you participate and if you are not IM/GM you are just end up somewhere in the field ... and you played without a reason ... with ratings at least you can improve your rating, get some fide title ... believe me rapid chess is the future of chess ... classical chess is not anymore appropriate for the amateur!!! You can make a rapid tournament of 7 rounds or 9 rounds in one day!


People can play on the web indeed and maybe they prefer to prepare at home and visit the club only for tournaments, but since I found internet chess killer a program used on the web for cheating, I lost a lot of interest. In a club one can train with a strong player and specific variations or share experiences and knowledge. Today, I confess that I am again in the direction of the club at least for some specific training and of course for classical chess tournaments.
There are already semi-rapid ratings. I guess with ratings or without ratings, with GM´s/IM´s there someone will end up somewhere in the same field. I guess there are a lot of amateurs that will disagree on the blitz vs classic and in my view, people who really want to improve will need to play a lot of classical chess. See for example Grandmaster Alex Lenderman event history! http://main.uschess.org/msa/MbrDtlTnmtHst.php?12787646
I see blitz in the same superficial actual way of life and thinking but is just my way of seeing. There are positive points about blitz, like preparing openings etc, but In reality both ways will always be together. For beeing a good blitz player someone will always need to be a strong classical player and someone who understands chess. Sometimes players claim that they train blitz to train time trouble in long games but I prefer to train not to be in time trouble!  Grin
I remember Kazim in one of his videos saying: "We do not play chess for money or titles or whatever, we play for war memories...".
In tennis ( a well organized sport), competitions are divided e serious tournaments and more fun events at clubs for amateurs like some step tournaments were someone can challenge another member and exchange positions in case of victory. I think in chess there are now several option in rapid events for amateur players who like only that kind of chess. Clubs only need to organize all kind of events taking on account the number of participants.
In a more serious level, FIDE announced a calendar for 4 years and this could be a boost for chess in Europe on a par with the schools program wich I think could be an option like music etc, but when parents saw that chess will help students with math and concentration, imagination and above all children results at school etc, chess will gain much more visibility.

  

It has been said that chess players are good at two things, Chess and Excuses.  It has also been said that Chess is where all excuses fail! In order to win you must dare to fail!
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battleangel
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Re: Future of the chess - Decrease of players?
Reply #18 - 03/07/12 at 19:48:16
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How do you want to synergize with the web?
In fact people don't go to the club, because they can as well play on the web. The problem really is what can a club provide to the players that is really unique and makes it stand out in comparison to the chess on the web.
2 games a day, a tournament lasting several days ... is a thing of the past ... the first thing you have to is to make rapid chess rated and also give titles to good rapid players ... then people will be inclined to more rapid chess ... now you participate and if you are not IM/GM you are just end up somewhere in the field ... and you played without a reason ... with ratings at least you can improve your rating, get some fide title ... believe me rapid chess is the future of chess ... classical chess is not anymore appropriate for the amateur!!! You can make a rapid tournament of 7 rounds or 9 rounds in one day!

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I would think the explosion in web-based chess play would be a great thing for local chess clubs. But I have never seen any club attempt to synergize with the web; so the theory seems untested in my range of experience.

Instead of one or two on-site tournaments in a month of weekends, how about one on-site, plus one or two conducted through the web?

Playing through the web avoids the biggest problem of weekend tournaments on-site: playing more than one game per day. After all the travel time, people need to get two games in that travel day. But that is unpleasant compared to one game per day (for me and I dare say for many other players who like chess).


Imho. also GM's get pretty mad when they lose, take Kasparov or Ivanchuk as an example. Chess might be the number one game on the net, although I am not sure, maybe Poker is? But I guess it is definitely not the no. 1 seriously played game on the net.
Chess in schools is a nice thing, but it can only be optional, the pupils have to learn so many substantial things of life, that I don't see any school making a synthetitcal game a mandatory subject. Although it might be a good thing, because it probably improves imagination and abstract thinking, but still the subject itself is a purely synthetic creation by man.

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Completely agree and understand your points of view. A serious debate on this issue will take us to many subjects: Crisis in values, less time for family and friends outside jobs, cost of life. Chess improvement do not work well with egos and that represents a wrong path because to improve someone needs to try and to fail and that is a common trap. If someone sees his game as a quality and not so much the result, he will improve faster. Just look at top GM´s after their losses and after the games in post-mortem. They are not mad. Sometimes they smile too! At clubs when I ear player A beats player B, I always prefered "White beats Black" etc. Chess is an internal growth and could indeed help in real life choices.
I cannot believe in real debate of ideas only at home, because that always reminds me of Plato cave! A guy who thinks he knows the world inside his cave? Nah! That in itself is the problem of computers too and youngsters completely at home using chat and not living the real life or other times playing computer games the entire summer without going to the beach. In Japan society they call that desease something like "Ikikomori" (do not know if the name is wroten this way), where some guys live all nights in their bedrooms playing Playstation and during the day they sleep and see nobody! Their parents put the food near the door!   
World is becoming more and more superficial because people give importance to what someone have and not what someone is. All these magazines of what stars do and eat is a nonsence.
On the positive side, chess is the number one game on the net and this week with Kasparov help and votes of several euro deputies, could have a big boost on european schools and that is great news.


I guess germans are likely to differ ... although I have to admit DB has improved its service, but still it is a bit expensive ... if 2 or more persons travel the car is always cheaper ...

Markovich wrote on 03/06/12 at 01:47:19:
I'm sorry to post off-topic, but one of the best things about Germany is the Deutsche Bahn. If only we had something like it.


I myself don't like sausages that much,
but in my experience so far, sausages in germany tasted better than in other countries Smiley

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DB is great.
And the sausages.
  
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Re: Future of the chess - Decrease of players?
Reply #17 - 03/07/12 at 02:39:00
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I think if more than two players are sitting at the same computer cluster in the same room, perhaps that might deter cheating, unless of course all of them cheat by helping each other with their respective games...

And it depends on how big the country is. The longest motorway route in the UK is probably only as long as the Highway 401 connecting Windsor, ON and Montréal, QC in Canada. So a small country like the UK one can travel to another city that is hosting a chess tournament fairly easily, especially by train. One can get from Manchester to a tournament in Glasgow by train in about three or four hours, so there would be no need to play internet slow chess against someone who is using their own computer to play and is at a location less than 100 km away. Not all countries are so expansive that the nearest major city is more than 500 km away.
  

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GeneM
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Re: Future of the chess - Decrease of players?
Reply #16 - 03/07/12 at 01:25:17
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Uhohspaghettio wrote on 03/06/12 at 22:02:23:
Cheating would be too easy for serious games, wouldn't it?

If a player wants to play through the internet, he can easily just do it through eg. ICC without the need for any chess club.

[1a] Cheating is minimized by requiring that two (or more) players sit physically together where ever they are as they participate in the tournament round remotely.

[1b] Plus, players are allowed to play in the serious tournament remotely only if they are also active at the club (frequently enough) when on-premise tournaments or rounds are held: no club member is allowed to play only remotely week after week, month after month. That way there Elo from remote play can be compared to their Elo from on-premise play.

[1c] Plus, members from a club in Boston can play as a team against a club in Chicago.  The players gather together in Boston and in Chicago, and in team play experience an entirely different atmosphere and comraderie than they routinely experience at standard every-player-for-himself tournaments.

With modern 4G cellphones and pad computers, I could play for free against a person who sits in another city while I sit in the park on a sunny spring day, with my teammates. Who needs to pay rent for a club building each time?

[2] Using the crummy UI of ICC to play unrated quick chess through the web as an anonymous loner --- is extremely different than --- playing slow rated chess through the web with your real name and as part of a team from your local chess club against a team in another city.


Mixing in some remote web rated chess games would strengthen the local club, not weaken it.
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Re: Future of the chess - Decrease of players?
Reply #15 - 03/07/12 at 00:35:57
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Uhohspaghettio wrote on 03/07/12 at 00:04:52:
Mortal Games wrote on 03/06/12 at 23:19:13:
could have a big boost on european schools and that is great news.


Not really for the casual amateur, who would be hacked to pieces by the millions of good players coming out of it. What we need is for chess to appeal more to the casual player as something fun to do, not try and forcibly make people play it for other incentives.
   


That casual players would struggle is a really lousy argument against chess in schools. If the number of players increases, obviously the number of players who can beat you, or me, will increase too! That's just basic statistics, and a small price to pay for making the game more popular.

A small percentage of those who are exposed to chess as kids will continue playing. Out of dozens in a school chess program there will always be one or two real talents, or at least future club players who will have a fun hobby for life.

I'm less sure about programs that make chess mandatory. Show them the game, fine, but let them self-select to further playing/courses if they\re interested. That's basically how schools treat most sports and musical instruments.

I agree there are many negative sides to the internet, but let's not forget that it's also an arena for meaningful discussions on a lot of intellectual and cultural topics (for example this very forum!). Every cloud has a silver lining...
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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Uhohspaghettio
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Re: Future of the chess - Decrease of players?
Reply #14 - 03/07/12 at 00:04:52
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Mortal Games wrote on 03/06/12 at 23:19:13:
could have a big boost on european schools and that is great news.


Not really for the casual amateur, who would be hacked to pieces by the millions of good players coming out of it. What we need is for chess to appeal more to the casual player as something fun to do, not try and forcibly make people play it for other incentives.
   
  

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Re: Future of the chess - Decrease of players?
Reply #13 - 03/06/12 at 23:19:13
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the problem really is that chess is also somewhat expensive in terms of time and money ... there are not many tournaments ... and if you want to go there, that means you have to travel and book a hotel ... or you have everyday stress of driving like 100 km one-way in the car ... and then you play like 4 days in a row only chess ... 4 days is just too much ...

also chess is a very individualistic game, players can't take losses, they seem to them as an insult to their intelligence ... in others sports you appreciate other players if they play good and a you are also more likely to accept a loss, but not so in chess ...

also there are not so many awards ... I don't know I am rated 2000 and I won everything there is for me ...
the next step would for me would be to reach 2300 ...
and it's just too far away ... I could get there if I would dedicate myself solely to chess in any of my freetime, but right now I don't really deem this dedication worth it ... there should be more awards ... like everytime you cross 100 points ...

but maybe the times of chess are now over ...
intellectual things happen right now at home in the computer ... world is becoming more and more superficial ... you can't talk with anyone anymore about other things than the weather, the footballclub or superficially about some daily newsevents ... but people don't have any culture anymore ... they just learn enough to get their diploma in things, but they don't develop any culture ... this society has become acultural ... and everything intellectual is just happening inside in your home ... but you don't go outside anymore for this

really sometimes I think it would be better to live in the early 1900's, people did go to coffeehouses to talk about culture, to play chess ... now everyone is living in his virtual worlds ... and only go outside to drink beer or to make vacation ...


Completely agree and understand your points of view. A serious debate on this issue will take us to many subjects: Crisis in values, less time for family and friends outside jobs, cost of life. Chess improvement do not work well with egos and that represents a wrong path because to improve someone needs to try and to fail and that is a common trap. If someone sees his game as a quality and not so much the result, he will improve faster. Just look at top GM´s after their losses and after the games in post-mortem. They are not mad. Sometimes they smile too! At clubs when I ear player A beats player B, I always prefered "White beats Black" etc. Chess is an internal growth and could indeed help in real life choices.
I cannot believe in real debate of ideas only at home, because that always reminds me of Plato cave! A guy who thinks he knows the world inside his cave? Nah! That in itself is the problem of computers too and youngsters completely at home using chat and not living the real life or other times playing computer games the entire summer without going to the beach. In Japan society they call that desease something like "Ikikomori" (do not know if the name is wroten this way), where some guys live all nights in their bedrooms playing Playstation and during the day they sleep and see nobody! Their parents put the food near the door!  Lips Sealed
World is becoming more and more superficial because people give importance to what someone have and not what someone is. All these magazines of what stars do and eat is a nonsence.
On the positive side, chess is the number one game on the net and this week with Kasparov help and votes of several euro deputies, could have a big boost on european schools and that is great news.
  

It has been said that chess players are good at two things, Chess and Excuses.  It has also been said that Chess is where all excuses fail! In order to win you must dare to fail!
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Uhohspaghettio
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Re: Future of the chess - Decrease of players?
Reply #12 - 03/06/12 at 22:02:23
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Cheating would be too easy for serious games, wouldn't it?

If a player wants to play through the internet, he can easily just do it through eg. ICC without the need for any chess club.
  

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Re: Future of the chess - Decrease of players?
Reply #11 - 03/06/12 at 21:13:44
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GeneM wrote on 03/06/12 at 18:39:54:
I would think the explosion in web-based chess play would be a great thing for local chess clubs. But I have never seen any club attempt to synergize with the web; so the theory seems untested in my range of experience.

Instead of one or two on-site tournaments in a month of weekends, how about one on-site, plus one or two conducted through the web?

Playing through the web avoids the biggest problem of weekend tournaments on-site: playing more than one game per day. After all the travel time, people need to get two games in that travel day. But that is unpleasant compared to one game per day (for me and I dare say for many other players who like chess).[/color]

In the Netherlands several clubs do synergize with the web. I started recently a blog (unfortunately for most of you in Dutch) which promotes this relative new approach, see: http://schaken-brabo.blogspot.com/2012/02/clubschaak-en-of-internetschaak.html
  
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Re: Future of the chess - Decrease of players?
Reply #10 - 03/06/12 at 18:39:54
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imho. chess is losing a lot of ground lately in the western nations.
...
chess is losing a lot of ground here, from what I see is there is less and less participation of players in regional tournaments,
...
will chess become one day an onlinegame

I would think the explosion in web-based chess play would be a great thing for local chess clubs. But I have never seen any club attempt to synergize with the web; so the theory seems untested in my range of experience.

Instead of one or two on-site tournaments in a month of weekends, how about one on-site, plus one or two conducted through the web?

Playing through the web avoids the biggest problem of weekend tournaments on-site: playing more than one game per day. After all the travel time, people need to get two games in that travel day. But that is unpleasant compared to one game per day (for me and I dare say for many other players who like chess).
  

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Re: Future of the chess - Decrease of players?
Reply #9 - 03/06/12 at 16:24:32
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but maybe the times of chess are now over ...
intellectual things happen right now at home in the computer ... world is becoming more and more superficial ... you can't talk with anyone anymore about other things than the weather, the footballclub or superficially about some daily newsevents ... but people don't have any culture anymore ... they just learn enough to get their diploma in things, but they don't develop any culture ... this society has become acultural ... and everything intellectual is just happening inside in your home ... but you don't go outside anymore for this

really sometimes I think it would be better to live in the early 1900's, people did go to coffeehouses to talk about culture, to play chess ... now everyone is living in his virtual worlds ...


Bla bla blurb - YOU can make the difference if you want to. Or waste YOUR time lamenting.
  
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Re: Future of the chess - Decrease of players?
Reply #8 - 03/06/12 at 16:03:56
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but maybe the times of chess are now over ...
intellectual things happen right now at home in the computer ... world is becoming more and more superficial ... you can't talk with anyone anymore about other things than the weather, the footballclub or superficially about some daily newsevents ... but people don't have any culture anymore ... they just learn enough to get their diploma in things, but they don't develop any culture ... this society has become acultural ... and everything intellectual is just happening inside in your home ... but you don't go outside anymore for this

really sometimes I think it would be better to live in the early 1900's, people did go to coffeehouses to talk about culture, to play chess ... now everyone is living in his virtual worlds ...


Very sadddddd.....but unfortunately pure truth....... Cry
For the first time in my life after reading a comment I have tears in my eyes.... You must be a novel writer...
  
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Re: Future of chess - Decrease of players?
Reply #7 - 03/06/12 at 10:08:39
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Seth_Xoma wrote on 03/06/12 at 02:15:15:
I would have thought chess was experiencing a boom all over the world thanks to the internet? Maybe club and tournament participation is down, but I seriously wonder whether there are more people playing chess now than ever before?


There are probably more people playing now if you count the Internet, but these people seldom make it to the clubs. Organised chess seems to be declining rapidly. At least here in Sweden the team series pyramid is falling apart at the bottom, fewer and fewer clubs, further and further apart...

I doubt it's just chess though, most sports are probably affected by more and more people staying at home playing WoW etc on the net and using all the different social media platforms there instead of actually meeting people.
« Last Edit: 03/06/12 at 13:33:42 by TalJechin »  
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Re: Future of the chess - Decrease of players?
Reply #6 - 03/06/12 at 04:51:47
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Markovich wrote on 03/06/12 at 01:47:19:
Tullius wrote on 03/05/12 at 21:45:08:
I do not see the situation so pessimistic.

At first we have a number problem. Our society is aging. When i went in the school we had around 100 pupils in our age group, today there are only 40-50. Smaller towns and villages will suffer because many people have to move away when they want work and earn money. So i think that the number of chess players will generally decrease and there will be a higher decrease in small communities. But the decrease will not stop at the bottom.

On the other side i see many local trainers have success to recruit youngsters and teach them chess. Even in my little
town it seems possible. We were invited by the local school to organize a school chess group because parents are interested in chess! 

And i still think there are many intersting tournaments in Germany. Look at the schedule in the "Rochade Europa" and often you can find small accommodations with bed and breakfast around 30 Euro (and below). The Deutsche Bahn offers often low budget tariffs so much is possible.

I'm sorry to post off-topic, but one of the best things about Germany is the Deutsche Bahn. If only we had something like it.


DB is great.
And the sausages.
  
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