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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) UEFA Champions League 2012 (Read 11200 times)
Willempie
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Re: UEFA Champions League 2012
Reply #25 - 05/21/12 at 15:17:52
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Mortal Games wrote on 05/21/12 at 14:28:41:
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Willempie - Defending and tactics may have evolved, but scoring isnt tougher.

In reality I agree that today it isnt tougher only in physical terms taking on account the fact that materials have evolved and it was tougher for the foot thats why in the old days, a player with a good drible but above all, with great kick like Pele or Eusebio were great players and players that make a diference, but tougher to score I disagree because in the old times we see a lot results like 6-3, 5-4, 4-4, etc, that were very common. After catenaccio and the evolution on materials, athletics and tactics by computer study, today we look at italian football and we have 1-0, 1-1 or 0-0. It is not for some reason that FIFA created a new ball, more lighter and with some effects to dificult the job of goalkeapers and to have more goals this way.   

Italian football has always had results like that. If a match there has/had more than 3 goals it must be either bribed, 3 men sent off or there were no italian players present. Wink

Still I see your point, though I dont entirely agree. If you take for example champions league finals, you dont see any major trend. I think one of the main differences in the WC is that the difference in playing strength is less.
  

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Re: UEFA Champions League 2012
Reply #24 - 05/21/12 at 14:28:41
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Willempie - Defending and tactics may have evolved, but scoring isnt tougher.

In reality I agree that today it isnt tougher only in physical terms taking on account the fact that materials have evolved and it was tougher for the foot thats why in the old days, a player with a good drible but above all, with great kick like Pele or Eusebio were great players and players that make a diference, but tougher to score I disagree because in the old times we see a lot results like 6-3, 5-4, 4-4, etc, that were very common. After catenaccio and the evolution on materials, athletics and tactics by computer study, today we look at italian football and we have 1-0, 1-1 or 0-0. It is not for some reason that FIFA created a new ball, more lighter and with some effects to dificult the job of goalkeapers and to have more goals this way.
  

It has been said that chess players are good at two things, Chess and Excuses.  It has also been said that Chess is where all excuses fail! In order to win you must dare to fail!
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Re: UEFA Champions League 2012
Reply #23 - 05/21/12 at 13:27:31
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 05/21/12 at 11:53:02:


...I suppose Chelsea would have (perhaps deservedly?!) lost again. I read somewhere that Torres wanted to take a penalty but the manager refused! Probably he would have refused Terry, too, had he been playing. ...


In the singular instance of penalty kicks, Chelsea did deserve to win. After the game the manager of Bayern explained that Neuer took the third penalty after a long pause because nobody wanted to step up and take it! 

In order to win a championship, the players have to believe in themselves. Robben lacked the confidence to take the kick because he had already missed one in the extra time. While I think Robben should still have taken either the third or fourth penalty, the rest of the players had no such excuse.

I didn't know that Torres was refused an opportunity in the first five, but it's a wonderful problem to have as a manager that so many players wanted to step up and take the risk.

  
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Re: UEFA Champions League 2012
Reply #22 - 05/21/12 at 11:53:02
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Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 05/20/12 at 00:53:59:
What would have happened if Terry had to play the penalty at number 5?  Roll Eyes

I suppose Chelsea would have (perhaps deservedly?!) lost again. I read somewhere that Torres wanted to take a penalty but the manager refused! Probably he would have refused Terry, too, had he been playing.
There was another stupid article by 'Eurosport expert' Paul Parker entitled Chelsea cannot win on penalties (http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/blogs/paul-parker/chelsea-cannot-win-penalties-181...) just before the match! Roll Eyes
  
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Re: UEFA Champions League 2012
Reply #21 - 05/21/12 at 10:00:37
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Cruyff is. And that has everything to do with him being Dutch.
  

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Re: UEFA Champions League 2012
Reply #20 - 05/21/12 at 09:22:30
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Mortal Games wrote on 05/21/12 at 08:44:43:

You are right about the heavy leather ball and shoes but in those times football was in slow motion too and defenders could be like Vince Jones but were like girlscouts without agressive play. Any footage of those times makes anyone laughing about the ingenuity of defenders or the way they score goals. On the other hand, if Pele was playing today no doubt he will be a good player but far away from the best, because it is much more dificult for a forward to score then in those times. Today football is much more physical and the tactics had a big evolution, thats why it is not very apropriate to compare diferent times.      

I disagree here. Defending and tactics may have evolved, but scoring isnt tougher. For starters it is much easier to place a freekick due to the ball. If you would try a freekick curling into the upper corner with those things you would either break your foot or the ball would land after 5 yards. Same goes for shots and passes. Pace was indeed much slower and defenders more "stupid" to compensate. 
Still Pele isnt the best player ever imo.
  

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Re: UEFA Champions League 2012
Reply #19 - 05/21/12 at 08:44:43
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Pele said the same of Romario.

Pele had promoted himself very well along the years joining FIFA burocrats, but Maradona is best. The only problem is that he is a rebel.   

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I wanna see him try it, with a very heavy leather ball, the same shoes and defenders that make Vince Jones look like a girlscout.


You are right about the heavy leather ball and shoes but in those times football was in slow motion too and defenders could be like Vince Jones but were like girlscouts without agressive play. Any footage of those times makes anyone laughing about the ingenuity of defenders or the way they score goals. On the other hand, if Pele was playing today no doubt he will be a good player but far away from the best, because it is much more dificult for a forward to score then in those times. Today football is much more physical and the tactics had a big evolution, thats why it is not very apropriate to compare diferent times.
  

It has been said that chess players are good at two things, Chess and Excuses.  It has also been said that Chess is where all excuses fail! In order to win you must dare to fail!
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Re: UEFA Champions League 2012
Reply #18 - 05/21/12 at 07:12:11
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Mortal Games wrote on 05/19/12 at 22:44:15:
Wow, He is a very humble guy. I only give him the benefit of a doubt, because I know the rivalry between brasilians and argentinians, but if Messi was playing in those times of slowmotion football and easy defenders, he will score 3,000 goals.

I wanna see him try it, with a very heavy leather ball, the same shoes and defenders that make Vince Jones look like a girlscout.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: UEFA Champions League 2012
Reply #17 - 05/20/12 at 20:21:16
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Mortal Games wrote on 05/19/12 at 22:44:15:
because I know the rivalry between brasilians and argentinians,

Pele said the same of Romario.
  

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Re: UEFA Champions League 2012
Reply #16 - 05/20/12 at 00:53:59
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What would have happened if Terry had to play the penalty at number 5?  Roll Eyes
  

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Re: UEFA Champions League 2012
Reply #15 - 05/19/12 at 22:44:15
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When asked about Messi recently, Pele responded:
"When Messi's scored 1,283 goals like me, when he's won three World Cups, we'll talk about it."

Wow, He is a very humble guy. I only give him the benefit of a doubt, because I know the rivalry between brasilians and argentinians, but if Messi was playing in those times of slowmotion football and easy defenders, he will score 3,000 goals. Even today, brasilian football have nothing to compare to Europe. As for World Cups it´s a tournament of one week but much more important is the Champions League because a team needs to work all season and there we see the real work of coaches and automatic movements of all team. One year work of national championships and Champions League represent much more than one weak event for me.
http://sports.yahoo.com/soccer/news?slug=ycn-11071584
I never heard of this guy too! New Jersey State Youth Soccer??  Roll Eyes 

Maradona and Messi are the best. Argentinian player as natural talent that I never saw anywhere. If someone has doubts about Messi, just put the tv in slowmotion and look at what he does with his foot.
  

It has been said that chess players are good at two things, Chess and Excuses.  It has also been said that Chess is where all excuses fail! In order to win you must dare to fail!
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Re: UEFA Champions League 2012
Reply #14 - 05/19/12 at 22:19:10
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The commentators here pointed out that in CLUB events, England has never lost a penalty shoot out to a German team!  Shocked

But yes, it would be nice if England could call on someone like Drogba in the clutch.
  
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Re: UEFA Champions League 2012
Reply #13 - 05/19/12 at 22:10:12
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Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 05/19/12 at 21:16:41:
Penalties!! Who do you think will win?

Very strange! In England it is a known fact that German teams always beat English teams on penalties.
I can only guess that the fact that the Chelsea goalie is Czech and that only two of the penalty takers were English made all the difference.
  
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Re: UEFA Champions League 2012
Reply #12 - 05/19/12 at 21:16:41
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Penalties!! Who do you think will win?
  

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Re: UEFA Champions League 2012
Reply #11 - 04/26/12 at 17:10:03
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Gerd Müller and Romario belong to my favourites. They all in all only play 10 minutes a match but score two or three times in those few minutes.
  

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Re: UEFA Champions League 2012
Reply #10 - 04/26/12 at 16:00:48
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Claus Jensen wrote on 04/25/12 at 13:16:06:
well, he wasn't on top of his game last night. That's for sure!

The discussion of who's the best player ever is a very difficult one. How to compare players when so many factors come into consideration? Opponents and team mates being some of them...position played being another...performances over time...influence on team...behaviour...etc etc
Personally I would root for (in no particular order)

Di Stefano
Beckenbauer
Pelé
Maradona
Cruyff
Moore
Messi
Zidane

probably forgot some great players... Smiley


? - Moore (?)
Don´t forget the ultimate attackers:
- van Basten
- Gerd Mueller
  

The older, the better - over 2200 and still rising.
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Re: UEFA Champions League 2012
Reply #9 - 04/26/12 at 08:41:04
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In any case we wont see my taxeuros at work in the final Smiley
  

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Re: UEFA Champions League 2012
Reply #8 - 04/25/12 at 13:16:06
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well, he wasn't on top of his game last night. That's for sure!

The discussion of who's the best player ever is a very difficult one. How to compare players when so many factors come into consideration? Opponents and team mates being some of them...position played being another...performances over time...influence on team...behaviour...etc etc
Personally I would root for (in no particular order)

Di Stefano
Beckenbauer
Pelé
Maradona
Cruyff
Moore
Messi
Zidane

probably forgot some great players... Smiley
  

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Re: UEFA Champions League 2012
Reply #7 - 04/25/12 at 06:40:06
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Still the best player ever? Wink
  

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Re: UEFA Champions League 2012
Reply #6 - 03/09/12 at 22:20:08
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Jupp53 wrote on 03/09/12 at 11:57:58:
Interesting. When it's about football I have to agree to nearly everything Willempie is writing. *thumbsup*

To talk about the greatest ever is in football even more difficult than in chess. Put Pele to Peru, put Cruyff to Iran, but Beckenbauer to Angola. Forwards and offensive midfields have it a lot easier than goalies ....

And imagine you're a defender. When you get a couple of shutouts in a row it is the goalkeeper who did it. Or alternatively who knows the German player that "disabled" Messi in the WC? Wink
  

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Re: UEFA Champions League 2012
Reply #5 - 03/09/12 at 11:57:58
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Interesting. When it's about football I have to agree to nearly everything Willempie is writing. *thumbsup*

To talk about the greatest ever is in football even more difficult than in chess. Put Pele to Peru, put Cruyff to Iran, but Beckenbauer to Angola. Forwards and offensive midfields have it a lot easier than goalies ....
  

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Re: UEFA Champions League 2012
Reply #4 - 03/09/12 at 09:39:59
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 03/09/12 at 00:01:17:
Gary Linekar, Michael Owen and Wayne Rooney all agree. Arsene Wenger said last season that Messi is the best ever, without question.

Like I said, it's the spur of the moment. He probably is the current best player, but you always get comments like that when someone is performing great. Plus I wouldnt take them as a reference. 
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But it's true. Pele's life-time achievements appear to be untouchable. Pele scored more than 1200 goals in all competitions! Maradona's dribbling skills are still incredible. His "goal of the century" against England is one of the most memorable goals in World Cup history.

The only thing that you can bring in against Pele is that his teammates are underrated, in particular Garrincha.
Quote:

I will stick with my previous statement. In terms of making his teammates better, finding and creating open passing lanes, and finishing, Lionel Messi is at least as good as Pele, and FAR better than Maradona was. 

Like I said it is easier to excel when playing alongside Xavi and Iniesta (likewise for Pele, who had players like Garrincha and Tostao with him). Last world cup was a perfect illustration, when they were humiliated by the Germans and he was unable to make an impression. 
It's a bit different when you play with Napoli or the '86 Argentinian team.
Quote:

For me, Maradona is perhaps in the top five in the world, but never absolute best. Granted, that is in part because of his disrespect for the game (the Hand of God goal and his drug abuse come to mind). But also his ball-hogging. He created some amazing feats when he got into trouble due to his selfishness, but he also lost the ball needlessly countless times as well.

Well I am keeping the position open for best player ever anyway Wink

Btw on the pitch Maradona often seemed selfish, but almost always it had a function.
  

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Re: UEFA Champions League 2012
Reply #3 - 03/09/12 at 00:01:17
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Gary Linekar, Michael Owen and Wayne Rooney all agree. Arsene Wenger said last season that Messi is the best ever, without question.

But it's true. Pele's life-time achievements appear to be untouchable. Pele scored more than 1200 goals in all competitions! Maradona's dribbling skills are still incredible. His "goal of the century" against England is one of the most memorable goals in World Cup history.

I will stick with my previous statement. In terms of making his teammates better, finding and creating open passing lanes, and finishing, Lionel Messi is at least as good as Pele, and FAR better than Maradona was. 

For me, Maradona is perhaps in the top five in the world, but never absolute best. Granted, that is in part because of his disrespect for the game (the Hand of God goal and his drug abuse come to mind). But also his ball-hogging. He created some amazing feats when he got into trouble due to his selfishness, but he also lost the ball needlessly countless times as well.
  
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Re: UEFA Champions League 2012
Reply #2 - 03/08/12 at 20:26:08
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 03/08/12 at 05:02:30:
All of the top football players in the world agree he's the best they've ever seen.


A bit of a sweeping statement there. 

When asked about Messi recently, Pele responded:

"When Messi's scored 1,283 goals like me, when he's won three World Cups, we'll talk about it."


http://sports.yahoo.com/soccer/news?slug=ycn-11071584

If there was ever such a thing as a one-man team. it was Argentina in the 80s...:  

During the course of the tournament, Maradona attempted or created more than half of Argentina's shots, embarked on 90 dribbles some three times more than any other player and was fouled 53 times winning his team twice as many free kicks as any player.[18][19] Maradona also scored or assisted 10 of Argentina's 14 goals and despite being heavily marked during the final played a crucial part in all three winning goals ensuring that he would be remembered as one of the greatest names in football history.[20][21][22]

If Messi was the best player ever, Argentina would probably be world cup champions now. Some would say Northern Ireland's George Best was the best ever. When those players got on the pitch, things just starting happening straightaway and goals would just go in... and they would score some of those goals and be involved in the others. To not score one goal in the world cup finals as a striker seems to me to exclude him from being the world's greatest player unless he greatly turns it around at the next world cup and the copa americas. He can be hit or miss at times. Scoring five goals in one serious game is impressive no matter what, but Bayer Leverkhusen could have given up. Many players have come and gone better than Messi.    
  
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mTnWfbXk28 
  
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Re: UEFA Champions League 2012
Reply #1 - 03/08/12 at 09:31:44
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I wouldnt call him the best ever, certainly not yet (though I'd say atm he is equal with Cruyff). If you have a team of such a quality playing in your service, it is a little bit easier to shine. Compare that with another Argentinian who led a very mediocre team to the WC or yet another Argentinian who won the European cup 5 times in a row.

The best ever is of course purely personal, but personally I'd go for Maradonna who apart from being exceptional also took the team up a couple of levels..
  

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UEFA Champions League 2012
03/08/12 at 05:02:30
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Wow. 

Again, Wow.

It took me a couple seasons to begin to believe that Messi is one of the best players of all time. But these last two seasons have clinched it for me. Messi really is the best player of all time.

I know, he has not yet won a single World Cup. But he hasn't had teammates of the caliber Pele had.

I absolutely adore Pele's football skill, but Messi is even better! His five goals against Bayern Leverkusen  simply reifies how amazing he is. All of the top football players in the world agree he's the best they've ever seen.
  
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