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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Blackmar Diemer : Five Pawn Gambit (Read 15606 times)
Gambit
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Re: Blackmar Diemer : Five Pawn Gambit
Reply #18 - 04/07/12 at 06:06:09
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I have no idea, other than it is BOOKUP 2000. Honest.
  
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Markovich
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Re: Blackmar Diemer : Five Pawn Gambit
Reply #17 - 04/03/12 at 01:47:15
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Lev, Bookup isn't a chess engine, though there are several that can attach to it. You should say which engine you're using, not what data presentation software. Zarkov, maybe?
  

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Re: Blackmar Diemer : Five Pawn Gambit
Reply #16 - 04/01/12 at 18:46:51
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I consulted Christoph Scheerer's book and while his analysis has been improved on, he admitted that White's piece and temporary initiative are probably not worth five pawns, so it's not as if the assessment of the line has really changed.

If White wishes to rehabilitate this "five pawns for a piece" line then 9.Qe2 (instead of 9.Rh2) 9...Qxd4 10.Qxc2 Qxg4 11.Be3 is interesting, e.g. 11...Nbd7 12.Nge2 preparing 13.0-0-0.  I'm not going to claim that White definitely has enough here, but at least queens stay on the board and White retains active piece play.  As far as I can see all lines following 9.Rh2 are better for Black, even though computers initially like White.

Scheerer mentioned 9.g5!? which may be OK for White anyway, e.g. 9...Nd5 10.Rh2 Nxc3 11.bxc3 followed by 12.Bc4, while 9...Qxd4 10.gxf6 Qxf6 11.Qxf6 gxf6 12.Nf3 is an improvement for White over the lines we've analysed earlier as Black 'only' has four pawns for the piece, and has a weakened kingside pawn structure.

  
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Re: Blackmar Diemer : Five Pawn Gambit
Reply #15 - 03/31/12 at 19:49:41
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1) In your given line, after 21...Nb6 there is no equality. 22.Re3+ Kd7 and it's a game, yes, but any decent engine gives black an edge - Rybka thinks it's about 2/3 of a pawn.

2) Why the heck would black play for repetition with 17...N5f6? And why would he then play 19...f6?

3) 17...N7f6 is better - why would black ever want to move his beautifully centralised knight? You're better than this shoddy tripe. What does white play now? Black has a plan of slowly untangling and then pushing h5-... etc. His five pawns quite nicely limit what white's extra piece can do. There is no equality here either. White might well have chances - that's what happens in unbalanced positions. But black has more chances. Black is better (Rybka suggests around 1 pawn's worth).



« Last Edit: 03/31/12 at 21:55:31 by Markovich »  

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Re: Blackmar Diemer : Five Pawn Gambit
Reply #14 - 03/30/12 at 22:31:06
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MNb wrote on 03/30/12 at 22:14:27:
Gambit wrote on 03/30/12 at 20:17:00:
I use the computer to double-check my analyses.

Something you used to condemn vehemently.
Thanks for the correction.
Of course 11...Qxf3 is a bad move, as it a) doesn't win an additional pawn and b) helps White developing.

11...Qxh5 12.Qxh5 Nxf6 13.O-O-O Nf6 (Craig Evans) is still open, so this Five Pawns Gambit is not rehabilitated yet.




12...Nxf6 is an illegal move. If you mean 12...Nxh5, then it makes sense. At this point BOOKUP 2000 gives 14 Nf3 Nbd7 15 Bd4 e6 16 Nb5 Nd5 17 Nc3 N5f6 18 Nb5 Nd5 19 Nc3 f6 20 Nxd5  ed5 21 Rd3  =
  
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Re: Blackmar Diemer : Five Pawn Gambit
Reply #13 - 03/30/12 at 22:14:27
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Gambit wrote on 03/30/12 at 20:17:00:
I use the computer to double-check my analyses.

Something you used to condemn vehemently.
Thanks for the correction.
Of course 11...Qxf3 is a bad move, as it a) doesn't win an additional pawn and b) helps White developing.

11...Qxh5 12.Qxh5 Nxf6 13.O-O-O Nf6 (Craig Evans) is still open, so this Five Pawns Gambit is not rehabilitated yet.


  

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Gambit
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Re: Blackmar Diemer : Five Pawn Gambit
Reply #12 - 03/30/12 at 20:17:00
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Gambit wrote on 03/11/12 at 22:51:13:
The actual move order is 1 d4 d5 2 e4 dxe4 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 f3 Bf5 5 g4 Bg6 6 h4 exf3 7 Qxf3 c6 8 h5 Bxc2 9 Rh2 Qxd4 10 Be3! (My new move!) Qxg4 11 Rxc2 Qxh5 12 Qxh5 Nxh5 13 000! Nd7

And now 14 Nb5! cxb5  15 Bxb5 Nf6 16 Rc7 a6 17 Bxd7 Nxd7 18 Rdd7 h5 :

  19 Nf3 h4   20 Rxb7 h3 21 Nh2 Rc8+ 22 Kd2 Rh5 =
  19 Rxb7 h4 20 Nh3 f6  leads to an equal position by move 27.

Analyses with BOOKUP 2000.

I must caution that there are plenty of ways for Black to go wrong here. My practice on the Internet Chess Club with this line yielded a great many wins and only a few losses and draws.


Correction: 11...Qxf3 12 Nxf3 Nxh5  13 000 Nd7 14 Ne5! then see BOOKUP 2000 computer analyses in my later post.

I use the computer to double-check my analyses.
  
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Re: Blackmar Diemer : Five Pawn Gambit
Reply #11 - 03/30/12 at 06:12:08
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Even if no moves at all were given in this thread's posts, one could easily identify it as a "d-Pawn Specials" thread!  Grin
  

What do people mean when they say "Chess is the pawn of the soul"?
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Re: Blackmar Diemer : Five Pawn Gambit
Reply #10 - 03/30/12 at 03:26:01
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Are you analyzing with the assistance of a computer, LDZ? Wow, now that's something.
For the record, 14.Ng1-e5! is an illegal move. Maybe that's why you gave it an exclam? Or, given the yawn, maybe you were just sleepy?
  

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Re: Blackmar Diemer : Five Pawn Gambit
Reply #9 - 03/29/12 at 18:01:03
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Since you asked, you can put the beer in the trash basket.

The BOOKUP 2000 computer still gives White an edge after 13...Nf6 14 Ne5! e6 15 Bg2 Nbd7 16 Nb5! cxb5 17 Bb7 Ne5 18 Ba8 Nd5 19 Bd5 ed5 20 Bd4 Nf3 21 Ba7 Kd7 22 Rd5 Ke6 23 Rd8 with advantage for White.

Yawn... another so-called refutation beaten off.
« Last Edit: 03/30/12 at 01:33:50 by Gambit »  
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Re: Blackmar Diemer : Five Pawn Gambit
Reply #8 - 03/26/12 at 20:32:51
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There are so many improvements for black that it barely seems worth mentioning... 4...Bf5?! is inferior, 6...ef is probably questionable, etc.

I'll just mention that instead of 13...Nd7, 13...Nf6! is a massive improvement. Then 14.Nb5 Na6! (development!) leaves black with the preferable position. He can play things like ...Rd8 (returning the a-pawn - Lev often forgets that his opponent can return material rather than clinging greedily) and ...Nd5 (Ooh, white has sacced so many pawns that he has nothing to break open a clever blockade on a file, if executed properly) - at best white is grovelling for a draw, but I'd take black's five pawns for a piece any day.

Yawn... another one refuted. Now where did I put that beer?  Roll Eyes
  

"Give a man a pawn, and he'll smell a rat. Give a man a piece, and he'll smell a patzer." - Me.

"If others have seen further than me, it is because giants have been standing on my shoulders."
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Re: Blackmar Diemer : Five Pawn Gambit
Reply #7 - 03/19/12 at 19:53:10
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Excellent chances, provided White plays aggressively.
  
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Re: Blackmar Diemer : Five Pawn Gambit
Reply #6 - 03/15/12 at 23:56:27
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It's the theory that counts on this board, Lev, not anyone's record in club play. What's your view of White's objective chances?
  

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Gambit
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Re: Blackmar Diemer : Five Pawn Gambit
Reply #5 - 03/11/12 at 22:51:13
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The actual move order is 1 d4 d5 2 e4 dxe4 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 f3 Bf5 5 g4 Bg6 6 h4 exf3 7 Qxf3 c6 8 h5 Bxc2 9 Rh2 Qxd4 10 Be3! (My new move!) Qxg4 11 Rxc2 Qxh5 12 Qxh5 Nxh5 13 000! Nd7

And now 14 Nb5! cxb5  15 Bxb5 Nf6 16 Rc7 a6 17 Bxd7 Nxd7 18 Rdd7 h5 :

  19 Nf3 h4   20 Rxb7 h3 21 Nh2 Rc8+ 22 Kd2 Rh5 =
  19 Rxb7 h4 20 Nh3 f6  leads to an equal position by move 27.

Analyses with BOOKUP 2000.

I must caution that there are plenty of ways for Black to go wrong here. My practice on the Internet Chess Club with this line yielded a great many wins and only a few losses and draws.
  
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Re: Blackmar Diemer : Five Pawn Gambit
Reply #4 - 03/11/12 at 14:59:41
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I had not looked at the position I just noticed that Qxh5 was impossible. After Gilchrist is a legend's post I assumed that 7. Qxf3 was meant. I still think that long variations should always be posted as pgn's to avoid such problems. Especially if it's at the start of a new thread.

14.Nb5 may be a bit better for White but not by much. cxb5,Nf6 returning the piece on d7 (perhaps after a6) and then f6 to get the king out looks playable (after g5,h5 the black pawns do not look too slow to me). I did not bother to look for the other thread where this might have been discussed (a link would have been nice).

To me the "Five pawn gambit" question is pretty pointless, gambit usually means sacrifice as somebody who uses that moniker should know. I suggest the catchy name: "two-pawn-gambit after exchanging three pawns for a bishop"

(Why you add "hara-kiri" I don't get either but let's not go into that)

  
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