Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) QG player against Reti / English (Read 19491 times)
Laramonet
Senior Member
****
Offline


Gwyddbwll am byth !

Posts: 272
Joined: 03/16/07
Re: QG player against Reti / English
Reply #36 - 04/02/16 at 12:25:46
Post Tools
All,
After all this time I finally had to face the line, in fact virtually playing against myself. I did okay but had to face a form of the Catalan I wouldn't normally having played e6, d5, Nf6, Be7, 0-0, c5 and b6.
To rephrase, I play the Tartakower and would respond to the Catalan 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.g3 dc 5.Bg2 Bb4+. When facing the English with g3, as I play as White, 1.c4 e6 2.g3 d5 3.Bg2 dc is often recommended as a good line for Black. However, Marin makes a good case for 4.Na3 Ba3 5.ba, answering 5..., Ne7 with 6.Bb2 0-0 7.Qc2.
I'm happy with the line 1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 e6 3.b3 c5 that Davies recommends in the Dynamic Reti intending d4, Nh6, f6 and e5. But if white follows the Marin recommendation where should Black be going ? Does he do best to avoid Nf6 ? If not, why is 1.c4 e6 2.g3 d5 3.Bg2 dc a clearer path than 3..., Nf6 4.Nf3 dc ?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Oblonskij
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 71
Joined: 10/27/10
Re: QG player against Reti / English
Reply #35 - 05/09/12 at 09:49:28
Post Tools
there was a lot of talk about using a 1. Nf3 e6 2. c4 d5 move order. Can anyone enlighten me what the advantage of playing e6 first is? Is there a better move than 2. ...d5 if white goes for the 2. g3 move order?

I like to play with an early c4 e6 for black and it's consistent with my repertoire, but i do have a bit of a problem after 1. Nf3 d5 2. g3 because i don't want to play a KIA with e6.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2884
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: QG player against Reti / English
Reply #34 - 05/08/12 at 09:40:46
Post Tools
The great thing about chess is that most assessments are largely subjective, so it would be very strange for people not to disagree about the exact assessment of positions, GM's do it all the time. On this one though I think we're both quite close. What is more of a mystery to me is the goings on in the ...c6 line, which I intend to look at next!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BPaulsen
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love Light Squares!

Posts: 1702
Location: Anaheim, CA, USA
Joined: 11/02/08
Gender: Male
Re: QG player against Reti / English
Reply #33 - 05/08/12 at 01:03:51
Post Tools
Keano wrote on 05/07/12 at 15:25:53:
I appreciate what you're saying and it is a fairly solid position for Black, to say its completely equal I think is a bit of a bold statement though, but I accept I could well be wrong, I just think Whites more flexible structure should count for something. Isn't the line with ...Ra7 the (very!) old Miles-Chernin game. Remember looking at that years ago I think theres a thread here somewhere, I thought White was slightly better there also but of course it ended in a draw!


In Miles-Chernin, the latter's ...Qa8 is the only reason white could obtain anything. Other moves keep the game level without having to do anything remarkable.

I defended black's cause in the thread you're thinking of, citing GM A. Yermolinsky's opinion. I don't see any reason to doubt either his opinion, or my own. White's flexibility may be useful in practical play, but that's not a theoretical evaluation.

By the way, there's a significant difference between "equal chances" and "completely equal". I didn't say the latter, I did say the former.
  

2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE.

FIDE based on just 27 games.
Back to top
YIMAIM  
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2884
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: QG player against Reti / English
Reply #32 - 05/07/12 at 15:25:53
Post Tools
I appreciate what you're saying and it is a fairly solid position for Black, to say its completely equal I think is a bit of a bold statement though, but I accept I could well be wrong, I just think Whites more flexible structure should count for something. Isn't the line with ...Ra7 the (very!) old Miles-Chernin game. Remember looking at that years ago I think theres a thread here somewhere, I thought White was slightly better there also but of course it ended in a draw!

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BPaulsen
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love Light Squares!

Posts: 1702
Location: Anaheim, CA, USA
Joined: 11/02/08
Gender: Male
Re: QG player against Reti / English
Reply #31 - 05/07/12 at 13:54:41
Post Tools
Black isn't the only one with a static queenside. Notice that b5 and b4 are both equally weak squares, which is why ...a5 is possible to begin with. Should white play d4  (his remaining dynamic pawn break) at some point, then they would basically be structurally symmetrical.

Plans with ...Nd5 have to be careful white doesn't use a plan involving the Sicilian-like e4 in circumstances where d4 won't be possible to exploit. These aren't fatal, but they would at least improve white's position in some circumstances.

The Ra7 cannot be exploited in the 7.d3 line. Or at least GMs haven't been able to in practice. Or me in analysis.

Aside from that, I maintain white has nothing more than an interesting game with equal chances. You might like white for purely practical reasons, but there isn't any concrete reason to think he's headed on to greater things.

That pawn sacrifice in the ...c6 line is trouble for black right now, there is no way to clearly limit white's compensation. One gets tired of playing the, "Black to play and hang himself" game in analysis. I can't even begin to imagine how fun that would be over the board.
  

2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE.

FIDE based on just 27 games.
Back to top
YIMAIM  
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2884
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: QG player against Reti / English
Reply #30 - 05/07/12 at 08:00:16
Post Tools
In work now so not got a board in front of me but doesn't playing ...a5 for Black leave his Q-side a bit static, and eventually, after an exchange of light square bishops say, some nice juicy squares for White on b5 and c4. Not saying Black can't play it of course, but at least there is some potential there for the future from Whites point of view. For Black I think I'd prefer a plan involving ...Nd5. Like I said before I still dont think this line is much at all for White, just that in abstract terms this line gives him more chance to create something than the ...c6 line does. I'd say its a nibble for White, nothing more.  Mind you I just looked at the update on the main site and the pawn sac for White in the ...c6 line looks very interesting...at least in a practical game it seems nice to play at first glance, but a pawn is a pawn also.

On 7.d3 it surely must be better for White to have the Black rook on a7 than b8 I would have thought, so perhaps this is the more accurate move order.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BPaulsen
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love Light Squares!

Posts: 1702
Location: Anaheim, CA, USA
Joined: 11/02/08
Gender: Male
Re: QG player against Reti / English
Reply #29 - 05/07/12 at 01:49:22
Post Tools
Keano wrote on 05/06/12 at 14:33:00:
I'm not claiming its much for White but he definitely is for preference after say 14.Rfc1 with ideas of Qa3 and playing for the b4 break at the appropriate moment.


From 14.Rfc1 Ba8 18.Qa3 a5, then what? The position looks equal to me, so I assume you had some sort of plan to deal with the prevention of b4 that both me and the engine miss. I messed around with the resulting positions and reached the conclusion black has nothing to fear, but I welcome you to show the way.

Quote:
Regarding 7.d3!? - if this prevents Black establishing the ..a6, ..b6 structure on the Queenside by allowing White a4-a5 then I agree you are completely right...


It doesn't, black has to be willing to play ...Ra7 to achieve it, but he has to know that's the objective.
  

2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE.

FIDE based on just 27 games.
Back to top
YIMAIM  
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2884
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: QG player against Reti / English
Reply #28 - 05/06/12 at 14:33:00
Post Tools
BPaulsen wrote on 05/05/12 at 19:45:40:
5...Nbd7 6.Qxc4 c5 7.Qb3 Rb8 and by all means figure out how white is trying to create something. Continuations like 8.a4 b6 9.d3 Bd6 10.Na3 a6 11.Nc4 Bc7 12.Bd2 0-0 13.0-0 Bb7 are completely uninspiring, and black didn't have to do anything notable. I've checked the alternatives - even less inspiring. Maybe you've got something amazing up your sleeve.


Thats kind of a typical position you've quoted there that can come about through various move orders. I'm not claiming its much for White but he definitely is for preference after say 14.Rfc1 with ideas of Qa3 and playing for the b4 break at the appropriate moment. Thats kind of what I meant by saying White is the one trying to create. Its not that I'm saying Black should be desperate to avoid this mind, just that the other ...c6 line seems to be holding up better where White doesn't get this nagging pressure. Ultimately its personal preference and the whims of fashion I suppose, but its not an entirely innocuous line at all for White and deserves serious respect.

Regarding 7.d3!? - if this prevents Black establishing the ..a6, ..b6 structure on the Queenside by allowing White a4-a5 then I agree you are completely right, 7.d3 would be a more accurate move order. And it does make sense not to be dancing around with the Queen until entirely necessary. I've not checked it but very interesting if true. Something like 7...a6 8.Qb3 Bd6 9.a4 Rb8 10.a5 is kind of what I'd think White was ideally looking for. I suppose the reason 7.d3 is not more popular is that White players think Black can just reply 7...b6 but it seems like 8.Nd4 should be good for White, although Ponomariov played 7...b6 in a 2011 game so may be more here than meets the eye. Even more mystifying is that his strong GM opponent Eljanov didn't play 8.Nd4 so we dont know what Ponomariov intended...he can give an exchange with ...Ne5 or a pawn with ...Nd5. In both cases its not clear Black has sufficent compensation, but its also clear many White players may wish to avoid this kind of thing also.
« Last Edit: 05/06/12 at 22:50:04 by Keano »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BPaulsen
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love Light Squares!

Posts: 1702
Location: Anaheim, CA, USA
Joined: 11/02/08
Gender: Male
Re: QG player against Reti / English
Reply #27 - 05/05/12 at 19:45:40
Post Tools
Keano wrote on 05/05/12 at 12:17:48:
Very interesting discussion here. I think 5...c6 for Black  is actually the more solid continuation at the moment, although you could argue its personal preference. I don't see any clear way for Black to an easy life in the system 5...Nbd7 6.Qxc4 c5 7.Qb3!? followed by a4,d3,Na3 in all the games it seems to be White looking to create something. 5...c6 on the other hand is more clear-cut and looks like getting more and more worked out.


5...Nbd7 6.Qxc4 c5 7.Qb3 Rb8 and by all means figure out how white is trying to create something. Continuations like 8.a4 b6 9.d3 Bd6 10.Na3 a6 11.Nc4 Bc7 12.Bd2 0-0 13.0-0 Bb7 are completely uninspiring, and black didn't have to do anything notable. I've checked the alternatives - even less inspiring. Maybe you've got something amazing up your sleeve.

When all black has to know is a general set-up to emerge satisfied with the opening it's a bad sign.

7.d3, on the other hand, takes some knowledge from black.
  

2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE.

FIDE based on just 27 games.
Back to top
YIMAIM  
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2884
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: QG player against Reti / English
Reply #26 - 05/05/12 at 12:17:48
Post Tools
John Bartholomew wrote on 04/04/12 at 06:17:21:
Agreed, 5.Qa4+ Nbd7 is solid for Black. In the March update I examine the game Naiditsch-Papin (from the recently completed European Championship) which featured 6.Qxc4 a6 7.Qb3 c5 8.a4 Rb8 8.a5, discouraging the b-pawn advance. White has some nice positional ideas here, and I feel like his position is definitely the more pleasant to play. I'm probably biased though, cause I like White in a lot of these lines Smiley. Of course there's other lines - the immediate 6...c5 being a major alternative. The tremendous flexibility of both setups makes this a pretty tough one speak about in terms of absolute theoretical advantages, imo.

I assume in the line 1.Nf3 e6 2.c4 d5 3.g3 dxc4 4.Qa4+ the intended equalizer is 4...Nd7 5.Bg2 a6, using the tempo to achieve a quick ...b7-b5. This looks like a critical test, but I'm not sure it's so clear-cut. Delchev, for instance, claims a small advange for White in this line citing Svidler-Kramnik from last year. Definitely something to investigate.

I would argue that 5.Qa4+ c6 6.Qxa4 b5 is unusually popular at the moment. I was kinda shocked to see how many GM games have been played in this line already in 2012 and in the past year overall. Yes 5.Qa4+ is the main line of the Neo-Catalan, but you have to remember that historically Black has played 5...Nbd7 more than twice as often as 5...c6. Thus, to see so many sharp lines at GM level with 5...c6 6.Qxa4 b5 is noteworthy. Compared to 5...Nbd7 these lines are way more easily subjected to exhaustive computer analysis, so I suspect we'll have a more clear evaluation of 5...c6 by year's end.


Very interesting discussion here. I think 5...c6 for Black  is actually the more solid continuation at the moment, although you could argue its personal preference. I don't see any clear way for Black to an easy life in the system 5...Nbd7 6.Qxc4 c5 7.Qb3!? followed by a4,d3,Na3 in all the games it seems to be White looking to create something. 5...c6 on the other hand is more clear-cut and looks like getting more and more worked out.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Pantu
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 298
Joined: 12/30/06
Re: QG player against Reti / English
Reply #25 - 04/07/12 at 09:40:57
Post Tools
To partially answer my own questions: the slightly more profitable version of the 5 Qa4+ line I had in mind turns out to be the variation after

1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 e6 3 g3 d5 4 Bg2 dxc4 5 Qa4+ Nbd7 6 Qxc4 a6 and now 7 Qc2!? c5 8 Nf3.

As far as I can tell, if black is playing Nbd7 in the Neo-Catalan he can't avoid this position as white just plays d2-d4 at the appropriate moment.  Interesting!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Pantu
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 298
Joined: 12/30/06
Re: QG player against Reti / English
Reply #24 - 04/07/12 at 09:20:16
Post Tools
There is also this possibility, for which I have a question:

1 c4 e6 2 g3 d5 3 Bg2

and, like with the Catalan, having the bishop on g2 and not the knight on f3 gives white more pressure along with diagonal which may give him some extra resources if black takes on c4 immediately.

My first guess is that 3...dxc4 4 Qa4+ c6 5 Qxc4 b5 should transpose to the 3...Nf6 4 Nf3 dxc4 lines under discussion after white retreats, and looking at the games it seems that this is true.

3...dxc4 4 Qa4+ Nd7 5 Qxc4 is another case.  Here 5...a6 allows 6 d4 with a transposition to a slightly more favourable than normal version of the 5 Qa4+ Catalan proper (but still not terribly much).

but 3...dxc4 4 Qa4+ Nd7 5 Qxc4 c5! seems to force the transposition to the main "Neo-Catalan" lines after e.g. 6 Nf3 a6 7 Qc2 Nf6.

So the question is: am I missing anything here? Does white have any profitable ways to deviate?

The other question would be whether Marin's Na3 ideas have been completely defused or not...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BPaulsen
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love Light Squares!

Posts: 1702
Location: Anaheim, CA, USA
Joined: 11/02/08
Gender: Male
Re: QG player against Reti / English
Reply #23 - 04/05/12 at 01:13:41
Post Tools
I agree with the comments related to 5.Qa4 c6.

I don't think black should allow a4-a5, preventing b6 in the case of 5...Nbd7. I've found in analysis he can work around the white attempts to get it in.
  

2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE.

FIDE based on just 27 games.
Back to top
YIMAIM  
IP Logged
 
John Bartholomew
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline



Posts: 36
Location: St. Paul
Joined: 06/08/11
Gender: Male
Re: QG player against Reti / English
Reply #22 - 04/04/12 at 06:17:21
Post Tools
BPaulsen wrote on 03/31/12 at 21:29:23:
John Bartholomew wrote on 03/31/12 at 19:48:41:
BPaulsen, can you explain why you believe 1.Nf3 e6 2.c4 d5 3.g3 dxc4 is a clear equalizer? I'm curious...maybe you have discussed this in a previous thread?

The line 1.Nf3 e6 2.c4 d5 3.g3 Nf6 4.Bg2 dxc4 is currently being debated on the highest level. Specifically, 5.Qa4+ c6 6.Qxc4 b5 and now either 7.Qb3!? or 7.Qc2 (Delchev's recommendation) are incredibly hot at the moment. Much of my March update will be devoted to these lines (should be up in a couple days).


I think the 1.Nf3 e6 2.c4 d5 3.g3 dxc4 is a clear equalizer in that particular position due to black being free to spend an early tempo on something other than ...Nf6. The Neo-Catalan Accepted (1.Nf3 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.g3 d5 4.Bg2 dxc4) isn't as clear, but I feel black to be fine. Fashion has always centered on 5.Qa4+, so it's not just recent that it's hot, it's the de facto main line of the Neo-Catalan, not that there isn't something to be said for the other fifth moves... It just never truly leaves GM practice.

5.Qa4+ Nbd7 has given me significant reason for pause when it comes to recommending the white cause. It isn't as ambitious as 5...c6, but it's also difficult to pressure.

I would very much welcome being shown some kind of white advantage, of course. Is there a particular variation you feel black's life to be unavoidably difficult in?


Agreed, 5.Qa4+ Nbd7 is solid for Black. In the March update I examine the game Naiditsch-Papin (from the recently completed European Championship) which featured 6.Qxc4 a6 7.Qb3 c5 8.a4 Rb8 8.a5, discouraging the b-pawn advance. White has some nice positional ideas here, and I feel like his position is definitely the more pleasant to play. I'm probably biased though, cause I like White in a lot of these lines Smiley. Of course there's other lines - the immediate 6...c5 being a major alternative. The tremendous flexibility of both setups makes this a pretty tough one speak about in terms of absolute theoretical advantages, imo.

I assume in the line 1.Nf3 e6 2.c4 d5 3.g3 dxc4 4.Qa4+ the intended equalizer is 4...Nd7 5.Bg2 a6, using the tempo to achieve a quick ...b7-b5. This looks like a critical test, but I'm not sure it's so clear-cut. Delchev, for instance, claims a small advange for White in this line citing Svidler-Kramnik from last year. Definitely something to investigate.

I would argue that 5.Qa4+ c6 6.Qxa4 b5 is unusually popular at the moment. I was kinda shocked to see how many GM games have been played in this line already in 2012 and in the past year overall. Yes 5.Qa4+ is the main line of the Neo-Catalan, but you have to remember that historically Black has played 5...Nbd7 more than twice as often as 5...c6. Thus, to see so many sharp lines at GM level with 5...c6 6.Qxa4 b5 is noteworthy. Compared to 5...Nbd7 these lines are way more easily subjected to exhaustive computer analysis, so I suspect we'll have a more clear evaluation of 5...c6 by year's end.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo