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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) QI against 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. g3 move order? (Read 25316 times)
FirebrandX
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Re: QI against 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. g3 move order?
Reply #27 - 10/10/12 at 19:37:27
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Actually it's more due to centaur style of chess being considerably stronger than straight OTB performances. An opening must have a real concrete and complicated advantage in order to have winning chances on ICCF. Openings that merely have a psychological advantage may work quite well OTB, but they simply don't have the same effect when deep computer analysis is involved.

So in the case of that line, white's advantage is all smoke and mirrors. Hence, the better performance for black.
  
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Re: QI against 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. g3 move order?
Reply #26 - 10/08/12 at 11:44:33
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What a dull, non curious approach Smiley

Maybe intriguing mind, because that line after 9 e3 is doing quite reasonably for white in normal over the board practice (a very normal +40 or so elo and a little >50% for the 1-200 or so ~IM strength average people on my database of TWICs.).

I'd presume that the really bad scores had to be down to people stumbling into this, but presumably that doesn't happen so much in correspondence.
  
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FirebrandX
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Re: QI against 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. g3 move order?
Reply #25 - 10/05/12 at 18:30:15
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Markovich wrote on 10/05/12 at 18:14:18:
FirebrandX wrote on 10/04/12 at 07:37:11:
On ICCF, I've run into those 3.g3 specialists, whom bank on the rather high performance of this move order as their bread 'n butter. It's been my experience that immediately playing c5 and forcing them into a "Fianchetto Benoni" takes the sting out of their whole opening prep. I damn near beat a 2500 player doing this, as the variation gives white's computer nothing to bite on in terms of a lasting advantage.


Well, White doesn't have to go into a Benoni, but can play 4.Nf3.  Personally I prefer White in the lines that go 4...cxd4 5.Nxd4 d5 6.Bg2 e5 7.Nf3.  White has a very nice, hypermodern game.  Of course after 5.Nxd4, White also has to reckon with moves like 5...e6, 5...a6 and 5...Qc7.  Theoretically these lines are classified as Symmetrical English.  In many cases as White I am willilng to gambit the c-pawn.  It's always a game of chess, but White seems to be white enough, and playing this way better suits the style of someone who likes open positions.

On the other hand, I have less confidence in 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.Nf3, since this opens up other, promising possibilities for Black.


I'm just speaking from experience. To date, none of the 3.g3 specialists I have faced went for anything other than 4.d5. This is because 4.d5 performs about 5% better than 4.Nf3 in the ICCF archives. For example in your line (which is the main variation): 4.Nf3 cxd4 5.Nxd4 d5 6.Bg2 e5 7.Nf3 and now 7...d4 8.0-0 Nc6 9.e3 gives black a choice between Be7 at 53% performance and Bc5 at 55% performance. Any variation that hands black the better performance over white is considered a wasted white on ICCF. There are a few extremely rare cases where this can change with new ideas found (like in the case of the early c5 QID that white can now punish with a double pawn-sac), but most of the time the opening is abandoned in favor of better performing moves.
  
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Markovich
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Re: QI against 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. g3 move order?
Reply #24 - 10/05/12 at 18:14:18
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FirebrandX wrote on 10/04/12 at 07:37:11:
On ICCF, I've run into those 3.g3 specialists, whom bank on the rather high performance of this move order as their bread 'n butter. It's been my experience that immediately playing c5 and forcing them into a "Fianchetto Benoni" takes the sting out of their whole opening prep. I damn near beat a 2500 player doing this, as the variation gives white's computer nothing to bite on in terms of a lasting advantage.


Well, White doesn't have to go into a Benoni, but can play 4.Nf3.  Personally I prefer White in the lines that go 4...cxd4 5.Nxd4 d5 6.Bg2 e5 7.Nf3.  White has a very nice, hypermodern game.  Of course after 5.Nxd4, White also has to reckon with moves like 5...e6, 5...a6 and 5...Qc7.  Theoretically these lines are classified as Symmetrical English.  In many cases as White I am willilng to gambit the c-pawn.  It's always a game of chess, but White seems to be white enough, and playing this way better suits the style of someone who likes open positions.

On the other hand, I have less confidence in 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.Nf3, since this opens up other, promising possibilities for Black.
  

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Re: QI against 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. g3 move order?
Reply #23 - 10/04/12 at 09:19:52
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FirebrandX wrote on 10/04/12 at 07:37:11:
On ICCF, I've run into those 3.g3 specialists, whom bank on the rather high performance of this move order as their bread 'n butter. It's been my experience that immediately playing c5 and forcing them into a "Fianchetto Benoni" takes the sting out of their whole opening prep. I damn near beat a 2500 player doing this, as the variation gives white's computer nothing to bite on in terms of a lasting advantage.

While Avrukh hoped for an advantage here back in 2010.  Cool
  
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FirebrandX
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Re: QI against 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. g3 move order?
Reply #22 - 10/04/12 at 07:37:11
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On ICCF, I've run into those 3.g3 specialists, whom bank on the rather high performance of this move order as their bread 'n butter. It's been my experience that immediately playing c5 and forcing them into a "Fianchetto Benoni" takes the sting out of their whole opening prep. I damn near beat a 2500 player doing this, as the variation gives white's computer nothing to bite on in terms of a lasting advantage.
  
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Pantu
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Re: QI against 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. g3 move order?
Reply #21 - 09/30/12 at 20:14:36
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My comment isn't make that much sense to me at the moment, but I am very tired (currently I'm thinking the last part should be read separately).  Tiviakov covers:

1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 e6 3 g3 d5 4 Nf3 Bb4+ 5 Bd2 Be7 6 Bg2 c6 7 0-0 b6 followed by ...Ba6 as his main recommendation, but he also looks at Bb7 + Na6 as far as I remember.

1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 e6 3 Nf3 b6 4 g3 Bb4+ 5 Bd2 Be7 6 Bg2 c6 7 0-0 d5 reaching the same position as above

but his main QID line is

1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 e6 3 Nf3 b6 4 g3 Bb7 just going into the main line.

Tiviakov doesn't play the 4...Ba6 QID at all as far as I know!
  
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Re: QI against 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. g3 move order?
Reply #20 - 09/30/12 at 19:28:06
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Pantu wrote on 04/12/12 at 11:50:28:
If you play 3. Nf3 b6 4.g3 Ba6, I'm wondering what lines you play against:

5.Qc2 - fashionable, but 5...Bb4+ 6 Bd2 Be7 is a "safe" way to play and leads to the 4...Bb4+ Catalan.

and especially:

5.b3 Bb4+ 6 Bd2 Be7 as here 7 Qc2 will lead to the same line of the Catalan.

In other words, if you play 3.g3 d5 4 Bg2 Bb4+ 5 Bd2 Be7 you have the same position against the Catalan as against the 4.g3 7948475D5C2904.  White has some possible deviations (Nbd2, responding to Bb4+ and then Be7 with Nc3) but nothing too terrible.

In his recent (excellent, IMO) DVD on the Queen's Indian and Catalan Tiviakov discusses these ideas.


Are you sure about this? If I remember correctly, one of his recommendations against the 4.g3 QID is 4...Bb4+ 5.Bd2 Be7 followed by ...Bb7 and against the Catalan he gives ...Ba6 lines. I don't understand why he didn't cover 4...Ba6 in the QID, as it's very similar to his Catalan line.
  
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Re: QI against 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. g3 move order?
Reply #19 - 04/21/12 at 22:52:31
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Settling on an anti-QID line was an adventure. That's about all I'll say. I actually had an easier time making anti-Hedgehog choices, which was a surprise.
  

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Re: QI against 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. g3 move order?
Reply #18 - 04/21/12 at 21:52:40
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Well, the DVD came out before that game.  In the notes I took from the DVD I don't have 9.Ne5 covered, but it seems rather rare.

I did wonder how this came about via a 1.Nf3 move order, since if you are allowing the hedgehog just deferring d2-d4 means you skip the line where black hasn't castled (and also skip the ...Bb4+ lines) which is one of the reasons I keep played 1.Nf3 Smiley
  
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Re: QI against 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. g3 move order?
Reply #17 - 04/21/12 at 10:32:29
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Pantu wrote on 04/21/12 at 06:38:52:
Ok, that makes sense Smiley  Tiviakov's DVD covers both ...Ba6 and ...Bb7 lines, if you haven't seen it.  He also thinks black is ok in the 4...Bb7 7C4D4258592C05 lines Smiley


I haven't seen it, but I'm not surprised he covered those seeing as they form an integral part of his repertoire against 1.d4.

I thought black was totally okay in the 4...Bb7 QID lines until just recently (even to the point I was starting to think 4...Bb7 would replace 4...Ba6 in terms of popularity), but having studied the continuation in E. L'Ami-S. Tiviakov, Tata Steel 2012, in depth I'm not so sure anymore. Then again, I'd imagine he addresses that game in his DVD since he lost surprisingly easily (maybe that's putting it too harsh - but he didn't equalize in the opening, that much is certain). I thought the 9.Ne5 continuation was innocuous at first glance, but looking deeper it's annoying.

Without knowing exactly which continuations he is advocating I can't say for certain I've got improvements on him (afterall, any improvements of note he's got have to be in the late teens/early twenties for the concerned variations), but I've found a lot of the recent material that's come out recently is already addressed/improved on as part of being thorough.

If I end up missing something theoretically significant that he recommends that shifts the evaluation back to equal my black repertoire will undoubtedly be thankful, but unfortunately I can't go purchasing everything that comes down the pike. Grin

Quote:
Thanks for the mention.  Have you had a look at 4 g3 Bb7 5 Bg2 c5 6 d5 exd5 7 Ng5!? by the way? Kaufman prefers this to 7 Nh4.


I've looked at it, did so some time last year. I decided black was okay stemming from I. Nei-M. Tal, Keres Memorial 1983. Maybe Kaufman had something in mind to deal with it, because I don't. Having checked it I came to the conclusion the Ng5 is worse than the Nh4 in the long run, but that doesn't mean I am incapable of missing something.

I ended up settling for the approach you hit upon in 7.Nh4 as white's best attempt.

That said, it's in a foot note because I side-step the theoretical discussion involving the 5...c5 continuation.
  

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Re: QI against 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. g3 move order?
Reply #16 - 04/21/12 at 06:38:52
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Ok, that makes sense Smiley  Tiviakov's DVD covers both ...Ba6 and ...Bb7 lines, if you haven't seen it.  He also thinks black is ok in the 4...Bb7 QID lines Smiley

Thanks for the mention.  Have you had a look at 4 g3 Bb7 5 Bg2 c5 6 d5 exd5 7 Ng5!? by the way? Kaufman prefers this to 7 Nh4.
  
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Re: QI against 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. g3 move order?
Reply #15 - 04/21/12 at 00:19:14
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Pantu wrote on 04/20/12 at 21:04:18:
I'm not exactly sure what you mean here: you play ...Bb4+ but you think it's bad for black?  I'm curious to see that, as white in the Catalan I'm happier facing 4...dxc4 or 6...dxc4, but I'm not terribly keen on the closed lines even without ...Bb4-e7 thrown in.


I play the 4...Bb4+ variations with ...Bb7 instead of ...Ba6 (or an early ...Nbd7 postponing the development of the bishop altogether). I've always wanted to include the ...Ba6 versions in my repertoire (it'd make life easier as a QID player due to the transposition from 5.Qc2), but I just can't get happy with it.

The Closed without 4...Bb4+ is slightly easier to deal with.

As for being happy in the Open...that depends entirely on which Open variation. The 4...Be7/6...dxc4 is pretty much what Catalan players want to see, regardless of theoretical verdict. Other Open lines aren't as clear - ie: 5...a6 in particular is a line I don't think white can claim a concrete edge in, but rather just a position with very good compensation for the pawn and a lot of unclear play remaining.

Quote:
I am actually surprised that 1 Nf3 d5 2 d4 Nf6 3 c4 e6 4 g3 will be the choice in your book, as I'd somehow gained the impression you thought 4 Nc3 was better.  I wonder when we'll next see a repertoire book give the 5 Bg5 QGD for white?


The Catalan has been my repertoire choice for the last decade plus. I added 4.Nc3 some years back because I'm always adding stuff (knowledge is power, etc.). I never thought it was better, just another option. In modern chess one needs many, many options for practical reasons, because theoretically proving more than temporary advantages is quite difficult in any decent opening. Of course I'm just preaching to the choir, but that explains my personal motivation.

While I would have loved to write something about 5.Bg5 I've got nothing against the Lasker or the Tartakower. A much better analyst than myself will have to tackle them if they want to write the type of opening book I'm working on.

5.Bf4 is my QGD preference, but there too I find myself struggling to pose more than temporary problems. If I were writing a book primarily focused on club players I wouldn't hesitate, but this project I'm working on now is something more ambitious.

It's a fine line as an author - who's your target audience? The more complex lines tend to give more hope for advantages, but leave the less advanced players frustrated. The more simplistic lines frustrate the more advanced players because there is often a route to equality. In the end, it is impossible to write a chess book that makes every happy when it comes to openings.

By the way, Pantu, you actually get mention in my book in the Queen's Indian Defense chapter in one of the foot-notes for a contribution you made on here. In my mind it was a theoretically important (critical for that variation, certainly) contribution.
  

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Re: QI against 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. g3 move order?
Reply #14 - 04/20/12 at 21:04:18
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BPaulsen wrote on 04/18/12 at 02:20:35:
I have defended the 4...Bb4+ Catalan as black for years and I have never liked that particular Catalan transposition as black, even more so since taking a very close look at it as part of writing my book.

Every time I think I've solved black's problems in the ...Ba6 approaches a new one springs up.


I'm not exactly sure what you mean here: you play ...Bb4+ but you think it's bad for black?  I'm curious to see that, as white in the Catalan I'm happier facing 4...dxc4 or 6...dxc4, but I'm not terribly keen on the closed lines even without ...Bb4-e7 thrown in.

I am actually surprised that 1 Nf3 d5 2 d4 Nf6 3 c4 e6 4 g3 will be the choice in your book, as I'd somehow gained the impression you thought 4 Nc3 was better.  I wonder when we'll next see a repertoire book give the 5 Bg5 QGD for white?
  
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Re: QI against 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. g3 move order?
Reply #13 - 04/18/12 at 15:16:02
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BPaulsen wrote on 04/18/12 at 02:20:35:
I have defended the 4...Bb4+ Catalan as black for years and I have never liked that particular Catalan transposition as black, even more so since taking a very close look at it as part of writing my book.

Every time I think I've solved black's problems in the ...Ba6 approaches a new one springs up.


One reason I love the Catalan so much  Smiley.  As a Catalan player of about 14 years now (holy crap!), I'm most uncomfortable with 3...c5, because I don't really think the Fianchetto line against the Benoni is anything that special for White.  On the other hand, I score very well here; the positions suit my strengths I suppose, even though I'd rather play something else against a pure Benoni move order.
  
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