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Normal Topic C44: Universal Weapon vs. Goring and Ponziani (Read 2475 times)
George Jempty
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Re: C44: Universal Weapon vs. Goring and Ponziani
Reply #4 - 04/16/12 at 14:05:10
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Thanks for the suggested "alternative 8...d3!? for Black against 8.Nbd2".  In Dangerous Weapons they dismiss this as a disaster for Black but Taylor more recently is a little kinder to it.  This makes the variation quite the cousin to the Belgrade Gambit accepted.
  
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SWJediknight
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Re: Universal Weapon vs. Goring and Ponziani
Reply #3 - 04/16/12 at 12:58:59
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I believe that 5...Nd5 (recommended by Tim Harding here: http://www.chesscafe.com/text/kibitz172.pdf) is more of a test for White.  6.Bb5 (6.Qb3 Nb6 7.cxd4 d6 8.Bb5 merely looks level to me- the queen may be better off placed on c2) 6...a6 7.Ba4 Nb6 8.Bb3 and now 8...dxc3!? (challenging White to prove compensation for a pawn after 9.Nxc3 d6) and 8...d5 give Black good chances of equality (after 8...d5 I suggest 9.cxd4 Bg4 10.Be3!? Bxf3 11.gxf3 for White, with interesting play, though probably equality with best play).  I don't own "Play the Ponziani" so I don't know what they offer for White here (according to Harding they cover this line on page 123).

I don't agree with Harding's assessment of the importance of the line (there is a strong case for meeting the Ponziani with 3...d5, and for meeting the Goring Gambit with either 4...dxc3 or 4...d5) but I think it is one of Black's best options against both systems.    The "Don't be boring" btw probably refers to Capablanca's line against the Goring Gambit with 4...d5 and then ...Bb4, ...Bg4, ...Bxf3 and ...Qc4, universally recommended in most 1.e4 e5 repertoire books. 

As for the original topic, the ...Ne4 variation, also worth checking out is Gary Good's articles on this variation, where he covers 12.bxc3 (in the lines given by George Jempty above) in game #3 and also looks at the interesting alternative 8...d3!? for Black against 8.Nbd2 (in games #1 and #2).
http://www.correspondencechess.com/campbell/articles/a000530.htm
These are worth looking at for Black if Black wishes to avoid the queenless middlegame stemming from 8...Qxf6- the 8...d3 line in particular will certainly generate practical chances at club level, though I think objectively speaking White stands a bit better here too due to a better pawn structure.
  
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George Jempty
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Re: Universal Weapon vs. Goring and Ponziani
Reply #2 - 04/16/12 at 11:57:45
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George Jempty wrote on 04/16/12 at 11:49:24:
Two things since posting this:

14...Bc5 seems better than 14...g6 though after 15. Nxh7 0-0-0 or 15. Bxh7 0-0-0 the onus will be on Black to prove he has compensation

Simply 12...Qxe4  13. Bxe4 and I do see that Glenn Flear won a game as Black with 13...Be6 -- wonder why they glossed over that in their book since Flear was a co-author


Heh never mind, Taylor covers 12. bxc3! in his "Play the Ponziani".  I will leave the thread up though, the possible value being my game against 8. Nxd4, since the Dangerous Weapons book only provides a game from where Levy's opponent responded 11. Kd1 and Taylor additionally covers 11. Nc3 but neither of them cover 11. Bd2
  
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George Jempty
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Re: Universal Weapon vs. Goring and Ponziani
Reply #1 - 04/16/12 at 11:49:24
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Two things since posting this:

14...Bc5 seems better than 14...g6 though after 15. Nxh7 0-0-0 or 15. Bxh7 0-0-0 the onus will be on Black to prove he has compensation

Simply 12...Qxe4  13. Bxe4 and I do see that Glenn Flear won a game as Black with 13...Be6 -- wonder why they glossed over that in their book since Flear was a co-author
  
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George Jempty
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C44: Universal Weapon vs. Goring and Ponziani
04/16/12 at 11:32:50
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So 2008's "Dangerous Weapons: 1. e4 e5" proposes a universal line against the Goring and Ponziani which helps cut down the studying, but I think they've left something out that's more of a weapon for White Sad  To begin though:

1. e4 e5  2. Nf3 Nc6  3. d4 exd4  4. c3 Nf6 (or 3. c3 Nf6  4. d4 exd4) 5. e5 Ne4

I guess the next two or three moves comprise the "Don't be boring" part of the name of the chapter ("Don't be Boring against the Goring") because in the end it boils down to a queen swap:

6. Qe2 f5  7. exf6 d5  8. Nbd2 (against 8. Nxd4 I got a nice attack against my old Fritz 2.5 engine yesterday --- this sort of thing is what makes the line worthwhile for Black in my opinion, as opposed to a queenless middlegame -- I will post it at the bottom) 

8...Qxf6  9. Nxe4 dxe4  10. Qxe4 Qe6  11. Bd3 dxc3 and here the book only covers 12. 0-0 but the immediate 12. bxc3 and Black has to play very  after accurately for another ten moves or so, e.g. 12...Bd7  13. Ng5 Qxe4  14. Bxe4 g6 (14...h6  15. Bg6+ Ke7  16. Nh7!)  15. Bb2 Bg7  16. 0-0 Bf6  17. Rae1 Bxg5  18. Bxc6+ Kd8  19. c4 Re8  20. Rxe8+ Kxe8  21. Re1+ Kd8 and now it must be evaluated if White gets/keeps an edge with 22. Bd5, 22. Be4 and/or 22. Bf3.  Black's plan to *finally* develop might consist of ...c6, ...Be6 (particularly against 22. Be4) and ...Ke7

Will be interested to know if anybody thinks I'm missing something, if they have a different evaluation, or knows some more current theory in the meantime, for instance, maybe Black doesn't have to play 14...g6, but it seems the best way to neutralize the combination of White's Be4 and Ng5.  It's the Ng5 that makes this problematic for Black, and though it might be survivable it seems far from a "Dangerous Weapon".  The below on the other hand is the *sort* of play (it's imperfect) that might qualify the line as such, because I believe it is more likely that that most White players at the club level and in Open tourneys will play 8. Nxd4:

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 exd4 4. c3 Nf6 5. e5 Ne4 6. Qe2 f5 7. exf6 d5 8. Nxd4
Nxd4 9. cxd4 Kf7 10. fxg7 Bb4+ 11. Bd2 Re8 12. Qh5+ Kg8 13. Be2 Nf6 14. Qh6 Qe7
15. Qe3 Qxg7 16. Qg3 Bg4 17. f3 Bd6 18. Qf2 Re7 19. Nc3 Rae8 20. O-O-O Bb4 21.
Rde1 Bd7 22. g3 Qf8 23. f4 Bxc3 24. Bxc3 Ne4 25. Qf3 Re6 26. Bd2 b5 27. Be3 Ra6
28. Kb1 Qb4 29. Bc1 Bf5 30. Ka1 Ree6 (30... Nf6) 31. a3 Rec6 32. Qe3 Bc8 (32...
Rc3 33. Bd3 Rb3 34. g4 Bg6 35. f5 Nc3 36. Qe6+ Rxe6 37. Rxe6 Qxd4 38. Bc2 Rxa3+
39. bxa3 Qc4 40. Kb2 Bf7) 33. Bd3 Rxa3+ 34. bxa3 Ra6 35. Bxe4 1-0
« Last Edit: 04/16/12 at 14:03:26 by Smyslov_Fan »  
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