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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Opening specific cheating (Read 39953 times)
Jay
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Re: Opening specific cheating
Reply #136 - 05/12/12 at 02:58:12
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Markovich wrote on 05/11/12 at 20:06:56:
New rule: Do not quote a post if your reply is not going to be at least as long as the text you quote.


Edited for your pleasure.  Good day.
  
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Re: Opening specific cheating
Reply #135 - 05/11/12 at 23:42:20
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Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 05/11/12 at 20:43:29:
...

My ICC 5-minute rating is 2383, 1-minute rating 2345, blitz 2738 (inactive for years), 3-minute rating 2147, and my FIDE 2254...I am sure premove has helped me to get those ratings, and there is no premove in over-the-board. I am a terrible blitz player, especially over-the-board.



While I do agree that OTB blitz is different from online blitz in large measure because of premove, your 5-minute and 1-minute ratings are impressive.

Or do you suggest that your 3-minute rating is more legitimate because it's lower?

No, all those ratings point to a certain skill level, especially at blitz chess. For those who don't know, those ratings put you in the top 100 or so in 5-minute, 1-minute and 3-minute ratings.

Of course, ratings aren't inflated or deflated just because they are online or OTB. A great deal depends on who your competition is, not just how or where the calculations are made.

Again, congratulations on your excellent ratings. They are things to be proud of. And yes, I do believe FIDE ratings are more important than other ratings. That doesn't make the other ratings false or illegitimate though.
  
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Re: Opening specific cheating
Reply #134 - 05/11/12 at 20:43:29
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Jay wrote on 05/11/12 at 17:34:56:
Okay, I know I shouldn't, but I can't resist.  What was your 5 minute blitz rating, and what was your FIDE?


My ICC 5-minute rating is 2383, 1-minute rating 2345, blitz 2738 (inactive for years), 3-minute rating 2147, and my FIDE 2254. I highly doubt I play over-the-board 5-minute and 1-minute at those levels. I would probably rate my 1-minute over-the-board performance as 1700, and over-the-board 5-minute play as no more than 2000. And definitely my over-the-board "blitz" performance is not 2700. I have a bughouse best of 2600, but it is impossible that my performance in over-the-board bughouse has ever been that high. I am sure premove has helped me to get those ratings, and there is no premove in over-the-board. I am a terrible blitz player, especially over-the-board.
« Last Edit: 05/11/12 at 22:04:09 by Gilchrist is a legend »  

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Markovich
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Re: Opening specific cheating
Reply #133 - 05/11/12 at 20:06:56
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New rule: Do not quote a post if your reply is not going to be at least as long as the text you quote. I am pretty tired of people quoting five-paragraph posts just to add a sentence or two in reply. Offending posts will be subject to deletion.

Quote six chapters of Moby Dick if you want, just don't quote someone else quoting it.
  

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Re: Opening specific cheating
Reply #132 - 05/11/12 at 19:00:36
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Jay wrote on 05/11/12 at 17:34:56:
Since I've never played in a USCF tournament I can only follow the prevailing opinion that an online rating is inflated be several hundred points.


Actually on some sites they are significantly lower than real life ratings, eg. fics. 
  
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Jay
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Re: Opening specific cheating
Reply #131 - 05/11/12 at 17:34:56
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Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 05/09/12 at 19:51:53:
And I do not see how rating points on an online chess server are comparable to FIDE. [...]
[An overly long analogy to suggest that online ratings are fake.]

Online blitz ratings are incomparable to over the board games since they consider using a mouse and premove online.

I am not sure why one would consider their online blitz rating as important as their FIDE rating


Okay, I know I shouldn't, but I can't resist.  What was your 5 minute blitz rating, and what was your FIDE?

I don't think it is whether online ratings are real or fake.  As long as there is some system in place the ratings are "real," but the question is "Which rating system (and the corresponding playing conditions) has more merit?"  As I understand it there is a correlation but that FIDE ratings are harder to achieve and therefore more valuable.

Since I've never played in a USCF tournament I can only follow the prevailing opinion that an online rating is inflated be several hundred points.
« Last Edit: 05/12/12 at 02:56:53 by Jay »  
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Re: Opening specific cheating
Reply #130 - 05/09/12 at 20:15:33
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Every time I see that there's a new post in this thread I start feeling warm and fuzzy Smiley.  Best thread of the year so far, IMO.
  
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Re: Opening specific cheating
Reply #129 - 05/09/12 at 19:51:53
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No, it is not to impress, but it was what I was doing at the time. I could have said I was taking care of the dog instead of reading textbooks during blitz games, except that would be a lie since I do not have a dog. But if somehow it sounds strange to state what book I was reading, I could say I was reading a book on how to do long division. But I was assured that everyone knew that the textbook reading during blitz was an experiment to emphasise how difficult it would be for someone who had a dense opening manual or repertoire book to follow and read the book to use the moves to play the opening whilst playing the blitz games, and likewise it would be difficult to understand fully a textbook chapter during games.

And I do not see how rating points on an online chess server are comparable to FIDE. That makes no sense to me. When I used to play massive amounts of blitz, I felt that my blitz rating was as important as my FIDE rating, but since I was unable to break 3000 and only went to 2994 and then dropped to the 2700s, it did not matter. Or should I also, if I write the ratings of both my opponent and I on a tournament scoresheet, should I write in parentheses my online blitz rating along with my FIDE since they are not too different in terms of importance?

On ICC there is some sort of betting machine that uses fake chips called Bettingbot, which is not related to any currency and are just play money basically, similar to board game fake money. There are people in that channel (I believe channel 280), where they consider those fake chips so important to their livelihood that if they win from betting with their fake chips they are extremely jubilant to have won, yet they either do not realise or have forgotten that the chips are not real chips nor real money and they are not at a real casino placing real bets. Or do you also likewise believe, that if online blitz ratings carry an enormous amount of importance, that Bettingbot players should also feel that they have won €1.000 if they won 1.000 fake chips?

Online blitz ratings are incomparable to over the board games since they consider using a mouse and premove online. Those options are impossible in a tournament blitz game, as well as the extra pressure if one is being watched by more than 20 spectators or fellow tournament players. I have a 2700s blitz rating but it means nothing since I lose on time to 2200s in tournament blitz. My 1-minute rating means nothing since I lose on time frequently in over-the-board 1-minute compared to online. And what about bughouse? Are variants also as important as FIDE ratings? Because my bughouse best is higher than my 3-minute best. I am not sure how to interpret that result...

I am not sure why one would consider their online blitz rating as important as their FIDE rating, but if that were such a case, surely at some point I will have played against an opponent who, if asked what their rating was, would responsd, "Do you mean my FIDE rating or my online blitz rating? Because my online blitz rating is..." Or do you also expect someone to have said, "Do you mean my FIDE rating or my online blitz rating? Or do you mean my online bughouse rating..."
  

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Re: Opening specific cheating
Reply #128 - 05/09/12 at 18:02:00
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Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 05/08/12 at 20:20:07:
Online blitz are based on fake rating points, not FIDE rating points or ECF grade points, so there is no reason to consider online blitz as important as a 30/90 + 30/30s inc. FIDE-rated tournament game. I do not care about my online chess ratings.


What do you mean "fake rating points"? How are they "fake"? Surely all rating points are just a statistical prediction of how your play compares to others? Why should they be inferior to real life ratings, why should they matter less? Personally yes, I would prefer real life ratings, but there's no reason to say online ratings are not important. If anything online ratings are more accurate because of the frequency of games played, the lack of floors, etc. Just so long as someone doesn't abuse and mess up the system by doing odd stuff. Otherwise I think it's just elitist and exclusionary, like you have to be performing this special ritual, to only consider real life ratings to be worth anything at all and to laugh at online ones as meaning nothing. A little like how some people think you can't debate or discuss anything online. 

Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 05/08/12 at 20:20:07:
I used to care about my online blitz ratings and was paranoid that an opponent using a book, but that was when I had nothing else to do...


Yeah, yeah, yeah. I see people perform this fallacy all the time. They "used to" do something to an extreme level and then come to believe most other people are doing the same thing while they go to the other extreme themselves. They then feel that they have graduated from this previous "inferior" state and to persuade others that they are in this state. It's going from one extreme to the other. 

And what do we want to hear about your "science and engineering" books for and thermodynamics? What is that supposed to impress us or something? There's just something amiss here about your whole story of "reading engineering books and playing 3 0 blitz at the same time and I can't even read a few sentences at a time without making a mistake", something just wrong about it that doesn't make sense.  
  
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Re: Opening specific cheating
Reply #127 - 05/08/12 at 21:15:24
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I do not read textbooks and play online blitz all the time, and how can it be internet addiction if I were reading the book only previously, and then turned on the computer to play a few blitz games simultaneously? If there were a thing, that would probably sound like "textbook addiction", but I would have to read the material anyway, it is not usually for leisure and not an addiction.
  

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Re: Opening specific cheating
Reply #126 - 05/08/12 at 20:56:56
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Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 05/08/12 at 20:20:07:
I read engineering and other science/mathematics textbooks whilst playing in the 3-minute or 5-minute pools because I prefer to multitask and to take a break, but referring to if my opponent uses some chess book to read during a game, I would not care in absolute. Online blitz are based on fake rating points, not FIDE rating points or ECF grade points, so there is no reason to consider online blitz as important as a 30/90 + 30/30s inc. FIDE-rated tournament game. I do not care about my online chess ratings. I used to care about my online blitz ratings and was paranoid that an opponent using a book, but that was when I had nothing else to do...


Have you had the thought that reading textbooks while playing blitz (or attempting to read a few sentences before blundering horribly) is not a rational activity, and might be a symptom of "internet addiction" (which has been under consideration as a possible new diagnosis for the forthcoming edition of the DSM)?
  
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Re: Opening specific cheating
Reply #125 - 05/08/12 at 20:35:22
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barnaby wrote on 05/08/12 at 17:32:32:
Is there a link to ICC and their rules on this or some other substantiation that this is indeed the case?


I see a rule that states:   " ICC considers the use of assistance from computer programs or other people to be cheating, and will take appropriate action."

... but I do not see use of books addressed.

I did mention exactly where this is adressed... But OK, I'll be even more concrete: If you have an ICC account, type [help abuse] in your BlitzIn or Dasher window. Scroll down to the bottom, where it says:
Quote:
ICC does not officially have a policy against using opening books or notes during your ICC games. However, note that some players consider this to be unethical.


Edit: it's on the website too: http://www.chessclub.com/help/abuse 
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Re: Opening specific cheating
Reply #124 - 05/08/12 at 20:20:10
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Stigma is right, ICC has removed language about using books.

However, the 4545 League and the 9030 League, and the USCL all explicitly ban the use of books, and they play all their games on ICC.

So while the site itself may not ban books, the leagues that play on ICC do.

And if you play me in 3-0 chess 5-0 chess, or lightning chess, PLEASE: Use as many books as possible!
  
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Re: Opening specific cheating
Reply #123 - 05/08/12 at 20:20:07
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I read engineering and other science/mathematics textbooks whilst playing in the 3-minute or 5-minute pools because I prefer to multitask and to take a break, but referring to if my opponent uses some chess book to read during a game, I would not care in absolute. Online blitz are based on fake rating points, not FIDE rating points or ECF grade points, so there is no reason to consider online blitz as important as a 30/90 + 30/30s inc. FIDE-rated tournament game. I do not care about my online chess ratings. I used to care about my online blitz ratings and was paranoid that an opponent using a book, but that was when I had nothing else to do...
  

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Re: Opening specific cheating
Reply #122 - 05/08/12 at 20:08:02
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Barnaby, Stigma mentioned it back on page 4, but didn't provide a link.  I haven't been a member of ICC for years so I really don't care to search through their rules; would be interesting to know for sure though.
  
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