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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) I propose a new rule. (Read 18535 times)
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Re: I propose a new rule.
Reply #48 - 05/17/12 at 11:43:13
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I thought we were going to replace that handshake by the new CP-T-shirts with Tony's face on it? Tony, when are they going to be available?
  

What do people mean when they say "Chess is the pawn of the soul"?
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: I propose a new rule.
Reply #47 - 05/17/12 at 09:23:45
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And the forum novices should learn about the "secret handshake" which helps the anonymous members to recognize each other when we meet in tournaments.
  
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Re: I propose a new rule.
Reply #46 - 05/16/12 at 12:07:25
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No ads, no spam, no insults, no race, religion or Blackmar-Diemer Gambit...that should cover it  Smiley
  

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Re: I propose a new rule.
Reply #45 - 05/16/12 at 10:51:24
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 05/15/12 at 23:35:24:
Matemax wrote on 05/15/12 at 16:51:18:
KISS - Keep It Short and Simple

Agreed, any suggestions for something short and pithy?

Pithy - maybe someone is better in this.

The good -

Adding lines to your posts when discussing openings, giving your reasoning about a book.
Staying short with text.
Supporting the members of the community.
Giving positive feedback.
Showing where someone helped you to develop.

The bad -

Offending and showing disrespect as a start or an answer.
Repeating the content (posts without adding new information).
Giving negative feedback twice or more often.
Adds without permission.
Hinting to illegal sources and stealing brain work.

The ugly -

Answering to trolls.
Answering to posts arguing with trolls.
Making people buy popcorn.
Preaching.
Posting long with little content.
  

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Dink Heckler
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Re: I propose a new rule.
Reply #44 - 05/16/12 at 07:01:21
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For forumites 'Do unto others...'

For mods 'Moderate in moderation'

For Tony: 'Qui ipset...'

Wink
  

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Re: I propose a new rule.
Reply #43 - 05/15/12 at 23:35:24
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Matemax wrote on 05/15/12 at 16:51:18:
KISS - Keep It Short and Simple

Agreed, any suggestions for something short and pithy?
  
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Re: I propose a new rule.
Reply #42 - 05/15/12 at 16:51:18
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"The good, the bad and the ugly" - they are everywhere. Philosophy, rules, ethics, moderation and what ever doesn't change it.

Whatever is needed Kiss KISS - Keep It Short and Simple
  
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Re: I propose a new rule.
Reply #41 - 05/15/12 at 16:38:03
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Well, we already have rules against advertising and personal attacks.

I like the idea of a philosophy statement that reminds everyone that we are building a positive community of chess players interested in publishing and openings that this site stands for.
  
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Re: I propose a new rule.
Reply #40 - 05/15/12 at 10:54:59
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Maybe this should be a sticky in the most used section - General chess.

Admitting that it doesn't belong there I think there can be thought about an exception because of the use of this forum.
  

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Re: I propose a new rule.
Reply #39 - 05/15/12 at 10:19:19
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 05/14/12 at 23:25:58:
More interesting: you could give the novices an idea how you WISH the forum to be, into which direction it should develop.

I did think about this, and started editing the Registration Agreement, but soon realised that nobody bothered to read it, or if they did then they soon forgot! Roll Eyes
  
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Re: I propose a new rule.
Reply #38 - 05/15/12 at 10:09:35
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 05/13/12 at 18:52:32:
Edited:
Moderator's note:

The discussion about moderation has been moved to the General Chess section.
~SF May 13, 2012

Why General Chess? Isn't it a Forum issue, shouldn't it be here? Undecided
  
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Re: I propose a new rule.
Reply #37 - 05/15/12 at 00:44:58
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Quote:
The basics: no adhominem attacks, no ads, etc., which can just be copied from other sites and are respected anyway by 99% here.
More interesting: you could give the novices an idea how you WISH the forum to be, into which direction it should develop. Obviously the latter would be no rigid "laws", but rather your philosophy for the whole site. Something like: many club players have good ideas which they would like to share or discuss with others. PCs are getting faster. Nonames may have a better library than the titled contributors. ... But avoid to ruin a discussion by doing ... (too many diagrams, shouting, being off-topic, rude German jokes, whatever)


Yes agree with all above of Stefan.
How wish it to be - a forum for mutual help, a medium for co-constructing and advancing chess theory.
Theoretical underpinning: the ideal social constructivist enterprise.
Hm maybe even social constructionist (Papert) if you consider chess to be 'making'! I wouldn't go that far.

Moderating - as SF correctly notes, moderators have lives. We don't live for you. For me: family, job, forthcoming PhD, also run a nationwide lit group for teachers. Don't even have time to get to chess tourneys any more.
Avoid ill will, don't be unpleasant just because you are anonymous, try to be more (socially) constructive than destructive.
Right, I have things to do....
  
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Re: I propose a new rule.
Reply #36 - 05/14/12 at 23:38:56
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Why only rude German jokes? What about rude Spanish jokes? Smiley
  

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Re: I propose a new rule.
Reply #35 - 05/14/12 at 23:25:58
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 05/14/12 at 21:51:59:
I've always left it up to the individuals concerned, they can always ask me if they are not sure, but I'm happy to lay down some guidelines if you think that is better. What particular rules did you have in mind, Stefan?

The basics: no adhominem attacks, no ads, etc., which can just be copied from other sites and are respected anyway by 99% here.
More interesting: you could give the novices an idea how you WISH the forum to be, into which direction it should develop. Obviously the latter would be no rigid "laws", but rather your philosophy for the whole site. Something like: many club players have good ideas which they would like to share or discuss with others. PCs are getting faster. Nonames may have a better library than the titled contributors. ... But avoid to ruin a discussion by doing ... (too many diagrams, shouting, being off-topic, rude German jokes, whatever)
  
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Re: I propose a new rule.
Reply #34 - 05/14/12 at 22:45:56
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 05/14/12 at 22:26:30:
We don't need a bunch of rules that need to be explicitly stated and followed to the letter.

The moderators know when something is wrong.

There are far more useful things to do with our time than worry about site rules.


In an ideal world I'd love to agree with you, but the furore that has blown up here suggests to me that  some guidelines would be a good idea. Moderating decisions have been made that some people don't agree with and as a result of this, a moderator and prolific contributor to the forum has been upset, as have a number of people who feel wronged by some of his judgments. To me, this indicates that some rules would be useful, to avoid, as I wrote earlier, the impression in some people's minds that moderating decisions appear arbitrary, unilateral and personal.
  
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Re: I propose a new rule.
Reply #33 - 05/14/12 at 22:32:14
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Well, SmyslovFan, you make a good case, too. I'm just saying, if we are going to make these rules, they should be complete.
  

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Re: I propose a new rule.
Reply #32 - 05/14/12 at 22:26:30
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This is not a "major forum', nor should it pretend to be. "Major" fora (or forums) allow and encourage as many people as possible to participate. The Chess Pub is a fairly closed lot. We don't need a bunch of rules that need to be explicitly stated and followed to the letter.

The moderators know when something is wrong. The way we react may be slightly different from moderator to moderator, and case by case, but the opening forums are generally very well-run.

There are far more useful things to do with our time than worry about site rules. Let's get back to chess!
  
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Re: I propose a new rule.
Reply #31 - 05/14/12 at 21:51:59
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 05/14/12 at 12:39:48:
I've said it before, and repeat it, that Tony should lay down clear "Forum Rules" which moderators have as their guidance. Every major forum has them.   

I've always left it up to the individuals concerned, they can always ask me if they are not sure, but I'm happy to lay down some guidelines if you think that is better. What particular rules did you have in mind, Stefan?
  
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Re: I propose a new rule.
Reply #30 - 05/14/12 at 19:49:32
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Seeley wrote on 05/14/12 at 13:19:02:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 05/14/12 at 12:39:48:
Tony should lay down clear "Forum Rules" which moderators have as their guidance. Every major forum has them.   


I think this gets to the core of the difficulties that have arisen here recently. In the absence of such guidelines, any judgment made by a moderator can appear to be arbitrary and unilateral, and perhaps even personal. This seems to be what's caused some of the upset and resentment that has occurred. Of course, any 'Forum Rules' will inevitably leave leeway for interpretation, but at least they would help everyone – both moderators and posters – to know where they stand.



YES.
  

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Re: I propose a new rule.
Reply #29 - 05/14/12 at 13:19:02
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 05/14/12 at 12:39:48:
Tony should lay down clear "Forum Rules" which moderators have as their guidance. Every major forum has them.   


I think this gets to the core of the difficulties that have arisen here recently. In the absence of such guidelines, any judgment made by a moderator can appear to be arbitrary and unilateral, and perhaps even personal. This seems to be what's caused some of the upset and resentment that has occurred. Of course, any 'Forum Rules' will inevitably leave leeway for interpretation, but at least they would help everyone – both moderators and posters – to know where they stand.
  
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Re: I propose a new rule.
Reply #28 - 05/14/12 at 12:39:48
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Keano wrote on 05/14/12 at 11:51:35:
Regarding long nested quotes I never like seeing those. Is there an option in the forum software to let the Quote button just quote the actual text of the post, not anything the post has quoted from before. I've seen other forums working this way so I suspect there must be an option in the YaBB forum software to do it.

This would work for chit chat, non-chess. But quotes, also extended quotes, are useful in theoretical debates which can be quite detailed, and there is a danger to lose the overview. In such a case I gladly quote 4, 5 or even more lines, highlight the moves to which I am refering, and can directly reply with my own analysis.

But I admit that a lengthy quote, to which only a short remark is added, is ugly, and I may be guilty of such sins myself.

I've said it before, and repeat it, that Tony should lay down clear "Forum Rules" which moderators have as their guidance. Every major forum has them.
  
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Re: I propose a new rule.
Reply #27 - 05/14/12 at 12:36:52
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 05/13/12 at 22:25:04:
What exactly does being a "troll" entail?  Does that mean that chat privileges are revoked for a week?

I think that they can't post while they are a 'Troll', but I could be wrong - we'll have to try it and see! Wink

kylemeister wrote on 05/13/12 at 21:48:28:
I have the impression that on the USCF forum the endless arguing about moderating has involved the term "personal attack" rather than "insult" ...

Yes, that's what I meant, I would like to stop any direct 'personal attacks' on the forum.

ghenghisclown wrote on 05/13/12 at 21:12:17:
You would have to define what an insult is and is not, and define it well.

Not really, I think we all know what a personal insult is, and I wouldn't use it for anything in a grey zone.
  
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Re: I propose a new rule.
Reply #26 - 05/14/12 at 11:51:35
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Regarding long nested quotes I never like seeing those. Is there an option in the forum software to let the Quote button just quote the actual text of the post, not anything the post has quoted from before. I've seen other forums working this way so I suspect there must be an option in the YaBB forum software to do it.
  
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Re: I propose a new rule.
Reply #25 - 05/14/12 at 06:29:22
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I think Gilchrist makes a reasonable point though. What is trolling? Tricky.
Would reserve bans mostly just for rudeness, nastiness, idiocy. We all know who the handful are, hopefully they might do too and stop being so actively disruptive and mean-spirited.

I borrow from Murakami Haruki, on ill will:

“The world's full of groundless ill will. I'll never understand it, you'll never understand it, but it exists all the same.”
― Haruki Murakami, Pinball, 1973

Pity. Let's have less of it here.

Trolling - aside from very obvious trolling like Anon3 (needs a ban), some people do seem to get obsessed hereabouts. Suggest they be advised to take a 'mental health' week off. For their own benefit. Can't force 'em away from a PC (there is always ICC and porn), but it may help.
  
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Re: I propose a new rule.
Reply #24 - 05/14/12 at 05:53:18
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Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 05/14/12 at 01:27:25:
...
And can moderators be given the troll status? What occurs if non-moderator users feel that a moderator should be given troll status?


Complaints about moderators can be sent to the moderators themselves. If that doesn't work, you can send Tony Kosten a message.

The next logical question will be: "what occurs if users feel that Tony Kosten should be given troll status?"

I don't have a good answer to that one. Then again, neither did Plato.
  
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Re: I propose a new rule.
Reply #23 - 05/14/12 at 01:27:25
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I would be against the rule, because the definition of such would be too ambiguous. And what happens if a moderator decides to consider a user a troll only according to his/her personal definition? There would be no evidence to disprove the aforementioned, nor if due fairness has transpired.

And can moderators be given the troll status? What occurs if non-moderator users feel that a moderator should be given troll status?
« Last Edit: 05/14/12 at 02:44:31 by Gilchrist is a legend »  

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Re: I propose a new rule.
Reply #22 - 05/14/12 at 00:36:10
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 05/13/12 at 20:40:04:
I'd like to propose a new rule!
It has been suggested to me privately that I ban unruly members, but I'm not too keen on this idea, I can however give them 'Troll' status for a short period of time. Shocked
So my suggested new rule is that any member who directly insults another will be 'Trolled' for a week. of course, if the victim then insults him back he will also be 'trolled' .. a bit like both getting red cards in a game of football.
Anyone against this? Undecided


I agree, except that I would suggest issuing a warning first, to give the member in question a chance to change their behaviour, and if they persist then they receive a temporary 'Troll' status.
  

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Re: I propose a new rule.
Reply #21 - 05/13/12 at 22:32:23
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 05/13/12 at 22:25:04:
What exactly does being a "troll" entail?  Does that mean that chat privileges are revoked for a week?

ECForum does this.
Idiocy, nastiness etc. Personal insults.
Week ban. Seems sensible.
Most here can self-moderate. Handful can't. They need sorting.
Reminds me of school teaching - just one or two disruptive kids can spoil it for many if not dealt with and dealt with firmly, early.
  
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Re: I propose a new rule.
Reply #20 - 05/13/12 at 22:25:04
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What exactly does being a "troll" entail?  Does that mean that chat privileges are revoked for a week?
  
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Re: I propose a new rule.
Reply #19 - 05/13/12 at 21:48:28
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I have the impression that on the USCF forum the endless arguing about moderating has involved the term "personal attack" rather than "insult" ...
  
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Re: I propose a new rule.
Reply #18 - 05/13/12 at 21:12:17
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 05/13/12 at 20:40:04:
I'd like to propose a new rule!
It has been suggested to me privately that I ban unruly members, but I'm not too keen on this idea, I can however give them 'Troll' status for a short period of time. Shocked
So my suggested new rule is that any member who directly insults another will be 'Trolled' for a week. of course, if the victim then insults him back he will also be 'trolled' .. a bit like both getting red cards in a game of football.
Anyone against this? Undecided


You would have to define what an insult is and is not, and define it well.
  

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Re: I propose a new rule.
Reply #17 - 05/13/12 at 20:50:33
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I thought red cards mean one cannot play the next fixture. If you give them such a status, then they can still post, so it would be a yellow card? But what to do when a moderator insults a poster unprovoked?
  

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Re: I propose a new rule.
Reply #16 - 05/13/12 at 20:40:04
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I'd like to propose a new rule!
It has been suggested to me privately that I ban unruly members, but I'm not too keen on this idea, I can however give them 'Troll' status for a short period of time. Shocked
So my suggested new rule is that any member who directly insults another will be 'Trolled' for a week. of course, if the victim then insults him back he will also be 'trolled' .. a bit like both getting red cards in a game of football.
Anyone against this? Undecided
  
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Re: I propose a new rule.
Reply #15 - 05/13/12 at 18:52:32
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Edited:
Moderator's note:

The topic of this thread was Markovich's proposal for a new rule.

The discussion about moderation has been moved to the General Chess section.

~SF May 13, 2012
  
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Re: I propose a new rule.
Reply #14 - 05/13/12 at 18:48:25
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Off-Topic replies have been moved to this Topic.
  
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Re: I propose a new rule.
Reply #13 - 05/12/12 at 13:13:20
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A good story writer needs the "axe" as a tool - which means you only tell what is really necessary for the content.
  
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Re: I propose a new rule.
Reply #12 - 05/12/12 at 12:45:02
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Agree with Markovich.
Unpleasant, unsightly long quotes. No thank you. Much of it idle drivel anyhow.

Presume TN  joking, but with chess players 'tis never clear. There is joy in brevity. Read some haiku. Read Orwell. Max 40 words? Maybe.

  
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Re: I propose a new rule.
Reply #11 - 05/12/12 at 09:35:04
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I propose a new rule: All posts must contain at least 40 words (excluding those in quote tags).

Stops the 'one sentence in reply to five paragraphs' case given by Markovich, and also reduces author laziness. But the number of posts per day could decrease sharply.
  

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Re: I propose a new rule.
Reply #10 - 05/12/12 at 03:10:36
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So sorry. Hyperbole.

But read some threads, and you will see that a nontrivial minority of posts consist of a long quotation and not much else.

Small issue, fine. But it is an issue. "Rule" is a poor term, really. Call it an expectation.
  

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Re: I propose a new rule.
Reply #9 - 05/12/12 at 02:37:58
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Markovich wrote on 05/11/12 at 20:06:56:
New rule: Do not quote a post if your reply is not going to be at least as long as the text you quote. I am pretty tired of people quoting five-paragraph posts just to add a sentence or two in reply. Offending posts will be subject to deletion.


But here, Markovich is saying that he was just quoting a new rule of thumb, not an inflexible policy.

The first quote, coming from a thread in the general chat section, certainly does not read like a rule of thumb.  It suggests the rule is already in place.
  
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Re: I propose a new rule.
Reply #8 - 05/12/12 at 02:34:28
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Why do we need a rule such as this? 

This is really a small issue. Yes, people should learn to quote economically from others. But where does this stop?  Will we start to censor overly wordy texts?  Or texts that use different colors?

Rather than make a rule prohibiting over-long quotations, the moderators could send a message to people who routinely make these lazy posts asking them to clean up their posts.

There are only a few people who post here regularly as it is. We don't need to clutter the site with rules such as this.
  
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Markovich
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Re: I propose a new rule.
Reply #7 - 05/11/12 at 23:16:00
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Well at least we need to estanlish a principle. There is a fair amount of excessive quotation going on.
  

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GMTonyKosten
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Re: I propose a new rule.
Reply #6 - 05/11/12 at 22:19:07
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I agree that both overly long quotes and nested ones are annoying. I prefer editing the quote to remove the unessential first to make it snappier and more relevant, I also ignore posts with long quotes! Smiley
If they are deleted I wouldn't mind myself, although I'm sure it would annoy the authors!
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What about some gentle warnings to offenders first?
  
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TalJechin
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Re: I propose a new rule.
Reply #5 - 05/11/12 at 21:43:50
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[quote] I plan summarily to delete any future offending posts[/quote]

Doesn't sound all that flexible... Judging from how often people post in the wrong section (btw, there's a Benko post in d-pawn specials that belongs in daring defences), we could assume that many will continue to quote entire conversations just to add a sentence or two. I think all of us have done that at least once over the years.

So, summarily deletion is overkill imo - and could easily turn into censorship and long debates on why something was deleted while something else wasn't.

But the suggested new rule in itself sounds like a good idea. Though it's easier to achieve thru group pressure and good role models than with Judge Dredd as moderator. :)
  
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Markovich
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Re: I propose a new rule.
Reply #4 - 05/11/12 at 21:18:39
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Really I was just proposing a rule of thumb, not an inflexible policy.
  

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Gilchrist is a legend
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Re: I propose a new rule.
Reply #3 - 05/11/12 at 20:59:43
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What happens if the author wants to quote a long paragraph or few paragraphs since the topic is relevant, but only has a few or less than a few sentences to reply? Sometimes if the paragraph quote is shortened, the relevance will not make sense in accordance with a reply, albeit even a short one.
  

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dfan
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Re: I propose a new rule.
Reply #2 - 05/11/12 at 20:55:31
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OK, I will voice a contrary opinion, if the alternative is that lots of posts start getting "summarily deleted".

There are plenty of good replies that are, say, just slightly under the length of the text being quoted. If you start making rules like "OK, the reply has to be at least 50% of the length of the text being quoted," then it just gets silly. I've seen people on other forums make perfectly good comments that they then had to manually pad out in order to get past some automatic threshold of exactly the kind you describe, leading to threads that are actually harder to read than they would be otherwise.

Yes, people shouldn't lazily quote whole posts to add one line of comment. No, moderators shouldn't start instituting some zero-tolerance rule that leads to people living in fear of their replies not being quite long enough.

The moderation on ChessPub has been pretty light-handed to date and I like it that way.
  
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Zwischenzugzwang
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Re: I propose a new rule.
Reply #1 - 05/11/12 at 20:50:15
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I find it much easier to "overlook" long quotes while reading than scrolling backwards and forward to identify what exactly the poster is refering to. Of course, quoting the very previous long post completely for just adding a smiley could be called a "waste of space". But computer "space" is not so expensive any more ...

What I find much more annoying are deeply nested quotes. In those cases I'd appreciate some efforts from the poster to reduce the complexity by giving a short summary. But, almost by definition, deeply nested quotes are always the result of some (unproductive) cooperation.  Undecided

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Markovich
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I propose a new rule.
05/11/12 at 20:19:41
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Do not quote a post if your reply is not going to be at least as long as the text you quote. Posting a sentence or two in response to five quoted paragrapghs is lazy and a dreadful abuse of space here. People with half a brain can scroll down and read the post you're replying to, you know?

Just use the name of the person to whom you reply.

Nota bene, because unless there is a great upwelling of contrary opinion, I plan summarily to delete any future offending posts.
  

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