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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) C54: Kaufman's Italian Game Analysis (Read 22742 times)
chandrashekharkoravi
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Re: C54: Kaufman's Italian Game Analysis
Reply #22 - 08/13/13 at 06:21:45
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7... Nxe4 is analyzed by Gary Lane in his October 2011 (154) update for the ChessCafe "Opening Lanes" column where he is quite positive of blacks chances.

You can download it as a pdf from the below link




Please give us the correct link..Its not italian game analysis
  
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Markovich
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Re: C54: Kaufman's Italian Game Analysis
Reply #21 - 05/25/13 at 14:01:21
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Nice shot, 11...Nxg2!  This was also played in Benassi - Sherwood, LSS 2012, and produced a draw after 12.Nc3 Nh4 13.Ne4 Bc7 14.d4 etc.
  

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dfan
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Re: C54: Kaufman's Italian Game Analysis
Reply #20 - 05/25/13 at 00:25:02
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While we're discussing 8.Bd3, here's a game I played last month (White is 2100 USCF): 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5 6.Bb5+ c6 7.dxc6 bxc6 8.Bd3 Nd5 9.Nf3 Bd6 10.O-O Nf4 11.Be2?! Nxg2!N 12.Kxg2?! e4 13.Nd4? Qg5+ 14.Kh1 Qf4 0-1.

11...Nxg2 isn't winning on the spot or anything, but White has to either not take the knight or give the piece back on the next move, which can be difficult to see over the board. White's moves are obviously bad in retrospect but very easy to make (avoid isolated doubled pawns, refute the sacrifice by accepting it, save the knight).

This was the first time I ever "already had the final position on my board at home", as the annotators like to say, as this player had played 11.Be2 against me a couple of years previously and I had prepared this response in the meantime. A very nice feeling! I already got all the return on my investment I could have hoped for so I'm happy to make it public.
  
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Markovich
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Re: C54: Kaufman's Italian Game Analysis
Reply #19 - 05/24/13 at 21:59:16
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A critical line is 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5 6.Bb5+ c6 7.dxc6 bxc6 8.Bd3 Nd5 9.Nf3 Bd6 10.O-O Nf4 11.Re1 Nxd3 12.cxd3 O-O 13.Nxe5 Re8 14.d4 c5 15.d3 cxd4 16.Nf3 Rxe1+.  In my data base, this was played 5 times between reasonably strong opposition, and resulted in five draws. 

So, if no White partisans show up pretty soon, I'm going to have to stop posting on this subject.
  

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ghenghisclown
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Re: C54: Kaufman's Italian Game Analysis
Reply #18 - 05/24/13 at 00:44:16
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Thank you for the link, Markovich.

Just checked it, seems very good. Although I still don't think it's quite my style...appears I was wrong about any thoughts regarding the objective merits of Black's position.

I'm going to check the regular lines in the TKD next, I look forward to it ..maybe I will try it out in tournament.
  

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Re: C54: Kaufman's Italian Game Analysis
Reply #17 - 05/23/13 at 20:52:03
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Fwiw, a public repertoire for Black, which can be viewed by anyone, includes 8.Bd3 and is available here:

https://1e5.chesstheory.org/p.php?z=pt&a=81171&b=0&c=81171&d=0

Use settings to highlight the repertoire in question.

So anyone believing in White's cause may suggest improvements.
  

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MarkG
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Re: C54: Kaufman's Italian Game Analysis
Reply #16 - 05/23/13 at 03:21:39
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Markovich wrote on 05/23/13 at 01:31:18:
The burden of proof must rest with him who would overturn a longstanging theoretical judgement. So if anyone's computer has produced the conclusion that White is better after 3...Nf6, let him produce the lines.


Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and the claim that the Two Knights is unsound is truly an extraordinary one. It would be one of the most significant theoretical discoveries ever. I would need a lot more evidence than "my computer says +/= after 8.Bd3".
  
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Markovich
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Re: C54: Kaufman's Italian Game Analysis
Reply #15 - 05/23/13 at 01:31:18
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The burden of proof must rest with him who would overturn a longstanging theoretical judgement. So if anyone's computer has produced the conclusion that White is better after 3...Nf6, let him produce the lines. Bring on your lines, Annonymous3.


But didn't we already destroy slaughter's arguments on this same point?

I have no problem at all with Kaufmann recommending 3...Bc5, only with his funny remark about 3...Nf6.
  

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Re: C54: Kaufman's Italian Game Analysis
Reply #14 - 05/22/13 at 16:30:41
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Anonymous3 wrote on 05/22/13 at 05:28:43:
please show where the compensation is after 8.Bd3


It seems to me that 8...Ng4!? is an interesting move with the stem game being Stellwagen-L´Ami, Maastricht 2008. I don´t think even the best computer programs are able to eveluate the positions arising from such gambits accurately without some human interference. Interestingly the above mentioned game was played with the help of a computer by both sides Wink

  
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Re: C54: Kaufman's Italian Game Analysis
Reply #13 - 05/22/13 at 13:43:11
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The forum is a haven for people with differing skill levels to come together, ask questions, share their opinions, and learn.

I will let the previous comments stand, but any escalation of personal attacks will be removed, even if the rest of the comment contains a brilliant refutation of a famous line.
  
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Re: C54: Kaufman's Italian Game Analysis
Reply #12 - 05/22/13 at 05:28:43
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Markovich wrote on 05/22/13 at 00:37:33:
Wow, I am rather surprised that Kaufmann would assert that Black lacks comp after 3...Nf6 4.Ng5. Neither theory nor practice bears that out.

Current theory and practice seem to show White is better after the fashionable and modern 8.Bd3!

Markovich wrote on 05/22/13 at 00:37:33:
I am not at all surprised, however, that some anonymous person would come here and claim that White is better after 9.Bd3, of all things. This forum unfortunately is a haven for people with powerful computers and too little chess judgment to criticize the results of the machine.

Actually, this forum is a haven for unfairly criticizing people of relying too much on computer analysis and not using their judgement. If you think Black has compensation after 4.Ng5, then please show where the compensation is after 8.Bd3 (and not 9.Bd3 as you said)
  
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Re: C54: Kaufman's Italian Game Analysis
Reply #11 - 05/22/13 at 03:35:23
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Markovich wrote on 05/22/13 at 00:37:33:
Wow, I am rather surprised that Kaufmann would assert that Black lacks comp after 3...Nf6 4.Ng5. Neither theory nor practice bears that out. It really does a gross disservice to the improving players of this world to dissuade them from playing the highly enterprising, and fully adequate, Two Knights Defense.

I am not at all surprised, however, that some anonymous person would come here and claim that White is better after 9.Bd3, of all things. This forum unfortunately is a haven for people with powerful computers and too little chess judgment to criticize the results of the machine.




I'm not sure the book in question is for an "improving" or junior player. I have my problems with the book, but making a judgement call and choosing Bc5 is not one of them. It seems to be that the Two Knights just isn't solid. 8.Bd3 is a very good move and I haven't seen anyone convince me otherwise...Mikhalchishin's analysis left things out for example.

  

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Re: C54: Kaufman's Italian Game Analysis
Reply #10 - 05/22/13 at 00:37:33
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Wow, I am rather surprised that Kaufmann would assert that Black lacks comp after 3...Nf6 4.Ng5. Neither theory nor practice bears that out. It really does a gross disservice to the improving players of this world to dissuade them from playing the highly enterprising, and fully adequate, Two Knights Defense.

I am not at all surprised, however, that some anonymous person would come here and claim that White is better after 9.Bd3, of all things. This forum unfortunately is a haven for people with powerful computers and too little chess judgment to criticize the results of the machine.

  

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Re: C54: Kaufman's Italian Game Analysis
Reply #9 - 05/20/13 at 23:16:34
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SWJediknight wrote on 05/22/12 at 09:18:20:
Black has at least two full equalisers against the 7.Bd2 line but in my opinion it is hard to generate winning chances against an opponent who is happy to draw which is partly why I generally prefer 3...Nf6.

brabo wrote on 05/23/12 at 04:49:55:
I recommend 7...Nxe4 as best most accurate way for black to equalise and at the same time keep some chances to avoid an immediate draw. If you want a full scale battle then you better don't play 3...Bc5 but 3...Nf6 in this opening.

Kaufman says that 3...Nf6 is "a risky gambit due to 4.Ng5. In general, computer analysis does not show full compensation for the pawn in that line."

I think Black gets at least full compensation for the pawn in all lines except the currently fashionable 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5 6.Bb5+ c6 7.dxc6 bxc6 8.Bd3!
  
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Re: C54: Kaufman's Italian Game Analysis
Reply #8 - 05/27/12 at 20:15:58
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Another possibility that could be mentioned is ...Nxe4 a move later.  Edmar Mednis (who faced it against Fischer in the 1960s) once said to me that he thought it was not worse than 8...d5.
  
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