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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Guidelines for the use of ChessPub.com analysis (Read 16597 times)
proustiskeen
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Re: Guidelines for the use of ChessPub.com analysis
Reply #13 - 05/24/12 at 00:29:20
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I like it when GMs say I'm right.  Wink

GMTonyKosten wrote on 05/24/12 at 00:08:49:
proustiskeen wrote on 05/23/12 at 19:10:46:
This isn't a chesspub issue anymore.  It's between brabo and the author.

Yes, you're probably right. On reflection there haven't been many copyright problems in the nearly ten years since the Forum was started (one?!). Maybe we're just overreacting.

  
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GMTonyKosten
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Re: Guidelines for the use of ChessPub.com analysis
Reply #12 - 05/24/12 at 00:08:49
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proustiskeen wrote on 05/23/12 at 19:10:46:
This isn't a chesspub issue anymore.  It's between brabo and the author.

Yes, you're probably right. On reflection there haven't been many copyright problems in the nearly ten years since the Forum was started (one?!). Maybe we're just overreacting.
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Guidelines for the use of ChessPub.com analysis
Reply #11 - 05/23/12 at 23:14:06
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From Wikipedia ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_quote ):

Quote:
Right to quote [...] allows for quoting excerpts of copyrighted works, as long as the cited paragraphs are within a reasonable limit (varying from country to country), clearly marked as quotations and fully referenced, and if the resulting new work is not just a collection of quotations, but constitutes a fully original work in itself.

In chess, nobody puts cited variations into quotation marks. But basically that's the only diffference. "Fully referenced" means that it isn't sufficient to give only the author's name, the source (the book, magazine,...) should be identified.

The question whether chess is copyrightable is old, and I guess there has been a dozen articles or so about it, starting in the late 19th century. Mainly by lawyers interested in chess. The thing isn't really settled, I believe (I am not even sure whether any such case was brought to court). The general consensus is that a single game or single variation cannot be copyrighted, but a work consisting of games/variations is copyrightable.
  
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brabo
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Re: Guidelines for the use of ChessPub.com analysis
Reply #10 - 05/23/12 at 21:14:46
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proustiskeen wrote on 05/23/12 at 20:46:35:
Brabo, you're the _only one_ who has raised this issue here.  I get that you're upset.  But this really isn't a chesspub issue.  It doesn't matter where you post your analysis.  If you put it online, someone can make use of it.  We can argue about whether this young FM made use of it properly or not - and I'm pretty sure, having looked at the article, that he did cite your prior work and is thus without blame - but this is the risk that you take in putting your material out there.

If such risk is unacceptable to you, don't post here, or anywhere else.  This is the world we live in.  Nothing is private anymore.  Take it up with NIC and your lawyer.

In my opinion, the very last thing chesspub should do is further lock out future users and contributers via any of the mechanisms discussed above.

I am probably also the first one on chesspub of whom content was used so extensively  in a commercial article without permission or even informing.
I ask what Max did for the forum here. What is the extra value of having a mass of readers which are never posting neither buying content but only searching free info for own amusement or profit. Is it really too much asked to put a limited restriction on this type of readers and ask them to give up their anonymity (only to Tony Kosten) in return for full content to read here on the forum for free? If that can solve such cases, is that too much asked from chesspub by a member whom is regularly posting quality analysis for free?
  
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proustiskeen
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Re: Guidelines for the use of ChessPub.com analysis
Reply #9 - 05/23/12 at 20:46:35
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Brabo, you're the _only one_ who has raised this issue here.  I get that you're upset.  But this really isn't a chesspub issue.  It doesn't matter where you post your analysis.  If you put it online, someone can make use of it.  We can argue about whether this young FM made use of it properly or not - and I'm pretty sure, having looked at the article, that he did cite your prior work and is thus without blame - but this is the risk that you take in putting your material out there.

If such risk is unacceptable to you, don't post here, or anywhere else.  This is the world we live in.  Nothing is private anymore.  Take it up with NIC and your lawyer.

In my opinion, the very last thing chesspub should do is further lock out future users and contributers via any of the mechanisms discussed above.
  
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brabo
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Re: Guidelines for the use of ChessPub.com analysis
Reply #8 - 05/23/12 at 20:07:12
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proustiskeen wrote on 05/23/12 at 19:10:46:
I suggest brabo contact a lawyer if he wants to continue this.  This isn't a chesspub issue anymore.  It's between brabo and the author.

We all  know (NIC included) that financially it is not worth to start a courtcase for this.
I believe chesspub better tries to avoid such cases in the future as it will otherwise lead to less quality of analysis on this forum, less members, ... In that sense it is still an issue for chesspub.
  
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brabo
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Re: Guidelines for the use of ChessPub.com analysis
Reply #7 - 05/23/12 at 20:01:56
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proustiskeen wrote on 05/23/12 at 19:09:04:
This seems an overreaction.  One user is upset, in short, because a move he suggested was named after someone else in print.  From a bibliographic perspective, it seems that attribution was made in the text of the NIC article, even if that attribution sometimes seems sloppy.  That might be an editorial problem on their end - how many 'fact checkers' does NIC employ, anyway?  So why are we now all concerned with determining who reads what, who has access to what, etc.?

Look, unless I'm sorely mistaken, it's not like Anand or Gelfand are here on this site giving away their secret homebrew.  We're amateurs who love the game and who enjoy the analytical camraderie that can be found here.  Let's not poison the well just because of one incident of bad feelings.

I think that you forget the mainpart and that is that unknown readers can just take everything from the site without any permission or even informing and use it for own profit (money, status,...). It won't happen often as most analysis isn't that spectacular on this forum but don't people (like myself) whom are pushing the quality higher than the average deserve at least a serious discussion on this topic ? Is that really an overreaction or is it also in the interest of the forum that quality analysis can also have a place here without a constant threat of being copied without permission?
  
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proustiskeen
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Re: Guidelines for the use of ChessPub.com analysis
Reply #6 - 05/23/12 at 19:10:46
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Also, what is this 'commercial profit?'  How much does NIC pay for a contribution to an SOS volume, anyway?

I suggest brabo contact a lawyer if he wants to continue this.  This isn't a chesspub issue anymore.  It's between brabo and the author.
  
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proustiskeen
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Re: Guidelines for the use of ChessPub.com analysis
Reply #5 - 05/23/12 at 19:09:04
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This seems an overreaction.  One user is upset, in short, because a move he suggested was named after someone else in print.  From a bibliographic perspective, it seems that attribution was made in the text of the NIC article, even if that attribution sometimes seems sloppy.  That might be an editorial problem on their end - how many 'fact checkers' does NIC employ, anyway?  So why are we now all concerned with determining who reads what, who has access to what, etc.?

Look, unless I'm sorely mistaken, it's not like Anand or Gelfand are here on this site giving away their secret homebrew.  We're amateurs who love the game and who enjoy the analytical camraderie that can be found here.  Let's not poison the well just because of one incident of bad feelings.
  
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GMTonyKosten
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Re: Guidelines for the use of ChessPub.com analysis
Reply #4 - 05/23/12 at 18:56:16
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brabo wrote on 05/23/12 at 14:38:03:
Maybe we need to block some parts of the forum to unsigned people so we get a better logging of who reads what.

Not only can I block parts of it, but I can can also limit particular boards to certain categories of members (like God Members, say).
  
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brabo
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Re: Guidelines for the use of ChessPub.com analysis
Reply #3 - 05/23/12 at 14:38:03
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Important to notice is that one can from every member know how relevant its membership still is, as tools are available to see the activity on the site. If a member hasn't been active for a long time, it is well possible that you won't get a reply anymore on the email so the IP can be considered from the forum.

I have no issue that unknown people are reading the posts but if these unknown people start to copy parts for commercial profit then I do have. Maybe we need to block some parts of the forum to unsigned people so we get a better logging of who reads what.
« Last Edit: 05/23/12 at 15:43:17 by brabo »  
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GMTonyKosten
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Re: Guidelines for the use of ChessPub.com analysis
Reply #2 - 05/23/12 at 14:03:20
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fling wrote on 05/23/12 at 13:55:03:
First of all, Tony, you do have access to the email for all users, don't you? In that case, it should at least in principal be possible to get access to all users via you. This could be a good start - have it posted clearly somewhere that if you want to use analysis posted here, contact the author(s) via Tony.

Yes, agreed (note that I would never give anyone's name or email without their permission).
  
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fling
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Re: Guidelines for the use of ChessPub.com analysis
Reply #1 - 05/23/12 at 13:55:03
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First of all, Tony, you do have access to the email for all users, don't you? In that case, it should at least in principal be possible to get access to all users via you. This could be a good start - have it posted clearly somewhere that if you want to use analysis posted here, contact the author(s) via Tony.

Another issue is of course what you are allowed to do irrespective of what the guidelines say, i.e. general copyright issues applied to chess analysis. Stefan Bucker seemed to imply that it is clear, that it is protected. Sure, but it still isn't really clear to me. How much can you use from other sources - how many lines can you cite in one article without asking for permission, as many as you want as long as you cite the author or just a few? Compare this to e.g. music, where you can't really have many tones in a row that are the same, or as in software coding.
  
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GMTonyKosten
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Guidelines for the use of ChessPub.com analysis
05/23/12 at 13:45:09
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Let's setup some guidelines for anyone who wishes to use analysis first published on this Forum somewhere else.
  
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